@Kharneth said:
I don't understand who balanced Dire Avengers. They are 70 requisition cheaper than Space Marines and they kick the marines' asses.
Why does this make sense?
It makes sense when you factor in upgrades. 1 tsm can wipe the floor with 3 DA. With upgrades, is that fair?
You pay more cuz the tsm can adapt to a given situation.
Are u gonna tell me that dire avengers x1 has the capability to wipe three squads of tsm?
Hell, under optimal situations scouts/tsm can wipe the floor with any infantry threat when they are properly played. That is 200+400+flamer. Can wipe not 3 squads but probably more IS THAT FAIR ENOUGH FOR YOU?
@Kharneth said:
I don't understand who balanced Dire Avengers. They are 70 requisition cheaper than Space Marines and they kick the marines' asses.
Why does this make sense?
It makes sense when you factor in upgrades. 1 tsm can wipe the floor with 3 DA. With upgrades, is that fair?
You pay more cuz the tsm can adapt to a given situation.
Are u gonna tell me that dire avengers x1 has the capability to wipe three squads of tsm?
Hell, under optimal situations scouts/tsm can wipe the floor with any infantry threat when they are properly played. That is 200+400+flamer. Can wipe not 3 squads but probably more IS THAT FAIR ENOUGH FOR YOU?
QFT. Though you don't need Scouts for that. Just 1 TSM and bad blobbing pr pathing from Eldar and GG
@Elkantar1981 It's clear you didn't put any effort into reading this discussion so I won't any effort into responding to you, but okay.
@Vodacce The webway usually takes 10 seconds to relocate with a 90 second cooldown. The doctrine is suppose to make it relocate after 6 seconds with a 40 second cooldown. I recommend you get used to those numbers as that is the intention for the ability and it is still extremely powerful. If I were you, I'd make a webway portal once every escalation phase. You really don't need more than 2 or 3, especially if you are relocating them. At the beginning you'll be fine with a single one as long as it's placed well.
The further forward you place it the more you get out of it but the bigger of a risk you are taking, so that's really the trade off. I recommend placing it in stealth cover and if your forces are wiped you can simple relocate it behind the turret. 40 seconds is nothing. By the time you've regained forces you'll have your relocation back.
@Kharneth said: @Elkantar1981 It's clear you didn't put any effort into reading this discussion so I won't any effort into responding to you, but okay.
@Vodacce The webway usually takes 10 seconds to relocate with a 90 second cooldown. The doctrine is suppose to make it relocate after 6 seconds with a 40 second cooldown. I recommend you get used to those numbers as that is the intention for the ability and it is still extremely powerful. If I were you, I'd make a webway portal once every escalation phase. You really don't need more than 2 or 3, especially if you are relocating them. At the beginning you'll be fine with a single one as long as it's placed well.
The further forward you place it the more you get out of it but the bigger of a risk you are taking, so that's really the trade off. I recommend placing it in stealth cover and if your forces are wiped you can simple relocate it behind the turret. 40 seconds is nothing. By the time you've regained forces you'll have your relocation back.
I think we've sufficiently gone over the inaccuracy of comparing 1 unit to another unit. This game is more complicated than that.
Are u gonna tell me that dire avengers x1 has the capability to wipe three squads of tsm?
Did I say that? Did you read anything or did you just start reading until you got annoyed and then responded to an argument that was never claimed?
With a flamer you can kill as many dire avenger squads as your enemy clumps on top of itself, but lets be real. No one is having a hard time defeating noobs who blob their units on the same place.
@Kharneth said: @Elkantar1981 It's clear you didn't put any effort into reading this discussion so I won't any effort into responding to you, but okay.
@Vodacce The webway usually takes 10 seconds to relocate with a 90 second cooldown. The doctrine is suppose to make it relocate after 6 seconds with a 40 second cooldown. I recommend you get used to those numbers as that is the intention for the ability and it is still extremely powerful. If I were you, I'd make a webway portal once every escalation phase. You really don't need more than 2 or 3, especially if you are relocating them. At the beginning you'll be fine with a single one as long as it's placed well.
The further forward you place it the more you get out of it but the bigger of a risk you are taking, so that's really the trade off. I recommend placing it in stealth cover and if your forces are wiped you can simple relocate it behind the turret. 40 seconds is nothing. By the time you've regained forces you'll have your relocation back.
I think we've sufficiently gone over the inaccuracy of comparing 1 unit to another unit. This game is more complicated than that.
