I probably have been lucky with Eldar so far, because most Eldar I play don't spam Rangers so I win like 50%. But I have absolutely no idea what to do vs. Orks as SM, I lose 90% of games. Our opening units are focused too much on ranged and they can't do decent damage vs. Ork so it's hard to kite. Melee has a big advantage in this game as they can suppress and surround units, when ranged can't do jack about it. They are too many and get map control too quick on the map available for beta. I tried countering Waaagh with Banner, I got crushed... Even when fighting near the production building, Ork reinforce too fast, but when fight is happening near my buildings, they pick me off real quick. Tried different approach, ASM spam without solid ranged support getting wrecked, but I don't have enough resources for sustaining both.
@n0ave_ said:
Eldar is way to strong at hit and run tactics. Also they don't bleed because of their shield mechanism.
The shield system should be removed from all the line units. Only keep it on some units like falcon would be better.
Hit and run tactics is what the faction was designed for.
They can't do sustain fights, because the moment shields deplete, squads explode into a red pulp.
@Stoner said:
I probably have been lucky with Eldar so far, because most Eldar I play don't spam Rangers so I win like 50%. But I have absolutely no idea what to do vs. Orks as SM, I lose 90% of games. Our opening units are focused too much on ranged and they can't do decent damage vs. Ork so it's hard to kite. Melee has a big advantage in this game as they can suppress and surround units, when ranged can't do jack about it. They are too many and get map control too quick on the map available for beta. I tried countering Waaagh with Banner, I got crushed... Even when fighting near the production building, Ork reinforce too fast, but when fight is happening near my buildings, they pick me off real quick. Tried different approach, ASM spam without solid ranged support getting wrecked, but I don't have enough resources for sustaining both.
Early game vs. Ork is pretty tough. You really need to utilize your tools well and pick your battles. A plasma on a tactical squad is a good answer to weird boy. Flamethrower a good answer to boyz. Assault marine a good answer to lootas.
You can probably win first engagement using tactical, a drop pod, and banner. After that you will be on the back foot for awhile and try not to lose too much ground as you work to get the answers you need. When you have the right mix up, you can recover a lot of ground and maybe end the game out right if they aren't careful.
@n0ave_ said:
Eldar is way to strong at hit and run tactics. Also they don't bleed because of their shield mechanism.
The shield system should be removed from all the line units. Only keep it on some units like falcon would be better.
It ties into their low base health, and is a faction-wide design (like Drop Pods); this suggestion should only be a last resort.
My suggestion would be to make it deplete faster, but recharge faster. This encourages actual hit-and-run tactics without making squads too strong in a protracted fight, particularly in T1 when pacing is key.
@n0ave_ said:
Eldar is way to strong at hit and run tactics. Also they don't bleed because of their shield mechanism.
The shield system should be removed from all the line units. Only keep it on some units like falcon would be better.
It ties into their low base health, and is a faction-wide design (like Drop Pods); this suggestion should only be a last resort.
My suggestion would be to make it deplete faster, but recharge faster. This encourages actual hit-and-run tactics without making squads too strong in a protracted fight, particularly in T1 when pacing is key.
For once I agree. Removing shield from all line units would be too radical, but make them less durable and recharge quicker out of combat is certainly a good idea. Also, as I suggested before, removing shields from units with cloak would make at least Rangers less annoying.
My usual combo is: scout from invis throws stun nade. Like 90% of time opponent doesn't evade, on stunned squad I drop pod with ASM and by that time I either have another ASM or snipers, so enemy mostly lose that squad. If I can cripple Eldar or SM with this, it doesn't even slow down Ork, he runs at me with 3-4 more fresh squads, and I have really hard time doing any considerable damage or fighting back. Map control is a big issue with them in particular, they take points and build way too quickly in comparison to any other races I have played against. Going after buildings with turrets early on is very risky. Btw, what about heavy bolters?
