Clearly you have no idea how the TT game is played.
Indeed, played just once or twice ages ago. But read your post again and you'll see you've just explained why the gazillion combinations allowed by the TT point system does not translate to an RTS
For example, the enemy needs to be able to see at a glance what units are you fielding, and know what they pack (in fact I don't like flamer tacs are so hard to spot).
Also, reading some other posts from other TT players, doesn't seem the TT is an epitome of balance anyway.
That's not to say that it would be cool that basic line units had some T2 option to make them scale better (ie burnas for boyz).
@redScare You're certainly right that the TT is not the epitome of balance, but it should be, in my opinion, the place you'd start when designing a 40k RTS.
So, one issue with DoW3 is that you can't see the flamers. The flamer does not exist unless the enemy is using the flamer ability. The marine that uses the flamer is using a bolter when not using a flamer, so it's literally impossible to see him. This is one problem, I'd say.
But I don't think it's hard to see the plasma guns, even if there was only 1 in the unit it's pretty easy to see with the blue glow. Additionally, I don't think it's a requirement to be able to see what weapons your enemy is wielding. I mean, if you can tell what it is that's great, but if you can't than that's just part of the difficulty with battling.
Currently tactical marines cannot do anything to defeat vehicles, which makes no sense. Tactical Marines should have flamers, plasma guns, meltaguns, missile launchers, heavy bolters, or lascannons. So that they can adapt to a situation. Devastators are just more specialized tactical marines that exclusively use heavy weapons, and in large numbers.
Like, we could look at the Predator. In the tabletop, the Predator comes with an Autocannon and that's it. You can add a heavy bolter to each side OR a lascannon on each side, but you don't have to. You can also replace the Autocannon with a twin-linked Lascannon. So, this really turns the two Predators into more like 4 realistic options. Autocannon and heavy bolters are anti-infantry. Autocannon and lascannons are anti-light vehicles. TL Lascannon and lascannons are anti-heavy vehicles and is the most expensive version. Then you can also simply take the autocanon predator or a predator with only a twin linked lascannon. These are much cheaper and allow you to essentially put more tanks on the field, but with less firepower. This saturates your army with armored vehicles and is very useful if you are planning to go vehicle heavy.
Every new unit or new option increases the challenge for balancing and also adds to production time. I do get it, it's just mostly wishful thinking.
@Kharneth said:
Currently tactical marines cannot do anything to defeat vehicles, which makes no sense. Tactical Marines should have flamers, plasma guns, meltaguns, missile launchers, heavy bolters, or lascannons. So that they can adapt to a situation. Devastators are just more specialized tactical marines that exclusively use heavy weapons, and in large numbers.
I don't think such a large range of choices is necessary or even beneficial to the game, TBH. Would feel like over complication for the sake of over complication. Though I certainly wouldn't say to no to an anti-heavy armor option, to have all those choices is a bit overkill.
Just add a Meltagun or a Missile Launcher to the current options of Flamer or Plasma, and I think that'd be more than enough.
Leave the Heavy Bolters and Lascannons to the Devastators, for both uniqueness sake, but also the clarity of what type of squad your opponent is up against if he encounters your Tactical Marines and they are down to 3 members. Could be confusing for some in a flustered fight otherwise.
@Kharneth said:
Currently tactical marines cannot do anything to defeat vehicles, which makes no sense. Tactical Marines should have flamers, plasma guns, meltaguns, missile launchers, heavy bolters, or lascannons. So that they can adapt to a situation. Devastators are just more specialized tactical marines that exclusively use heavy weapons, and in large numbers.
I don't think such a large range of choices is necessary or even beneficial to the game, TBH. Would feel like over complication for the sake of over complication. Though I certainly wouldn't say to no to an anti-heavy armor option, to have all those choices is a bit overkill.
Just add a Meltagun or a Missile Launcher to the current options of Flamer or Plasma, and I think that'd be more than enough.
Leave the Heavy Bolters and Lascannons to the Devastators, for both uniqueness sake, but also the clarity of what type of squad your opponent is up against if he encounters your Tactical Marines and they are down to 3 members. Could be confusing for some in a flustered fight otherwise.