Comparing one unit to another isn't the be all end all, but it certainly doesn't have no place in balancing.
So exactly what is the problem? Tsm are pricey cuz of scaling capabilities.
And u got battle standard and drop pod for the first engagement, so that first engagement should not really be a issue?
Just cuz they are space marines does not justify you should be able to right click the enemy and be done with it.
@Kharneth It maybe sorta ok on small map. Even if in my opinion, it will be a really huge nerf on the eldar early game.I guess it could be somewhat manageable by playing a lot more passively.... hurray...
But on a 3vs3 map, 40 sec is abysmal. Where do you even build your 1st gate ? On 1st ressources point, then warp on mid to help the team but insta lose your side if your opponent push there ? On some map you need 2 warp to go from mid to your side... Should we build 2 gates in the first 3 min ? Yeah I don't think so. x)
Bleh, it's gonna be so boring.
Ho well, I guess I will keep my lane and leave to the SM the mobility part, after all, they fall from the sky lol. Bleh, it's gonna be so boring
@nidjuru I know, and I'm not saying that they should, but I do think seeing as they have no abilities to use they'd be stronger. I mean, I know that they get much better with special weapons, but why not reduce their base cost and increase the special weapon cost? I mean, a space marine squad with a flamer or plasma gun isn't 400 req, it's like ~460 req plus some power. So now they're even more expensive but can easily take down a DA squad. Where/when you pay the points seems off.
The banner is nice, it sure is. But with the banner's 3min CD and with the plasma gun and flamer abilities they feel like a bursty unit and that just feels backwards to me, but maybe it's just me. I'd expect Tactical Marines to be more consistent damage and not burst damage, that seems to fit Eldar's hit and run tactics more than space marines who are intended for holding the line.
@Vodacce I would recommend you pick a lane and stick to it. Either a lane with the proper resources (req or power) or the lane with the elite generator. Then after escalation 2 you can branch off to new lanes. I mean, were not playing Eldar without the webway doctrine to begin with in the first place? You're upset because you can't stack the same doctrine 3 times and that's really extremely unfair. The strategy you've grown accustom to was never suppose to exist in the first place, so you should feel lucky that you get to be cheesy now instead of feeling upset like Eldar are being nerfed. Correcting a bug is not the same thing as nerfing. 40 seconds is not abysmal at all. 40 seconds is extremely short. On 3v3 maps I'll push forward and take a new objective and while taking it I'll relocate my webway right to it. Then by the time that new objective gets sieged by the enemy it'll long after 40 seconds. Eldar were never suppose to run on a single webway portal.
Dire Avengers are amazing. Early game with the Wraithlord Command 3 avengers with a support WWG can cover a LOT of the map, hit and run very often and where they aren't wanted. It makes it very easy to establish a strong start from which to build out into whatever. I personally prefer DA into Vypers to just abuse my opponents resources until I can overwhelm with sheer mass of force.
My load out is Kyre (Presence), Wraithlord (Command), Wraith Knight (doesn't matter much to me honestly), Avenger Shield Doctrine, Avenger Stealth Doctrine, and either Avenger Grenades Doctrine or Vyper Speed Doctrine.
Once I unlock Striking Scorpion Command I'll probably opt out Avenger Shield or Grenades for a bit better scaling and objective pushing. Once I unlock the Wraithlord Command, that could adjust further but not 100% sure. Lord almost never makes an appearance, Knight rarely does...
TL;DR
Avengers are amazing for early game control, forces your opponent to build anti-infantry so you can t2 into skyway portal.
Can't wait for Deldar.
@Kharneth I never stacked the doctrine 3 times. And I'm not going to do it ever. Having it, once, was perfect for my taste.10 sec is ton of fun for me. You can go everywhere needed. Either to help a mate or pressure someone, and that's just the idea I had about those sassy eldars. Doing some guerilla fighting style or even just a commando action, warping your gate to allow one of your elite to do his his stuff.
In exemple, I find the bonesinger "abuse" way more busted (especially in 1vs1. Btw Eldar vs eldar is silly in that regard). I mean, force melee or ressources blocking... Yeah not cool.
To be perfectly honest, I'm more worryed about losing the play style I like than Eldar being...corrected ? Let's not say nerf then haha. Maybe, I'm being too much dramatic, we'll see.