So for now that whining about "broken balance" seems nothing more than chicken's clucking. There is no stable meta and BTW for now I have something around 90% winrate by SM against Orks or Eldar, even if I use completely different tactics. There are so many answers to everything, so as I think, the game is balanced pretty well, but again - there is no stable meta, there are only few Elites and Doctrines at the roster, so there are no real purposes to discuss the balance. Only issues which must be fixed in my opinion are:
1. Fire Prism. Too low damage, too low HP, too big cost. It's absolutely broken and unuseful.
2. Strange unit abilities triggering. Especially about mass ASM jump. I recognize, that looks COOOOOL, when all of your assaults are jumping together, but in case of multiplayer gameplay, that will be much better if that skill would work as the TSM or Dire Avenger's grenades: 1 click = 1 squad.
3. CUSTOM KEYBINDING!!! (That is the thing, about which I'm most dissapointed).
^^ HOLY. CUSTOM KEYBINDINGS PLEASE GOD. I can't tell you how ****ing frustrated I was when I found out I couldn't change keybindings. I use caps lock for discord because caps lock is a useless key and all. Guess what. It selects ALL your units. Talk to my friend in discord + click = my whole army plus builders running to where I just clicked ; (
I think SM early game is pretty pitiful. Only chance I have against a good eldar or ork is the deathwatch squad and they are useless late game. Hopefully there is another early game elite that we haven't seen yet that will change things up.
@xrmicah said:
I think SM early game is pretty pitiful. Only chance I have against a good eldar or ork is the deathwatch squad and they are useless late game. Hopefully there is another early game elite that we haven't seen yet that will change things up.
Not sure why you consider Deathwatch squad to be useless in late game. They rocket launcher is awesome, and by playing them you get a huge advantage early game and you can take a good chunk of the map.
Played probably a total of 40 hours roughly 40 games total spread across each race.. won probably 90% of my matches on Eldar, Ork, and SM.. All about that micro game early and macro game late. -- Toughest thing right now is unit spam, such as rangers.. But it's feasible to still win.
Hia Noave, so i assume you won that open beta cup:)?
Anyway, after watching your games i get the feeling that range spam is the biggest issue.
What are your suggestions for balancing the eldar race?
I kinda like Gorbs suggestion about the shield, but i don't know about the rangers. The spam was real in DoW 2 as well, but then you got out a early vehicle and killed them off in base:)
Arent the vehicles pretty weak as well?
About space marines, slightly lower cost on TSM or health increase... or my favorite perhaps make it lore friendly and give them a auto heal triggerable ability. (Heals for 30 seconds as if they were at base...perhaps)
He didn't won, he lost on the semi-finals.
Winner was Risum, who won against Trojan. n0ave_ is 3rd (and sharing his place with Manawtf as long as they don't make a third-place play-off I guess? ).
@xrmicah said:
^^ HOLY. CUSTOM KEYBINDINGS PLEASE GOD. I can't tell you how ****ing frustrated I was when I found out I couldn't change keybindings. I use caps lock for discord because caps lock is a useless key and all. Guess what. It selects ALL your units. Talk to my friend in discord + click = my whole army plus builders running to where I just clicked ; (
Caps Lock has been my PTT key for as long as I can remember, and this was REALLY messing me up as well.
Tactical Marines are the weakest and most expensive starting units. They are designed to be that way. Facing an aggressive opponent, you really only have four (five if you are lucky) starting options available to you.
1 - Purchase another set of Tactical Marines
2 - Purchase a Assault Marine Squad
3 - Purchase a Devastator Squad
4 - Purchase a armory and upgrade your Tactical Marines to Flamers and/or Plasmas
5 - If you are lucky enough to get a Listening Post up, this can win the fight early game.
Currently this is really the only way to push back against early aggression and fighting over points since Scout Snipers do not do enough damage until there are a few of them on the field. Now if you completely ignore the enemy early and manage to get your Tactical Marines to all be armed with Plasmas or Flamers, well then, that's a completely different story because those Tactical Marines go from being the weakest starting units to the best in the span of 100 Resources and 65 Power.
Nope, don't agree at all , the more I read the more I am seeing a trend of fighting defensively. That's all right but you gotta take some risks to get an advantage. Example would be hiding Tactical SM squad in fog or hiding waiting for them to hit and run so you can cut off the escape route. This is by far my most successful tactic against Eldar and killing 1 squad screws up their ECO build/ firepower management.
