Are you referring to the doctrine for viper mines or something? Cause their regular attack is pretty useless imo. Gotta try using that doctine i guess.
Im referring to the doctrine that makes them do aoe damage, cant remember if its the same that u say.
I'm still battle testing Vypers. I've taken down 3 landspeeders with 3 vypers with no losses in a game. They are not the anti-infantry unit that landspeeders are, but they have better anti-vehicle ability compared to other skimmers. If you in a resource capture point battle they can really take out generators fast in groups of 3+.
I tried spamming vipers with scorpions present several times and wasn't impressed. Falcon is an order of magnitude better imo, unless you build vipers specifically to counter landspeeders or something i guess. Maybe the AoE scales with scorpion's level and stacks with army doctrine like the wraithlord's one?
Scorpions themselves are retardedly OP though. OMG Relic.
I tried spamming vipers with scorpions present several times and wasn't impressed. Falcon is an order of magnitude better imo, unless you build vipers specifically to counter landspeeders or something i guess. Maybe the AoE scales with scorpion's level and stacks with army doctrine like the wraithlord's one?
Scorpions themselves are retardedly OP though. OMG Relic.
Its not about spamming Vipers just suck at big battles, its about building 5 and going to all places where there is not an army, destroy listeing posts, obliterate groups that run back, look for isolated units, etc.
You dont know how munch u can hurt the opponent until u see it.
I tried spamming vipers with scorpions present several times and wasn't impressed. Falcon is an order of magnitude better imo, unless you build vipers specifically to counter landspeeders or something i guess. Maybe the AoE scales with scorpion's level and stacks with army doctrine like the wraithlord's one?
Scorpions themselves are retardedly OP though. OMG Relic.
Its not about spamming Vipers just suck at big battles, its about building 5 and going to all places where there is not an army, destroy listeing posts, obliterate groups that run back, look for isolated units, etc.
You dont know how munch u can hurt the opponent until u see it.
I tried spamming vipers with scorpions present several times and wasn't impressed. Falcon is an order of magnitude better imo, unless you build vipers specifically to counter landspeeders or something i guess. Maybe the AoE scales with scorpion's level and stacks with army doctrine like the wraithlord's one?
Scorpions themselves are retardedly OP though. OMG Relic.
Its not about spamming Vipers just suck at big battles, its about building 5 and going to all places where there is not an army, destroy listeing posts, obliterate groups that run back, look for isolated units, etc.
You dont know how munch u can hurt the opponent until u see it.
Em, five? Thats like 625 power and requsition just to harass LP's? Dunno, might as well send a falcon instead. 2 falcons will make short work of any army without sufficient anti vehicle units too, which it doesn's seem like what vipers can do.
Vypers are for map control. Falcons are anti-infantry support. the equivalent of a very expensive landspeeder. also it can carry units that are slow like dark reapers that have high damage onto the battlefield to assist a battle in progress. if they are used as reinforcements to support your main army they are quite effective.
Actually, the land speeder is more expensive than the Vyper but the utily and stats from the vyper is nowhere near.
Vyper: 125 req 125 pow / 500hp Heavy armor (125 from shield) / 20 true damage DPS
Land speeder: 175 req 175 pow / 700hp Heavy armor / 74 normal DPS
I think nobody will argue that the utility from the slow device can compare to the multi-melta either.
As a supposed anti-infantry unit, the true damage mean nothing against light armor so with 20DPS they do half less damage than a DA squad, and they are so fragile they can't pick a fight against any heavy armor unit either. Frankly they are not that good at genenarator bashing either but it's about all they can do to use their good mobility.
You can make them moderately better with a doctrine or two but I can't see it being really worth it.
I'm still waiting to be impress by those guys though... Someday...
@Vodacce said:
Actually, the land speeder is more expensive than the Vyper but the utily and stats from the vyper is nowhere near.
Vyper: 125 req 125 pow / 500hp Heavy armor (125 from shield) / 20 true damage DPS
Land speeder: 175 req 175 pow / 700hp Heavy armor / 74 normal DPS
I think nobody will argue that the utility from the slow device can compare to the multi-melta either.
As a supposed anti-infantry unit, the true damage mean nothing against light armor so with 20DPS they do half less damage than a DA squad, and they are so fragile they can't pick a fight against any heavy armor unit either. Frankly they are not that good at genenarator bashing either but it's about all they can do to use their good mobility.
You can make them moderately better with a doctrine or two but I can't see it being really worth it.