@ModestToo I like the idea of DA into Vypers. I tried that sometimes but never was able to make it work. It seem I can't manage well the huge energy cost. We're talking about about around 520 energy here. For a small switch from DA to 3 vyper. It is what you do ? What are you cutting ? I guess you can cut few upgrades and delay the waithbuddies, how does it work ?
@Vodacce You are stacking it and that is why the cooldown is 10 seconds. The doctrine is bugged. You must be taking it as the Wraithlord doctrine instead of the army doctrine because I believe that is the bugged one. It is suppose to reduce the channel from 10 seconds to 6 seconds and the cooldown from 90 secs to 40 secs, however, the Wraithlord applies this buff twice making it a 2 sec channel with a 10 sec CD. But that's a bug. The bonesinger thing isn't even abuse, it's just a tactic. I do that with my servitor and my friend does it with his grots. Sure, our builders cannot teleport, but they are just as good at tying up enemy units so I can shoot them down. I've mostly abandoned this tactic now that my army is almost pure melee. I don't think anyone wants to ruin Eldar's playstyle, but do you really teleport your webway every 10 seconds? I don't even move every 10 seconds.
@Kharneth said: @Vodacce You are stacking it and that is why the cooldown is 10 seconds. The doctrine is bugged. You must be taking it as the Wraithlord doctrine instead of the army doctrine because I believe that is the bugged one. It is suppose to reduce the channel from 10 seconds to 6 seconds and the cooldown from 90 secs to 40 secs, however, the Wraithlord applies this buff twice making it a 2 sec channel with a 10 sec CD. But that's a bug. The bonesinger thing isn't even abuse, it's just a tactic. I do that with my servitor and my friend does it with his grots. Sure, our builders cannot teleport, but they are just as good at tying up enemy units so I can shoot them down. I've mostly abandoned this tactic now that my army is almost pure melee. I don't think anyone wants to ruin Eldar's playstyle, but do you really teleport your webway every 10 seconds? I don't even move every 10 seconds.
i don't believe the stacking is a bug - if u take double doctrine you get more benefits. the benefits may be overly generous to some - but i don't see the need to double stack the doctrine to begin with. there are better uses of doctrines than 2x webway teleport. i'd rather have an additional combat bonus rather than fast teleporting webways.
@Kharneth said: @Vodacce You are stacking it and that is why the cooldown is 10 seconds. The doctrine is bugged. You must be taking it as the Wraithlord doctrine instead of the army doctrine because I believe that is the bugged one. It is suppose to reduce the channel from 10 seconds to 6 seconds and the cooldown from 90 secs to 40 secs, however, the Wraithlord applies this buff twice making it a 2 sec channel with a 10 sec CD. But that's a bug. The bonesinger thing isn't even abuse, it's just a tactic. I do that with my servitor and my friend does it with his grots. Sure, our builders cannot teleport, but they are just as good at tying up enemy units so I can shoot them down. I've mostly abandoned this tactic now that my army is almost pure melee. I don't think anyone wants to ruin Eldar's playstyle, but do you really teleport your webway every 10 seconds? I don't even move every 10 seconds.
i don't believe the stacking is a bug - if u take double doctrine you get more benefits. the benefits may be overly generous to some - but i don't see the need to double stack the doctrine to begin with. there are better uses of doctrines than 2x webway teleport. i'd rather have an additional combat bonus rather than fast teleporting webways.
So. 1) Eldar doesn't need to take it twice in order to stack it twice. The Wraithlord doctrine is bugged and stacks with itself even if you take it once. 2) You cannot stack doctrines and should not be able to. If I took the Ven. Dread doctrine with the dreadnought and also as an army doctrine I wouldn't get 2 charges of the ASM sweep attack. If I took the blind+silence grenade doctrine as Johan and as an army doctrine I would not longer lasting grenades nor an additional charge. There are two issues here, the first is that it is bugged and is applied twice and the second is that it shouldn't be stackable.
I agree, though, I'd rather have a combat doctrine instead of stacking it. 40 sec CD is short enough.