Well, I don't think the game supports what I said, because you wouldn't want to give the unit either a complete set of one of those special/heavy weapons or an active ability that would represent that special/heavy weapon. It would be redundant with the devastators. It'd be really useful if, like you said, they gave us tacticals some armor-piercing potential. How would meltagun or missile launcher work, though? Would it be a unit of 5 marines with a meltagun blasting people in the face from close range?
The list of weapons that I listed, that tactical marines would otherwise have access to is not for the sake of complexity, but each weapon serves a very distinct and important task. Not all of those tasks are present in the game so there would be some overlap I'd imagine.
Well, I don't think the game supports what I said, because you wouldn't want to give the unit either a complete set of one of those special/heavy weapons or an active ability that would represent that special/heavy weapon. It would be redundant with the devastators. It'd be really useful if, like you said, they gave us tacticals some armor-piercing potential. How would meltagun or missile launcher work, though? Would it be a unit of 5 marines with a meltagun blasting people in the face from close range?
The list of weapons that I listed, that tactical marines would otherwise have access to is not for the sake of complexity, but each weapon serves a very distinct and important task. Not all of those tasks are present in the game so there would be some overlap I'd imagine.
Killteam says the game supports it without any problems. The current plasma/flamer thing is a (bad, IMHO) decision on Relic's side.
Well, I don't think the game supports what I said, because you wouldn't want to give the unit either a complete set of one of those special/heavy weapons or an active ability that would represent that special/heavy weapon. It would be redundant with the devastators. It'd be really useful if, like you said, they gave us tacticals some armor-piercing potential. How would meltagun or missile launcher work, though? Would it be a unit of 5 marines with a meltagun blasting people in the face from close range?
The list of weapons that I listed, that tactical marines would otherwise have access to is not for the sake of complexity, but each weapon serves a very distinct and important task. Not all of those tasks are present in the game so there would be some overlap I'd imagine.
Killteam says the game supports it without any problems. The current plasma/flamer thing is a (bad, IMHO) decision on Relic's side.
Well, what I mean is this list of weapons is too much because we lack Heavy Infantry: Flamers, Plasma guns, Meltaguns, Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters, and Lascannon.
If you added Heavy Infantry (possibly split vehicle into light and heavy vehicle) you'd be good. Light Infantry, Heavy Infantry, Light Vehicle, Heavy Vehicle.
You'd have flamers for light infantry AOE, heavy bolters for light infantry direct damage, plasma guns for heavy infantry direct damage, meltaguns for close range anti all vehicles (and heavy infantry but close range and lower dps than plasma guns would make it not as good), missile launchers for vehicles AOE (so kinda helps against infantry, but mostly just vehicles), and lascannons for anti-vehicle direct damage.
Without the heavy infantry armor class in the game, you'd be fine with Flamer, Plasma, Melta, and Missile launcher. The difference between the melta and missile would be close ranged armor-piercing on the move vs long ranged armor-piercing set up/tear down.
IMO, the entire Space Marine army should be heavy infantry (exception: scouts) while even Nobs would be light infantry. Meganobz would be heavy infantry and Gorgutz, too, but otherwise Orks have light infantry, light vehicles, and some heavy vehicles (deff dread and maybe the cannon thing).
Eldar would be mostly light infantry as well, with Wraithguard/blades as heavy infantry. Do Dark Reapers have a 3+ save? I'd make them heavy infantry, too if so.
Pretty much, this would be my design. 2+ or 3+ armor saves are heavy infantry; 4+, 5+, and 6+ saves would be light infantry. AV 10-12 would be light vehicle and AV 13-14 would be heavy vehicle. Or you could clump the vehicles together and just vary their HP.
Splitting the infantry would be a huge step forward instead of giving them vehicle armor, imo.
@Nassir_Amit Your definition of superheavy is kind of the consensus for simple heavy infantry. I go out on a limb by claiming that space marines should be heavy infantry, too.
But heavy infantry would absolutely be:
Terminators and anything in terminator armor.
Meganobz, Gorgutz, and anything in Orkish terminator equivalent.
Wraithguard and Wraithblades.
