I finished updating on steam, and the changes have not applied. Granted, I played a "Custom Solo" match whatever that means, so this may not be considered multiplayer.
@Mafiale said:
Eldar got punched right in the face. Holy... I am a SM player and I really wanted this nerf but relic really went too ham on Eldar ON THE FIRST GLANCE. Like almost everything the eldar has got nerfed. I am excited to see how this will play out.
And I am really happy about the TAC buff
Eldar players will be fine. They actually gotta play the game now. The ball is still in their park it just isnt as easy for them and they are higher risk to play.
@Azgoth said:
Ork changes to me are a disappointment.
It means still relying on trukks and suicide doctrine to win.
The lack of love for some of their other units means that not much will change in their gameplay at all.
With a the nerf to increased speed for boyz there isnt a hope they will stand up to the kiting they are subjected to early game. Their damage just isnt good enough I feel considering the effort it takes just to get them to other infantry
But! You never know
Hmm have you actually seen the buffs some of the ork walkers got? Mad dreads are probably gonna get used more now.
After a quick read through I do feel like they are on the right track and very much listening to the community. I feel pretty validated by some of the changes, particularly the Tac marine stuff which will make the faction as a whole more interesting to play.
That being said I think there is a good chance they will do some stat-buffs eldar wise to compensate for some of the alpha-strike damage they have lost, specifically with stacking hunt/quick strike. I want to play a few rounds before I get too uppity but all in all it looks good.
@RedDevilCG said: @Gorb Isn't popcop mostly cosmetic? I don't think I've seen a game where the 250 popcap has every been reached.
It certainly matters less than in previous games, but some of those increases are quite sizeable, and will be noticeable after a while.
IIRC, population affects resource generation. The higher your population, the slower your resources accrue, so the population costs are actually really important.
The improved webways doctrine is basically useless now though? What's the cooldown? I don't think anyone is going to take it simply for the self-healing ability.
tireless isnt OP just actually useful lol. i think the biggest doctrine to benifit from tac marines will be fire on the move being a valid option for kiting melee units. the tac grenades serve a purpose as a melee disengage. and ASM while nerfed are still useful they fill a role in which i think they were suppose to the whole time. there early game is more focused around screening your ranged units and mid game is when they start to be good at harass.
@MetalSlime Good point. I had forgotten about upkeep. @desmortes We will have to see if the Fire on the move doctrine was updated. In the last version, the bolters did less damage standing still as well as on the move. Hopefully, the damage now matches the default bolter when standing still. Will need someone to look at the attributes, or test in game to be sure.
@RedDevilCG said: @Gorb Isn't popcop mostly cosmetic? I don't think I've seen a game where the 250 popcap has every been reached.
It certainly matters less than in previous games, but some of those increases are quite sizeable, and will be noticeable after a while.
IIRC, population affects resource generation. The higher your population, the slower your resources accrue, so the population costs are actually really important.
@Azgoth said:
Ork changes to me are a disappointment.
It means still relying on trukks and suicide doctrine to win.
The lack of love for some of their other units means that not much will change in their gameplay at all.
With a the nerf to increased speed for boyz there isnt a hope they will stand up to the kiting they are subjected to early game. Their damage just isnt good enough I feel considering the effort it takes just to get them to other infantry
@JDizzleton said:
Good changes overall, I like it!
The improved webways doctrine is basically useless now though? What's the cooldown? I don't think anyone is going to take it simply for the self-healing ability.
It halves the cooldown, but its much better and faster to just build another webway then relocate.
And yes, its basically useless now.
@RedDevilCG said: @Gorb Isn't popcop mostly cosmetic? I don't think I've seen a game where the 250 popcap has every been reached.
It certainly matters less than in previous games, but some of those increases are quite sizeable, and will be noticeable after a while.
IIRC, population affects resource generation. The higher your population, the slower your resources accrue, so the population costs are actually really important.
@Azgoth said:
Ork changes to me are a disappointment.
It means still relying on trukks and suicide doctrine to win.
