tacts will at least match up with shootas/dire avengers but their usability in field will not change, they will still be useless.
reason for this is simple. devastators/lootas/dark reaper severely out range and out damage ranged squads. its much more effective to spam set up teams as your main source of ranged damage than to use tacts/shootas/dire avengers
instead, look into nerfing set up teams, turn them into support weapons, greater but not stackable slow effect/reduce attack rates for all infantry units.
reduce damage by 50%
walkers + skimmers will not be slowed nor have their fire rates reduced. pass the role of dps back to ranged squads.
Well, in DoW2/CoH2, this larger DPS is generally balanced out by severe immobility. Maybe increase tear-down and set-up times to make them more immobile, rather than nerf this damage that heavily (after-all, they're heavy weapons - they should be doing a lot of damage).
The DPS disparity between set-up teams and normal rifle infantry is rather large, as you noted. This often means it's more efficient to use weapons teams as your go-to unit (being generally more efficient). Definitely a point to consider I think.
it is counterable however, but only by something i consider borderline cheese and completely detrimental to gameplay and unfun to be on the receiving end, even i wouldnt want my enemies to experience
double deathstorm pods.
they wont move fast enough to get out of the insane dps of the pods and get wiped. then u can move in and mop up.
cheap, effective and cheesy, like all other 1 shot abilities. quickstrike, spear and psyker blast, assault leap etc etc etc.
Honestly, 85% of suggestions made here make me believe you either troll, dont play the game or hate races in general..
machas spear is too fast... I dont like using macha because its quite the opposite xD
asm unuseable after you shift eswords to t2...
why not make eldar warpgate cooldown 60 seconds so its unusable :')
you do realize that this building costs alot early on, especially blue and it's mandatory for the race itself to be playable (flavour of race)
it must be inlcuded in your unit line to be played around like a unit, one mistake with the warpgate and you lose your whole army
SM has flags, drop pots and jumps, what do you need more? plasmaguns flamers, what does eldar or even ork have? just squads with similar costs, almost no upgrades
except you build a shrine/pile'o'gunz oh yeh ork can pickup scraps
the old fleet of foot in dawn of war 1 used to be 50/50 which was like 1/20th of your starting resource and GLOBAL not bound to a building which can be oneshot if done correctly! - compare this to now please
yes, tactical are underused and underpowered
yes, striking scorpion true damage is way op against shield generators
but you are comparing a hero unit with no spell potential
(nice 10mm nano jump with no dmg and 2 second cast time sweet)
to what? a random squad?
imaginebanshees had a true dmg upgrade or assault jump for free.. imagine the river youd be crying here.
quite frankly SM players have bad micro management and bad macromanagement I see that every game and they play Space Marine for that very reason
you can just rely on pacing beeing much slower and sturdier (which is also kind of the race flavour), have squads that are more forgiving and reinforcable while eldar has to micro a ton just to not lose straight up to Assault Jump get your facts straight and try 10 eldar matches against an average marine, then write a proper comment.
Let me ask you this:
Why are 18 of 20 players Space Marine players and only a handful of people I meet play eldar in quickmatches? (like 3-4, always the same players) and I'm playing the WHOLE WEEKEND + Monday... jesus has been that way in the past betas aswell btw
Must be because Space Marine is so weak, its so off meta to build 4 ASM Squads and destroy both Power Generators in under a Minute while crying about warpgate FoF
tacts will at least match up with shootas/dire avengers but their usability in field will not change, they will still be useless.
reason for this is simple. devastators/lootas/dark reaper severely out range and out damage ranged squads. its much more effective to spam set up teams as your main source of ranged damage than to use tacts/shootas/dire avengers
instead, look into nerfing set up teams, turn them into support weapons, greater but not stackable slow effect/reduce attack rates for all infantry units.
reduce damage by 50%
walkers + skimmers will not be slowed nor have their fire rates reduced. pass the role of dps back to ranged squads.
Tacs...uh, fulfill a tactical role which means they're meant to plug in the gaps in your army but the problem is they barely do that because their options are gated by a huge build time, requisition and power requirements. You can't really supplement your Devastator squad with tactical marines because of the cost and time nor can you balance it out by adding scouts because of the requisition costs. Fix those issues and it might be fine. But that's a side point...
Set up teams generally have one weakness which is they are pretty vulnerable in transit and beyond that they're actually pretty fragile; it's up for the player with the set up teams to always try to secure better positioning as well as pay extra attention to terrain because one ambush and everything is gone. You can't really clump up and recover from disruption like you can with melee (which is intended more or less I guess) because of the set up time. I think they're perfectly fine as is in a global sense, but individually, I think that SM devastators bolter and las cannons probably need another pass.
@epIx said:
Honestly, 85% of suggestions made here make me believe you either troll, dont play the game or hate races in general..
<...>
why not make eldar warpgate cooldown 60 seconds so its unusable :')
you do realize that this building costs alot early on, especially blue and it's mandatory for the race itself to be playable (flavour of race)
it must be inlcuded in your unit line to be played around like a unit, one mistake with the warpgate and you lose your whole army
SM has flags, drop pots and jumps, what do you need more? plasmaguns flamers, what does eldar or even ork have? just squads with similar costs, almost no upgrades
<...>
yes, tactical are underused and underpowered
yes, striking scorpion true damage is way op against shield generators
but you are comparing a hero unit with no spell potential
(nice 10mm nano jump with no dmg and 2 second cast time sweet)
to what? a random squad?
imaginebanshees had a true dmg upgrade or assault jump for free.. imagine the river youd be crying here.
quite frankly SM players have bad micro management and bad macromanagement I see that every game and they play Space Marine for that very reason
you can just rely on pacing beeing much slower and sturdier (which is also kind of the race flavour), have squads that are more forgiving and reinforcable while eldar has to micro a ton just to not lose straight up to Assault Jump get your facts straight and try 10 eldar matches against an average marine, then write a proper comment.