I always keep all my SM units split up for counter ambush unless I put a devastator squad somewhere to defend a point on their own. When playing against Eldar in 1v1, just keep in mind if you kill one of their first infantry( I always do with assault marines) their firepower takes a crippling blow early game especially if they are going an heavy infantry non sniper build.
I suggest Deathwatch and Jonah since they can slow and wall of entire armies for AOE attacks. Their is nothing more satisfying than Jonah walling off 3 or more units and having 2-3 assault marine squads go ham on them. Really, give Jonah a chance, think about what his abilities do on a basic level.
Jonah is probably the best Elite unit. He autos as hard as macha, every skill you use speeds his AA up. His first ability can speed up your units, his second stops other units from firing while boosting the DMG of yours, and he has a giant wall that can stop a fight or baby cage an enemy army. He is an instant WAAAGH tower with a walling ability.
Also, do not forget to build the GD land speeder. Wrecks infantry quick! and can outrun anything. I got behind a couple times playing Eldar just because I forgot about it.
You may not be able to spot an Elite and be able counter them Immediately or an ambush and have time and units to properly defend a point, but thats how this game works. Thinking ahead in what if scenarios is key. Thinking 2 steps ahead reactively instead of throwing your units into a fight at the first sight of a battle will enable you to make more decisive and clear decisions later and will let you think 4-6 steps ahead more clearly later.
I thought the same thing game 1 of using SM. After that was all about "Let me just try and make risky plays to win or lose early" Lost every time. But I got a great deal of knowledge from it and stated to laugh at how bad I would beat people later.
Also, my favorite thing as Eldar is using the stealth banshee upgrade and running from stealth area to stealth area finding units to pick off.
Yeah i kinda agree. It is way to early to judge balance:)
But one can always discuss perceived imbalances and find counters... or come to the conclusion that a change is needed.
just checked those games E vs SM RO4. Rangers are strong yes. However in the second game, where Eldar(Noave) didnt go ranger spam, then SM(Risum) didnt seem weak. Hard to judge since player skill, map etc also is a factor.
I would even say that sniper spam is the potential issue, and even more so against Eldar. Be it in EvE or SMvE since Eldar units have less HP.
@Larkis said:
So sombody with Experience von the closes betas, play against Newcomer and win all the time.... SURPRISE!!!!
You are missing the point. The game is poorly balanced and in it`s current state is Eldar favored.
I am not sure after the last Sunday with the SM mirror final.
I still consider Eldar to be strong at low to average skill. At high level things become more balanced.
I have rewatched the replay vs Risum and I saw how poorly I played. After he lost his 2 ASMs I could have taken back the map control. I just needed to get at least one listening post at the 2 req 1 energy point. I ended up investing way too much into generators and I also had a low income because of his harass.
Well, you may expect after a couple of games and expansions, Relic may have finally learned not to make Eldar OP, it's like they only learned the wrong lessons while keeping the bad ones. I strongly suggest you keep your money for other 40k games or the tabletop, Games Workshop have been doing a great job at reforming its policies, improving the gameplay and making the tabletop game more accessible for newcomers, Relic? Not so much.
Sorry, but to say SM is good in dow2 or even playable is a liethat shows that you have no idea about what are you talking about.
Why wouldn't they be? Especially now.
Sure on release tyranids and orks may have been stronger. I remember top 10 1v1 had 2 korean eldar players 5 tyranids some orks and 1 space marine when i played the most. There was alot space marines in top 20 and they were all crying to nerf eldar. 3rd best eldar was like top 100 or something.
As far as i remember space marines always were in better state than eldar, sure some koreans could outplay their opponent's so bad that they actually won with eldar in the competitive scene but they were quite alot underpowered, they still are.
Just a few months ago, when i came back to retribution, space marines and chaos seemed the most popular in DoW2 still,
I even played them a little and most of the time my opponents just dropped. Even some dudes with 1000+ hours played among them. Sure i had little chance against players with 2000+ hours but they were actually good, so i don't see much problem with that.
I haven't played elite as it seemed bad, but i think it was made by caeltos who was a top space marine player when there still was ranked,
I really doubt he would make space marines unplayable there.