The lack of love for some of their other units means that not much will change in their gameplay at all.
With a the nerf to increased speed for boyz there isnt a hope they will stand up to the kiting they are subjected to early game. Their damage just isnt good enough I feel considering the effort it takes just to get them to other infantry
But! You never know
Actually the main reason their line units were weak were the asm leap, trukks, and the caster elite aoes doing too much damage due to the large number of units per squad (8 mostly), the aoe damage is multiplied by models hit so it hit orks way too hard. With all that nerfed I can see shootas and boys being more viable now through the game..
Still the trukk doctrine is powerful and I believe will be staying in ork armies for the time being. But at least theres more than just trukks now.
@RedDevilCG said:
Wow, these are some great patch notes.
Now comes the fun part: seeing how they play-out over the next couple of weeks, and finding any ninja-changes.
@Gorb Isn't popcop mostly cosmetic? I don't think I've seen a game where the 250 popcap has ever been reached.
Popcap makes a big difference, upkeep starts at 30 pop and scales linearly. You used to be able to field 3 asm squads without any upkeep.
@Azgoth said:
Ork changes to me are a disappointment.
It means still relying on trukks and suicide doctrine to win.
The lack of love for some of their other units means that not much will change in their gameplay at all.
With a the nerf to increased speed for boyz there isnt a hope they will stand up to the kiting they are subjected to early game. Their damage just isnt good enough I feel considering the effort it takes just to get them to other infantry
But! You never know
Keep in mind that other stuff was nerfed, it never like Orks were UP, other units just were much stronger. Many AoE abilites now are capped to only hit 5 models, so that will mean Orks take a lot less damage.
Yeah, early and mid game Elite AOE abilities really punished the Ork larger squad numbers. Now they will be much more survivable in the mid game with the model hit cap reduction on many abilities. This will mean squad wipes aren't happening like. Relying 100% on boys may not be the best strategy now. Maybe this will see some boyz/shootah hybrid builds going forward.
I know Eldar was a OP, but that is insane. They nerfed every somewhat decent unit except for the still broken Kyre, and ofc webway gate, as well as bonesinger teleport so you can't get the gate up early at a good spot. Eldar is gonna get slaughtered in the early game and without the advantages from the mapcontrol falcon timing is gone as well. That means fighting infantry vs trukks on even resources in EvO.
And ofc trukks can still stunlock targets, ASMs are nerfed but probably still decent and tacks should be good now as well. Time to rush Kyre and pray I guess.
People, please do heed that all these comments are but speculations and theory crafting. It is too early to speak upon all the changes so far, while Eldar did deserve nerfs in a couple of areas we also got a nerf to the general Race design of what the Eldar are supposed to be like. As a first impression i am very disappointed in the Webway gate not being able to relocate in Tier 1.
We are supposed to be Hit & Run, and now that's taken away from us. Feels a bit of an overkill in my eyes, as it also fucks with the races core design. Time to camp that webway gate. (Exaggeration, haven't tried the patch yet)
@wongtp said:
omg that req base rate gain. why? im floating like 2k req in the early game now lol.
Pop increases mean players hit the upkeep penalties sooner and have their resource rates slow down faster. Increased base rate for requisition paired with higher refunds for lost units mean it's easier to recover from full wipes.
It follows what they stated about not wanting early losses to feel so devastating, since a player can recover faster while the opponent can't build up a lead as quickly.
Interesting patch for sure. Time will tell if Eldar got the nerf stick a tad too hard.
@wongtp said:
omg that req base rate gain. why? im floating like 2k req in the early game now lol.
Fairly sure it's about comeback potential. If you don't control the map you still can push out some units and if you loose a squad early it's less of a gamebreaker.
Seemed like one of the overall goals was to take down a lot of alpha strike instant death potential. AOE got hit across the board. Along with that resources went up during the early game. I think were gonna see a lot less en mass wipeouts, little more build up of forces across the length of the match. Having said that few units were buffed for durability and many had a sustained damage increase so there is that.
