Yeah, this meta of people basically only make ASM is so unfun. I hate playing against SM because of that and I am SM myself. There is 0 diversity in the matchup.
It's not the Assault Marines that are overpowered, it's their overpowered sword :P
Overpowered, underpowered, perfectly balanced, I'll be spamming them until Khorne Berserkers arrive. I do hope something is done, though. I don't enjoy the feeling of rushing to get the power sword and I don't enjoy rushing the generator, turret, and power core with the ASM while the enemy army is busy elsewhere. I do it, I sort of feel like it's all I can do, but it's not really fun and when I don't do it I don't meet with much success.
I need to get into some 3v3s to play around with counters. If all 3 armies don't just blob somewhere and give ASMs an opening, maybe you can actually defend.
@nerva2940 said:
it's extremely difficult to counter, and I would argue impossible to counter in 3v3.
You have a pindown and a slow ability on Devastators...
Pin is very buggy and the snare isn't going to matter when they jump on you and SLOW you down to engage in melee.
Pin also does ZERO damage. So, the only time this works is if you severely out number the ASMs. Devastators are 450 each. Even going 2 devastators and 1 tac marine you're probably going to lose against two ASMs. Unless... the tac marine has a flamer.
Also, pin gets broken if the ASMs decide to jump or hop.
@PrimaGoosa said:
I need to get into some 3v3s to play around with counters. If all 3 armies don't just blob somewhere and give ASMs an opening, maybe you can actually defend.
This is usually the mistake the enemy makes. All you have to do is wait for the large blob of the 3 armies to push forward in any direction and the ASM can just destroy their empty base by themselves while your teammates do... anything really. As long as your team doesn't sit idly by doing nothing, the ASM can usually defeat an empty base faster than 3 armies can push through a single defender. Only in early game, though, if you wait too long it becomes much harder.
@nerva2940 said:
it's extremely difficult to counter, and I would argue impossible to counter in 3v3.
You have a pindown and a slow ability on Devastators...
Pin is very buggy and the snare isn't going to matter when they jump on you and SLOW you down to engage in melee.
Pin also does ZERO damage. So, the only time this works is if you severely out number the ASMs. Devastators are 450 each. Even going 2 devastators and 1 tac marine you're probably going to lose against two ASMs. Unless... the tac marine has a flamer.
Also, pin gets broken if the ASMs decide to jump or hop.
I'd probably try mixing up devs and scouts, personally, and focus more on defending shield generators from under the turrets. Keep the devs split, keep high vision and anticipate stuns on top of the shield gens with scouts, and generally see what I can do.
@nerva2940 said:
it's extremely difficult to counter, and I would argue impossible to counter in 3v3.
You have a pindown and a slow ability on Devastators...
Pin is very buggy and the snare isn't going to matter when they jump on you and SLOW you down to engage in melee.
Pin also does ZERO damage. So, the only time this works is if you severely out number the ASMs. Devastators are 450 each. Even going 2 devastators and 1 tac marine you're probably going to lose against two ASMs. Unless... the tac marine has a flamer.
Also, pin gets broken if the ASMs decide to jump or hop.
I'd probably try mixing up devs and scouts, personally, and focus more on defending shield generators from under the turrets. Keep the devs split, keep high vision and anticipate stuns on top of the shield gens with scouts, and generally see what I can do.
Personally, I think you should try out your suggestions or run through the math before replying and then think about how you're going to manage lane warfare vs asymmetrical warfare.
@steinernein said:
Personally, I think you should try out your suggestions or run through the math before replying and then think about how you're going to manage lane warfare vs asymmetrical warfare.
I'm just spitballing ideas conversationally based on what I plan on trying when I get an opportunity to play. If you want to start demanding testing and mathematics to support every argument, then you should start with your own stream of consciousness that seems to do nothing more than attempt to prove your gut reaction of "this won't work".
@steinernein said:
Personally, I think you should try out your suggestions or run through the math before replying and then think about how you're going to manage lane warfare vs asymmetrical warfare.
I'm just spitballing ideas conversationally based on what I plan on trying when I get an opportunity to play. If you want to start demanding testing and mathematics to support every argument, then you should start with your own stream of consciousness that seems to do nothing more than attempt to prove your gut reaction of "this won't work".