Then there is no need for super heavy. You'd have Light Amor, Heavy Armor, and idk... Vehicle Armor. Everything from trukks, vypers, and land speeders to deff dread and predators would have vehicle armor. All infantry other than the ones mentioned would be light armor or normal armor.
@Nassir_Amit said:
Now I get it.. with normal armor = heavy from DoW II and light armor = infantry armor from DoW II?
Becasue I was afraid of No differentiation between SM inf and other races
Thoug hsuper- heavy infantry sounds a bit more menacing don t you think so too?
I didn't play DoWII so idk, but that sounds right.
Light Armor = Tacticals, Ork Boyz, Dire Avengers
Normal Armor = Terminators, Meganobz, Wraithguard
Heavy Armor = Dreadnoughts, Deff Dreads, Falcons
Personally, I think Space Marines are Heavy Infantry, Terminators are Super Heavy Infantry, most Orks/Eldar are merely Infantry. Scout Marines are also regular infantry.
On the tabletop, Scout Marines have better armor than most Orks and Eldar. Space Marine armor is so good that it's actually better than cover in most situations. They're walking bunkers with automatic missile launching assault rifles. The lore behind a regular Tactical Space Marine is utterly intense, DoW makes them seem like they're just any other infantry, but oh man, space marines are super elite troopers.
@MY_NAME69 said:
Im guessin the Hellfire dread should make a comeback. Would give people options to choose between dreads. Hell fire dreds weakness would be getting tied up in melee. And AV obviously
The hellfire dreadnought is largely unnecessary, but they could add it and I wouldn't mind.
The regular dreadnought needs the option to have an assault cannon or lascannon in addition to its power fist. Additionally, the power fist needs to be able to be a missile launcher instead. That's all, it's not very complicated.
@Nassir_Amit said:
Assault cannon is is a must !!! Maybe multimelta?
It s really sad, that every unit with different weapons has to be an extra unit and not also an upgrade.
Plasmarines and KillTeam say otherwise. The engine supports it just fine.
How graceful Iám for this much variety , thank god, I though there was none.......
You can t be serious, those upgrades should be fundamental to game.
I agree with Nassir...
Tacticals have 2 options, Kill Team, too, but I'm not gunna talk about elites.
Scouts are either snipers or non-snipers. This could've and should've been made into 1 unit with the option to take sniper rifles and also an option for a missile launcher or heavy bolter. Instead you have 2 separate units. My guess is it is because of invisibility, which was a design choice because all scouts can infiltrate.
Assault Marines have no options except for Power Sword which isn't an option but is rather a complete upgrade.
Devastators come in two forms, Heavy Bolter or Lascannon instead of being a single unit that can choose either option. Maybe this is preferable as you don't have to wait for the weapon upgrade to "load," but it could've simply spawned 3 bolter marines with heavy bolter or lascannon options which "loaded" instantly like the Kill Team.
Dreadnoughts have no options, but they really should. I don't think Hellstorm is required. Instead I think they should come with Assault Cannon, Power Fist, and some options. On the left side you have Lascannon, Multimelta, Power Fist and on the right side you have Missile Launcher.
Whirlwind only comes with 1 option and is fine, though I'm a little annoyed that they don't actually have an attack and rely solely on their active ability.
Land Speeders are the perfect example of how everything should function. It spawns with it's default weapons (usually anti-infantry) and can be upgraded for an alternative weapon.
Predators do another Devastator thing where you have the solid slug version and the laser version. Instead it should just be Predator and have the option of Twin-Linked Lascannon as well as either Lascannon sponsons or Heavy Bolter sponsons.
When you look at them as a whole you see that there really aren't a lot of options and a good bulk of units that could've been the same unit were made into separate units. At the end of the day it makes little difference how you design it, but Nassir is right about it and Redscare listed the only two exceptions.
Yeah, the absence of this or at least Razorbacks was kinda mind-blowing. They've always been so key to the Space Marines lightning strike strategy, in both the tabletop and lore. Heck, having a bunch of Tacticals driving around in Rhinos and hitting where it hurt, and escaping from unfavourable engagements, was a good, strong strategy in both DoW1 and DoW2.
