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Dark Reapers seem weak
Darkstirling
I really like this unit thematically, but they feel a little weak to me in contrast to the other setup teams.
Their doctrines blow:
Seriously, all these guys get is a vision increase in cover, and a reallllllly crappy teleport ability that doesnt last nearly long enough. I feel that the vision increase should be everywhere (not just cover), and the teleport should last longer, or even be indefinite. Maybe even just scrap these doctrines and think of new ones, because they seem pretty bad compared to what the other setup teams getThey have no slow.
I know this is intentional, but their dps / damage type doesnt seem good enough to offset the lack of a slow on them compared to the other heavy weapons
I really want to build more reapers, but I feel if I go for reapers early game, I am severely gimping myself vs if I go avengers. This might just be a problem with avengers, but I also feel reapers might be a bit weak (at least their doctrines are)
Comments
Agemmon
I would imagine that Relic decided to give Dark Reapers lower DPS in compared to the Lootas and Devastators, as Dark Reapers are the only similar unit type of the three to deal true damage.
While this means that they will be dealing less damage to infantry than the Lootas or Devastators because the Reapers' DPS is lower, they will end up dealing quite a bit more damage to vehicles than Lootas or Devastators when your enemies start rolling them out.
Essentially, Dark Reapers start out with having roughly 10 or so less DPS than Lootas or Devastators against infantry, but end up having roughly 20 or so more DPS against vehicles because of their true damage type, allowing them to continue dealing their native DPS while the Lootas and Devastators deal only a fraction of their DPS to armored unit types.
jambai
They aren't as OP as DA but I highly doubt there's some something seriously wrong about them. Well, I personally dislike their doctrines...none of them seem overly useful.
But to buff them so that they're worthwhile in respect to current DA would be insane. We need people (LOTS) to evaluate them first and that's impossible with the current state of DAs.
Darkstirling
True damage is great and all, but it has 0 effect on the early game, which is usually where I make the decision to build dark reapers. If I want to counter vehicles mid to late game, there are other things I can build. I just don't think true damage makes up for their lower dps and lack of a slow.
That is part of the problem, most units have like 3 or 4 doctrines, reapers have two, and they are both pure shite
TOGgledShot
Dark Reapers get mowed over a lot of times in combat. By the time they undeploy, they are basically dead.
DaDokisinX
Keep in mind they also benefit from other mechanics such as FoF and shields. making them much more survivable than their ork or SM counterparts. I personally think their damage is fine, as they also provide pseudo-counters to vehicles if the eldar player is behind in tech.
1-1 comparisons across factions probably isn't the way to analyze them.
Silveran
Sadly its not 10 or so, its 20 to 24 more DPS....along with the AoE slow and their doctrines are simply...abysmal. Now they do slightly better against vehicles at around 10-12 DPS more base DPS, but you aren't building these guys as an AV counter. The only reason people build them is because they are the only heavy weapons team Eldar has and are a Req dump.
To me the one aspect I don't understand is the loss of the slow. Why do they have a massive normal damage decrease AND lose the slow for a minimal increase vs heavy armor?
Silveran
I can get the shields benefit (thought this is a faction mechanic like drop pods giving a Dev team free shields and great positioning after a fight starts), but they get basically 0 FoF benefit as they have to setup and tear down like all other weapons teams.
TOGgledShot
I hope people understand that the only benefit that Eldar have with shields is the fact that it regenerates. Shields are not an added on buffer before you get to their actual health. If Eldar pull their shields off, they would be missing 50% of their health. It's like taking a Tac squad and cutting their health in half.
I hope people realize this if they don't.
Dullahan
I think the beacon needs to last wayyyy longer, other than that I don't have a problem with these guys. They're not an early game buy but a good unit to mix into the mid game.
jambai
I agree shield is core race mechanic, shouldn't be the focus in a discussion of a specific unit.
Shields ARE a buffer before the actual health...that's like the very nature of it. And it's HUGE benefit as it means you can kite/hit n' run other infantry (made easier with fleet of foot) without any model losses. This is the problem with DA, they're nearly bleed-free unless the eldar player got caught off guard.
[Not sure why eldar has them even, only Tau should've widely available personal shields].
TOGgledShot
I guess you aren't understanding and maybe I need to clarify. Eldar DA and DR are paper without shields. These units already die pretty fast in a fight as they have less health (including shields) than your normal Tac squad. They also scale lower.
Having "shields" is what makes Eldar different from the other 2 races (devs choice as this game isn't Table Top). Most of the Eldar are pretty easy to destroy as they don't have near as much health as some of the other races units. Fire Prism's die to bad breath...
jambai
Well of course, but they do have shields, they are only without them if the enemy has damaged them, which is something you can prevent or trade in your favor. Health loss = model loss = economic loss. Shields...not so much. Removing shields completely and replacing them with health would be a huge nerf to eldar; so evidently shields are much better than health and I've no idea how anyone can say otherwise.