And I am just telling you that you should stop spitballing ideas in this thread because your ideas have been trash thus far and maybe you'll have better luck if you actually put some thought into it.
I already pointed out why the math doesn't work out, and why it defaults to playing from behind - you're just choosing to ignore it. Furthermore, in the context of 3v3s you're going to have to consider the meta and how you intend to maneuver around the map when your units take set up time hence the whole lane vs asymmetrical warfare thing.
Just do me a favor and let's not reply to one another from here on out in this thread. You, currently, have nothing to offer but half-baked ideas that people have already spent time grinding through (hint: read the Gamereplays forum and the Space Marine forum).
i play eldar i dont have problems with asm spam, actually its a freewin. when he got his first asm my banshee awaits. to counter asm it depends on your opening. the backdoor potential is pure antifun cheese i agree but when in 3v3 people push and defend their own lanes its nearly impossible for him to do that.
Eldar can counter early game ASM spam with striking scorpions which are even more OP. Just gotta not get tottaly wrecked till they can deploy. They can easily kill 2-3 squads of asm all by themselves.
Do you always react this way to any sort of disagreement or even the slightest questioning of your thoughts/ideas? Your math was half-hearted at best, the meta appears to be sneaking ASMs back to shield generators/your base when your army is otherwise occupied (unless this isn't that big of a deal and isn't out of hand?), and I've always been one to test things myself instead of crutch on the theorycrafting of others.
So cheers to the folks over at Gamereplays.org who have already figured out all the answers. I have no idea who they are, how dedicated they are to testing, nor what constitutes "grinding it out" for them, so I have no idea why I should take it on faith that they did an appropriate job of hashing out all the details. And I'm not going to go chasing every online community someone points me towards as a reference for strategy.
If you don't want to go into any more detail, that's fine. I've already thought of potential issues to my idea before I even started playing, and I've started to think of how I can alleviate those issues.
But I'm not going to do you any favors just because you decided to get aggressive.
@PrimaGoosa said:
I need to get into some 3v3s to play around with counters. If all 3 armies don't just blob somewhere and give ASMs an opening, maybe you can actually defend.
yeah, cuz if there are 3 SM hypothetically, you're dealing with 3x the ASM spam. pretty much every SM player is doing it now, and rate is increasing.
@Bersercker said:
Eldar can counter early game ASM spam with striking scorpions which are even more OP. Just gotta not get tottaly wrecked till they can deploy. They can easily kill 2-3 squads of asm all by themselves.
this just hasn't been my experience. Banshees and Scorps melt to 3+ ASM squads.
@Bigamo said:
Eldar complaining about ASM... ROFLM, NOTHING is more overpowered than eldar. ASM are fine. The Venerable dreadnought doctrine is not and eldar is a freaking ++heresy redacted++ overpowered joke. I don't even try to play against noobdar, i just hit the surrender button.
ASM --- > Fine? I mean yeah Eldar aren't exactly balanced but you would have to be a fool to call ASM fine.
that's ++heresy redacted++. the game is terribly imba right now you can't just be like "git gud" the mechanics and gameplay currently heavily favor very specific builds
I think Swords are much bigger problem than Ven jump. It doesn't do a lot of damage exactly, it's just basically third jump and not much else with pretty long cd. Why people freaking out about this so much? Banshees charge is way more powerful.
@Stoner said:
I think Swords are much bigger problem than Ven jump. It doesn't do a lot of damage exactly, it's just basically third jump and not much else with pretty long cd. Why people freaking out about this so much? Banshees charge is way more powerful.
Someone showed a gif of I believe 2 ASMs leaping over a couple squads of Dire Avengers that were clumped up, and the DAs melted. As far as I'm aware that's the genesis of this being a huge problem. Part of the issue was also a lack of counterplay since the jump happens instantly, and Banshees have a bit of a wind-up and move more slowly, iirc. It wasn't all about the damage, though damage was a complaint.
@Ekko_Tek said:
ASM are fine though - it's just the Ven Dread doctrine added jump ability and power swords in T1 for relatively cheap that need toning down.
This, ASM thenselves are fine, the Ven Dread doctrine from the get go is NOT, neither the powersword upgrade on tier 1.