<...>
Must be because Space Marine is so weak, its so off meta to build 4 ASM Squads and destroy both Power Generators in under a Minute while crying about warpgate FoF
You speak truth, bro. But this truth is unpleasant for many low-skilled players, who require an imba to rule the games.
Now imagine situation for Ork player, facing a regular imba-abusing Space Marine in 1v1. Orks have no Scorpions with true damage to kill enemy shield generator, to avenge squads, killed by ASM+stun grenades. You, eldar, have a shield for your pointy-eared boyz, so you could withstand ASM doctrinal charge. But shootaboyz, for exmaple, loose 75% of the squad members after just one charge, which can not be dodged like AoE or grenade. Also you, as eldar, have some decent AV at the beginning of the second phase to counter fast land speeders. Ork have none, tankbustas can't withstand landspeeders - you reqiure killa cuns, but they could be produced only far later. SM players always have 2-3 minutes unpunished rampage at Ork base with land speeders. Of course that is enough to make Ork not able to produce any counter, because his eco is ruined.
Really, before we attempt to change single units, we should take a look at the ressource gain and distribution in the early game. Almost everybody here agrees, early game ressource gain feels clunky and slow and does t leave that many choices. Later in the game many of the strong units are alleviated. Its mostly about the snowballing in the early game which could be stopped if tech choices were easier to go for. Then the doctrines and their usage, im sure many of us can agree there are some superior than others just because of the fact, they are not interactively chosen but beforehand. Has every subpar doctrine now to be changed? No, they should have they specialized usage, but it has to be a intelligent decision not based on luck who i am matched against.
Then we can start to think about balancing single outlier units. Think topdown in the game design, not opposite. That is nothing but bandaiding.
@YbuBaKa said:
But this truth is unpleasant for many low-skilled players, who require an imba to rule the games.
My oh my. So how do we defend against vocal low-skilled crybabies and stop this "Nerf everything" train? I hope Relic has a lot of stuff on their hands not to think about rebalancing a neatly balanced game.
I wish all of the really gibby aoe abilities did half as much damage, but then had severe CC elements like blind and silence. Then there would be some counterplay, as apposed to just "oh hey, macha walked into my boyz and now they're dead". This is mainly a flavor gripe with the farseer inparticular, because she was such an iconic support style caster in the previous titles, built around allied buffs, enemy debuffs, and damage over time. This new "push W to wipe a squad" thing feels cheaply designed, and feels shallow even with the allied buffing properties that come with it.
**many low-skilled players, who require an imba to rule the games. **
word.
Now imagine situation for Ork player, facing a regular imba-abusing Space Marine in 1v1. Orks have no Scorpions with true damage to kill enemy shield generator, to avenge squads, killed by ASM+stun grenades. You, eldar, have a shield for your pointy-eared boyz, so you could withstand ASM doctrinal charge. But shootaboyz, for exmaple, loose 75% of the squad members after just one charge, which can not be dodged like AoE or grenade. Also you, as eldar, have some decent AV at the beginning of the second phase to counter fast land speeders.
I know, I dont like the idea of buffing orks but I feel like the matchup ork / eldar is _much _more balanced than the SM / eldar one. you are right there.
I wish all of the really gibby aoe abilities did half as much damage, but then had severe CC elements like blind and silence
that might a be a decent approach, I like the idea of it
"oh hey, macha walked into my boyz and now they're dead"
yep thats like ignoring the fact she needs to walk and be in range at all, while the mekboy deletes 5 squads with 2 abilities from 2 screens away :') instantly ofcourse^
The Eldar players should not forget here, Macha can stunlock enemy units in Stasis for AGES!
We even tried this tactic in 3 vs 3 with my friends. Hell the enemy could do NOTHING! And it was only ONE Eldar player.
Right now there are these Meta Combos;
Space Marines: Assault Marines + Tons of Devastators + Lascannons Devastators. Take fast Drop Pod ability and the two bolter drop pods. If you need to crush the backline take Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods and trow them into the enemy line in the end game.
The Terminators are removing the set up time for your Devastators.
IGNORE Tacticals by the love of god. They are just outright bad. Build them only when you need a fast Meat Shield. Otherwise avoid them!
Eldar; Full Banshee Spam Build or the Wraithguard Build with swords+ Phantomlord. The Wraithguard build is expensive, but it melts everything.
(Scorpions are very strong too by the way)
Orks: Nearly same as the Space Marines. But only with normal boyz for close combat, the rest are Pick ups and Lootas. Take Gorgutz, Stormboyz and the Morkanaut.
The rocket boyz do not seem very good at the first look, but with the scrap upgrade they are unlocking the "suicide Squigs" and THESE guys are insane.
(By the way just look into the Pick Up doctrines. Nearly all of them are really good)
Right now the Space Marines have the hardest early game with the tac marines, if you are playing against someone who knows what he is doing.
At the momen all my doctrines are based around faster drop pods, better devastator marines or better Dreadnoughts
In mid and end i am basically avoiding to build tac. The only reason i would buid them is as a meat shield.
90% Of time i am playing with normal Terminators, Diomedes and Kill Team Ironmaw.
