Menu
FEEDBACK FROM 30 HOURS OF 1V1 PLAY FROM EXPERIENCED RTS PLAYER
Koof
Hey, so I'm an ex masters SC2 player and overall I'd say I'm capable of playing most games at a high level (masters in overwatch, plat in league, etc). This is not to brag, just want to show I'm capable of thinking about game design and balance at a high level. Anyway here are my biggest complaints:
Balance:
Turrets for all races needs a nerf. 200 requisition shouldn't be capable of stopping harass for the entire early game, especially against ork who dont have a good turret buster till nobs. Solutions for this should either be a significant health reduction or a requisition upgrade. Considering their current state, I'd say 400 requisition would be a good starting point.
Webway gates need a health nerf. Players should be able to punish eldar for mispositioning and giving up map control, however, webway gates are way too tanky to punish in the early game and midgame. These buildings should be fragile, they shouldn't be as tanky as turrets and unit buildings. They should be high risk / high reward buildings if you position them aggressively, atm they are very low risk and very high reward.
Ranger spam needs a significant nerf. This strategy singlehandedly has made the Eldar vs Ork matchup the worst matchup in the game. Ork against a proper player has no chance of winning. For more thoughts on this you can check this reddit post. https://www.reddit.com/r/dawnofwar/comments/676u4k/eldar_rangers_rohahn_is_completely_broken_vs_ork/
Workers need to cost more requisition. It makes no sense that a building unit is 75 requisition. It makes killing them meaningless and it creates this weird strategy dynamic where worker/builder units literally act as a meatshield for your army.... While it is kind of cool in concept, it makes no sense for a strategy game. Workers are workers, they are not soldiers, lets keep them that way. You should be able to punish people for losing workers and killing them should be a detriment to your strategy
Comments
Koof
UI (and related things):
Please for the love of ++heresy redacted++ god make it so double clicking hotkeys sends you to the unit. I forget the term atm, but if i control bind a unit to 1, if i double press 1 i expect to be able to get to that unit instantaneously. This is so important to playing an RTS fast that having this current state where you have to quadruple hit a number to do it is literally physically hurting me. If every single game can do this perfectly, including SC BW, why can't a 2017 RTS?
Equally awful is the inability to control bind my buildings together and shift through them. If SC2 could do this in 2010, why cant DoW do this 7 years later??? This would be so useful and important in this game because of how the macro works and how many control binds you need for units, but instead we get this archaic and awful UI.
Please fix right clicking on turrets/resource nodes. If I right click a listening post it means attack, nothing else. So many times I have my army and right click on resource point and it does nothing because it thinks I'm doing something else? Idk but attack moving/right clicking on resource points is incredibly buggy and not good atm.
Latency needs to be fixed. I got on average 2 sec latency, probably equivalent to 160/180 ping, on this game. I get 40 ping in CS,League,Dota,SC2, Overwatch, pretty much every other game. Why is my DoW ping / input lag so much worse?
Please make it that I can change q binds. Having to press F to delete a building rather than escape hurts my soul. It's 2017, please q bind options.
Koof
Maps need to improve. Considering there are 8 maps, so probably either 3 or 4 1v1 maps, I really hope that all of them are bigger than the current map, which is really just awful to be honest. The reason that my balance complaints are pretty universal (besides rangers who are obviously broken) is because the current map is so narrow, small, and devoid of lines of harass that I can't really judge the game balance whatsoever.
Please add a ready button and a forfeit button. This is an RTS. People dont play to the win condition in RTS's, why are we forced to playing to the win condition in DoW3?
Hopefully this post was useful. Let me know your thoughts if you got any of them. I am an ork player but i believe that everything I said is pretty universal to all races, besides the eldar ranger critique which has been pretty unanimous between players. They need to cost more power / general resources.
GenuineProdigy
What scenario are you describing with turrets? Solo or with units supporting it? If it's the former I'm inclined to disagree as I was able to take them down with 3 starting groups of boyz putting them 200 requisition behind. However, if it's the latter it can be challenging, although why are you just spamming your units recklessly in that situation? Build a Loota and move it up with your army to harass from afar. At most, the buffed turret from SM doctrine can make it a raid boss, however, they are sacrificing a doctrine for it.
Furthermore, yes not being able to rebind your keys is a terrible design idea and yes, there needs to be a forfeit button that isn't at silly as League's. If the game is over, the game is over and players should have to sit around to keep their skulls and elite experience.
g0dAr1es
Coming from an extensive ork only player: Turrets (besides the SM doctrine one) are easy to take down as ork with ork boyz. Also tank bustas kill turrents just fine and you get them sooner than nobs.
Still didnt have to much problem with the webway either. Ork boyz with shout is more than enough to take them out quickly. Maybe I am not seeing how fast other races can do it.
In my 1v1 matches against eldar as ork I only had problem with rangers a few times. I played defensive with ork trukk with the tractor beam used the weird boy to clear squads. Also Killa Kan with the Missle doctrine helped a lot.
aWildUPSMan
I disagree with the turret comment immensely. 200 req early game, particularly for a marine players for example is a huge early game investment. Their purpose is to be a fortification that can also fight back a little until your army can deal with the enemy attacking it. They can be mowed down pretty easily by early game units so I really don't see what the issue is. They are working as intended.
kickinleg
I agree on all the UI Feedback wholeheartedly, regarding balance, I think it's simply too early to tell. Give it a few weeks at least. ^^
Creature
Definitely think 400 is way too much for a turret. Is the intention for them to not be used at all early game? If that's the intention, then that would do it! Your army would be so diminished you'd lose the rest of the map if you built one of those.
