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Quitting the game till ASM get nerfed
3 years ago
Oinky
After 109 games as an otp Ork player this is getting out of hand, i just lost to a player who did not even build a single node or defended any strategic point, he just spammed asm, lost evey trade (still saved all units thanks to the 0.2 sec jump from doctrine and the super low cd), as i walk out for push he jumped into nodes with powerswords and then won the game, idk why it takes so long to fix a problem this big, just watch every high lvl play sm and they ALL do the same.
3
Comments
AKaTTACK
Probably a good idea, if its really bothering you that much dont get burned out. Take a break and come back when the balanced has improved.
Diogen84
Sm cry eldar op, orcs cry sm op, eldars cry orcs op)
Larkis
Everything is op except me.
Nautiloidor
Poetic.
vindicarex
You and the rest of the world...
TOGgledShot
I'd personally like to see a replay of this. It's hard to gauge how hard you got beat based off your claim without seeing evidence.
MajBumWhistler
Didn't build a single node yet got power swords? Even when I build nodes it still takes awhile to get power swords.
AKaTTACK
Speaking of OP, do you guys remember the Avatar or Khaine? or 6 terminator squads? what about unbreakable IG, or level 4 tac squads. Good times...
TOGgledShot
I drool to think that the Avatar of Khaine will make an appearance in DoW3. mmmm
PrimaGoosa
I feel like you just "yadda yadda yadda"d a strangely large amount of the game, and now you're piggybacking on "it happens to high level players, so it must be broken" mentality without questioning your own play for even a second.
What are people doing to try to defend against the far-side harass?
DaDokisinX
Well, I consider myself and I few others I know to be "high level players." The situation painted by OP, while clearly inflammatory, is pretty accurate about how I feel about ASM spam (as well as the other broken parts of the game).
Plus questioning his skill does not dilute the main grievance of his argument: that players with otherwise inferior skill are being carried by IMBA tactics/strategies. It's, you know, the logical outcome of IMBA units.
grndmrshlgando
You havent quit yet? It only took me a handful of games tonrealize the balance is abysmally broken lmao. I holding off on this until they fix this rushed game
PrimaGoosa
I would argue that questioning his skill specifically dilutes his main grievance, because who is he to say that his opponent had inferior skill? A couple engagements? Maybe losing more ASMs in trade but still surviving for cheaper reinforcement was a delay tactic until he could get a more critical mass of ASMs, while sticking the Ork in a confident position to entice a push.
As a high level player, what are you doing to try shutting down an ASM harass/backdoor style play? I'm just curious what people are trying, knowing it is a strong strategy.
Oinky
I'm an ex master 1v1 in Starcraft 2 Wol and Hots so i have some "basics" on how rts works and before opening a comment on the forums i've played 100+ games and yes i know how to watch replay and learn from mistakes. So asm wins 1v1 boyz so you have to get truks and splitpushing in order to stay in the game, once you got truks and stormboyz you can start trading and with some luck land some suicidebombz on the asm, if you have some decent micro you win the t1.5 game now you are back, SM turtles up reinforcing units on listening posts so you can't trade under towers and if you blob A+Lclick he just jumps in with doctrine killing half of your army then jumps out, flamethrowrs and you lost the game, so play super careful splitting stormboyz truks and boyz, use waagh for baiting a push and scout with workers, no matter what at some point in the game he jumps in with 3 asm squad with swords and kill you shield gen -> he makes more asm; now 2 option, you trade for another gen, he push towers (yes t1.5 units can kills towers) and that open your core, so you start a 15 min game where at the end the SM loses to nobz+trucks BUT backdoors you and still win the game, OR you try to go back and lose your entire army to more asm.
I know how to question my gameplay before posting something my dear asm spammer.
and the reason i quote high lvl gameplay is because its so clear that asm are broken since every single SM plays that strat in 1v1.
DaDokisinX
@PrimaGoosa ^^ basically this.
Orks have no way to fight the ASM without this imo, just as other SM are forced to also spam ASM and Eldar go with their SS's and Webways. It's a bad, anti-fun meta brought on by OP doctrines which in turn funnels players into a single strategy just to stay in the game to have a fighting chance
PrimaGoosa
@Oinky @DaDokisinX
So what else have you tried, and how many times did you try it? Build orders, positioning, tactics, anything. Also, any replays where you felt you played really well but ASM spam was just too imba? I'd be curious to watch, too.