The normal Terminators are removing the build up time for your devastors. Diomedes is a great close combat support hero, especially with his buffs for your Assault marines.
And Kill Team Ironmaw. Kill Team Ironmaw is basically a Tac Squad with an option to a flamer or a bazooka. A REAL tac squad.
I do not need the flamers on my other tacs, because i try to get Kill Team Ironmaw fast, pump out Aussault Marines and build some scouts and the rest are Devastators, Devastators and more Devastators with Las guns and Heavy Bolter.
In the end i am spawning my normal Terminators and then my Devastors are going into overdrive, because they do not need to build their weapons anymore.
By this time i am switching to dreadnoughts in drops Pods crashing into the enemy line.
The problem with Tactical is this:
In DoW 1 and DoW 2 they were similar to the Table Top tacs. They could equip plasma guns, flamers, rocket launchers and add a sergant.
In this game Tacticals will ALWAYS be the bad choice, because Devastators do their job so much better.
I have even unlocked the venerable Dreadnought for unlimited Plasma fire. (No cooldown anymore) The Devastators are still better.
And the early game damage is outright BAD. Sorry but it really is.
Right now the Space Marines have the hardest early game with the tac marines, if you are playing against someone who knows what he is doing.
At the momen all my doctrines are based around faster drop pods, better devastator marines or better Dreadnoughts
In mid and end i am basically avoiding to build tac. The only reason i would buid them is as a meat shield.
90% Of time i am playing with normal Terminators, Diomedes and Kill Team Ironmaw.
The normal Terminators are removing the build up time for your devastors. Diomedes is a great close combat support hero, especially with his buffs for your Assault marines.
And Kill Team Ironmaw. Kill Team Ironmaw is basically a Tac Squad with an option to a flamer or a bazooka. A REAL tac squad.
I do not need the flamers on my other tacs, because i try to get Kill Team Ironmaw fast, pump out Aussault Marines and build some scouts and the rest are Devastators, Devastators and more Devastators with Las guns and Heavy Bolter.
In the end i am spawning my normal Terminators and then my Devastors are going into overdrive, because they do not need to build their weapons anymore.
By this time i am switching to dreadnoughts in drops Pods crashing into the enemy line.
The problem with Tactical is this:
In DoW 1 and DoW 2 they were similar to the Table Top tacs. They could equip plasma guns, flamers, rocket launchers and add a sergant.
In this game Tacticals will ALWAYS be the bad choice, because Devastators do their job so much better.
I have even unlocked the venerable Dreadnought for unlimited Plasma fire. (No cooldown anymore) The Devastators are still better.
And the early game damage is outright BAD. Sorry but it really is.
Tacs are almost never a good first choice unless you're doing a specific team game strategy, but they are almost always a viable choice for your composition.
Few points. More I play quick match, more Eldar players I meet (surprising isn't it?). Regarding imba that rules the game it already exists in some manner. What we keep doing here (apart from OP) are comparing who has most uber imba doctrine/elite combo, which is pretty funny tbh. Many things are pretty obvious at this rate, but still not everything, yes. Many points and comparisons have already been aired by experienced players who spent a lot of time in PvP, and most of them make a lot of sense. Beating dead horse here won't prove anything.
@epIx said:
Honestly, 85% of suggestions made here make me believe you either troll, dont play the game or hate races in general..
machas spear is too fast... I dont like using macha because its quite the opposite xD
asm unuseable after you shift eswords to t2...
why not make eldar warpgate cooldown 60 seconds so its unusable :')
you do realize that this building costs alot early on, especially blue and it's mandatory for the race itself to be playable (flavour of race)
it must be inlcuded in your unit line to be played around like a unit, one mistake with the warpgate and you lose your whole army
SM has flags, drop pots and jumps, what do you need more? plasmaguns flamers, what does eldar or even ork have? just squads with similar costs, almost no upgrades
except you build a shrine/pile'o'gunz oh yeh ork can pickup scraps
the old fleet of foot in dawn of war 1 used to be 50/50 which was like 1/20th of your starting resource and GLOBAL not bound to a building which can be oneshot if done correctly! - compare this to now please
yes, tactical are underused and underpowered
yes, striking scorpion true damage is way op against shield generators
but you are comparing a hero unit with no spell potential
(nice 10mm nano jump with no dmg and 2 second cast time sweet)
to what? a random squad?
imaginebanshees had a true dmg upgrade or assault jump for free.. imagine the river youd be crying here.
quite frankly SM players have bad micro management and bad macromanagement I see that every game and they play Space Marine for that very reason
you can just rely on pacing beeing much slower and sturdier (which is also kind of the race flavour), have squads that are more forgiving and reinforcable while eldar has to micro a ton just to not lose straight up to Assault Jump get your facts straight and try 10 eldar matches against an average marine, then write a proper comment.
Let me ask you this:
Why are 18 of 20 players Space Marine players and only a handful of people I meet play eldar in quickmatches? (like 3-4, always the same players) and I'm playing the WHOLE WEEKEND + Monday... jesus has been that way in the past betas aswell btw
Must be because Space Marine is so weak, its so off meta to build 4 ASM Squads and destroy both Power Generators in under a Minute while crying about warpgate FoF
Wait, so you propose to nerf the obviously OP SM units but leave the obviously OP Eldar units alone, because you only play Eldar and its the other people who play SM and Orks so who cares about them right? They probably "have bad micro management and bad macromanagement I see that every game and they play Space Marine for that very reason" too so its just that they have to git gud right? While you are already a top competitive player who skillfully uses the balanced warpgate teleport with 10 second cd and striking scorpion gen bashing and only ever lose because of imba.