@Kharneth said: @Vodacce You are stacking it and that is why the cooldown is 10 seconds. The doctrine is bugged. You must be taking it as the Wraithlord doctrine instead of the army doctrine because I believe that is the bugged one. It is suppose to reduce the channel from 10 seconds to 6 seconds and the cooldown from 90 secs to 40 secs, however, the Wraithlord applies this buff twice making it a 2 sec channel with a 10 sec CD. But that's a bug. The bonesinger thing isn't even abuse, it's just a tactic. I do that with my servitor and my friend does it with his grots. Sure, our builders cannot teleport, but they are just as good at tying up enemy units so I can shoot them down. I've mostly abandoned this tactic now that my army is almost pure melee. I don't think anyone wants to ruin Eldar's playstyle, but do you really teleport your webway every 10 seconds? I don't even move every 10 seconds.
i don't believe the stacking is a bug - if u take double doctrine you get more benefits. the benefits may be overly generous to some - but i don't see the need to double stack the doctrine to begin with. there are better uses of doctrines than 2x webway teleport. i'd rather have an additional combat bonus rather than fast teleporting webways.
So. 1) Eldar doesn't need to take it twice in order to stack it twice. The Wraithlord doctrine is bugged and stacks with itself even if you take it once. 2) You cannot stack doctrines and should not be able to. If I took the Ven. Dread doctrine with the dreadnought and also as an army doctrine I wouldn't get 2 charges of the ASM sweep attack. If I took the blind+silence grenade doctrine as Johan and as an army doctrine I would not longer lasting grenades nor an additional charge. There are two issues here, the first is that it is bugged and is applied twice and the second is that it shouldn't be stackable.
@Kharneth I'm almost never immobile with my army. The only time it happen is when I know for sure a fight will come soon at some location and I wait to make the engagement.
To be honest, overall I don't teleport the gate every 10 sec but when I go heavy on guerilla mode (wich is the actual fun part of the game for me) I teleport it about every 20sec. Even less if I want to cross the whole map. At least in T1 and T2.
I have to try to do the same with 2 gates locked behind a 40sec CD to see how it would handle. I don't like to have one more control group just for that though. I already don't have enough of them. >_<
I wouldn't mind to spend 2 doctrines to have the 10/2 sec status though.
@Vodacce said: @Kharneth I'm almost never immobile with my army. The only time it happen is when I know for sure a fight will come soon at some location and I wait to make the engagement.
To be honest, overall I don't teleport the gate every 10 sec but when I go heavy on guerilla mode (wich is the actual fun part of the game for me) I teleport it about every 20sec. Even less if I want to cross the whole map. At least in T1 and T2.
I have to try to do the same with 2 gates locked behind a 40sec CD to see how it would handle. I don't like to have one more control group just for that though. I already don't have enough of them. >_<
I wouldn't mind to spend 2 doctrines to have the 10/2 sec status though.
Hey, if stacking doctrines is allowed I'd love to have 2 charges on my ASM sweep attack. So whatever. I'm just saying, I don't think doctrines stack and I don't think they're suppose to.
I'm going to try this out today, too. For I know all of the doctrines are stackable.
@Kharneth said: @Elkantar1981 It's clear you didn't put any effort into reading this discussion so I won't any effort into responding to you, but okay.
@Vodacce The webway usually takes 10 seconds to relocate with a 90 second cooldown. The doctrine is suppose to make it relocate after 6 seconds with a 40 second cooldown. I recommend you get used to those numbers as that is the intention for the ability and it is still extremely powerful. If I were you, I'd make a webway portal once every escalation phase. You really don't need more than 2 or 3, especially if you are relocating them. At the beginning you'll be fine with a single one as long as it's placed well.
The further forward you place it the more you get out of it but the bigger of a risk you are taking, so that's really the trade off. I recommend placing it in stealth cover and if your forces are wiped you can simple relocate it behind the turret. 40 seconds is nothing. By the time you've regained forces you'll have your relocation back.
actually i read every post, and sorry i fully disagree with you. you have a problem with dire avengers, you have a problem with webway gate. and the real problem is you still compare 1 unit to another in an RTS game with a lot of units, doctrines, micro, playstyles, tactics and a bit of macro. the real point is that when you do that you totally ignore the rules of an rts game and the only true balance is that all people play mirror units aka banshees are like asm, tsm are like da and so on. what a fun this would be with just reskinned races and exactly the same stats so the balance comes up to your liking. when you would read my post beside the jokes at start about what is op and what not you will clearly see i talked about timings. since you are an experienced rts player you know quite well that timings are absolute important in the execution of tactics. when the devs feel something favours some races they will change it when it won'T hurt the race itself too much and your anti webway compared to the state of the meta, balance and game at the moment would actually just help nobody. you have to consider ressources spent, build times, possible timers of other races. no real rts with so many different playstyles for the races can fullfill the we compare 1 unit to another balance.
