Well, there are enough line Units in the game, 11-13 line Units for every race, + 9 Elite Units for all of the 3 Races, thats not bad.
and im sure that relic will add more line Units in FREE-LC´s or Expansion/DLC´s
Since devs only has to work on 3 races now ,I was expecting dark crusade's numbers for the line units. Plus I feel that some line units are a bit redundant, like having normal scouts and sniper scouts as separate units ,instead of an upgrade.
What I can MAYBE see them doing is adding weapon upgrades to each of those unit variants down the road in either expansions or updates. Like giving a plasma cannon upgrade to the lascannon devastators and/or a veangence round upgrade to the heavy bolter variants. And as per scouts, adding shotguns to the bolter variants and...something else for the snipers, or just keeping the snipers as is.
@Connatic said:
Your asking for a different game, not simple cosmetic changes.
I dont think anything I mentioned above changes the actual gameplay, of course they require efforts to be implemented, however I think it's fair to say that they're only cosmetic changes.
Since devs only has to work on 3 races now ,I was expecting dark crusade's numbers for the line units. Plus I feel that some line units are a bit redundant, like having normal scouts and sniper scouts as separate units ,instead of an upgrade.
Quality instead of Quantity my brother, you are comparing apples with pears.
DC is the second Expansion of DoW1, you better should compare it with vDoW1. Space Marines have 13 "Line" Units with 3 Commanders. Chaos Space Marines11 L-Units with 2 Commanders (but for me a reskin of the SM) Orks 12 L-Units with 2 Commanders, and Eldar with 12L-Units and 2 Commanders. DoW3´s every race has 11-13 Units + 9 ELITE Units, sure you can just use 3 of the Elite Units in the game but that are alot more Units as in vDoW or vDoW2.
@darkyjaz95 said:
Why, because it's a Warhammer game. Not a warhammer skinned generic RTS game.
This statement makes absolutely no sense, it could be a warhammer skinned generic RTS if they wanted it to be that.
Relic are making an RTS based on 40k, that means they can be as faithful to the lore as they want within reason as I believe there is still someone from Games Workshop that checks things over.
The Devs goal should be to make a fun RTS game first and try to fit lore in around that as much as possible without sacrificing gameplay. I would rather they freely experiment with what could potentially make the game more fun than have their hands tied and not be able to try things at all. I am sure they will make mistakes but thats better than not being able to make those mistakes at all.
If an Ork player picks red in army painter, should they get a passive speed boost over those that don't just for the sake of being faithful to the source material? If that were the case, every ork colour scheme would have red in it to take advantage of the bonus.
If Creative Assembly can represent the Warhammer universe faithfully(at least art wise) in their games, why cant relic?
Total War has always been about depicting historical time periods with a lot more realism than your typical RTS game, not saying Total War games are 100% accurate in their realism but its expected to some degree. So Total War Warhammer being more faithful to the setting is not surprising, its an entirely different type of Strategy game with very different mechanics to Dawn of War 3.
Artstyle looks fine to me, especially in some of the higher quality streams I watched where they removed the blue outline on units but I would rather play the game and get a first hand impression of the game overall before passing judgement.
Well, there are enough line Units in the game, 11-13 line Units for every race, + 9 Elite Units for all of the 3 Races, thats not bad.
and im sure that relic will add more line Units in FREE-LC´s or Expansion/DLC´s
Since devs only has to work on 3 races now ,I was expecting dark crusade's numbers for the line units. Plus I feel that some line units are a bit redundant, like having normal scouts and sniper scouts as separate units ,instead of an upgrade.
But you can spam a lot of line units in mid and late game, so I don't see your issue here?
Does it really make a difference for you if you see 2 5-man squads then 1 10-man? Plus, it creates a whole bunch of issues with positioning and maps would HAVE to be much more flat and bland to support that.
In regards to scouts, I can't see your issue, they are clearly 2 very different units with very different battlefield role, abilities and cost efficiency.
For the same reason you have lascannons as separate devastators, for same reason you had plasma cannon devs in DoW2 as separate entity.
@Connatic said:
Cover mechanics are more than cosmetic.