@vindicarex said:
1. Power Swords upgrade from Tier 1 to Tier 2
True damage in t1 really throws the pace of the game out of whack - allowing ASM to completely achieve new roles as extreme building smashers (destroying shield generators and LPs with extreme ease). With this change, ASM will still scale, but will have to invest in tech to do so. This leads to my 2nd point....
Wraithlord Webway doctrine nerfed.
This doctrine not only reduces cooldown of webway teleport, but also makes it available in Tier 1 (rather than T2). The CD is around 30 second I think. This basically gives you a webway to provide fleet of foot on demand, **anywhere ** - making the entire static nature of the webway in T1 irrelevant. I already think webways are a bit too strong (bit cheap, easy to build with teleporting bonesinger, and very hard to kill with anything in T1 due to the armor of buildings). The short CD makes it impossible to punish even if you manage to push the eldar force back. It's insane to fight players who use and abuse this, as there really is no counterplay to it. Webway gate teleport needs to be locked behind t2 imo, as it's just too powerful to try and fight in T1 with a small army size. Webway gates seem to be the "defensive" structure of Eldar and only change that role with tech - this doctrine breaks that entire concept to an extreme. It sends the already efficient Dire Avengers + Striking Scorpions way OTT. you only need 1 webway to cover the entire map...
In the hands of high-skill players, it's really mind-boggling how powerful this advantage (one that can be utilized at min. 1 of the game).
Bonesinger + Webway counter-play
I would place bonesinger's teleport on CD at start of game and on construction. This way, they can't immediately teleport to a hot-contested zone to gain a huge initiative in the already super-powerful forward base. Webway gates are also **very ** hard to remove in T1 (and rather cheap to build as well) - often only being able to take them out once the entire Eldar army is dealt with. I would like to see it more fragile so that there's some counterplay to punish aggressive webway gate placement. Like with the wraithlord doctrine, there isn't counter-play to punish aggressive use of it. Make it regular infantry armor instead (or at least increase the cost to make it a more significant investment considering its benefits).
I'm in agreement with the power swords. Although I think having true damage is fine and it's a great tech choice, it's currently available a little too early. Given their innate mobility to start with, it's just too strong of an anti-structure choice for the escalation phases. Remember that buildings have less HP in earlier phases, giving these early-destroyers an even bigger boost.
I've seen the webways work with great eldar players to devastating effect. It's powerful, and I enjoy playing against good players but it doesnt offer me much to counter with.
I'd like to maybe see that the channel to warp it away takes longer when it's under fire, what do you think? I can just manage to get my orks there after winning a skirmish to try and challenge the webway but it blinks out faster than I can destroy it.
I'd also suggest having a system shock, where no warping is allowed if a building is destroyed while it's attempting to relocate.
@CleanAndClear said:
I would add that in general Eldar buildings should be much squishier, because right now they have no disadvantage that would balance their teleport possibilities. The Eldar buildings are pretty much indestructible in the early to mid game right now because you can always just tp them away, resulting in super aggressive play possibilities with Eldar with no real risk involved. You just tp your barracks with you to the attack, keep fighting for 20 seconds, and in case it goes wrong you tp away again. You have to screw up really hard to give your opponent any chance to destroy your buildings.
My thoughts exactly. I like being challenged by these guys warping in their buildings and having to suddenly fight 5 banshees early game.
The problem is, though, as an ork, even when I win the engagement and move to take their webway, they just teleport it away. I can't do enough damage to it fast enough early game to punish them for it.
@Killyox said:
Checked vs SI and yeah, Power Swords are nuts (very cool but nuts) You shred buildings and light vehicles to ribbons.
And tacs are extremely weak even 2 squads vs a single boyz squad. they are somewhat better with doctrine to make them move faster outside of combat (they are really fast) but that's about it.
The big problem is that ASM stop being anti-infantry and become anti-everything too quickly. Having access to powerswords allows them to take out structures that other units couldn't touch much faster.
Because you get power swords so quickly, the escalation phase makes it so that buildings are relatively even weaker in I / II, allowing them to gib shield generators without giving the opposing player enough time to mount any reaction.
@wongtp said:
reason for this is simple. devastators/lootas/dark reaper severely out range and out damage ranged squads. its much more effective to spam set up teams as your main source of ranged damage than to use tacts/shootas/dire avengers
Shootas and dire avengers have grenades, which make them more useful than the setup teams in some situations. Tacs have upgrades which differ them from devs, but granted the plasma upgrade atm might be inferior to just buying a devastator unless you have doctrines.
With regard to the Wraithlord doctrine, @Silveran did some testing and found it's bugged:
@Silveran said:
So ya. I think its just glitched and the ACTUAL doctrine is when you have just it equipped as an army doctrine. I wonder if any others stack......oh boy.
Wraithlord w/ doctrine - 2s to warp, 10s til re-warp available
No Wraithlord, just army doctrine - 6s to warp, 50s til re-warp available
Wraithlord w/o doctrine, but equipping doctrine - 6s to warp, 50s til re-warp available
Wraith w/ doctrine, also equipping army doctrine - ALL INSTANT OMG WTF
The Jonah doctrine for scout blind grenades has something about the duration scaling with hero level in the description, so maybe 10 seconds is intended, and should be changed. The hero doctrine stacking with the same army doctrine might also be a feature not a bug. Should be changed as well ofc.
