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Wraithlord Level 8 Army Doctrine
3 years ago
HyperHysteria
The Wraithknights level 8 army doctrine seems way too strong to not have? Pretty much any Eldar VS Eldar match, where one player has the doctrine unlocked and the other doesn't, makes the player without the doctrine have almost no presence in the early game, and just ends up allowing the player with the doctrine to snowball way too hard. Is there any advice I can take for going against players using the doctrine, without using it myself?
Edit: I meant the Wraithlord, and I didn't realize you only need to have him in your elite loadout for the elite doctrine to work, as well as only needing him to be Level 3 to be able to use it. Sorry.
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Fortune
Oh hey Hyper, we played a 1v1 a few hours ago.
I sent you a Steam friends request!
And yes I agree. This doctrine is far too good and it offers no drawbacks.
I feel that any doctrines that are this strong need to come with some kind of disadvantage. I'd like T1 fast-warping Webway gates to be very fragile and to then become tougher with T3. Then I'd like non-Doctrined Webway gates to be sturdier in comparison, it would then become a choice of two alternatives, not default and the unquestionably better in every way ever.
Fortune
Bump.
As for tips going against it, I'm afraid I have very little to offer you.
Anything that can deal with the Webway gate doesn't kill it fast enough for it to warp out again (this takes only 3 seconds!)
The only possible hope I can offer is to either go for a very fast T2 with Wraithguard, but this is challenging. In theory it should work, but anyone who is good AND uses this doctrine will just pressure your eco too hard for you to afford teching.
Perhaps Warp Spiders to plant mines on chokes in the mid-game so you can punish an engagement?
There is also a Ranger doctrine called "Ranger Focus" which gives your Rangers exceptional line of sight.
The issue with the Webway doctrine is that it can be extremely aggressive. In theory therefore you should be defensive, since you do not have the mobility to compete with the enemy's aggression, but.
Well. Speaking as someone who has to play against people like Cataclaw and VindicareX on an almost daily basis, I've given up not using this doctrine. What little chance I have against well-played Eldar I lose if I do not have this doctrine to depend upon.
Silveran
Being honest I thought I was a decent player and I thought this was good just in general using it somewhat sparingly to move a single webway around some in T1 along the autoheal was great. I then played against a player who truly knew how to use it...blew my mind. I never thought about building the Webway as my 1st building til playing against someone truly abusing the Doctrine and I now plan to do this every game. Somehow out of 30+ games I had never seen a player do this once.
Fortune
I recognize your name. It wasn't me, was it?
Silveran
Na, it was someone by the name of JekkuJere.
Fortune
Boo.
I'm pretty sure we've played too though.
Kharneth
I'm glad to hear it's very powerful because I've been towards it and love the Wraithlord with all his wraithbuddies. Maybe it's more powerful than it should be, I can't comment. But every single doctrine is an option that is more powerful than the default. Doctrines are not play style alterations that don't enhance you but merely change your units. Every single doctrine is better than the default. This doctrine may be better under all circumstances, making it a go-to doctrine, and it may be more powerful than it should be, but it most certainly should not be balanced in such a way that it's more of a choice of play style. It should clearly be superior than a non-doctrine webway.
Silveran
Has anyone noticed there is a MASSIVE difference between using the wraithlord with doctrine vs equipping the doctrine? Like when I equip the doctrine itself (as to not use wraithlord) my webway warp has a 90s cd?
Silveran
So ya. I think its just glitched and the ACTUAL doctrine is when you have just it equipped as an army doctrine. I wonder if any others stack......oh boy.
Wraithlord w/ doctrine - 2s to warp, 10s til re-warp available
No Wraithlord, just army doctrine - 6s to warp, 50s til re-warp available
Wraithlord w/o doctrine, but equipping doctrine - 6s to warp, 50s til re-warp available
Wraith w/ doctrine, also equipping army doctrine - ALL INSTANT OMG WTF
Vodacce
Huh oO
Pretty interesting and ... worrisome stuff here. I hope it get fixed as soon as possible, may be it'll make people less agnry about eldars haha.
6 sec to relocate seem fair but 50 sec CD on warp would be a huge change. It'll force to have at least one more webway gate, meaning more micro, less available control group. Having to spend more energy in gates mean later upgrade too.
kickinleg
This doctrine is way way wayyyyy overpowered and likely gonna be nerfed as one of the first things. It makes ork vs eldar early game a joke that forces or to basically turtle on one node. ^^
The CD on the relocate needs to be heavily increased, to at least 40s.
Vodacce
I sorta agree but... Actually the very core strengh of eldar is this doctrine. Any change on it will heavily impact them, especialy in 1vs1.
HohesHaus
LOL have to try that ^^
Silveran
So after thinking about the basic math of this doctrine
Base 10s TP, 90s CD
The doctrine is supposed to reduce the TP by 4s and CD by 40s, somehow its being applied multiple times
Thus when you see just the doctrine you get 6s TP and 50s CD, as its reduced by 4 and 40 respectively
The wraithlord w/ doctrine equipped through him is actually DOUBLING the correct reduction, notice its reduced by 8s and 80s respectively now?
This also explains why having the wraithlord w/ doctrine + army doctrine equipped makes it 0s and 0s and its reduced by 12s and 120s.
Krupp
As long as Eldar heavily lean on a single Doctrine there is no way to properly balance them though. Same with the ASM doctrine, and that only affects a single unit.
So to properly balance Eldar this Doctrine needs adjustment/fixing and we can see how Eldar will do then.
Vodacce
Yeah but I can't help to worry. Eldars are already in a precarious spot. With 3 vehicles almost useless, wraithblades barely usefull in most of the matches, shadow spectres not so usefull too in most cases.
Wich mean, almost non existent late game and average mid-game. They heavily rely on their early game. I feel it's why this doctrine is here. If it happen to become bad or even average it's gonna hurt pretty bad.
If you add the fact that striking scorpions and Macha (Who are early game tools) have also a huge chance to be hammered down...
Yeah I can't see it ending well but I really hope to be wrong about that.
redScare
Doctrines are supposed to give a medium buff to some SUBSET of your army, and you´re supposed to pick the one that matches your play-style. That a doctrine is "the very core" is a clear sign of bad design. I hope Eldar get hit hard by the nerf-hammer in these regards, and get some vehicles buff to compensate.
Tyrlkol
Pretty sure the consensus is that this is a bug. You can expect it to get changed so that the wraithlord and the army doctrine dont stack, and that the only version that works is the one that makes it a 50s cd and 6 sec cast.
as to whether that will overnerf the eldar, that depends on whether the assault marine doctrine is fixed. ASM leap doctrine dmg / near instant cast is altogether too good. It makes tier 1 units obsolete. ASM leap doctrine and eldar webway bug are currently warping the game:
if a space marine player isn't a potato... he's going to roll you with ASM... (2x leap will wipe your whole dire avenger control group for free and it's undodgable with the current input lag - even on 0 latency i'd be incredulous about its dodgability since it's only a .5 sec cast) and if an eldar isn't a turnip, he's going to be using one or both of the wraithlord redux for instant or near instant webway relocation.
so until the patch, that's what the game is... asm vs instant webway. too bad for orks they get no cheese currently.