I'm still waiting to be impress by those guys though... Someday...
i don't think that's entirely accurate. i've taken down 3 standard landspeeders with 3 vypers with no losses before. their missile launcher does AP i believe and it also does way more than 20 dps vs landspeeders. Vypers in groups of 2 can easily take down generators fast, groups of 3 can take down improved LPs.
in lore they are anti-infantry AND anti-vehicle. in this game they are sorta neither.
i feel their speed should make them 30% dodge while in motion or something.
@Galahad2017 This is very true, you can verify in game. They actually have 20DPS. This is low because with their true damage they do equally good (bad ?) against heavy or light armor. But as I said, it doesn't matter.
You can fight land speeder with vyper if they don't have the multi-melta. If they do, not a chance. I tried against a friend in some test game we did, just to see how perform some units and to see some matchup. It's very instructive.
Try it and prove me wrong. If I did some mistake I would gladly change my mind !
I think there is one point where the Vyper beat the land speeder by far. The vyper is way more cool looking ! That's something right ?
Before I invest 450 Energy in Vyper I would invest them in Wraithguards and kill the enemy tower to get an advantage. I think they are as same as Falcon, when you are on the lead, they can humilate the enemy. If you don't build you win also.
Sky Portal vehicles have their uses. You have to determine what's best based on the flow of battle and your opponent(s).
Falcon
Really good fire support and front line reinforcement point for you and your allies if you are not getting the reinforce for webway upgrade. Good for harassing with some loaded banshees or reapers. These can sit up front behind your line units for a little before having to fall back. Micro this skimmer a lot to prevent too much damage.
Vypers
Extremely good in 3v3s. They can hit back behind enemy lines and take out economy components. Really good and harassing shield generators and armies that don't have any anti armor weapons yet. Do not engage them in head to head fights ever. They will lose to massed fire. Use them as hit and run while you are battling the opposing enemy's main force. Pick off retreating units. They're really good in small groups 3-6. If you don't mind a suicide mission, run a vyper along your lines to plant the slow down to help avoid melee units.
Fire Prism
It's....ok. That's about all I can say. It can siege enemy turrets once you get to that point. It's pretty ok at defending provided it's back far enough from the front line. You have to really pay attention and micro it though as it is paper thin and you need to prioritize its targets. Make sure you're hitting enemy vehicles or units with setup times. The doctrine that silences/slows units with its explosion is definitely nice, but I find it annoying at how long the secondary explosion takes to trigger. Super expensive vehicle though....not really worth it unless you are really desperate for some long range anti armor or disruption that is sub par.
@HohesHaus said:
Before I invest 450 Energy in Vyper I would invest them in Wraithguards and kill the enemy tower to get an advantage. I think they are as same as Falcon, when you are on the lead, they can humilate the enemy. If you don't build you win also.
QFT, I prefer WG to Vypers, not nearly as much power required, a doctrine that allows them to vaporize infantry, Soul Recall if you're in a pinch. And can kill buildings and base assets ridiculously fast and get out in quick order with the right doctrine and micro. Eldar vehicles need a vast improvement at the moment.
Fire Prism is next to worthless with it's lack of range, the time it takes explosion to go off is dumb. They're way too fragile for what they cost and what they do. Vypers cost too much for what they are, True Damage sure, but if it had 40 - 50 dps or a reduction in power required to produce, then we could talk. Falcons are the only vehicle that seems to be worth anything, really good vs. inf., but useless for troop transportation. With certain doctrines equipped on elites or in army getting units around the map isn't a problem. Bone singer port >> port Warrior Portal send army through >> kill. Guess wrong, you lose a bone singer/ possibly Warrior portal, you don't even lose the reqs to equal a squad. Guess wrong with a Falcon loaded with Shees and DR? Just add that up. This is why Eldar have webway links and teleportation, ferrying troops around is kind of second fiddle to these other, better methods.
It really seems the investment and the doctrines for the entire Sky Portal set of units is just poor, let alone compared to the other 2 races who eventually use those units as their core army. The anti-skimmer bonuses combined with lower health, worse health scaling, and strange generalist roles really hurts the Sky Portal units as a whole.