I didn't meant covers as in DOW2, I meant have bubble covers, and maybe some directional covers as well. So like more types of covers.
AKA significant gameplay change as squad control is different and how would directional cover interact with melee units?
That's not a type of something, that's a whole layer of gameplay and map design.
I'll address your other concerns now:
@darkyjaz95 said:
Camera- Free the camera so players could zoom/rotate like in previous DOWs, prob takes changes to no more than a dozen line of codes.
This might be added, but it doesn't add anything to the game or the controls as there is nothing on the maps that would require such thing, making screenshots is exclusive "improvement" on this one.
Voice acting - Get the original VAs back.
>
Purely subjective, I like new voices better, they don't sound like they have all buckets on their heads.
Lore wise- Eg No more exaggerated movements such as flipping terminators, change it to teleporting or something else...
That is lore friendly, you have that in one of the books and terminators there don't even have cybernetic limbs like Gabe does.
Over simplified Bubble shield covers - fixed with more cover types, eg directional covers and etc
Its incomparably more complex then DoW1 cover system.
Cartoonish style - fixed with super detailed unit models, grim dark art style and better/more detailed animations.
You sure you played previous DoW games?
DoW1 had low details.
DoW2 was rainbows and shiny colors.
Super detailed models are exclusive with big armies.
No sync kills - fixed with better and bloody melee animations and quick gruesome death animations like in starcraft 2.
You mean, like the ones there are there at the moment, but you ignored?
Lack of content - more maps/units and a 4th race, like in the old DOWs.
More maps then DoW2 released with.
3 factions, which have more depth and unique mechanics then any of previous ones.
Whats the point of more factions if they add nothing to the story? New factions will come in expansions.
@Katitof said:
But you can spam a lot of line units in mid and late game, so I don't see your issue here?
I'm pretty sure he meant the number of different line units, not the number of squaddies in each unit.
In which case, I really have no idea what does he mean as there were 9 units in DoW1 vs 10 in DoW3(I've excluded heroes and units limited to 1, because if you want to include them, you have to include 9 elites of DoW3 as well).
Unit rooster isn't one of this things where more=better.
RTS with good design usually has 9 to 11 combat units.
Lore wise- Eg No more exaggerated movements such as flipping terminators, change it to teleporting or something else...
That is lore friendly, you have that in one of the books and terminators there don't even have cybernetic limbs like Gabe does.
If you're referring to the C.S. Goto backflipping Terminators, for that book's one instance of acrobatic Terminators, there are plenty of canon descriptions of Terminators as 'lumbering', and the reason all the Marines don't walk around in it besides its scarcity is because it trades off mobility for protection. Not to mention the backflipping Terminators are one of the many reasons Goto is seen as a poor 40k writer (alongside his bizarre fascination with multilasers and habit of making Land Raiders transform into Rhinos and back within a page).
Well, you may like it or not, but that's still a valid fluff as GW published it.
I honestly find it quite amusing how all these "fluff and lore" freaks find it impossible for terminator to backflip, especially one who got cybernetic limbs, is a chapter master and survived being given a bro hug from titan sized Khorne Librarian, but find it perfectly fine for other named characters to even being able to keep up not to mention to beat eldar Exarchs, Avatars of Khaine or daemon princes in 1v1 combat, in melee fight.
You're either sticking to the plain of reality in all of these instances or none.
There is waaaay too much bs going on 40k, especially for SM feats to be picky about cyberneticly enhanced chapter master to flip in terminator armor, but not about ultrasmurf 1st company commander being able to best greater daemons with broken weapons instead of becoming a pile of red goo.
That's plot armor feat right there and compared to what other named space marines did, I seriously doubt that people should be losing their s*it over this then any other LOL SM moment and booooy there were plenty when SM do stuff that makes no sense.
Gabriel being rebuilt is plausible because Space Marines are incredibly resilient and Diomedes got to him reasonably quickly afterwards with a number of Marines, presumably including Apothecaries. Basically the same happened to Marneus Calgar (which is probably where Relic got the idea for cyber-Gabriel in the first place) at the hands of the Swarmlord pre-Battle for Macragge.