I found SM To be very effective and best balanced race you can choose from good range combat to excelent melee combat units, i prefer cybots in dropoods in mid/late game.
I dont know i think there should be also looked @skill of the players befor judging that a race is op against another.
@Larkis said:
So sombody with Experience von the closes betas, play against Newcomer and win all the time.... SURPRISE!!!!
You are missing the point. The game is poorly balanced and in it`s current state is Eldar favored.
I am not sure after the last Sunday with the SM mirror final.
I still consider Eldar to be strong at low to average skill. At high level things become more balanced.
I have rewatched the replay vs Risum and I saw how poorly I played. After he lost his 2 ASMs I could have taken back the map control. I just needed to get at least one listening post at the 2 req 1 energy point. I ended up investing way too much into generators and I also had a low income because of his harass.
So where is the problem?
No sane developer will ever balance the game with anything less then top skill level on mind.
For what reason would developer touch balance where player still has a huuge way to go himself and improve?
Also I don't think SM is UP since the esl open beta tournamnt finals consisted of SM vs SM ASM SPAM NODE GRABBING SERVITORS.
what relic needs to do is improve the unit variety and each race's internal balance so every unit is viable, or has at least a niche use.
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Comments
Stoner
I probably have been lucky with Eldar so far, because most Eldar I play don't spam Rangers so I win like 50%. But I have absolutely no idea what to do vs. Orks as SM, I lose 90% of games. Our opening units are focused too much on ranged and they can't do decent damage vs. Ork so it's hard to kite. Melee has a big advantage in this game as they can suppress and surround units, when ranged can't do jack about it. They are too many and get map control too quick on the map available for beta. I tried countering Waaagh with Banner, I got crushed... Even when fighting near the production building, Ork reinforce too fast, but when fight is happening near my buildings, they pick me off real quick. Tried different approach, ASM spam without solid ranged support getting wrecked, but I don't have enough resources for sustaining both.
n0ave_
Eldar is way to strong at hit and run tactics. Also they don't bleed because of their shield mechanism.
The shield system should be removed from all the line units. Only keep it on some units like falcon would be better.
Katitof
Hit and run tactics is what the faction was designed for.
They can't do sustain fights, because the moment shields deplete, squads explode into a red pulp.
Creature
Early game vs. Ork is pretty tough. You really need to utilize your tools well and pick your battles. A plasma on a tactical squad is a good answer to weird boy. Flamethrower a good answer to boyz. Assault marine a good answer to lootas.
You can probably win first engagement using tactical, a drop pod, and banner. After that you will be on the back foot for awhile and try not to lose too much ground as you work to get the answers you need. When you have the right mix up, you can recover a lot of ground and maybe end the game out right if they aren't careful.
Gorb
It ties into their low base health, and is a faction-wide design (like Drop Pods); this suggestion should only be a last resort.
My suggestion would be to make it deplete faster, but recharge faster. This encourages actual hit-and-run tactics without making squads too strong in a protracted fight, particularly in T1 when pacing is key.
Stoner
For once I agree. Removing shield from all line units would be too radical, but make them less durable and recharge quicker out of combat is certainly a good idea. Also, as I suggested before, removing shields from units with cloak would make at least Rangers less annoying.
My usual combo is: scout from invis throws stun nade. Like 90% of time opponent doesn't evade, on stunned squad I drop pod with ASM and by that time I either have another ASM or snipers, so enemy mostly lose that squad. If I can cripple Eldar or SM with this, it doesn't even slow down Ork, he runs at me with 3-4 more fresh squads, and I have really hard time doing any considerable damage or fighting back. Map control is a big issue with them in particular, they take points and build way too quickly in comparison to any other races I have played against. Going after buildings with turrets early on is very risky. Btw, what about heavy bolters?
Grighoul
So for now that whining about "broken balance" seems nothing more than chicken's clucking. There is no stable meta and BTW for now I have something around 90% winrate by SM against Orks or Eldar, even if I use completely different tactics. There are so many answers to everything, so as I think, the game is balanced pretty well, but again - there is no stable meta, there are only few Elites and Doctrines at the roster, so there are no real purposes to discuss the balance. Only issues which must be fixed in my opinion are:
1. Fire Prism. Too low damage, too low HP, too big cost. It's absolutely broken and unuseful.
2. Strange unit abilities triggering. Especially about mass ASM jump. I recognize, that looks COOOOOL, when all of your assaults are jumping together, but in case of multiplayer gameplay, that will be much better if that skill would work as the TSM or Dire Avenger's grenades: 1 click = 1 squad.
