@GiggleHz said:
Oh this game is dead as a door nail....they tried to go MOBA hoping to bring in vast amount of players....after less than a month its not even top 100 played games on steam....Flopped like a dead fish this game. I genuinely hope they make a master piece of an expansion and revive this game.
Different game modes would be an excellent start wtf were they thinking 1 moba inspired mode...yah okay that worked great ;/
I doubt this would happen but, rework the art style a bit i cant stand the art style it looks exactly like a Bliz game, even down to Gabriels skipping instead of walking animations.
Add an actual fleshed out building system with defensive structures for god's sake.
The more i play this game,the less the art style bothers me. Its actually better and more detailed than the previous 2 DoWs
I feel like the way to get it back online would have been to combine the patch with a race DLC announcement. You get everyone re-interested in the balance, bring tired players back to the game, then give them a piece of content to share with their friends to draw those folks back in as well. Coordinating the fixing of gameplay issues with new content that people are excited about (Necrons, Tau, anything but predictable Chaos), would have been a good way to create a publicity wave. Articles could have started with "DLC was announced and it is this cool race, also check out the game because they fixed a lot of issues". But no, the patch went live and nothing else was announced. They energized the core player base, but did nothing to engage and draw in the more peripheral users.
Now, any DLC added is going to have a watered down effect. I get that they wanted to see if the patch was well-received, but at this point they don't have much to lose.
That being said, maybe the new content isn't quite ready to announce yet, but I feel like they must at least know the first 1-2 DLC announcements and could easily have made a blog post with a few images, maybe a gif, or even concept art.
Actually you don't need that much from Relic themselves to get a community going. Tbh it's more dependent on the players and a few individuals to build a solid community than anything else.
DoW1 started the same, you had not many players being active in the community after the first month (well the general mood was better compared to now...). However what you got were a few quite invested individuals who really pushed the game not only in terms of tournaments, but also in terms of community events etc.
There were people like EugenusMaximus etc. who build up the community, then we got ESL involved etc. In those days Relic did nothing in terms of community service. We waited ages for every patch because the game still ran on GameSpy and apparantly it was a hassle to patch games on GameSpy. We organized ++heresy redacted++ like one day tournaments every weekend. At the beginning with 16 players. After one year or so we needed 256 brackets for some tournaments. The tournaments in the beginning were quite empty but we just pushed on, we got more content gamewise and after a while we also had the players. We also pushed THQ and Relic in terms of interviews (back then with Buggo). There were no prices in the tournaments until Dark Crusade, after that it got much better. We got sponsoring from THQ, we could get decent prizes for tournaments etc. We even got tournaments with offline finals like ConflictX. This development was not because THQ and Relic suddenly decided, hey just throw money at these guys. This happened because they showed over the years, what influence they held in the dow fan community and that they got ++heresy redacted++ done.
What I want to say with this short story: There is actually something you can do: You can organize community stuff. You can try to organize interviews, you can try to get tournaments with e.g. ESL. You won't have the players in the beginning, but you have to show that you are trustworthy, a decent admin and especially that you are consistent and get stuff on the way on a regular basis. And in general people underestimate the influence of a few people who push the game in the community on the development of the game.
@DmonBlu said:
The Emperor rewards his faithful... Just keep the game alive till its got balanced appropriately and some exposures to the public. RTS is a fkin dead genre and reviving it will take lots more than hope and excuses. Hopefully after things settle they will put the game on sale cuz its horribly overpriced (dem greedy SEGA jerks) and the lacks of content doesnt help much either:((
Want to see how to revive the whole genre? Watch what happens if blizzard announce WarCraft 4 tomorrow. Genre's not dead.
@DmonBlu said:
The Emperor rewards his faithful... Just keep the game alive till its got balanced appropriately and some exposures to the public. RTS is a fkin dead genre and reviving it will take lots more than hope and excuses. Hopefully after things settle they will put the game on sale cuz its horribly overpriced (dem greedy SEGA jerks) and the lacks of content doesnt help much either:((
Want to see how to revive the whole genre? Watch what happens if blizzard announce WarCraft 4 tomorrow. Genre's not dead.