I guess they thought SM wouldn't need them with the Drop Pod system in DoW3, though I really would appreciate them TBH. Those things have a long CD and don't relocate your forces, just create new ones. Orks get a mobile forward reinforcement point and transport in the Trukk, as do Eldar (either Webways or Falcons, take your pick), it's rather unfair that SM don't even get one. And I really enjoyed this strategy in both DoW1 and DoW2 anyway, so I'm pretty sad you can't do it in DoW3.
Maybe they just didn't bother because they knew they had made Tacticals so weak that it wouldn't be worthwhile .
wow theres a lot of posts about didnt have time to read em all but as far as i read,no u cant balance RTS with TT rules,why?
1st and fromost cuz in TT fights are turn based,maybe they can be applied to a turn based strategy game but not rts
then again idk if u guys remember dow2 days or not but having multiple types did not help at ALL,it made the balance such a night mare and if u ask most after so many patches directed at nobs they still werent balanced,hence they moved to dow3 2 type,and u all can scream the game is not balance now so why even care or change it
but,even 1 balance patch is not out yet,w8 and see the changes they made to game design makes game easier to balance and after a year or so come here and if balancing were still hard like dow2 then u can be right
@MY_NAME69 said:
Im guessin the Hellfire dread should make a comeback. Would give people options to choose between dreads. Hell fire dreds weakness would be getting tied up in melee. And AV obviously
The hellfire dreadnought is largely unnecessary, but they could add it and I wouldn't mind.
The regular dreadnought needs the option to have an assault cannon or lascannon in addition to its power fist. Additionally, the power fist needs to be able to be a missile launcher instead. That's all, it's not very complicated.
It might not seem complicated. But it is in a game design and balance standpoint. As mentioned above.
Give melee dread options to upgrade to assault cannon or multi melta and missle launchers and oh! you accidently made predators less viable.
DoW 2 had the same issue when it came to unit upgrades why buy a certain unit when you have all the counters in one package. Why build an army to counter your enwmy when you can simply just click 2 buttons and have the counter immidiatly.
Reason why There is no upgrade system in SC. Building counters should be a intelligence thing. Scout enemy out. See what hes got if he has something special start building something to counter that. Etc etc. There is a reason for everything relic is doing.
Thats why i proposed the hellfire dread naught because it would get a fair price tag have its weakness and will require a actual decision to build but not make predators unviable,
I don't see how you argument makes any sense. Having two separate dreads vs a single dread doesn't affect predator balancing. Either the hellfire replaces it or it doesn't (and it never will).
It's not complicated on a design or a balance standpoint. It's just simply not complicated on a design standpoint, so I don't know how to continue that piece. In terms of balance, a dreadnought will never replace a predator.
First off, a dreadnought without any melee weapons can still be locked in melee and still has melee attacks. So, there's a difference. Also, a dreadnought with a lascannon and missile launcher is neither as durable as a predator nor as a devastating in terms of firepower. The dreadnoughts are cheaper alternatives, predators are tougher and more powerful. They have more guns, better armor, and are generally used from a further distance.
A Dreadnought should spawn with an assault rifle already. The standard, default dreadnought has an assault rifle, heavy flamer, and power fist. Then you can simply replace the assault cannon with a lascannon or a multimelta. Neither challenge the predator's superiority, but instead provide ranged armor-piercing in T2 (also, now you have heavy armor with armor-piercing damage in addition to normal armor armor-piercing). Multimelta is much more devastating but has a tiny range is VERY useful on a dreadnought who will be up close and personal anyway.
The missile launcher option really isn't that good, but it's for players who want their dreadnought to be a walking turret. I'd make it similar to the autocannon but with a larger AOE and a slower rate of fire (similar dps, though). What you'd have with a hellfire dread is something that could dish out more armor-piercing damage than a predator (but less anti-infantry damage due to less frequent AOE and no heavy bolters) but with less health and also not as much armor-piercing damage as the annihilator predator which is far and away the superior option for armor-piercing damage.
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redScare
Indeed, played just once or twice ages ago. But read your post again and you'll see you've just explained why the gazillion combinations allowed by the TT point system does not translate to an RTS
For example, the enemy needs to be able to see at a glance what units are you fielding, and know what they pack (in fact I don't like flamer tacs are so hard to spot).