would you do that in sc2? and compare a protoss to a zerg unit 1v1? or would you compare ressource costs to ressource costs, build times for buildings and unit. or why was the 6 pool so strong vs non experienced players?
we agree on one point tsm need a slight buff early, either in cost reduction or a small dps boost.
about stacking doctrines, doctrines should never stack when they come from the same source aka elite unit and lvl 8 doctrine via army doctrine. but doctrines are your battle plan, your strategy. and when people invest doctrines to buff certain units/tactics you know you face them, and at this moment everything can be countered. I agree that somethings in this game need tweaks and balance changes since the effort spend to execute or use specific tactics is sometimes low risk high reward. such things have to be balanced. dire avengers is not low risk high reward actually the 2 da banshee opener is stronger in my experienced plays and still this is not the low risk high reward. the only true low risk high reward in 1v1 is da shee scorpion opener, and for space marines the asm openers.
i would also love to have the link or post where the webway gate doctrine cleary states your numbers, sadly we miss this in the tooltips of all our doctrines. and i hope the devs will put effort in this to correct it. since for theorycrafting we need the numbers on how high is the shield increase, how much more damage and all such things.
@Elkantar1981 I'm sorry but if you've read all of my posts and that is what you got than you misinterpreted a lot of what I wrote. I don't have a problem with dire avengers or with the webway doctrine. I compare all of the units with each other as well as combinations of units, prioritizing them by how often I see them used. This was one I wanted to make a post about.
I do not think the webway doctrine is too powerful, I think it's balanced but it is very good and I don't consider any of the other eldar doctrines as universally useful as that one. I don't like that it stacks, that's weird if intended.
I don't claim to be an RTS expert, in fact at one point, idk if it was here, I said that DoW is the only RTS that I play.
@Vodacce said:
With crowd control from the ASM many jumps, scout stun greande, drop pods, banner and flammer, I'm not to sure why the space marines should have troubles against DA. But I do agree, TSM are actualy close to useless and need more love.
I think DA are actualy fine, to make them that worth you have to place your gate and boost them with at the very least one doctrine, most of the time two.
So in the end, for the basic x3 DA starter you spend:
990 req from DA
150 req and 30 energy from the gate
1 doctrine for shield
1 doctrine for the grenade
1 doctrine for the gate
Total 1140 req, 30 energy, 3 doctrines.
I feel like most of you are asking that DA should be equal to their counterpart but the eldar should still have to spend all that ?
In my opinion, I would much rather see SM and Orks have new options as early game doctrine so as the eldars they could make the choice to strengthen their early game too.
What should have TSM ?
As general ideas, I would like to see them have cheaper, flammer/plasma.
What about the ability to have both, not at the same time, but the ability to switch on the fly to adapt for a given situation.(as a doctrine ?)
Maybe more melee dps ? (as a doctrine ?)
After all, TSM should be the backbone of any SM army and I feel like they are supposed to be a very adaptables.
Does the boys ability is actually working well ? If not, why ? Does their scrap ability is actualy usefull ?
No. This is not a proper argument. Don't just start adding stuff because you want to.
1 Dire Avenger unit with nothing. Nothing.
330 requsition. You send them alone to the center of the map. You don't even use their plasma grenade. They will defeat a unit of Tactical Marines easily. Add in the doctrines and the webway gate and it's just even more one sided, but I wouldn't waste my doctrines on dire avengers, personally.
Sooooo just tested this and the marines won. Both ranged and melee. So with no doctrines marines are better. Marines also have more utility. With flamethrower and plasma. On top of that they also have better doctrines. One wich allows yoyr marines to move at the speed of eldar with fleet of foot while out of combat.
Sooooo just tested this and the marines won. Both ranged and melee. So with no doctrines marines are better. Marines also have more utility. With flamethrower and plasma. On top of that they also have better doctrines. One wich allows yoyr marines to move at the speed of eldar with fleet of foot while out of combat.
Just out of interest, what was your methodology? It's nice to hear that people are experimenting before posting.
Sooooo just tested this and the marines won. Both ranged and melee. So with no doctrines marines are better. Marines also have more utility. With flamethrower and plasma. On top of that they also have better doctrines. One wich allows yoyr marines to move at the speed of eldar with fleet of foot while out of combat.
Just out of interest, what was your methodology? It's nice to hear that people are experimenting before posting.