The jumping Terminators thing ignores the entire reason Terminator suits are as scarce as they are: they were originally intended to replace power armour entirely, but it hindered movement too greatly and warriors in power armour could easily outmanoeuvre ones in Terminator armour. If every Terminator could backflip as Goto suggests, that reasoning doesn't work. Some fluff states that Marines struggle to so much as_ run_ in Terminator armour, let alone perform mighty leaps.
This is the reason Terminators tend to Deep Strike: because it compensates for their lack of mobility. It's why the common suggestion I've seen for fixing the leap is to have an equally telegraphed teleport (the gameplay reason for the leap is to allow your opponent to react when Gabriel jumps, which a delayed teleport animation with an indicator would preserve), it keeps the intent of the ability (the animation could include a sweep of God-Splitter on arrival to explain the damage and knockback) while making it more lore-friendly. At the very least, teleportation is a known function of Terminator armour.
As I've said before elsewhere, I don't consider the leap a deal-breaker (I'm actually eagerly anticipating the open beta tomorrow so I can finally try the game for myself, because what I've watched and heard from various closed beta streams have me interested in the gameplay), but it's easily one of the most notorious things about the game and has been ever since we first saw it in the gameplay trailer.
Just to put in a tidbit here, regular Assault Terminators do teleport in DoW III, and making Gabriel different from this thus makes him stand out further. This is possibly a factor in why they didn't make Gabriel do the same thing.
@Gorb said:
Just to put in a tidbit here, regular Assault Terminators do teleport in DoW III, and making Gabriel different from this thus makes him stand out further. This is possibly a factor in why they didn't make Gabriel do the same thing.
Actual thing is, Gabriel is a named hero character as well.
If Caito Sicarius was able to 1v1 and win against a greater demon using a broken sword, I can't see how Gabriel wouldn't be able to flip/jump with cybernetic enhancements as they clearly overperform regular legs.
Plot armor is strongest wargear you can have in 40k and they do have it.
I can't see how people believe deep striking in drop pod that suddenly stops on the ground from fall from orbit and its contents aren't scrap and bloody goo, but can't accept powerful AF chapter master to jump.
I like new very simplified, still unique style of Dawn of war 3, but camera rotation/angle change (better from DoW1, where zoom and angles were awesome) is essential, it`s impossible to see the beauty of elites during battle without camera changes.
@Dinovart said:
I like new very simplified, still unique style of Dawn of war 3, but camera rotation/angle change (better from DoW1, where zoom and angles were awesome) is essential, it`s impossible to see the beauty of elites during battle without camera changes.
@Katitof said:
I can't see how people believe deep striking in drop pod that suddenly stops on the ground from fall from orbit and its contents aren't scrap and bloody goo, but can't accept powerful AF chapter master to jump.
(Emphasis mine)
Drop Pods aren't just shot out of a battle barge directly onto the ground, though. They're fairly maneuverable little things so they don't just get shot out of the sky by defense networks. And they brake before hitting the ground, although they don't brake much, granted. They brake enough so that it doesn't turn whatever's inside into paste when it hits the ground.
As far as Gabe's jump, well, I've already argued that into the ground and agree. If you can't forgive it on lore, forgive it on tabletop gameplay. If you can't forgive it on tabletop gameplay, then give it the bloody Rule of Cool exception and if you can't give it any of those exceptions, well, then don't play the bloody game. If you're not buying and playing the game, you have literally no right to kvetch and moan about it.
Also what the heck is with the limited resolution selections.. I have a good rig but the resolutions it gives me are ridiculously low, I cant even go to 1080... standard HD. wtf. they otta add resolution selection thats not dependent on what your monitor "says" it is since sometimes certain ones or TVs will not give this information correctly giving you low res on your desk top yet high res in games, but thats cause they let you set your proper resolution in most games... however DOW 3 only has like 4 options. none of them look right and I can see the effects of my monitor re-scaling to fit that stuff.. and the graphics are ridiculous even when I set on max.