3. CUSTOM KEYBINDING!!! (That is the thing, about which I'm most dissapointed).
xrmicah
^^ HOLY. CUSTOM KEYBINDINGS PLEASE GOD. I can't tell you how ****ing frustrated I was when I found out I couldn't change keybindings. I use caps lock for discord because caps lock is a useless key and all. Guess what. It selects ALL your units. Talk to my friend in discord + click = my whole army plus builders running to where I just clicked ; (
xrmicah
I think SM early game is pretty pitiful. Only chance I have against a good eldar or ork is the deathwatch squad and they are useless late game. Hopefully there is another early game elite that we haven't seen yet that will change things up.
n0ave_
Not sure why you consider Deathwatch squad to be useless in late game. They rocket launcher is awesome, and by playing them you get a huge advantage early game and you can take a good chunk of the map.
KommandantKavu
Played probably a total of 40 hours roughly 40 games total spread across each race.. won probably 90% of my matches on Eldar, Ork, and SM.. All about that micro game early and macro game late. -- Toughest thing right now is unit spam, such as rangers.. But it's feasible to still win.
Bambilambi
Hia Noave, so i assume you won that open beta cup:)?
Anyway, after watching your games i get the feeling that range spam is the biggest issue.
What are your suggestions for balancing the eldar race?
I kinda like Gorbs suggestion about the shield, but i don't know about the rangers. The spam was real in DoW 2 as well, but then you got out a early vehicle and killed them off in base:)
Arent the vehicles pretty weak as well?
About space marines, slightly lower cost on TSM or health increase... or my favorite perhaps make it lore friendly and give them a auto heal triggerable ability. (Heals for 30 seconds as if they were at base...perhaps)
Silk
He didn't won, he lost on the semi-finals.
).
Winner was Risum, who won against Trojan. n0ave_ is 3rd (and sharing his place with Manawtf as long as they don't make a third-place play-off I guess?
Leeroy1986
Yeah he uploaded his game against Risum on his YouTube channel, it was very impressive!
beradical
Caps Lock has been my PTT key for as long as I can remember, and this was REALLY messing me up as well.
Noobert
Tactical Marines are the weakest and most expensive starting units. They are designed to be that way. Facing an aggressive opponent, you really only have four (five if you are lucky) starting options available to you.
1 - Purchase another set of Tactical Marines
2 - Purchase a Assault Marine Squad
3 - Purchase a Devastator Squad
4 - Purchase a armory and upgrade your Tactical Marines to Flamers and/or Plasmas
5 - If you are lucky enough to get a Listening Post up, this can win the fight early game.
Currently this is really the only way to push back against early aggression and fighting over points since Scout Snipers do not do enough damage until there are a few of them on the field. Now if you completely ignore the enemy early and manage to get your Tactical Marines to all be armed with Plasmas or Flamers, well then, that's a completely different story because those Tactical Marines go from being the weakest starting units to the best in the span of 100 Resources and 65 Power.
Xclusive
Nope, don't agree at all , the more I read the more I am seeing a trend of fighting defensively. That's all right but you gotta take some risks to get an advantage. Example would be hiding Tactical SM squad in fog or hiding waiting for them to hit and run so you can cut off the escape route. This is by far my most successful tactic against Eldar and killing 1 squad screws up their ECO build/ firepower management.
I always keep all my SM units split up for counter ambush unless I put a devastator squad somewhere to defend a point on their own. When playing against Eldar in 1v1, just keep in mind if you kill one of their first infantry( I always do with assault marines) their firepower takes a crippling blow early game especially if they are going an heavy infantry non sniper build.
I suggest Deathwatch and Jonah since they can slow and wall of entire armies for AOE attacks. Their is nothing more satisfying than Jonah walling off 3 or more units and having 2-3 assault marine squads go ham on them. Really, give Jonah a chance, think about what his abilities do on a basic level.