I see a lot of posts regarding the Webway gate doctrine to be outright removed, while i do agree with the consensus that it does need to be changed, i do not agree with completely removing the doctrine as a whole.
Being a Eldar player, i have found great enjoyment out of using it as a part of my army, and really builds on the faction design of teleportation, but as it is right now there is no counterplay for the opponent and it is a no-brainer for me. So by changing the webway gate as i will state below, it will add a tactical decision on both me and the opponent.
Eldar Webway gate now has Mana resource, slow regeneration.
Eldar Webway Fleet of Foot passive is now a toggle-able ability that drains mana.
Eldar Webway starts with 0 Mana resource when finished building.
While Fleet of Foot is toggled on, Webway Gate becomes a lot more vulnerable (See WAAGH tower effect when channeling WAAGH)
Teleporting the Webway gate costs mana.
I would like to keep the Webway Gate as an active building, and not just as a "build and forget" no brainer, changing the way the building works is the way to balance it in my opinion. I would not know the exact rates of mana drain/regeneration, but it should be clear that keeping Fleet of Foot buff up should be a tactical decision for the player. Make the Eldar awry of over extending and running out of Mana. And also, 10 second cooldown, 2 second cast time is way too fast for the teleportation.
Interesting to be sure, but I doubt Relic will do something like it since it means they have to literally add an entire mechanic to the game (that doesn't exist anywhere else in it).
this is why I think the changes should be more simple, as they have more feasibility to receive implementation.
That being said, I think a mana/energy system would help add balance to Elites and such.
@Cataclawy said:
I see a lot of posts regarding the Webway gate doctrine to be outright removed, while i do agree with the consensus that it does need to be changed, i do not agree with completely removing the doctrine as a whole.
Being a Eldar player, i have found great enjoyment out of using it as a part of my army, and really builds on the faction design of teleportation, but as it is right now there is no counterplay for the opponent and it is a no-brainer for me. So by changing the webway gate as i will state below, it will add a tactical decision on both me and the opponent.
Eldar Webway gate now has Mana resource, slow regeneration.
Eldar Webway Fleet of Foot passive is now a toggle-able ability that drains mana.
Eldar Webway starts with 0 Mana resource when finished building.
While Fleet of Foot is toggled on, Webway Gate becomes a lot more vulnerable (See WAAGH tower effect when channeling WAAGH)
Teleporting the Webway gate costs mana.
I would like to keep the Webway Gate as an active building, and not just as a "build and forget" no brainer, changing the way the building works is the way to balance it in my opinion. I would not know the exact rates of mana drain/regeneration, but it should be clear that keeping Fleet of Foot buff up should be a tactical decision for the player. Make the Eldar awry of over extending and running out of Mana. And also, 10 second cooldown, 2 second cast time is way too fast for the teleportation.
What do you guys think?
This is a solution but it's a solution specifically tailored to extremely good players who are currently abusing the Wraithlord doctrine. For an average player, who builds multiple webway gates, it's a massive micro burden that is necessary to make the faction work (Did I toggle FoF on for gate 1 or gate 5? Did I toggle it off for gate 3?).
The main problem currently is not that FoF is itself OP, it is that one webway gate can be used to cover the entire map without any risk. If you see @Silveran's test results, the actual army doctrine is reasonably sensible compared to what you get when you equip the Wraithlord. Changing the Wraithlord-equipped version to the army doctrine version and preventing stacking should be done before any mana system is considered.
@wongtp said:
reason for this is simple. devastators/lootas/dark reaper severely out range and out damage ranged squads. its much more effective to spam set up teams as your main source of ranged damage than to use tacts/shootas/dire avengers
Shootas and dire avengers have grenades, which make them more useful than the setup teams in some situations. Tacs have upgrades which differ them from devs, but granted the plasma upgrade atm might be inferior to just buying a devastator unless you have doctrines.
arguably. but devs are far safer to use with proper positioning due to their range.
their base damage should more than make up for the burst damage that grenades have. on top of that they can slow squads.
@Cataclawy said:
I see a lot of posts regarding the Webway gate doctrine to be outright removed, while i do agree with the consensus that it does need to be changed, i do not agree with completely removing the doctrine as a whole.
Being a Eldar player, i have found great enjoyment out of using it as a part of my army, and really builds on the faction design of teleportation, but as it is right now there is no counterplay for the opponent and it is a no-brainer for me. So by changing the webway gate as i will state below, it will add a tactical decision on both me and the opponent.
Eldar Webway gate now has Mana resource, slow regeneration.
Eldar Webway Fleet of Foot passive is now a toggle-able ability that drains mana.
Eldar Webway starts with 0 Mana resource when finished building.
While Fleet of Foot is toggled on, Webway Gate becomes a lot more vulnerable (See WAAGH tower effect when channeling WAAGH)
Teleporting the Webway gate costs mana.
I would like to keep the Webway Gate as an active building, and not just as a "build and forget" no brainer, changing the way the building works is the way to balance it in my opinion. I would not know the exact rates of mana drain/regeneration, but it should be clear that keeping Fleet of Foot buff up should be a tactical decision for the player. Make the Eldar awry of over extending and running out of Mana. And also, 10 second cooldown, 2 second cast time is way too fast for the teleportation.
What do you guys think?
I like the general idea, but I can see the problem with forgetting to toggle it off @Svanh mentined, I'm afraid it would be a bit too micro heavy compared to other things in the game and could get a little annoying after a while. What could maybe be a nice compromise would be to have FoF as a active ability on the gate that lasts for let's say 15 seconds, and an upgrade in soul shrine to make it last longer, and it would have a cooldown. The passive increase in shield regen would be on all the time.