p.s its not all relic though at least on some of the points Ive seen, I gotta understand that its publishers choice on a lot of stuff, and sometimes they dont give devs enough room to polish, enough funds, or credit. Pay to the devs can be set in stone leaving little wiggle room, regardless of how much the game sells sometimes the devs in certain cases can be left lacking motivation due to publishers actions. Ive seen it all before, cant say if thats whats happening here with relic and sega but I wouldn't be surprised if they are not getting quite enough resources and funding. Sega dosnt have the best track record as a publisher since its most recent incarnation. if we are being real. i was surprised alien Isolation did as well as it did. Anyways im not saying certain things are not relics own oversight and stuff they should have thought about since they did some things in DOW 1 so many years ago, I remember I Think dow 1 had complaints about control groups but then later they fixed it but I guess they somehow forgot thats normal RTS common sense functionality. but I respect relic since they made W40k fun in a RTS with DOW 1 but certain glaring issues in DOW 3 keep me from enjoying what could actually be a pretty good or fun game.. Can not overlook aesthetics, or behaviors and options, options, options.
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Comments
Czevak
What I can MAYBE see them doing is adding weapon upgrades to each of those unit variants down the road in either expansions or updates. Like giving a plasma cannon upgrade to the lascannon devastators and/or a veangence round upgrade to the heavy bolter variants. And as per scouts, adding shotguns to the bolter variants and...something else for the snipers, or just keeping the snipers as is.
Connatic
Your asking for a different game, not simple cosmetic changes.
darkyjaz95
I dont think anything I mentioned above changes the actual gameplay, of course they require efforts to be implemented, however I think it's fair to say that they're only cosmetic changes.
Connatic
Cover mechanics are more than cosmetic.
darkyjaz95
I didn't meant covers as in DOW2, I meant have bubble covers, and maybe some directional covers as well. So like more types of covers.
Wa2Magge
Quality instead of Quantity my brother, you are comparing apples with pears.
DC is the second Expansion of DoW1, you better should compare it with vDoW1. Space Marines have 13 "Line" Units with 3 Commanders. Chaos Space Marines11 L-Units with 2 Commanders (but for me a reskin of the SM) Orks 12 L-Units with 2 Commanders, and Eldar with 12L-Units and 2 Commanders. DoW3´s every race has 11-13 Units + 9 ELITE Units, sure you can just use 3 of the Elite Units in the game but that are alot more Units as in vDoW or vDoW2.
ValKor01
This statement makes absolutely no sense, it could be a warhammer skinned generic RTS if they wanted it to be that.
Relic are making an RTS based on 40k, that means they can be as faithful to the lore as they want within reason as I believe there is still someone from Games Workshop that checks things over.
The Devs goal should be to make a fun RTS game first and try to fit lore in around that as much as possible without sacrificing gameplay. I would rather they freely experiment with what could potentially make the game more fun than have their hands tied and not be able to try things at all. I am sure they will make mistakes but thats better than not being able to make those mistakes at all.
If an Ork player picks red in army painter, should they get a passive speed boost over those that don't just for the sake of being faithful to the source material? If that were the case, every ork colour scheme would have red in it to take advantage of the bonus.
Total War has always been about depicting historical time periods with a lot more realism than your typical RTS game, not saying Total War games are 100% accurate in their realism but its expected to some degree. So Total War Warhammer being more faithful to the setting is not surprising, its an entirely different type of Strategy game with very different mechanics to Dawn of War 3.
Artstyle looks fine to me, especially in some of the higher quality streams I watched where they removed the blue outline on units but I would rather play the game and get a first hand impression of the game overall before passing judgement.
Katitof
But you can spam a lot of line units in mid and late game, so I don't see your issue here?
Does it really make a difference for you if you see 2 5-man squads then 1 10-man? Plus, it creates a whole bunch of issues with positioning and maps would HAVE to be much more flat and bland to support that.
In regards to scouts, I can't see your issue, they are clearly 2 very different units with very different battlefield role, abilities and cost efficiency.
For the same reason you have lascannons as separate devastators, for same reason you had plasma cannon devs in DoW2 as separate entity.
Not everything can be solved with upgrade.
Katitof
AKA significant gameplay change as squad control is different and how would directional cover interact with melee units?
That's not a type of something, that's a whole layer of gameplay and map design.
I'll address your other concerns now:
This might be added, but it doesn't add anything to the game or the controls as there is nothing on the maps that would require such thing, making screenshots is exclusive "improvement" on this one.