I did one v one. I think the dire avenger op thing is coming from the fact that you fight 2 tm sqauds with 3 direavenger sqauds in the first battle. The standard counters this as it gives your guys sheilds and gives them uncreased movment not to mention shields from deop pod. Also servitors are faster then TM and can tie up a sqaud in the first engagment.
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nidjuru
It makes sense when you factor in upgrades. 1 tsm can wipe the floor with 3 DA. With upgrades, is that fair?
You pay more cuz the tsm can adapt to a given situation.
Are u gonna tell me that dire avengers x1 has the capability to wipe three squads of tsm?
Hell, under optimal situations scouts/tsm can wipe the floor with any infantry threat when they are properly played. That is 200+400+flamer. Can wipe not 3 squads but probably more IS THAT FAIR ENOUGH FOR YOU?
HohesHaus
QFT. Though you don't need Scouts for that. Just 1 TSM and bad blobbing pr pathing from Eldar and GG
Kharneth
@Elkantar1981 It's clear you didn't put any effort into reading this discussion so I won't any effort into responding to you, but okay.
@Vodacce The webway usually takes 10 seconds to relocate with a 90 second cooldown. The doctrine is suppose to make it relocate after 6 seconds with a 40 second cooldown. I recommend you get used to those numbers as that is the intention for the ability and it is still extremely powerful. If I were you, I'd make a webway portal once every escalation phase. You really don't need more than 2 or 3, especially if you are relocating them. At the beginning you'll be fine with a single one as long as it's placed well.
The further forward you place it the more you get out of it but the bigger of a risk you are taking, so that's really the trade off. I recommend placing it in stealth cover and if your forces are wiped you can simple relocate it behind the turret. 40 seconds is nothing. By the time you've regained forces you'll have your relocation back.
Galahad2017
I think we've sufficiently gone over the inaccuracy of comparing 1 unit to another unit. This game is more complicated than that.
Kharneth
Did I say that? Did you read anything or did you just start reading until you got annoyed and then responded to an argument that was never claimed?
With a flamer you can kill as many dire avenger squads as your enemy clumps on top of itself, but lets be real. No one is having a hard time defeating noobs who blob their units on the same place.
Kharneth
Comparing one unit to another isn't the be all end all, but it certainly doesn't have no place in balancing.
nidjuru
So exactly what is the problem? Tsm are pricey cuz of scaling capabilities.
And u got battle standard and drop pod for the first engagement, so that first engagement should not really be a issue?
Just cuz they are space marines does not justify you should be able to right click the enemy and be done with it.
Vodacce
@Kharneth It maybe sorta ok on small map. Even if in my opinion, it will be a really huge nerf on the eldar early game.I guess it could be somewhat manageable by playing a lot more passively.... hurray...
But on a 3vs3 map, 40 sec is abysmal. Where do you even build your 1st gate ? On 1st ressources point, then warp on mid to help the team but insta lose your side if your opponent push there ? On some map you need 2 warp to go from mid to your side... Should we build 2 gates in the first 3 min ? Yeah I don't think so. x)
Bleh, it's gonna be so boring.
Ho well, I guess I will keep my lane and leave to the SM the mobility part, after all, they fall from the sky lol. Bleh, it's gonna be so boring
Yeah it's making me sad. Don't mind me. T_T
Kharneth
@nidjuru I know, and I'm not saying that they should, but I do think seeing as they have no abilities to use they'd be stronger. I mean, I know that they get much better with special weapons, but why not reduce their base cost and increase the special weapon cost? I mean, a space marine squad with a flamer or plasma gun isn't 400 req, it's like ~460 req plus some power. So now they're even more expensive but can easily take down a DA squad. Where/when you pay the points seems off.
The banner is nice, it sure is. But with the banner's 3min CD and with the plasma gun and flamer abilities they feel like a bursty unit and that just feels backwards to me, but maybe it's just me. I'd expect Tactical Marines to be more consistent damage and not burst damage, that seems to fit Eldar's hit and run tactics more than space marines who are intended for holding the line.