Mana system would be great to have in the game, but it's sadly not likely anytime soon imo.
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wongtp
it is counterable however, but only by something i consider borderline cheese and completely detrimental to gameplay and unfun to be on the receiving end, even i wouldnt want my enemies to experience
double deathstorm pods.
they wont move fast enough to get out of the insane dps of the pods and get wiped. then u can move in and mop up.
cheap, effective and cheesy, like all other 1 shot abilities. quickstrike, spear and psyker blast, assault leap etc etc etc.
epIx
Honestly, 85% of suggestions made here make me believe you either troll, dont play the game or hate races in general..
why not make eldar warpgate cooldown 60 seconds so its unusable :')
you do realize that this building costs alot early on, especially blue and it's mandatory for the race itself to be playable (flavour of race)
it must be inlcuded in your unit line to be played around like a unit, one mistake with the warpgate and you lose your whole army
SM has flags, drop pots and jumps, what do you need more? plasmaguns flamers, what does eldar or even ork have? just squads with similar costs, almost no upgrades
except you build a shrine/pile'o'gunz oh yeh ork can pickup scraps
the old fleet of foot in dawn of war 1 used to be 50/50 which was like 1/20th of your starting resource and GLOBAL not bound to a building which can be oneshot if done correctly! - compare this to now please
yes, tactical are underused and underpowered
yes, striking scorpion true damage is way op against shield generators
but you are comparing a hero unit with no spell potential
(nice 10mm nano jump with no dmg and 2 second cast time sweet)
to what? a random squad?
imagine banshees had a true dmg upgrade or assault jump for free.. imagine the river youd be crying here.
quite frankly SM players have bad micro management and bad macromanagement I see that every game and they play Space Marine for that very reason
you can just rely on pacing beeing much slower and sturdier (which is also kind of the race flavour), have squads that are more forgiving and reinforcable while eldar has to micro a ton just to not lose straight up to Assault Jump
get your facts straight and try 10 eldar matches against an average marine, then write a proper comment.
Let me ask you this:
Why are 18 of 20 players Space Marine players and only a handful of people I meet play eldar in quickmatches? (like 3-4, always the same players) and I'm playing the WHOLE WEEKEND + Monday... jesus
has been that way in the past betas aswell btw
Must be because Space Marine is so weak, its so off meta to build 4 ASM Squads and destroy both Power Generators in under a Minute while crying about warpgate FoF
steinernein
Tacs...uh, fulfill a tactical role which means they're meant to plug in the gaps in your army but the problem is they barely do that because their options are gated by a huge build time, requisition and power requirements. You can't really supplement your Devastator squad with tactical marines because of the cost and time nor can you balance it out by adding scouts because of the requisition costs. Fix those issues and it might be fine. But that's a side point...
Set up teams generally have one weakness which is they are pretty vulnerable in transit and beyond that they're actually pretty fragile; it's up for the player with the set up teams to always try to secure better positioning as well as pay extra attention to terrain because one ambush and everything is gone. You can't really clump up and recover from disruption like you can with melee (which is intended more or less I guess) because of the set up time. I think they're perfectly fine as is in a global sense, but individually, I think that SM devastators bolter and las cannons probably need another pass.
YbuBaKa
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You speak truth, bro. But this truth is unpleasant for many low-skilled players, who require an imba to rule the games.
Now imagine situation for Ork player, facing a regular imba-abusing Space Marine in 1v1. Orks have no Scorpions with true damage to kill enemy shield generator, to avenge squads, killed by ASM+stun grenades. You, eldar, have a shield for your pointy-eared boyz, so you could withstand ASM doctrinal charge. But shootaboyz, for exmaple, loose 75% of the squad members after just one charge, which can not be dodged like AoE or grenade. Also you, as eldar, have some decent AV at the beginning of the second phase to counter fast land speeders. Ork have none, tankbustas can't withstand landspeeders - you reqiure killa cuns, but they could be produced only far later. SM players always have 2-3 minutes unpunished rampage at Ork base with land speeders. Of course that is enough to make Ork not able to produce any counter, because his eco is ruined.
steinernein
The assault jump is a little bit more than stupid in its current format - you have to make a hard read which skews the risk/reward.
Algorithm
Really, before we attempt to change single units, we should take a look at the ressource gain and distribution in the early game. Almost everybody here agrees, early game ressource gain feels clunky and slow and does t leave that many choices. Later in the game many of the strong units are alleviated. Its mostly about the snowballing in the early game which could be stopped if tech choices were easier to go for. Then the doctrines and their usage, im sure many of us can agree there are some superior than others just because of the fact, they are not interactively chosen but beforehand. Has every subpar doctrine now to be changed? No, they should have they specialized usage, but it has to be a intelligent decision not based on luck who i am matched against.
Then we can start to think about balancing single outlier units. Think topdown in the game design, not opposite. That is nothing but bandaiding.
DonDimon
Praised be, @EPIX, maybe folks will take heed.
My oh my. So how do we defend against vocal low-skilled crybabies and stop this "Nerf everything" train?
I hope Relic has a lot of stuff on their hands not to think about rebalancing a neatly balanced game.
Xerrol_Nanoha
I wish all of the really gibby aoe abilities did half as much damage, but then had severe CC elements like blind and silence. Then there would be some counterplay, as apposed to just "oh hey, macha walked into my boyz and now they're dead". This is mainly a flavor gripe with the farseer inparticular, because she was such an iconic support style caster in the previous titles, built around allied buffs, enemy debuffs, and damage over time. This new "push W to wipe a squad" thing feels cheaply designed, and feels shallow even with the allied buffing properties that come with it.
epIx
@YBUKAKA
word.