I just don't care about the emotional response to losing to a strategy. I get it, you're frustrated, others are frustrated, how frustrating, etc. I hate when forums turn into rage-support groups, especially when there's potential for real discussion. People don't often seem to have the energy to actually discuss much though, just complain and very frequently hyperbolize.
jambai
So you won every trade yet still lost the game? Wow.....
Strangequark
Why are you so confrontational towards everyone Primagoosa? How many players have you chased away with your, "My opinion is the only one that matters" mentality.
PrimaGoosa
I'm not confrontational towards everyone. I'm confrontational towards the ragey attitudes that come to the forum, make demands, and complain with often no support whatsoever. I'm tired of forums for games being dominated by crass hate and a complete and total lack of personal accountability. These attitudes often exhaust and exasperated individuals who would otherwise want to just talk shop, and it sends the community into a toxic tailspin.
Most of the time, all I'm doing is questioning people. Demanding proof, justification. And I'm the one being confrontational and pushing people away? Can these people not stand up for themselves and defend their opinions? What are they doing here if they don't want to discuss?
In @Oinky's defense he elaborated much better as to why he feels boxed in by the ASM spam strat. Good on him, that's something that can be discussed.
So turn down your sensitivity dials. I don't think my opinion is the only one that matters. But if someone is going to argue for something that will have an impact on my experience, I want to get to the root of it.
If it doesn't survive scrutiny, I want that laid bare.
If it is iron clad, I want that laid bare too, not hidden under loss frustration. How people feel about a loss has almost no bearing whatsoever on whether or not something is balanced. Now if we are talking fun, we should discuss ideas like removing AP damage from highly mobile units to limit the strength of fast backdoors instead of saying "nerf asm".
Stoner
@Oinky
Honestly, feels like we're playing different games. Landing suicide bombers isn't that hard. I usually manage to lock up and kill bunch of ASMs within Librarian barrier no problem, no idea how you don't manage to stun and kill them all in a blast. Every lost ASM model is brutal hit for SM economy. Trukks utterly wreck ASM, if they give chase, they lose lots of models so non-option. When Weirdboy is out, it's game over for SM, he nukes squads away left and right and plus uncatchable unless Ork seriously mess up. On t2 Ork get Killa Kans. tested myself - 4 Kans kill turret with burst. In latest vs. Ork match, some Boyz under Waaagh! + Stormboyz went melee on my gen, while I went x2 ASM with Powerswords on theirs. They killed my Gen faster than I killed theirs.
By any chance, do you have a replay? Would be interesting to see what SM was really doing.
Oinky
Trukks pathing and cast time of W is "clunky" if we compare to the asm jumps, i'm not talking on low level play where the SM just keep all units in 1 blob and you can W-Q chain on 2 trukks, with decent micro your asm always have something to target since they have the best mob in the game at t1.
Also the Waagh power-up is amazing yes but can be seen on the mini map even without vision, Weirdboy W needs to be nerfed but if it gets caught with W on cd is pretty much dead to anything. We have Kans you have landspeedrs so yea let's end this here.
You either give amazing mobility or amazing dps not both on the same unit that can be upgraded on true dmg at t1, that's what i'm saying.
Stoner
After watching some high level Ork replays, I couldn't say Trukk W is clunky. If you let Trukk get surrounded or jammed, that's your fault, in the open or with retreat route ASM can't catch them. That and my personal experience. You don't blob with ASM, they are fast and pretty much always spread out, but it's easy to catch and wreck at least one squad real quick. Model loss in fights even with Boyz is insane, reinforce is slow and extremely expensive.
Also, Kans cannot even remotely be compared to Landspeeders for cost/efficiency. What I'm saying is people tend to overrate ASM, which isn't the case usually.
Strangequark
The game isn't holding 1000 players, take your hurt feelings about the forum and swallow them, we don't need any self righteous person who thinks he knows the best in everything jumping all over anyone who comes in here to voice the concerns. THESE AREN'T YOUR FORUMS, they are for all of us, and personally we don't need any more players jumping out of the communication loop, or abandoning the game all together. GROW THE COMMUNITY QUIT TRYING TO BULLY ANYONE WHO COMES IN HERE TO POST.