-The entire point of the Sky Portal seems to be as a rush counter to specific infantry strats (example ASM), outside of which the sky portal is fairly terrible, it also does't help that the sky portal doesn't lead to other useful units (example predators or big trakks)
-Lets examine the Vyper. Their doctrines are fairly terrible, the AoE assumes they are fighting squads, which they generally don't want to be doing, while increasing the mine sounds great, but you are already SUPER HAPPY to just have the mine hit period, who cares about an additional stun. The planting of mines sounds neat, the area of it is quite small though and I have had 3v3 games where I planted upwards of 10 mines and due to the small size enemy never walked over any somehow. The one doctrine that sounds neat is the extra speed on shield break, but lets be real, you don't want to wait til your shields break to pull back, you want to pull back at low shields, so pretty terrible overall for having FOUR doctrines. I mean the one use is picking off back LPs/gens...but it has true damage so 4 vypers are doing the same job as a single land speeder or 3 vypers doing less damage then 2 kopters who are cheaper.
-Falcon is fairly neat. Has some uses in rushing to stop certain infantry only builds and can help reinforce, the transporting is so suspect on a 275 power unit, I mean you are either transporting Dark Reapers or Wraithguard, both of which are slow and expensive. Outside of these rush strats the Falcon just doesn't hold up in areal combat, let alone for the absurd cost of getting a single 1. The doctrines for it are ok, increased speed is decent, but I honestly never noticed the difference while trying it out in games and the shield can be useful as it allows the Falcon to actually be able to fight assuming it doesn't auto die to longer range anti-skimmer counter units.
-Fire Prism. There is an entire thread somewhere on this model and how terrible it is. Basically it becomes decent to good with all the doctrines and just helps you throw outside of that.
just my 2 cents about the balance of eldar vehicles and their timings/ressource cost, Sadly they are to expensive for what they offer.When we consider cost for the portal and production timings we clearly see as already stated that they are a costly luxury which in 90% of the cases won't give you a true tactical advantage over the enemy. Especially our "late" arty once tank fire prism is too bad. Maybe we can get the illum zar from dow2 back ? A buffed wraith (both ment) is atm much stronger then a buffed falcon in escalation 1 when you first field them.
@Silveran said:
-Lets examine the Vyper. Their doctrines are fairly terrible, the AoE assumes they are fighting squads, which they generally don't want to be doing, while increasing the mine sounds great, but you are already SUPER HAPPY to just have the mine hit period, who cares about an additional stun. The planting of mines sounds neat, the area of it is quite small though and I have had 3v3 games where I planted upwards of 10 mines and due to the small size enemy never walked over any somehow. The one doctrine that sounds neat is the extra speed on shield break, but lets be real, you don't want to wait til your shields break to pull back, you want to pull back at low shields, so pretty terrible overall for having FOUR doctrines. I mean the one use is picking off back LPs/gens...but it has true damage so 4 vypers are doing the same job as a single land speeder or 3 vypers doing less damage then 2 kopters who are cheaper.
The big problem with the Vyper is that it simply doesn't have the damage and nothing it has can make up for that. Slow bombs seem really useful against an Ork without Trukks but the extremely low range means that you have to have the most vulnerable units in your army at the front. They could still be useful as a guerilla force if they had the burst damage but their missiles only do 85 damage a shot so you need four or five (costing 500/500 or 625/625) before burst damage is really a thing. Add the poor health scaling and their ability to be one-shot by Predators to that and you have a unit almost as bad as the Fire Prism.
Vypers are meant to harass the enemy economy. Ok you have to build the Portal 300/100 I guess, and four of them for 500/500 that means 800/600. For that you can build 4 Workers for 200, Tech to T3 for 200/200 and you can spend the remaining 400/400 on Webway Portals to teleport around to harras the enemy economy. Surplus you unlock the Storm. You can even let the Tech aside, and work with Baracks on T2 to teleport around.
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Comments
leinad
Im referring to the doctrine that makes them do aoe damage, cant remember if its the same that u say.
Galahad2017
Striking Scorptions level 3 doctrine
Galahad2017
I'm still battle testing Vypers. I've taken down 3 landspeeders with 3 vypers with no losses in a game. They are not the anti-infantry unit that landspeeders are, but they have better anti-vehicle ability compared to other skimmers. If you in a resource capture point battle they can really take out generators fast in groups of 3+.
Galahad2017
also make sure to get the vehicle damage upgrades/shield upgrades. they seem to help.
Gleap
The only reason to build the sky portal is if you want to waste resources. Garbage structure is garbage.
Bersercker
I tried spamming vipers with scorpions present several times and wasn't impressed.
Falcon is an order of magnitude better imo, unless you build vipers specifically to counter landspeeders or something i guess. Maybe the AoE scales with scorpion's level and stacks with army doctrine like the wraithlord's one?