>
Purely subjective, I like new voices better, they don't sound like they have all buckets on their heads.
That is lore friendly, you have that in one of the books and terminators there don't even have cybernetic limbs like Gabe does.
Its incomparably more complex then DoW1 cover system.
Katitof
You sure you played previous DoW games?
DoW1 had low details.
DoW2 was rainbows and shiny colors.
Super detailed models are exclusive with big armies.
You mean, like the ones there are there at the moment, but you ignored?
More maps then DoW2 released with.
3 factions, which have more depth and unique mechanics then any of previous ones.
Whats the point of more factions if they add nothing to the story? New factions will come in expansions.
Silk
I'm pretty sure he meant the number of different line units, not the number of squaddies in each unit.
Katitof
In which case, I really have no idea what does he mean as there were 9 units in DoW1 vs 10 in DoW3(I've excluded heroes and units limited to 1, because if you want to include them, you have to include 9 elites of DoW3 as well).
Unit rooster isn't one of this things where more=better.
RTS with good design usually has 9 to 11 combat units.
PhantomRevenger
If you're referring to the C.S. Goto backflipping Terminators, for that book's one instance of acrobatic Terminators, there are plenty of canon descriptions of Terminators as 'lumbering', and the reason all the Marines don't walk around in it besides its scarcity is because it trades off mobility for protection. Not to mention the backflipping Terminators are one of the many reasons Goto is seen as a poor 40k writer (alongside his bizarre fascination with multilasers and habit of making Land Raiders transform into Rhinos and back within a page).
KommandantKavu
The Eldar have directional cover.
Katitof
Well, you may like it or not, but that's still a valid fluff as GW published it.
I honestly find it quite amusing how all these "fluff and lore" freaks find it impossible for terminator to backflip, especially one who got cybernetic limbs, is a chapter master and survived being given a bro hug from titan sized Khorne Librarian, but find it perfectly fine for other named characters to even being able to keep up not to mention to beat eldar Exarchs, Avatars of Khaine or daemon princes in 1v1 combat, in melee fight.
You're either sticking to the plain of reality in all of these instances or none.
There is waaaay too much bs going on 40k, especially for SM feats to be picky about cyberneticly enhanced chapter master to flip in terminator armor, but not about ultrasmurf 1st company commander being able to best greater daemons with broken weapons instead of becoming a pile of red goo.
That's plot armor feat right there and compared to what other named space marines did, I seriously doubt that people should be losing their s*it over this then any other LOL SM moment and booooy there were plenty when SM do stuff that makes no sense.
Duster
I'm not paying for new models/VA. That windows gone noobs, you clearly don't follow video game development.
Their job rn is the create ladders and begin expacs, and maybe avoid the issues moving forward.
PhantomRevenger
Gabriel being rebuilt is plausible because Space Marines are incredibly resilient and Diomedes got to him reasonably quickly afterwards with a number of Marines, presumably including Apothecaries. Basically the same happened to Marneus Calgar (which is probably where Relic got the idea for cyber-Gabriel in the first place) at the hands of the Swarmlord pre-Battle for Macragge.
The jumping Terminators thing ignores the entire reason Terminator suits are as scarce as they are: they were originally intended to replace power armour entirely, but it hindered movement too greatly and warriors in power armour could easily outmanoeuvre ones in Terminator armour. If every Terminator could backflip as Goto suggests, that reasoning doesn't work. Some fluff states that Marines struggle to so much as_ run_ in Terminator armour, let alone perform mighty leaps.
This is the reason Terminators tend to Deep Strike: because it compensates for their lack of mobility. It's why the common suggestion I've seen for fixing the leap is to have an equally telegraphed teleport (the gameplay reason for the leap is to allow your opponent to react when Gabriel jumps, which a delayed teleport animation with an indicator would preserve), it keeps the intent of the ability (the animation could include a sweep of God-Splitter on arrival to explain the damage and knockback) while making it more lore-friendly. At the very least, teleportation is a known function of Terminator armour.