Also, reading some other posts from other TT players, doesn't seem the TT is an epitome of balance anyway.
That's not to say that it would be cool that basic line units had some T2 option to make them scale better (ie burnas for boyz).
Kharneth
@redScare You're certainly right that the TT is not the epitome of balance, but it should be, in my opinion, the place you'd start when designing a 40k RTS.
So, one issue with DoW3 is that you can't see the flamers. The flamer does not exist unless the enemy is using the flamer ability. The marine that uses the flamer is using a bolter when not using a flamer, so it's literally impossible to see him. This is one problem, I'd say.
But I don't think it's hard to see the plasma guns, even if there was only 1 in the unit it's pretty easy to see with the blue glow. Additionally, I don't think it's a requirement to be able to see what weapons your enemy is wielding. I mean, if you can tell what it is that's great, but if you can't than that's just part of the difficulty with battling.
Currently tactical marines cannot do anything to defeat vehicles, which makes no sense. Tactical Marines should have flamers, plasma guns, meltaguns, missile launchers, heavy bolters, or lascannons. So that they can adapt to a situation. Devastators are just more specialized tactical marines that exclusively use heavy weapons, and in large numbers.
Like, we could look at the Predator. In the tabletop, the Predator comes with an Autocannon and that's it. You can add a heavy bolter to each side OR a lascannon on each side, but you don't have to. You can also replace the Autocannon with a twin-linked Lascannon. So, this really turns the two Predators into more like 4 realistic options. Autocannon and heavy bolters are anti-infantry. Autocannon and lascannons are anti-light vehicles. TL Lascannon and lascannons are anti-heavy vehicles and is the most expensive version. Then you can also simply take the autocanon predator or a predator with only a twin linked lascannon. These are much cheaper and allow you to essentially put more tanks on the field, but with less firepower. This saturates your army with armored vehicles and is very useful if you are planning to go vehicle heavy.
Every new unit or new option increases the challenge for balancing and also adds to production time. I do get it, it's just mostly wishful thinking.
KotCR
I don't think such a large range of choices is necessary or even beneficial to the game, TBH. Would feel like over complication for the sake of over complication. Though I certainly wouldn't say to no to an anti-heavy armor option, to have all those choices is a bit overkill.
Just add a Meltagun or a Missile Launcher to the current options of Flamer or Plasma, and I think that'd be more than enough.
Leave the Heavy Bolters and Lascannons to the Devastators, for both uniqueness sake, but also the clarity of what type of squad your opponent is up against if he encounters your Tactical Marines and they are down to 3 members. Could be confusing for some in a flustered fight otherwise.
Kharneth
Well, I don't think the game supports what I said, because you wouldn't want to give the unit either a complete set of one of those special/heavy weapons or an active ability that would represent that special/heavy weapon. It would be redundant with the devastators. It'd be really useful if, like you said, they gave us tacticals some armor-piercing potential. How would meltagun or missile launcher work, though? Would it be a unit of 5 marines with a meltagun blasting people in the face from close range?
The list of weapons that I listed, that tactical marines would otherwise have access to is not for the sake of complexity, but each weapon serves a very distinct and important task. Not all of those tasks are present in the game so there would be some overlap I'd imagine.
redScare
Killteam says the game supports it without any problems. The current plasma/flamer thing is a (bad, IMHO) decision on Relic's side.
Kharneth
Well, what I mean is this list of weapons is too much because we lack Heavy Infantry: Flamers, Plasma guns, Meltaguns, Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters, and Lascannon.
If you added Heavy Infantry (possibly split vehicle into light and heavy vehicle) you'd be good. Light Infantry, Heavy Infantry, Light Vehicle, Heavy Vehicle.
You'd have flamers for light infantry AOE, heavy bolters for light infantry direct damage, plasma guns for heavy infantry direct damage, meltaguns for close range anti all vehicles (and heavy infantry but close range and lower dps than plasma guns would make it not as good), missile launchers for vehicles AOE (so kinda helps against infantry, but mostly just vehicles), and lascannons for anti-vehicle direct damage.
Without the heavy infantry armor class in the game, you'd be fine with Flamer, Plasma, Melta, and Missile launcher. The difference between the melta and missile would be close ranged armor-piercing on the move vs long ranged armor-piercing set up/tear down.