@Vodacce I would recommend you pick a lane and stick to it. Either a lane with the proper resources (req or power) or the lane with the elite generator. Then after escalation 2 you can branch off to new lanes. I mean, were not playing Eldar without the webway doctrine to begin with in the first place? You're upset because you can't stack the same doctrine 3 times and that's really extremely unfair. The strategy you've grown accustom to was never suppose to exist in the first place, so you should feel lucky that you get to be cheesy now instead of feeling upset like Eldar are being nerfed. Correcting a bug is not the same thing as nerfing. 40 seconds is not abysmal at all. 40 seconds is extremely short. On 3v3 maps I'll push forward and take a new objective and while taking it I'll relocate my webway right to it. Then by the time that new objective gets sieged by the enemy it'll long after 40 seconds. Eldar were never suppose to run on a single webway portal.
ModestToo
Not sure if this is still relevant:
Dire Avengers are amazing. Early game with the Wraithlord Command 3 avengers with a support WWG can cover a LOT of the map, hit and run very often and where they aren't wanted. It makes it very easy to establish a strong start from which to build out into whatever. I personally prefer DA into Vypers to just abuse my opponents resources until I can overwhelm with sheer mass of force.
My load out is Kyre (Presence), Wraithlord (Command), Wraith Knight (doesn't matter much to me honestly), Avenger Shield Doctrine, Avenger Stealth Doctrine, and either Avenger Grenades Doctrine or Vyper Speed Doctrine.
Once I unlock Striking Scorpion Command I'll probably opt out Avenger Shield or Grenades for a bit better scaling and objective pushing. Once I unlock the Wraithlord Command, that could adjust further but not 100% sure. Lord almost never makes an appearance, Knight rarely does...
TL;DR
Avengers are amazing for early game control, forces your opponent to build anti-infantry so you can t2 into skyway portal.
Can't wait for Deldar.
Vodacce
@Kharneth I never stacked the doctrine 3 times. And I'm not going to do it ever. Having it, once, was perfect for my taste.10 sec is ton of fun for me. You can go everywhere needed. Either to help a mate or pressure someone, and that's just the idea I had about those sassy eldars. Doing some guerilla fighting style or even just a commando action, warping your gate to allow one of your elite to do his his stuff.
In exemple, I find the bonesinger "abuse" way more busted (especially in 1vs1. Btw Eldar vs eldar is silly in that regard). I mean, force melee or ressources blocking... Yeah not cool.
To be perfectly honest, I'm more worryed about losing the play style I like than Eldar being...corrected ? Let's not say nerf then haha. Maybe, I'm being too much dramatic, we'll see.
@ModestToo I like the idea of DA into Vypers. I tried that sometimes but never was able to make it work. It seem I can't manage well the huge energy cost. We're talking about about around 520 energy here. For a small switch from DA to 3 vyper. It is what you do ? What are you cutting ? I guess you can cut few upgrades and delay the waithbuddies, how does it work ?
We are very off topic huhu. Sorry about that. =p
Kharneth
@Vodacce You are stacking it and that is why the cooldown is 10 seconds. The doctrine is bugged. You must be taking it as the Wraithlord doctrine instead of the army doctrine because I believe that is the bugged one. It is suppose to reduce the channel from 10 seconds to 6 seconds and the cooldown from 90 secs to 40 secs, however, the Wraithlord applies this buff twice making it a 2 sec channel with a 10 sec CD. But that's a bug. The bonesinger thing isn't even abuse, it's just a tactic. I do that with my servitor and my friend does it with his grots. Sure, our builders cannot teleport, but they are just as good at tying up enemy units so I can shoot them down. I've mostly abandoned this tactic now that my army is almost pure melee. I don't think anyone wants to ruin Eldar's playstyle, but do you really teleport your webway every 10 seconds? I don't even move every 10 seconds.
Galahad2017
i don't believe the stacking is a bug - if u take double doctrine you get more benefits. the benefits may be overly generous to some - but i don't see the need to double stack the doctrine to begin with. there are better uses of doctrines than 2x webway teleport. i'd rather have an additional combat bonus rather than fast teleporting webways.
Kharneth
So. 1) Eldar doesn't need to take it twice in order to stack it twice. The Wraithlord doctrine is bugged and stacks with itself even if you take it once. 2) You cannot stack doctrines and should not be able to. If I took the Ven. Dread doctrine with the dreadnought and also as an army doctrine I wouldn't get 2 charges of the ASM sweep attack. If I took the blind+silence grenade doctrine as Johan and as an army doctrine I would not longer lasting grenades nor an additional charge. There are two issues here, the first is that it is bugged and is applied twice and the second is that it shouldn't be stackable.
I agree, though, I'd rather have a combat doctrine instead of stacking it. 40 sec CD is short enough.