Ven dred doctrine is useless. I grinded xp for it because it sounded good, but it really does nothing.
@Setzaroth said:
Ven dred doctrine is useless. I grinded xp for it because it sounded good, but it really does nothing.
Yep a doctrine giving an already extremely good highly mobile melee unit another jump thats instant and causes 450 dmg totally does nothing, its just garbage compared to other doctrines.
So, in case people don't realize, the low flying sweep is an AOE and will do more damage the closer your units are. Not just if units are on top of each other, but if they're able to jump over the center of your unit it will do a lot more damage than if they hit the side of your unit. Part of that is on the SM player, but part of it is on you. If you're running away next to a wall and your unit is clumped up it will take a lot more damage than if it's standing out in the open fully spread.
I would much prefer that the low sweep ability has its damage nerfed as oppose to having its windup time increased. Their vertical jump takes so much time, I'm not sure how useful it actually is as an attack. If the doctrine didn't do so much damage it'd be a wonderful escape tool.
at the very least, it's a shitty state of the game. for an SM player, there's absolutely no reason to do anything else other than spam ASM until mid game.
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Comments
nerva2940
(at least for eldar)
yourCuteMotoko
better nerf eldar
motiv
Learn to adapt.
Seizon
Yeah, this meta of people basically only make ASM is so unfun. I hate playing against SM because of that and I am SM myself. There is 0 diversity in the matchup.
Roibr
You have a pindown and a slow ability on Devastators...
Kharneth
It's not the Assault Marines that are overpowered, it's their overpowered sword :P
Overpowered, underpowered, perfectly balanced, I'll be spamming them until Khorne Berserkers arrive. I do hope something is done, though. I don't enjoy the feeling of rushing to get the power sword and I don't enjoy rushing the generator, turret, and power core with the ASM while the enemy army is busy elsewhere. I do it, I sort of feel like it's all I can do, but it's not really fun and when I don't do it I don't meet with much success.
PrimaGoosa
I need to get into some 3v3s to play around with counters. If all 3 armies don't just blob somewhere and give ASMs an opening, maybe you can actually defend.
steinernein
Pin is very buggy and the snare isn't going to matter when they jump on you and SLOW you down to engage in melee.
Pin also does ZERO damage. So, the only time this works is if you severely out number the ASMs. Devastators are 450 each. Even going 2 devastators and 1 tac marine you're probably going to lose against two ASMs. Unless... the tac marine has a flamer.
Also, pin gets broken if the ASMs decide to jump or hop.
Kharneth
This is usually the mistake the enemy makes. All you have to do is wait for the large blob of the 3 armies to push forward in any direction and the ASM can just destroy their empty base by themselves while your teammates do... anything really. As long as your team doesn't sit idly by doing nothing, the ASM can usually defeat an empty base faster than 3 armies can push through a single defender. Only in early game, though, if you wait too long it becomes much harder.
PrimaGoosa
I'd probably try mixing up devs and scouts, personally, and focus more on defending shield generators from under the turrets. Keep the devs split, keep high vision and anticipate stuns on top of the shield gens with scouts, and generally see what I can do.
steinernein
Personally, I think you should try out your suggestions or run through the math before replying and then think about how you're going to manage lane warfare vs asymmetrical warfare.
PrimaGoosa
I'm just spitballing ideas conversationally based on what I plan on trying when I get an opportunity to play. If you want to start demanding testing and mathematics to support every argument, then you should start with your own stream of consciousness that seems to do nothing more than attempt to prove your gut reaction of "this won't work".
steinernein
And I am just telling you that you should stop spitballing ideas in this thread because your ideas have been trash thus far and maybe you'll have better luck if you actually put some thought into it.
I already pointed out why the math doesn't work out, and why it defaults to playing from behind - you're just choosing to ignore it. Furthermore, in the context of 3v3s you're going to have to consider the meta and how you intend to maneuver around the map when your units take set up time hence the whole lane vs asymmetrical warfare thing.
Just do me a favor and let's not reply to one another from here on out in this thread. You, currently, have nothing to offer but half-baked ideas that people have already spent time grinding through (hint: read the Gamereplays forum and the Space Marine forum).