Strangequark
You are a player, you are not a mod, you are not a dev. You don't get to demand anything from anyone here, no one has given you the power or authority to make any judgement on who is being ragey and who isn't. Those are your OPINIONS and are not guidelines for the forum. He shouldn't have to defend himself from another player on the forums that are supposed to be the community. You are like, walking hypocrisy, I mean look at this. Quotes "I'm confrontational towards the ragey attitudes that come to the forum, make demands, and complain with often no support whatsoever." In the same post "Most of the time, all I'm doing is questioning people. Demanding proof, justification." WALKING HYPOCRISY.
PrimaGoosa
Clever way to take two instances of "demand" and tying them together to try to what, undermine my credibility? Get a rise out of me?
No one has to answer me when I question them and demand proof/reasoning. But if you come onto a public forum, demand that the game change because you lost, and don't actually discuss why it should be changed, then I'm going to call you out. That way, we either get into a discussion, or it demonstrates that you have nothing to base your claims on.
If you support the idea of people coming onto the forums to stand on a soapbox and push their own agenda because every special snowflake should be heard, then we'll just continually be at odds. I think it's valuable to dig to the heart of issues to find out what people actually want instead of what they've convinced themselves they want based on what's popular to want, or what they are frustrated by at the time.
Are ASMs a problem, or should objectives and/or buildings have a unique armor type?
Is it just ASMs that are the problem, or is the concept of highly mobile AP damage harass too strong given map design?
Does every example of ASM usage illustrate a problem with ASMs, or are people misplaying the game based on their opponent's strategy?
At the end of the day, I'm a nobody. You're a nobody. OP's a nobody. All community members who come to chat are anonymous people who none of us know anything about. That's why I think ideas matter most. Am I always perfectly civil when I respond? Of course not. I could do better. But I always find it interesting when one side initiates with a lack of civility, it is challenged without perfect civility, and the challenge is the one that is judged harshest. The "other guy" always has to be the professional when it comes to forum discourse.
I didn't see this, but I think the best way to grow the community is to try to foster something that isn't just a festival of whiny complaints. If someone is "bullied" out of a community because they came to it, complained, demanded a vague change be made, and were challenged to support their idea, then good riddance.
nerva2940
yeah I called this in my thread a week or two ago. this breaks the game in tier 1 (along with Scorps). I've stopped playing until the patch.
RedDevilCG
AFAIK, nodes have normal armour. The listening posts definitely have normal armour. Power Swords do no additional damage to normal armour over the regular chainswords.
Strangequark
And with that I'm out, this entire post only reinforces what I stated. You won't back off, its your way or the highway, chasing players away from a communication forum because they happen to share a different opinion than you do, in a game that can't keep 1000 active players during non peak hours. Keep up the good work Primagoosa.
PrimaGoosa
Until next time, then. I'm just explaining how I approach situations so you understand. You don't have to like it, but I do find it interesting how you think it's "my way or the highway", while in the same post you exit the discussion because I won't conform to your way.
Curious if anyone wants to discuss whether ASM spam as a meta is a cause, or a symptom of a deeper issue that might need to be investigated. My perpetual concern is that we're just scratching the surface and demanding change without investigating what could be a deeper issue with map design/gameplay.
Leeroy1986
Well I've been watching BikerRush's Twitch channel this evening. His games vs Orks have been massed ASM harass with Deathwatch Rockets into Powerswords, Dreadnoughts, etc.
This Ork player beat him twice, but after he lost one game, kept quitting out after that, which was a shame.
The Ork player went with Stormboyz into numerous Trukks with the suicide Stormboy doctrine. Followed up by Nobz, Zapnoggin, Ard boy harass and Killa Kanz.
The Ork guy won the games where he went on the aggressive to harass him early. Obviously landing Stormboyz rokkits help. But when the Kanz spam came the Space Marines had no answer.
BikerRush beat him by getting Powerswords and playing base trades.
I'm now watching a game of him against another Ork player where his ASM couldn't deal with the Stormboyz rokkits, so it's another base trade.
So get yourself on Twitch, there are some pretty good Ork players there.