Galahad2017
i see. thanks for clarifying.
Vodacce
@Kharneth I'm almost never immobile with my army. The only time it happen is when I know for sure a fight will come soon at some location and I wait to make the engagement.
To be honest, overall I don't teleport the gate every 10 sec but when I go heavy on guerilla mode (wich is the actual fun part of the game for me) I teleport it about every 20sec. Even less if I want to cross the whole map. At least in T1 and T2.
I have to try to do the same with 2 gates locked behind a 40sec CD to see how it would handle. I don't like to have one more control group just for that though. I already don't have enough of them. >_<
I wouldn't mind to spend 2 doctrines to have the 10/2 sec status though.
Kharneth
Hey, if stacking doctrines is allowed I'd love to have 2 charges on my ASM sweep attack. So whatever. I'm just saying, I don't think doctrines stack and I don't think they're suppose to.
I'm going to try this out today, too. For I know all of the doctrines are stackable.
Vodacce
@Kharneth Good point, that's fair. T_T
Elkantar1981
actually i read every post, and sorry i fully disagree with you. you have a problem with dire avengers, you have a problem with webway gate. and the real problem is you still compare 1 unit to another in an RTS game with a lot of units, doctrines, micro, playstyles, tactics and a bit of macro. the real point is that when you do that you totally ignore the rules of an rts game and the only true balance is that all people play mirror units aka banshees are like asm, tsm are like da and so on. what a fun this would be with just reskinned races and exactly the same stats so the balance comes up to your liking. when you would read my post beside the jokes at start about what is op and what not you will clearly see i talked about timings. since you are an experienced rts player you know quite well that timings are absolute important in the execution of tactics. when the devs feel something favours some races they will change it when it won'T hurt the race itself too much and your anti webway compared to the state of the meta, balance and game at the moment would actually just help nobody. you have to consider ressources spent, build times, possible timers of other races. no real rts with so many different playstyles for the races can fullfill the we compare 1 unit to another balance.
would you do that in sc2? and compare a protoss to a zerg unit 1v1? or would you compare ressource costs to ressource costs, build times for buildings and unit. or why was the 6 pool so strong vs non experienced players?
we agree on one point tsm need a slight buff early, either in cost reduction or a small dps boost.
about stacking doctrines, doctrines should never stack when they come from the same source aka elite unit and lvl 8 doctrine via army doctrine. but doctrines are your battle plan, your strategy. and when people invest doctrines to buff certain units/tactics you know you face them, and at this moment everything can be countered. I agree that somethings in this game need tweaks and balance changes since the effort spend to execute or use specific tactics is sometimes low risk high reward. such things have to be balanced. dire avengers is not low risk high reward actually the 2 da banshee opener is stronger in my experienced plays and still this is not the low risk high reward. the only true low risk high reward in 1v1 is da shee scorpion opener, and for space marines the asm openers.
i would also love to have the link or post where the webway gate doctrine cleary states your numbers, sadly we miss this in the tooltips of all our doctrines. and i hope the devs will put effort in this to correct it. since for theorycrafting we need the numbers on how high is the shield increase, how much more damage and all such things.
Kharneth
@Elkantar1981 I'm sorry but if you've read all of my posts and that is what you got than you misinterpreted a lot of what I wrote. I don't have a problem with dire avengers or with the webway doctrine. I compare all of the units with each other as well as combinations of units, prioritizing them by how often I see them used. This was one I wanted to make a post about.
I do not think the webway doctrine is too powerful, I think it's balanced but it is very good and I don't consider any of the other eldar doctrines as universally useful as that one. I don't like that it stacks, that's weird if intended.
I don't claim to be an RTS expert, in fact at one point, idk if it was here, I said that DoW is the only RTS that I play.
Brick57
Sooooo just tested this and the marines won. Both ranged and melee. So with no doctrines marines are better. Marines also have more utility. With flamethrower and plasma. On top of that they also have better doctrines. One wich allows yoyr marines to move at the speed of eldar with fleet of foot while out of combat.
Svanh
Just out of interest, what was your methodology? It's nice to hear that people are experimenting before posting.
Brick57
I did one v one. I think the dire avenger op thing is coming from the fact that you fight 2 tm sqauds with 3 direavenger sqauds in the first battle. The standard counters this as it gives your guys sheilds and gives them uncreased movment not to mention shields from deop pod. Also servitors are faster then TM and can tie up a sqaud in the first engagment.