I know, I dont like the idea of buffing orks but I feel like the matchup ork / eldar is _much _more balanced than the SM / eldar one. you are right there.
yes, but look at my other thread I posted some gameplay right there https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/11807/balance-asm-beyond-broken/p1?new=1
tell me how the pointy heads are doin in there :')
that might a be a decent approach, I like the idea of it
yep thats like ignoring the fact she needs to walk and be in range at all, while the mekboy deletes 5 squads with 2 abilities from 2 screens away :') instantly ofcourse^
Navinor
The Eldar players should not forget here, Macha can stunlock enemy units in Stasis for AGES!
We even tried this tactic in 3 vs 3 with my friends. Hell the enemy could do NOTHING! And it was only ONE Eldar player.
Right now there are these Meta Combos;
Space Marines: Assault Marines + Tons of Devastators + Lascannons Devastators. Take fast Drop Pod ability and the two bolter drop pods. If you need to crush the backline take Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods and trow them into the enemy line in the end game.
The Terminators are removing the set up time for your Devastators.
IGNORE Tacticals by the love of god. They are just outright bad. Build them only when you need a fast Meat Shield. Otherwise avoid them!
Eldar; Full Banshee Spam Build or the Wraithguard Build with swords+ Phantomlord. The Wraithguard build is expensive, but it melts everything.
(Scorpions are very strong too by the way)
Orks: Nearly same as the Space Marines. But only with normal boyz for close combat, the rest are Pick ups and Lootas. Take Gorgutz, Stormboyz and the Morkanaut.
The rocket boyz do not seem very good at the first look, but with the scrap upgrade they are unlocking the "suicide Squigs" and THESE guys are insane.
(By the way just look into the Pick Up doctrines. Nearly all of them are really good)
Xerrol_Nanoha
BTW I also hate stasis, it's literally the worst thing in the game to experience.
Navinor
Right now the Space Marines have the hardest early game with the tac marines, if you are playing against someone who knows what he is doing.
At the momen all my doctrines are based around faster drop pods, better devastator marines or better Dreadnoughts
In mid and end i am basically avoiding to build tac. The only reason i would buid them is as a meat shield.
90% Of time i am playing with normal Terminators, Diomedes and Kill Team Ironmaw.
The normal Terminators are removing the build up time for your devastors. Diomedes is a great close combat support hero, especially with his buffs for your Assault marines.
And Kill Team Ironmaw. Kill Team Ironmaw is basically a Tac Squad with an option to a flamer or a bazooka. A REAL tac squad.
I do not need the flamers on my other tacs, because i try to get Kill Team Ironmaw fast, pump out Aussault Marines and build some scouts and the rest are Devastators, Devastators and more Devastators with Las guns and Heavy Bolter.
In the end i am spawning my normal Terminators and then my Devastors are going into overdrive, because they do not need to build their weapons anymore.
By this time i am switching to dreadnoughts in drops Pods crashing into the enemy line.
The problem with Tactical is this:
In DoW 1 and DoW 2 they were similar to the Table Top tacs. They could equip plasma guns, flamers, rocket launchers and add a sergant.
In this game Tacticals will ALWAYS be the bad choice, because Devastators do their job so much better.
I have even unlocked the venerable Dreadnought for unlimited Plasma fire. (No cooldown anymore) The Devastators are still better.
And the early game damage is outright BAD. Sorry but it really is.
Navinor
Right now the Space Marines have the hardest early game with the tac marines, if you are playing against someone who knows what he is doing.
At the momen all my doctrines are based around faster drop pods, better devastator marines or better Dreadnoughts
In mid and end i am basically avoiding to build tac. The only reason i would buid them is as a meat shield.
90% Of time i am playing with normal Terminators, Diomedes and Kill Team Ironmaw.
The normal Terminators are removing the build up time for your devastors. Diomedes is a great close combat support hero, especially with his buffs for your Assault marines.
And Kill Team Ironmaw. Kill Team Ironmaw is basically a Tac Squad with an option to a flamer or a bazooka. A REAL tac squad.
I do not need the flamers on my other tacs, because i try to get Kill Team Ironmaw fast, pump out Aussault Marines and build some scouts and the rest are Devastators, Devastators and more Devastators with Las guns and Heavy Bolter.
In the end i am spawning my normal Terminators and then my Devastors are going into overdrive, because they do not need to build their weapons anymore.
By this time i am switching to dreadnoughts in drops Pods crashing into the enemy line.
The problem with Tactical is this:
In DoW 1 and DoW 2 they were similar to the Table Top tacs. They could equip plasma guns, flamers, rocket launchers and add a sergant.
In this game Tacticals will ALWAYS be the bad choice, because Devastators do their job so much better.
I have even unlocked the venerable Dreadnought for unlimited Plasma fire. (No cooldown anymore) The Devastators are still better.
And the early game damage is outright BAD. Sorry but it really is.
steinernein
@Navinor
Tacs are almost never a good first choice unless you're doing a specific team game strategy, but they are almost always a viable choice for your composition.
Stoner
Few points. More I play quick match, more Eldar players I meet (surprising isn't it?). Regarding imba that rules the game it already exists in some manner. What we keep doing here (apart from OP) are comparing who has most uber imba doctrine/elite combo, which is pretty funny tbh. Many things are pretty obvious at this rate, but still not everything, yes. Many points and comparisons have already been aired by experienced players who spent a lot of time in PvP, and most of them make a lot of sense. Beating dead horse here won't prove anything.