Grighoul
Don't forget that Dark Reapers deal not only true damage, but splash-AOE damage with each hit - that also buffs their DPS.
Auric
They trade the damage and slow of other suppression teams for better damage when it comes to fighting heavy infantry.
Their damage is low enough that no one would seriously use them to fight vehicles unless there are a huge amount of reapers, but the splash on their attacks means their damage multiplies up when fighting things like nobs, wraithguard or terminators (particularly nobs).
Problem is wraithguard are better than both them and shadowspectres so you just build them instead for any anti heavy armour needs.
TOGgledShot
Well, Yes, shields are better than health because it regens without being at base, but the Regen is slow at first. You have to tech up to have it do better and even then it still scales lower than other races equivalent units.
Guziol
The gigantic upside is that you dont drop models untill the shields are down.
jambai
I was never talking about the regen aspect of it in any of my posts..
But yeah let's end this, it's off topic
TOGgledShot
Yes, this as well.
Silveran
Same as Lootas and Devastators, plus the splash is to small as to not matter vs vehicles. Overall a fairly moot point outside of their AoE component being terrible vs vehicles/larger models.
TOGgledShot
I mean, I was speaking generally about Eldar and specifically about DR and DA and their combat effectiveness and efficiency. Contributing to the whole conversation, not just contesting yours.
KanKrusha
The slow keeps getting mentioned, don't forget Dev's slow is an active ability from a doctrine and lootas only slow after an upgrade (lootin' scrap).
Not to day I don't lose my reapers a lot because if find reapers difficult to unset up and get out of trouble. I have found a role in keeping them back as basedefence against landspeeders
Silveran
Devastators innately slow, the doctrine allows for immobilization...or if you mean las devs who weren't being discussed they do not slow, but their doctrine allows for slowing.
KotCR
It's just a problem with Dire Avengers.
Only thing Dark Reapers need is a doctrine re-work, as you suggested. Other than that they are fine; Yes, they don't do as much damage as Lootas or HBD, but that's the tradeoff for them having anti-armor capability. They can form a good solid backbone to any force, offering some versatility and a soft-counter to anything, but you aren't supposed to use them as the core of your force.
I wouldn't say no to them getting a bit more melee damage though. They are very poor in this regard, when traditionally in Dawn of War they've been relatively decent in melee for a ranged unit. Might make sense to give them slightly stronger melee (not to the level of melee troops, but more like a level equivalent to the current Dire Avengers), to make them a truly versatile unit (shoot tanks, shoot vehicles, try to melee squads you can't out-shoot), though honestly, this is a thematic wish more than anything else. They don't need it, but if you really want to give them something, there you go.
Stoner
Personally I don't think Reapers are weak. I treat all these units as defenders first and foremost, so don't have big success in using them for assault, but out of 3, Lootas win hands down currently. Also, giving t1 originally unlocked unit with gimped damage against infantry and better one for armor doesn't make even slightest sense to me tbh...
Silveran
It seems strange that lootas are by far the best when Devastators do 3 more DPS and slow as well. They AoE mechanics are different (circular vs line), but they are pretty similar overall, with Devastators have much better doctrines.
Stoner
Don't Lootas benefit from x2 slow from scrap? Considering Doctrines, the only one useful for Devs is non-setup from Termies, and if I don't put them in roster, there's not much else. Pin seems decent, but it works very inconsistently, not sure, maybe bugged.
Akranadas
I feel like they are just a contradicting to the why the Eldar faction is designed.
You've got all these units that are fast, mobile skirmishers who focus on hitting hard and being able to retreat if things get to hairy. Yet, you've got a unit that's slow, takes a long time to set up before firing and can't escape due to equally long undeploy time. To me that just causes the Dark Reapers to stand out as the odd unit out in the entire faction design .
Devastators and Lootas at least work with the Space Marine and Ork factions in terms of design; Dark Reapers just go against it.
Silveran
I am not sure of the exact slow amounts so I don't know if its double the devastators slow though it does seem more, Lootas only slow with scrap.
As for Doctrines: Outside of the presence which is great, but a presence, the dev one for the 200 HP shield after being stationary is fairly nice and the extended range while in cover/stealth is pretty ++heresy redacted++ good as snipers can no longer plink heavy cover, its maybe even the best of all heavy weapon team doctrines. Really shocked I have seen 0 people ever use it, if there was a dark reaper range extender I believe I would use it a ton in team games.
Mirambel
True damage also mows Elites and death drop pods. A pair of Dark Reapers supported by a Falcon is a force to be reckoned with. Much more economic than multiplying separate anti-infantry and anti-vehicles squads. Too many squads = you are setting yourself up for AOE attacks.
Gorb
Dreapers are solid, in my opinion. Highly dependent on positioning like Devastators. Try to treat them like a heavy weapons team from the previous games, instead of Dark Reapers as they were in vDoW. Opinion post.