The eldar were hit almost across the board but read close and they did get some love. Stronger fire prisms for one thank god. DA got hit way too hard. Range debuff fine. Shield hit and range debuff....maybe. Gut their immediate burst before they have to run because cooldown, and now youre gonna need some numbers.
I've been doing tac flamer rush plus grenade and move and shoot since day 1. Cant wait to throw it out now, especially since DA have to come into flamer range. Outside 1v1 still not going to use killteam but in 1v1 i see them being an almost auto pick.
Orks....not much really changed. With ASM not being so common and aoe taking a massive hit boys might have been indirectly mega buffed. But thats the thing orks seemed to have changed most from the changes to other factions. Dreads kick even more ++heresy redacted++ now though. Kinda wish shoota grenades had taken a slight hit.
I'm wondering if this will enable faster 1v1 matches and more concise predetermine victories while still allowing for some comeback mechanics. The turret nerfs and initial resource buffs should determine games quicker for better skilled players without artificially lengthening games with 'too stronk' turrets.
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Comments
Larkis
Soinds interesting. I think i will play a lot space matine now. They now sound a lot funnier then before.
Larger
I'm confused...
I finished updating on steam, and the changes have not applied. Granted, I played a "Custom Solo" match whatever that means, so this may not be considered multiplayer.
RedDevilCG
Wow, these are some great patch notes.
Now comes the fun part: seeing how they play-out over the next couple of weeks, and finding any ninja-changes.
@Gorb Isn't popcop mostly cosmetic? I don't think I've seen a game where the 250 popcap has ever been reached.
Gorb
It certainly matters less than in previous games, but some of those increases are quite sizeable, and will be noticeable after a while.
CANNED_F3TUS
Eldar players will be fine. They actually gotta play the game now. The ball is still in their park it just isnt as easy for them and they are higher risk to play.
CANNED_F3TUS
Hmm have you actually seen the buffs some of the ork walkers got? Mad dreads are probably gonna get used more now.
jambai
Feels like eldar was a bit overnerfed.
Andtaxes
After a quick read through I do feel like they are on the right track and very much listening to the community. I feel pretty validated by some of the changes, particularly the Tac marine stuff which will make the faction as a whole more interesting to play.
That being said I think there is a good chance they will do some stat-buffs eldar wise to compensate for some of the alpha-strike damage they have lost, specifically with stacking hunt/quick strike. I want to play a few rounds before I get too uppity but all in all it looks good.
MetalSlime
IIRC, population affects resource generation. The higher your population, the slower your resources accrue, so the population costs are actually really important.
Here: https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/10765/upkeep-and-you
JDizzleton
Good changes overall, I like it!
The improved webways doctrine is basically useless now though? What's the cooldown? I don't think anyone is going to take it simply for the self-healing ability.
desmortes
tireless isnt OP just actually useful lol. i think the biggest doctrine to benifit from tac marines will be fire on the move being a valid option for kiting melee units. the tac grenades serve a purpose as a melee disengage. and ASM while nerfed are still useful they fill a role in which i think they were suppose to the whole time. there early game is more focused around screening your ranged units and mid game is when they start to be good at harass.
RedDevilCG
@MetalSlime Good point. I had forgotten about upkeep.
@desmortes We will have to see if the Fire on the move doctrine was updated. In the last version, the bolters did less damage standing still as well as on the move. Hopefully, the damage now matches the default bolter when standing still. Will need someone to look at the attributes, or test in game to be sure.
PrimaGoosa
It makes me happier than you can imagine that that old thread still finds some use.
Hack
^^^ Yep
Katitof
It halves the cooldown, but its much better and faster to just build another webway then relocate.
And yes, its basically useless now.
Gorb
I'd forgotten about this too - good catch. Population matters more than the cap itself represents.
Scrangos
Actually the main reason their line units were weak were the asm leap, trukks, and the caster elite aoes doing too much damage due to the large number of units per squad (8 mostly), the aoe damage is multiplied by models hit so it hit orks way too hard. With all that nerfed I can see shootas and boys being more viable now through the game..