And turrets aren't as useful late game, so I feel like this suggestion would make them a poor option most of the time.
If they're too strong, I'd rather see their health reduced or else give certain units a bonus to damage against buildings or something.
Roibr
Map Editor is Officially Stated!
raviel
latency/ping is measured in 1/1000 of a second. so 2 second latency = 2000 ping not 200,
other than that very good feedback.
i'm not sure about turrents nerf other than that i could agree with everything.
Koof
3 ork boyz squads (with waagh) vs 1 marine squad and turret is a decisive victory for SM. 2 ork boyz (600 requisition) cant kill an uncontested turret without sustaining heavy losses and taking a significant amount of time to do so. Its more price efficient for the SM to have their turret die than it is for the ork when you consider map control and reinforce
GenuineProdigy
You're specifying SM. Are you referring to the doctrine boosted SM turret? If that's the case, shouldn't you be calling for a doctrine nerf and not a overall turret nerf?
aWildUPSMan
Yesterday I was rushed by three 'Boyz' squads under the Waaaggh tower buff. Two focused the turret while one harassed both of my tac squads which I'd micro retreat and attack move but he kept alternating enough to take down the turret, take the point then also shove a tower down at the point he just took, making a counter attack impossible for me anytime soon. Maybe you're not using Orks correctly?
Koof
yes 3 ork squads (900 requisition) with a 240 sec cd should be able to take down a listening post and a worker (275). The problem is 1 marine squad and that turret against the same combination would beat the orks decisively. What's worse is that 2 ork squads (600 requisition) actually lose enough units that its not cost efficient to harass against a single turret, which to me doesn't make sense.
Maybe its the current map pool, but when you only really have to defend 2 points that are not far away (far right and one of the middle ones), 200 requisition is just far too strong and buys too much time against harass.
aWildUPSMan
I think this issue is more how you use your units and micro than the marine player being better. One tac squad can't do much against 3 boyz.
Deathbringer
I second all the UI related improvements! Please change / add this as it will make the game even more awesome than now
PiggiesGoMoo
These two paragraphs of your post unintentionally explain why you see rangers as being OP versus ork. If you are not using melee gretchen against rangers, you're doing it wrong. They are your detectors, they are fast, and they can easily occupy rangers. And they only cost 50 requisition. Quit thinking about them as mere "workers", this isn't starcraft 2.
Jestersheepy
After playing 15 hours, mainly as eldar, I have to disagree, with almost everything here. Comparing a turret cost to some troops doesn't take into account the exposed nature of construction and how long it takes, if you are concerned with a certain point then you have more than enough time to prevent a turret from going up.
200 is also quite a large investment as that is 'almost' another squad, also anything other than SM (w/ doctrine) are actually quite weak.
I think buildings in general need a little look over, there isn't much negatives for building forward bases and using them as meatshields/walls considering their low cost, I wouldn't single out a webway gate specifically with this, they all need a look at.
If you check out the damage numbers, the rangers are fine, they do fairly low damage and have to be massed up to do anything decent, even then most units shred them.
So yeah, disagreed, mostly.
LikeIce
ESL showed us both SM and orks able to handle rangers spam.
Only the Eldar vs Eldar can get a bit ugly.
aWildUPSMan
Has anyone got a link to the ESL games? I missed them unfortunately.
Silk
@aWildUPSMan
- Trojan (2nd place). SM
- Manawtf (lost in semifinal to Trojan). ORK
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQ9Q2XYaJn0G3zhur5J87WQ/videos - n0ave aka RTS Cult (lost in semifinal to tourney winner). Eldar
brackets https://play.eslgaming.com/dawnofwar/europe/dow3/open/1on1-open-beta-cup-1-europe/rankings/
All credit to @Nayas from this thread.
KPMaker
Nice job Silk.
Zaphys
Very good feedback! Relic pls...UI in 2017
Silk
As I said it's not my job but @Nayas ', I merely copy-pasted.
Pectoralex
Man, we played 3 days, it's impossible that we know what is really broken or not (well, macha is op xD) lets wait a little bit before calling for balance changes. And never saw the strategy of using workers as meatshield xDDD not even in the tournament.
CleanAndClear
I completely agree, I will make a separate post about it cause it deserves discussion.
As for Rangers, I would make sniper units in general do less damage to buildings. These two changes in combination would make sniper spam in Eldar mirror less viable, cause you could punish sniper spamming early with destroying his webway gate(s).
Also, someone suggested snipers could have a forced reload time after firing when they can't move, or unsetup time, that would be a good nerf. I'm against nerfing their general DPS, that could make them useless.
Fortune
@Koof I also disagree with virtually everything you say, the "Turrets" as you call them (or Listening Posts) can be taken out easily from range, since they require LoS to shoot back. Zappnoggin, Macha, Librarian are a few heroes that can peck away at an LP and suffer zero damage.
Also Vypers, Deff Koptas and Land Speeders are basically designed to do resource harassment.
Xajmai
@koof I just watched a game where you played against Eldar. You were out of position on several occasions but still managed to beat the ++heresy redacted++ out of that Eldar player. Tell me again why all races except orks need a nerf?