Hmmm........That would be nice, but it seems that even Blizzard can't be trusted at all now. It might end that, that Warcraft 4 will became heavilly esport focused title that is hard and frustrating to play for casuals, like Starcraft 2 is now. Also who knows, they might be add Moba like focus on heroes in that not yet annouced title.
@DmonBlu said:
The Emperor rewards his faithful... Just keep the game alive till its got balanced appropriately and some exposures to the public. RTS is a fkin dead genre and reviving it will take lots more than hope and excuses. Hopefully after things settle they will put the game on sale cuz its horribly overpriced (dem greedy SEGA jerks) and the lacks of content doesnt help much either:((
Want to see how to revive the whole genre? Watch what happens if blizzard announce WarCraft 4 tomorrow. Genre's not dead.
Hmmm........That would be nice, but seems that even Blizzard can't be trusted at all. It might end that, that Warcraft 4 will became heavilly esport focused title that is hard and frustrating to play for casuals, like Starcraft 2 is now. Also who knows, they might be add Moba like focus on heroes in that not yet annouced title.
Even Blizzard is not same as it was once anymore.
Well its a lot of what if's, even what I would consider a reaction. But pretty sure if Blizzard even just announced war craft 4 that the hype would explode. They could still totally screw it up and launch it like crap but that isn't my point. My point is the genre isn't dead, and the explosion of hype we all feel pretty confident would happen with an announcement like war craft 4 would reinforce that.
meta is in a really good place now. i would say balance is close to perfect, with a few more units and bugs needing attention. While I havent been having problems finding games, I'd love DoW3 to have more players and be more popular. I'm hoping we'll see the population steadily rise over the years as more DLC and expansion packs are released.
the biggest priority of Relic right now is to fix the replay system so we can get more casters going.
@DmonBlu said:
The Emperor rewards his faithful... Just keep the game alive till its got balanced appropriately and some exposures to the public. RTS is a fkin dead genre and reviving it will take lots more than hope and excuses. Hopefully after things settle they will put the game on sale cuz its horribly overpriced (dem greedy SEGA jerks) and the lacks of content doesnt help much either:((
Want to see how to revive the whole genre? Watch what happens if blizzard announce WarCraft 4 tomorrow. Genre's not dead.
Hmmm........That would be nice, but seems that even Blizzard can't be trusted at all. It might end that, that Warcraft 4 will became heavilly esport focused title that is hard and frustrating to play for casuals, like Starcraft 2 is now. Also who knows, they might be add Moba like focus on heroes in that not yet annouced title.
Even Blizzard is not same as it was once anymore.
Well its a lot of what if's, even what I would consider a reaction. But pretty sure if Blizzard even just announced war craft 4 that the hype would explode. They could still totally screw it up and launch it like crap but that isn't my point. My point is the genre isn't dead, and the explosion of hype we all feel pretty confident would happen with an announcement like war craft 4 would reinforce that.
I could argue the exact opposite with exactly the same argument. The explosion of hype we all feel pretty confident would happen with an announcement like war craft 4 and only war craft 4 shows that the genre is quite dead and only nostalgia keeps it barely alive...
Why else would only exactly one game have a decent shot at being successfull in this genre...
@DmonBlu said:
The Emperor rewards his faithful... Just keep the game alive till its got balanced appropriately and some exposures to the public. RTS is a fkin dead genre and reviving it will take lots more than hope and excuses. Hopefully after things settle they will put the game on sale cuz its horribly overpriced (dem greedy SEGA jerks) and the lacks of content doesnt help much either:((
Want to see how to revive the whole genre? Watch what happens if blizzard announce WarCraft 4 tomorrow. Genre's not dead.
Hmmm........That would be nice, but seems that even Blizzard can't be trusted at all. It might end that, that Warcraft 4 will became heavilly esport focused title that is hard and frustrating to play for casuals, like Starcraft 2 is now. Also who knows, they might be add Moba like focus on heroes in that not yet annouced title.