Bambilambi
Edit... delete post
Bersercker
Wait, so you propose to nerf the obviously OP SM units but leave the obviously OP Eldar units alone, because you only play Eldar and its the other people who play SM and Orks so who cares about them right? They probably "have bad micro management and bad macromanagement I see that every game and they play Space Marine for that very reason" too so its just that they have to git gud right? While you are already a top competitive player who skillfully uses the balanced warpgate teleport with 10 second cd and striking scorpion gen bashing and only ever lose because of imba.
Great post, 10/10, would read again.
Stoner
Yes, making a conclusion that most SM players have bad micro is quite hilarious.
Sigmatus
I'm in agreement with the power swords. Although I think having true damage is fine and it's a great tech choice, it's currently available a little too early. Given their innate mobility to start with, it's just too strong of an anti-structure choice for the escalation phases. Remember that buildings have less HP in earlier phases, giving these early-destroyers an even bigger boost.
I've seen the webways work with great eldar players to devastating effect. It's powerful, and I enjoy playing against good players but it doesnt offer me much to counter with.
I'd like to maybe see that the channel to warp it away takes longer when it's under fire, what do you think? I can just manage to get my orks there after winning a skirmish to try and challenge the webway but it blinks out faster than I can destroy it.
I'd also suggest having a system shock, where no warping is allowed if a building is destroyed while it's attempting to relocate.
Sigmatus
My thoughts exactly. I like being challenged by these guys warping in their buildings and having to suddenly fight 5 banshees early game.
The problem is, though, as an ork, even when I win the engagement and move to take their webway, they just teleport it away. I can't do enough damage to it fast enough early game to punish them for it.
Sigmatus
The big problem is that ASM stop being anti-infantry and become anti-everything too quickly. Having access to powerswords allows them to take out structures that other units couldn't touch much faster.
Because you get power swords so quickly, the escalation phase makes it so that buildings are relatively even weaker in I / II, allowing them to gib shield generators without giving the opposing player enough time to mount any reaction.
PiggiesGoMoo
Shootas and dire avengers have grenades, which make them more useful than the setup teams in some situations. Tacs have upgrades which differ them from devs, but granted the plasma upgrade atm might be inferior to just buying a devastator unless you have doctrines.
Svanh
With regard to the Wraithlord doctrine, @Silveran did some testing and found it's bugged:
From this thread.
Bersercker
The Jonah doctrine for scout blind grenades has something about the duration scaling with hero level in the description, so maybe 10 seconds is intended, and should be changed. The hero doctrine stacking with the same army doctrine might also be a feature not a bug.
Should be changed as well ofc.
Cataclawy
I see a lot of posts regarding the Webway gate doctrine to be outright removed, while i do agree with the consensus that it does need to be changed, i do not agree with completely removing the doctrine as a whole.
Being a Eldar player, i have found great enjoyment out of using it as a part of my army, and really builds on the faction design of teleportation, but as it is right now there is no counterplay for the opponent and it is a no-brainer for me. So by changing the webway gate as i will state below, it will add a tactical decision on both me and the opponent.
Eldar Webway gate now has Mana resource, slow regeneration.
Eldar Webway Fleet of Foot passive is now a toggle-able ability that drains mana.
Eldar Webway starts with 0 Mana resource when finished building.
While Fleet of Foot is toggled on, Webway Gate becomes a lot more vulnerable (See WAAGH tower effect when channeling WAAGH)
Teleporting the Webway gate costs mana.
I would like to keep the Webway Gate as an active building, and not just as a "build and forget" no brainer, changing the way the building works is the way to balance it in my opinion. I would not know the exact rates of mana drain/regeneration, but it should be clear that keeping Fleet of Foot buff up should be a tactical decision for the player. Make the Eldar awry of over extending and running out of Mana. And also, 10 second cooldown, 2 second cast time is way too fast for the teleportation.
What do you guys think?
vindicarex
Interesting to be sure, but I doubt Relic will do something like it since it means they have to literally add an entire mechanic to the game (that doesn't exist anywhere else in it).
That being said, I think a mana/energy system would help add balance to Elites and such.
Svanh
This is a solution but it's a solution specifically tailored to extremely good players who are currently abusing the Wraithlord doctrine. For an average player, who builds multiple webway gates, it's a massive micro burden that is necessary to make the faction work (Did I toggle FoF on for gate 1 or gate 5? Did I toggle it off for gate 3?).
The main problem currently is not that FoF is itself OP, it is that one webway gate can be used to cover the entire map without any risk. If you see @Silveran's test results, the actual army doctrine is reasonably sensible compared to what you get when you equip the Wraithlord. Changing the Wraithlord-equipped version to the army doctrine version and preventing stacking should be done before any mana system is considered.
wongtp
arguably. but devs are far safer to use with proper positioning due to their range.
their base damage should more than make up for the burst damage that grenades have. on top of that they can slow squads.
CleanAndClear
I like the general idea, but I can see the problem with forgetting to toggle it off @Svanh mentined, I'm afraid it would be a bit too micro heavy compared to other things in the game and could get a little annoying after a while. What could maybe be a nice compromise would be to have FoF as a active ability on the gate that lasts for let's say 15 seconds, and an upgrade in soul shrine to make it last longer, and it would have a cooldown. The passive increase in shield regen would be on all the time.
Mana system would be great to have in the game, but it's sadly not likely anytime soon imo.