Elkantar1981
i play eldar i dont have problems with asm spam, actually its a freewin. when he got his first asm my banshee awaits. to counter asm it depends on your opening. the backdoor potential is pure antifun cheese i agree but when in 3v3 people push and defend their own lanes its nearly impossible for him to do that.
Bersercker
Eldar can counter early game ASM spam with striking scorpions which are even more OP. Just gotta not get tottaly wrecked till they can deploy. They can easily kill 2-3 squads of asm all by themselves.
PrimaGoosa
@steinernein
Do you always react this way to any sort of disagreement or even the slightest questioning of your thoughts/ideas? Your math was half-hearted at best, the meta appears to be sneaking ASMs back to shield generators/your base when your army is otherwise occupied (unless this isn't that big of a deal and isn't out of hand?), and I've always been one to test things myself instead of crutch on the theorycrafting of others.
So cheers to the folks over at Gamereplays.org who have already figured out all the answers. I have no idea who they are, how dedicated they are to testing, nor what constitutes "grinding it out" for them, so I have no idea why I should take it on faith that they did an appropriate job of hashing out all the details. And I'm not going to go chasing every online community someone points me towards as a reference for strategy.
If you don't want to go into any more detail, that's fine. I've already thought of potential issues to my idea before I even started playing, and I've started to think of how I can alleviate those issues.
But I'm not going to do you any favors just because you decided to get aggressive.
nerva2940
yeah, cuz if there are 3 SM hypothetically, you're dealing with 3x the ASM spam. pretty much every SM player is doing it now, and rate is increasing.
nerva2940
this just hasn't been my experience. Banshees and Scorps melt to 3+ ASM squads.
Sero
ASM --- > Fine? I mean yeah Eldar aren't exactly balanced but you would have to be a fool to call ASM fine.
Ekko_Tek
ASM are fine though - it's just the Ven Dread doctrine added jump ability and power swords in T1 for relatively cheap that need toning down.
grndmrshlgando
that's ++heresy redacted++. the game is terribly imba right now you can't just be like "git gud" the mechanics and gameplay currently heavily favor very specific builds
Stoner
I think Swords are much bigger problem than Ven jump. It doesn't do a lot of damage exactly, it's just basically third jump and not much else with pretty long cd. Why people freaking out about this so much? Banshees charge is way more powerful.
PrimaGoosa
Someone showed a gif of I believe 2 ASMs leaping over a couple squads of Dire Avengers that were clumped up, and the DAs melted. As far as I'm aware that's the genesis of this being a huge problem. Part of the issue was also a lack of counterplay since the jump happens instantly, and Banshees have a bit of a wind-up and move more slowly, iirc. It wasn't all about the damage, though damage was a complaint.
Setzaroth
Ven dred doctrine is useless. I grinded xp for it because it sounded good, but it really does nothing.
wongtp
lets clear up this misconception, its not as op as you think in team games.
powerswords dont win 3v3 games unless you are completely destroyed and outplayed.
powersword does nothing to regular infantry nor does it increases asm base damage.
with the greater amount of units on field, its so much easier to defend shield gens against asm in an even game.
so please as long as u have units to defend and fight on equal footing, theres no way for asm to bash shield gens easily or cut through ur infantry.
in fact, its better to save that power on arsenal and powerswords and get that 1st skimmer out early before anti tank weapons and go to town with it.
on the other hand, eldar.....high dps should always be coupled with high vulnerability.
Silveran
Yep a doctrine giving an already extremely good highly mobile melee unit another jump thats instant and causes 450 dmg totally does nothing, its just garbage compared to other doctrines.
Kharneth
So, in case people don't realize, the low flying sweep is an AOE and will do more damage the closer your units are. Not just if units are on top of each other, but if they're able to jump over the center of your unit it will do a lot more damage than if they hit the side of your unit. Part of that is on the SM player, but part of it is on you. If you're running away next to a wall and your unit is clumped up it will take a lot more damage than if it's standing out in the open fully spread.
I would much prefer that the low sweep ability has its damage nerfed as oppose to having its windup time increased. Their vertical jump takes so much time, I'm not sure how useful it actually is as an attack. If the doctrine didn't do so much damage it'd be a wonderful escape tool.
nerva2940
at the very least, it's a shitty state of the game. for an SM player, there's absolutely no reason to do anything else other than spam ASM until mid game.