Still the trukk doctrine is powerful and I believe will be staying in ork armies for the time being. But at least theres more than just trukks now.
Scrangos
Popcap makes a big difference, upkeep starts at 30 pop and scales linearly. You used to be able to field 3 asm squads without any upkeep.
wongtp
omg that req base rate gain. why? im floating like 2k req in the early game now lol.
Grendelrt
Any idea on what the AI changes are? I would like to some harder ai tiers above hard.
Krupp
Keep in mind that other stuff was nerfed, it never like Orks were UP, other units just were much stronger. Many AoE abilites now are capped to only hit 5 models, so that will mean Orks take a lot less damage.
RedDevilCG
Yeah, early and mid game Elite AOE abilities really punished the Ork larger squad numbers. Now they will be much more survivable in the mid game with the model hit cap reduction on many abilities. This will mean squad wipes aren't happening like. Relying 100% on boys may not be the best strategy now. Maybe this will see some boyz/shootah hybrid builds going forward.
Old_Raven
I know Eldar was a OP, but that is insane. They nerfed every somewhat decent unit except for the still broken Kyre, and ofc webway gate, as well as bonesinger teleport so you can't get the gate up early at a good spot. Eldar is gonna get slaughtered in the early game and without the advantages from the mapcontrol falcon timing is gone as well. That means fighting infantry vs trukks on even resources in EvO.
And ofc trukks can still stunlock targets, ASMs are nerfed but probably still decent and tacks should be good now as well. Time to rush Kyre and pray I guess.
Cataclawy
People, please do heed that all these comments are but speculations and theory crafting. It is too early to speak upon all the changes so far, while Eldar did deserve nerfs in a couple of areas we also got a nerf to the general Race design of what the Eldar are supposed to be like. As a first impression i am very disappointed in the Webway gate not being able to relocate in Tier 1.
We are supposed to be Hit & Run, and now that's taken away from us. Feels a bit of an overkill in my eyes, as it also fucks with the races core design. Time to camp that webway gate. (Exaggeration, haven't tried the patch yet)
AtlasDoomOcculta
Pop increases mean players hit the upkeep penalties sooner and have their resource rates slow down faster. Increased base rate for requisition paired with higher refunds for lost units mean it's easier to recover from full wipes.
It follows what they stated about not wanting early losses to feel so devastating, since a player can recover faster while the opponent can't build up a lead as quickly.
Interesting patch for sure. Time will tell if Eldar got the nerf stick a tad too hard.
Old_Raven
Fairly sure it's about comeback potential. If you don't control the map you still can push out some units and if you loose a squad early it's less of a gamebreaker.
Hellhound
Seemed like one of the overall goals was to take down a lot of alpha strike instant death potential. AOE got hit across the board. Along with that resources went up during the early game. I think were gonna see a lot less en mass wipeouts, little more build up of forces across the length of the match. Having said that few units were buffed for durability and many had a sustained damage increase so there is that.
The eldar were hit almost across the board but read close and they did get some love. Stronger fire prisms for one thank god. DA got hit way too hard. Range debuff fine. Shield hit and range debuff....maybe. Gut their immediate burst before they have to run because cooldown, and now youre gonna need some numbers.
I've been doing tac flamer rush plus grenade and move and shoot since day 1. Cant wait to throw it out now, especially since DA have to come into flamer range. Outside 1v1 still not going to use killteam but in 1v1 i see them being an almost auto pick.
Orks....not much really changed. With ASM not being so common and aoe taking a massive hit boys might have been indirectly mega buffed. But thats the thing orks seemed to have changed most from the changes to other factions. Dreads kick even more ++heresy redacted++ now though. Kinda wish shoota grenades had taken a slight hit.
KommandantKavu
I'm wondering if this will enable faster 1v1 matches and more concise predetermine victories while still allowing for some comeback mechanics. The turret nerfs and initial resource buffs should determine games quicker for better skilled players without artificially lengthening games with 'too stronk' turrets.