Scorpions themselves are retardedly OP though. OMG Relic.
leinad
Its not about spamming Vipers just suck at big battles, its about building 5 and going to all places where there is not an army, destroy listeing posts, obliterate groups that run back, look for isolated units, etc.
You dont know how munch u can hurt the opponent until u see it.
HohesHaus
Do you have a replay?
leinad
I dont save them srry, will try to get one and upload it.
Bersercker
Em, five? Thats like 625 power and requsition just to harass LP's? Dunno, might as well send a falcon instead. 2 falcons will make short work of any army without sufficient anti vehicle units too, which it doesn's seem like what vipers can do.
Galahad2017
Vypers are for map control. Falcons are anti-infantry support. the equivalent of a very expensive landspeeder. also it can carry units that are slow like dark reapers that have high damage onto the battlefield to assist a battle in progress. if they are used as reinforcements to support your main army they are quite effective.
Vodacce
Actually, the land speeder is more expensive than the Vyper but the utily and stats from the vyper is nowhere near.
Vyper: 125 req 125 pow / 500hp Heavy armor (125 from shield) / 20 true damage DPS
Land speeder: 175 req 175 pow / 700hp Heavy armor / 74 normal DPS
I think nobody will argue that the utility from the slow device can compare to the multi-melta either.
As a supposed anti-infantry unit, the true damage mean nothing against light armor so with 20DPS they do half less damage than a DA squad, and they are so fragile they can't pick a fight against any heavy armor unit either. Frankly they are not that good at genenarator bashing either but it's about all they can do to use their good mobility.
You can make them moderately better with a doctrine or two but I can't see it being really worth it.
I'm still waiting to be impress by those guys though... Someday...
Galahad2017
i don't think that's entirely accurate. i've taken down 3 standard landspeeders with 3 vypers with no losses before. their missile launcher does AP i believe and it also does way more than 20 dps vs landspeeders. Vypers in groups of 2 can easily take down generators fast, groups of 3 can take down improved LPs.
in lore they are anti-infantry AND anti-vehicle. in this game they are sorta neither.
i feel their speed should make them 30% dodge while in motion or something.
that might fix skimmers in general.
Vodacce
@Galahad2017 This is very true, you can verify in game. They actually have 20DPS. This is low because with their true damage they do equally good (bad ?) against heavy or light armor. But as I said, it doesn't matter.
You can fight land speeder with vyper if they don't have the multi-melta. If they do, not a chance. I tried against a friend in some test game we did, just to see how perform some units and to see some matchup. It's very instructive.
Try it and prove me wrong. If I did some mistake I would gladly change my mind !
I think there is one point where the Vyper beat the land speeder by far. The vyper is way more cool looking ! That's something right ?
HohesHaus
Before I invest 450 Energy in Vyper I would invest them in Wraithguards and kill the enemy tower to get an advantage. I think they are as same as Falcon, when you are on the lead, they can humilate the enemy. If you don't build you win also.
Paradigm
Sky Portal vehicles have their uses. You have to determine what's best based on the flow of battle and your opponent(s).
Falcon
Really good fire support and front line reinforcement point for you and your allies if you are not getting the reinforce for webway upgrade. Good for harassing with some loaded banshees or reapers. These can sit up front behind your line units for a little before having to fall back. Micro this skimmer a lot to prevent too much damage.
Vypers
Extremely good in 3v3s. They can hit back behind enemy lines and take out economy components. Really good and harassing shield generators and armies that don't have any anti armor weapons yet. Do not engage them in head to head fights ever. They will lose to massed fire. Use them as hit and run while you are battling the opposing enemy's main force. Pick off retreating units. They're really good in small groups 3-6. If you don't mind a suicide mission, run a vyper along your lines to plant the slow down to help avoid melee units.
Fire Prism
It's....ok. That's about all I can say. It can siege enemy turrets once you get to that point. It's pretty ok at defending provided it's back far enough from the front line. You have to really pay attention and micro it though as it is paper thin and you need to prioritize its targets. Make sure you're hitting enemy vehicles or units with setup times. The doctrine that silences/slows units with its explosion is definitely nice, but I find it annoying at how long the secondary explosion takes to trigger. Super expensive vehicle though....not really worth it unless you are really desperate for some long range anti armor or disruption that is sub par.