Kharneth
Why do you need superheavy infantry? lol.
IMO, the entire Space Marine army should be heavy infantry (exception: scouts) while even Nobs would be light infantry. Meganobz would be heavy infantry and Gorgutz, too, but otherwise Orks have light infantry, light vehicles, and some heavy vehicles (deff dread and maybe the cannon thing).
Eldar would be mostly light infantry as well, with Wraithguard/blades as heavy infantry. Do Dark Reapers have a 3+ save? I'd make them heavy infantry, too if so.
Pretty much, this would be my design. 2+ or 3+ armor saves are heavy infantry; 4+, 5+, and 6+ saves would be light infantry. AV 10-12 would be light vehicle and AV 13-14 would be heavy vehicle. Or you could clump the vehicles together and just vary their HP.
Splitting the infantry would be a huge step forward instead of giving them vehicle armor, imo.
Kharneth
@Nassir_Amit Your definition of superheavy is kind of the consensus for simple heavy infantry. I go out on a limb by claiming that space marines should be heavy infantry, too.
But heavy infantry would absolutely be:
Terminators and anything in terminator armor.
Meganobz, Gorgutz, and anything in Orkish terminator equivalent.
Wraithguard and Wraithblades.
Then there is no need for super heavy. You'd have Light Amor, Heavy Armor, and idk... Vehicle Armor. Everything from trukks, vypers, and land speeders to deff dread and predators would have vehicle armor. All infantry other than the ones mentioned would be light armor or normal armor.
Kharneth
I didn't play DoWII so idk, but that sounds right.
Light Armor = Tacticals, Ork Boyz, Dire Avengers
Normal Armor = Terminators, Meganobz, Wraithguard
Heavy Armor = Dreadnoughts, Deff Dreads, Falcons
Personally, I think Space Marines are Heavy Infantry, Terminators are Super Heavy Infantry, most Orks/Eldar are merely Infantry. Scout Marines are also regular infantry.
On the tabletop, Scout Marines have better armor than most Orks and Eldar. Space Marine armor is so good that it's actually better than cover in most situations. They're walking bunkers with automatic missile launching assault rifles. The lore behind a regular Tactical Space Marine is utterly intense, DoW makes them seem like they're just any other infantry, but oh man, space marines are super elite troopers.
Kharneth
In DoW2's defense, I only hated it because it was a skirmish style and the heavy weapons had arcs instead of 360.
Raptor = Heavy Infantry. Hormagaunt = Infantry. Dreadnought = Vehicle.
Looks right to me.
Larkis
the dread only has melee weapons cause the marines need some heavy melee units.
giving vom ranger weapons Chance the complete role of that unit. also you have a predator for the ranged vehicle role.
there is no need for an predator ripoff in space marine site.
Kharneth
The hellfire dreadnought is largely unnecessary, but they could add it and I wouldn't mind.
The regular dreadnought needs the option to have an assault cannon or lascannon in addition to its power fist. Additionally, the power fist needs to be able to be a missile launcher instead. That's all, it's not very complicated.
redScare
Plasmarines and KillTeam say otherwise. The engine supports it just fine.
Kharneth
I agree with Nassir...
Tacticals have 2 options, Kill Team, too, but I'm not gunna talk about elites.
Scouts are either snipers or non-snipers. This could've and should've been made into 1 unit with the option to take sniper rifles and also an option for a missile launcher or heavy bolter. Instead you have 2 separate units. My guess is it is because of invisibility, which was a design choice because all scouts can infiltrate.
Assault Marines have no options except for Power Sword which isn't an option but is rather a complete upgrade.
Devastators come in two forms, Heavy Bolter or Lascannon instead of being a single unit that can choose either option. Maybe this is preferable as you don't have to wait for the weapon upgrade to "load," but it could've simply spawned 3 bolter marines with heavy bolter or lascannon options which "loaded" instantly like the Kill Team.
Dreadnoughts have no options, but they really should. I don't think Hellstorm is required. Instead I think they should come with Assault Cannon, Power Fist, and some options. On the left side you have Lascannon, Multimelta, Power Fist and on the right side you have Missile Launcher.