As I've said before elsewhere, I don't consider the leap a deal-breaker (I'm actually eagerly anticipating the open beta tomorrow so I can finally try the game for myself, because what I've watched and heard from various closed beta streams have me interested in the gameplay), but it's easily one of the most notorious things about the game and has been ever since we first saw it in the gameplay trailer.
Gorb
Just to put in a tidbit here, regular Assault Terminators do teleport in DoW III, and making Gabriel different from this thus makes him stand out further. This is possibly a factor in why they didn't make Gabriel do the same thing.
Katitof
Actual thing is, Gabriel is a named hero character as well.
If Caito Sicarius was able to 1v1 and win against a greater demon using a broken sword, I can't see how Gabriel wouldn't be able to flip/jump with cybernetic enhancements as they clearly overperform regular legs.
Plot armor is strongest wargear you can have in 40k and they do have it.
I can't see how people believe deep striking in drop pod that suddenly stops on the ground from fall from orbit and its contents aren't scrap and bloody goo, but can't accept powerful AF chapter master to jump.
Navinor
Well most people who are on the hate train right now, do not even KNOW the Warhammer Universe.
They are just hating because it is "cool" to hate. Just look at the comments under the official DoW 3 Trailer.
Most of them are just kids. Yes kids who were not even born back in the days of DoW 1.
And a lot of people played only DoW 2. Not even DoW 1.
There was always tons of ranting before the release of a DoW Title.
A lot of people are Company of Heroes players. DoW 2 was more like Company of Heroes.
But the DoW 1 crowd did not like DoW 2 mostly.
There were even people who considered the Blood Ravens not even a chapter.
Noobert
I wonder how many people here read the WH40K novels or play Table Top.
Dinovart
I like new very simplified, still unique style of Dawn of war 3, but camera rotation/angle change (better from DoW1, where zoom and angles were awesome) is essential, it`s impossible to see the beauty of elites during battle without camera changes.
LeemanRuss
wait for mods after release they will fix this
CheshirePhoenix
(Emphasis mine)
Drop Pods aren't just shot out of a battle barge directly onto the ground, though. They're fairly maneuverable little things so they don't just get shot out of the sky by defense networks. And they brake before hitting the ground, although they don't brake much, granted. They brake enough so that it doesn't turn whatever's inside into paste when it hits the ground.
As far as Gabe's jump, well, I've already argued that into the ground and agree. If you can't forgive it on lore, forgive it on tabletop gameplay. If you can't forgive it on tabletop gameplay, then give it the bloody Rule of Cool exception and if you can't give it any of those exceptions, well, then don't play the bloody game. If you're not buying and playing the game, you have literally no right to kvetch and moan about it.
Katitof
^Well said.
JoeCow
Also what the heck is with the limited resolution selections.. I have a good rig but the resolutions it gives me are ridiculously low, I cant even go to 1080... standard HD. wtf. they otta add resolution selection thats not dependent on what your monitor "says" it is since sometimes certain ones or TVs will not give this information correctly giving you low res on your desk top yet high res in games, but thats cause they let you set your proper resolution in most games... however DOW 3 only has like 4 options. none of them look right and I can see the effects of my monitor re-scaling to fit that stuff.. and the graphics are ridiculous even when I set on max.
p.s its not all relic though at least on some of the points Ive seen, I gotta understand that its publishers choice on a lot of stuff, and sometimes they dont give devs enough room to polish, enough funds, or credit. Pay to the devs can be set in stone leaving little wiggle room, regardless of how much the game sells sometimes the devs in certain cases can be left lacking motivation due to publishers actions. Ive seen it all before, cant say if thats whats happening here with relic and sega but I wouldn't be surprised if they are not getting quite enough resources and funding. Sega dosnt have the best track record as a publisher since its most recent incarnation. if we are being real. i was surprised alien Isolation did as well as it did. Anyways im not saying certain things are not relics own oversight and stuff they should have thought about since they did some things in DOW 1 so many years ago, I remember I Think dow 1 had complaints about control groups but then later they fixed it but I guess they somehow forgot thats normal RTS common sense functionality. but I respect relic since they made W40k fun in a RTS with DOW 1 but certain glaring issues in DOW 3 keep me from enjoying what could actually be a pretty good or fun game.. Can not overlook aesthetics, or behaviors and options, options, options.