Nergal
QFT, I prefer WG to Vypers, not nearly as much power required, a doctrine that allows them to vaporize infantry, Soul Recall if you're in a pinch. And can kill buildings and base assets ridiculously fast and get out in quick order with the right doctrine and micro. Eldar vehicles need a vast improvement at the moment.
Fire Prism is next to worthless with it's lack of range, the time it takes explosion to go off is dumb. They're way too fragile for what they cost and what they do. Vypers cost too much for what they are, True Damage sure, but if it had 40 - 50 dps or a reduction in power required to produce, then we could talk. Falcons are the only vehicle that seems to be worth anything, really good vs. inf., but useless for troop transportation. With certain doctrines equipped on elites or in army getting units around the map isn't a problem. Bone singer port >> port Warrior Portal send army through >> kill. Guess wrong, you lose a bone singer/ possibly Warrior portal, you don't even lose the reqs to equal a squad. Guess wrong with a Falcon loaded with Shees and DR? Just add that up. This is why Eldar have webway links and teleportation, ferrying troops around is kind of second fiddle to these other, better methods.
Silveran
It really seems the investment and the doctrines for the entire Sky Portal set of units is just poor, let alone compared to the other 2 races who eventually use those units as their core army. The anti-skimmer bonuses combined with lower health, worse health scaling, and strange generalist roles really hurts the Sky Portal units as a whole.
-The entire point of the Sky Portal seems to be as a rush counter to specific infantry strats (example ASM), outside of which the sky portal is fairly terrible, it also does't help that the sky portal doesn't lead to other useful units (example predators or big trakks)
-Lets examine the Vyper. Their doctrines are fairly terrible, the AoE assumes they are fighting squads, which they generally don't want to be doing, while increasing the mine sounds great, but you are already SUPER HAPPY to just have the mine hit period, who cares about an additional stun. The planting of mines sounds neat, the area of it is quite small though and I have had 3v3 games where I planted upwards of 10 mines and due to the small size enemy never walked over any somehow. The one doctrine that sounds neat is the extra speed on shield break, but lets be real, you don't want to wait til your shields break to pull back, you want to pull back at low shields, so pretty terrible overall for having FOUR doctrines. I mean the one use is picking off back LPs/gens...but it has true damage so 4 vypers are doing the same job as a single land speeder or 3 vypers doing less damage then 2 kopters who are cheaper.
-Falcon is fairly neat. Has some uses in rushing to stop certain infantry only builds and can help reinforce, the transporting is so suspect on a 275 power unit, I mean you are either transporting Dark Reapers or Wraithguard, both of which are slow and expensive. Outside of these rush strats the Falcon just doesn't hold up in areal combat, let alone for the absurd cost of getting a single 1. The doctrines for it are ok, increased speed is decent, but I honestly never noticed the difference while trying it out in games and the shield can be useful as it allows the Falcon to actually be able to fight assuming it doesn't auto die to longer range anti-skimmer counter units.
-Fire Prism. There is an entire thread somewhere on this model and how terrible it is. Basically it becomes decent to good with all the doctrines and just helps you throw outside of that.
Elkantar1981
WE have Vehicles?
What is the Sky Portal?
just my 2 cents about the balance of eldar vehicles and their timings/ressource cost, Sadly they are to expensive for what they offer.When we consider cost for the portal and production timings we clearly see as already stated that they are a costly luxury which in 90% of the cases won't give you a true tactical advantage over the enemy. Especially our "late" arty once tank fire prism is too bad. Maybe we can get the illum zar from dow2 back ? A buffed wraith (both ment) is atm much stronger then a buffed falcon in escalation 1 when you first field them.
Svanh
The big problem with the Vyper is that it simply doesn't have the damage and nothing it has can make up for that. Slow bombs seem really useful against an Ork without Trukks but the extremely low range means that you have to have the most vulnerable units in your army at the front. They could still be useful as a guerilla force if they had the burst damage but their missiles only do 85 damage a shot so you need four or five (costing 500/500 or 625/625) before burst damage is really a thing. Add the poor health scaling and their ability to be one-shot by Predators to that and you have a unit almost as bad as the Fire Prism.
HohesHaus
Vypers are meant to harass the enemy economy. Ok you have to build the Portal 300/100 I guess, and four of them for 500/500 that means 800/600. For that you can build 4 Workers for 200, Tech to T3 for 200/200 and you can spend the remaining 400/400 on Webway Portals to teleport around to harras the enemy economy. Surplus you unlock the Storm. You can even let the Tech aside, and work with Baracks on T2 to teleport around.