Whirlwind only comes with 1 option and is fine, though I'm a little annoyed that they don't actually have an attack and rely solely on their active ability.
Land Speeders are the perfect example of how everything should function. It spawns with it's default weapons (usually anti-infantry) and can be upgraded for an alternative weapon.
Predators do another Devastator thing where you have the solid slug version and the laser version. Instead it should just be Predator and have the option of Twin-Linked Lascannon as well as either Lascannon sponsons or Heavy Bolter sponsons.
When you look at them as a whole you see that there really aren't a lot of options and a good bulk of units that could've been the same unit were made into separate units. At the end of the day it makes little difference how you design it, but Nassir is right about it and Redscare listed the only two exceptions.
KotCR
Yeah, the absence of this or at least Razorbacks was kinda mind-blowing. They've always been so key to the Space Marines lightning strike strategy, in both the tabletop and lore. Heck, having a bunch of Tacticals driving around in Rhinos and hitting where it hurt, and escaping from unfavourable engagements, was a good, strong strategy in both DoW1 and DoW2.
I guess they thought SM wouldn't need them with the Drop Pod system in DoW3, though I really would appreciate them TBH. Those things have a long CD and don't relocate your forces, just create new ones. Orks get a mobile forward reinforcement point and transport in the Trukk, as do Eldar (either Webways or Falcons, take your pick), it's rather unfair that SM don't even get one. And I really enjoyed this strategy in both DoW1 and DoW2 anyway, so I'm pretty sad you can't do it in DoW3.
Maybe they just didn't bother because they knew they had made Tacticals so weak that it wouldn't be worthwhile
.
Kharneth
lmao.
"Yeah, the game is ready but the Assault Marines are way too powerful and the Tactical Marines are pretty bad"
"Oh yeah? But they've got Rhinos, right?
"No, we didn't have enough time to include the Rhinos."
"Eh, I'm sure no one will notice. Release it."
Emperorism
wow theres a lot of posts about didnt have time to read em all but as far as i read,no u cant balance RTS with TT rules,why?
1st and fromost cuz in TT fights are turn based,maybe they can be applied to a turn based strategy game but not rts
then again idk if u guys remember dow2 days or not but having multiple types did not help at ALL,it made the balance such a night mare and if u ask most after so many patches directed at nobs they still werent balanced,hence they moved to dow3 2 type,and u all can scream the game is not balance now so why even care or change it
but,even 1 balance patch is not out yet,w8 and see the changes they made to game design makes game easier to balance and after a year or so come here and if balancing were still hard like dow2 then u can be right
Kharneth
I don't see how you argument makes any sense. Having two separate dreads vs a single dread doesn't affect predator balancing. Either the hellfire replaces it or it doesn't (and it never will).
It's not complicated on a design or a balance standpoint. It's just simply not complicated on a design standpoint, so I don't know how to continue that piece. In terms of balance, a dreadnought will never replace a predator.
First off, a dreadnought without any melee weapons can still be locked in melee and still has melee attacks. So, there's a difference. Also, a dreadnought with a lascannon and missile launcher is neither as durable as a predator nor as a devastating in terms of firepower. The dreadnoughts are cheaper alternatives, predators are tougher and more powerful. They have more guns, better armor, and are generally used from a further distance.
A Dreadnought should spawn with an assault rifle already. The standard, default dreadnought has an assault rifle, heavy flamer, and power fist. Then you can simply replace the assault cannon with a lascannon or a multimelta. Neither challenge the predator's superiority, but instead provide ranged armor-piercing in T2 (also, now you have heavy armor with armor-piercing damage in addition to normal armor armor-piercing). Multimelta is much more devastating but has a tiny range is VERY useful on a dreadnought who will be up close and personal anyway.
The missile launcher option really isn't that good, but it's for players who want their dreadnought to be a walking turret. I'd make it similar to the autocannon but with a larger AOE and a slower rate of fire (similar dps, though). What you'd have with a hellfire dread is something that could dish out more armor-piercing damage than a predator (but less anti-infantry damage due to less frequent AOE and no heavy bolters) but with less health and also not as much armor-piercing damage as the annihilator predator which is far and away the superior option for armor-piercing damage.