Jonah is probably the best Elite unit. He autos as hard as macha, every skill you use speeds his AA up. His first ability can speed up your units, his second stops other units from firing while boosting the DMG of yours, and he has a giant wall that can stop a fight or baby cage an enemy army. He is an instant WAAAGH tower with a walling ability.
Also, do not forget to build the GD land speeder. Wrecks infantry quick! and can outrun anything. I got behind a couple times playing Eldar just because I forgot about it.
You may not be able to spot an Elite and be able counter them Immediately or an ambush and have time and units to properly defend a point, but thats how this game works. Thinking ahead in what if scenarios is key. Thinking 2 steps ahead reactively instead of throwing your units into a fight at the first sight of a battle will enable you to make more decisive and clear decisions later and will let you think 4-6 steps ahead more clearly later.
I thought the same thing game 1 of using SM. After that was all about "Let me just try and make risky plays to win or lose early" Lost every time. But I got a great deal of knowledge from it and stated to laugh at how bad I would beat people later.
Also, my favorite thing as Eldar is using the stealth banshee upgrade and running from stealth area to stealth area finding units to pick off.
Estalibar
Because three days and limited Elite/doctrine use is enough to judge the balance of the game...Logic. You guys are funny.
Bambilambi
Yeah i kinda agree. It is way to early to judge balance:)
But one can always discuss perceived imbalances and find counters... or come to the conclusion that a change is needed.
just checked those games E vs SM RO4. Rangers are strong yes. However in the second game, where Eldar(Noave) didnt go ranger spam, then SM(Risum) didnt seem weak. Hard to judge since player skill, map etc also is a factor.
I would even say that sniper spam is the potential issue, and even more so against Eldar. Be it in EvE or SMvE since Eldar units have less HP.
n0ave_
I still consider Eldar to be strong at low to average skill. At high level things become more balanced.
I have rewatched the replay vs Risum and I saw how poorly I played. After he lost his 2 ASMs I could have taken back the map control. I just needed to get at least one listening post at the 2 req 1 energy point. I ended up investing way too much into generators and I also had a low income because of his harass.
McNash
Well, you may expect after a couple of games and expansions, Relic may have finally learned not to make Eldar OP, it's like they only learned the wrong lessons while keeping the bad ones. I strongly suggest you keep your money for other 40k games or the tabletop, Games Workshop have been doing a great job at reforming its policies, improving the gameplay and making the tabletop game more accessible for newcomers, Relic? Not so much.
raviel
Why wouldn't they be? Especially now.
Sure on release tyranids and orks may have been stronger. I remember top 10 1v1 had 2 korean eldar players 5 tyranids some orks and 1 space marine when i played the most. There was alot space marines in top 20 and they were all crying to nerf eldar. 3rd best eldar was like top 100 or something.
As far as i remember space marines always were in better state than eldar, sure some koreans could outplay their opponent's so bad that they actually won with eldar in the competitive scene but they were quite alot underpowered, they still are.
Just a few months ago, when i came back to retribution, space marines and chaos seemed the most popular in DoW2 still,
I even played them a little and most of the time my opponents just dropped. Even some dudes with 1000+ hours played among them. Sure i had little chance against players with 2000+ hours but they were actually good, so i don't see much problem with that.
I haven't played elite as it seemed bad, but i think it was made by caeltos who was a top space marine player when there still was ranked,
I really doubt he would make space marines unplayable there.
So not sure where you get your information from.
n3cron
I found SM To be very effective and best balanced race you can choose from good range combat to excelent melee combat units, i prefer cybots in dropoods in mid/late game.
I dont know i think there should be also looked @skill of the players befor judging that a race is op against another.
Sascas
LMAO @raviel git gud
Katitof
So where is the problem?
No sane developer will ever balance the game with anything less then top skill level on mind.
For what reason would developer touch balance where player still has a huuge way to go himself and improve?
Sascas
Also I don't think SM is UP since the esl open beta tournamnt finals consisted of SM vs SM ASM SPAM NODE GRABBING SERVITORS.
what relic needs to do is improve the unit variety and each race's internal balance so every unit is viable, or has at least a niche use.