Even Blizzard is not same as it was once anymore.
Well its a lot of what if's, even what I would consider a reaction. But pretty sure if Blizzard even just announced war craft 4 that the hype would explode. They could still totally screw it up and launch it like crap but that isn't my point. My point is the genre isn't dead, and the explosion of hype we all feel pretty confident would happen with an announcement like war craft 4 would reinforce that.
Yes, perhaps this genre isn't dead, thanks also to some indie developers. But truth is that RTS isn't now popular as it was, due to bloom of MOBA and FPS poularities. Even Blizzard in June 2015 had released own MOBA called Heroes of the Storm, which I play it to today, well it is the only Blizzard game I play currently - I own also Diablo 3, Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2, all with expansions and even Starcraft1 with BroodWar, but I don't playing them since long time. Blizzard has also own Hero shooter called Overwatch which is probably was beginning of popularity of Hero Shooters or shooters with moba-like heroes.
Anyways, RTS genre isn't dead, true, but it isn't either popular anymore. It is just niche genre now as most are saying about it.
@DmonBlu said:
The Emperor rewards his faithful... Just keep the game alive till its got balanced appropriately and some exposures to the public. RTS is a fkin dead genre and reviving it will take lots more than hope and excuses. Hopefully after things settle they will put the game on sale cuz its horribly overpriced (dem greedy SEGA jerks) and the lacks of content doesnt help much either:((
Want to see how to revive the whole genre? Watch what happens if blizzard announce WarCraft 4 tomorrow. Genre's not dead.
Hmmm........That would be nice, but it seems that even Blizzard can't be trusted at all now. It might end that, that Warcraft 4 will became heavilly esport focused title that is hard and frustrating to play for casuals, like Starcraft 2 is now. Also who knows, they might be add Moba like focus on heroes in that not yet annouced title.
Even Blizzard is not same as it was once anymore.
Disagree. SCII is MUCH more casual friendly than SCI/BW, difference is quite enormous. Plus Bliz have pretty nice matchmaking system which doesn't pitch you against top players from the get go, so you have more even ground to train and improve. DOW was never that forgiving in that regard.
Considering WarCraft, 3 was slower and overall easier than SCI, and with 4th I'm sure they would continue tradition so it technically should be more casual friendly even than SCII. Blizzard aren't known for big sways in terms of innovations, so I'm sure WC4 would be launched with same 4 races, Hero units, exp, creeps, shops and etc but new, prettier engine and small tweaks to gameplay mechanics. Only idea why Bliz doesn't announce WC4 is because their hands are full with one e-Sport RTS already, two will be to hard and too expensive to maintain, plus WOW, plus HoTS, plus Overwatch... well, you get the picture.
@DmonBlu said:
The Emperor rewards his faithful... Just keep the game alive till its got balanced appropriately and some exposures to the public. RTS is a fkin dead genre and reviving it will take lots more than hope and excuses. Hopefully after things settle they will put the game on sale cuz its horribly overpriced (dem greedy SEGA jerks) and the lacks of content doesnt help much either:((
Want to see how to revive the whole genre? Watch what happens if blizzard announce WarCraft 4 tomorrow. Genre's not dead.
Hmmm........That would be nice, but it seems that even Blizzard can't be trusted at all now. It might end that, that Warcraft 4 will became heavilly esport focused title that is hard and frustrating to play for casuals, like Starcraft 2 is now. Also who knows, they might be add Moba like focus on heroes in that not yet annouced title.
Even Blizzard is not same as it was once anymore.
Disagree. SCII is MUCH more casual friendly than SCI/BW, difference is quite enormous. Plus Bliz have pretty nice matchmaking system which doesn't pitch you against top players from the get go, so you have more even ground to train and improve. DOW was never that forgiving in that regard.
Considering WarCraft, 3 was slower and overall easier than SCI, and with 4th I'm sure they would continue tradition so it technically should be more casual friendly even than SCII. Blizzard aren't known for big sways in terms of innovations, so I'm sure WC4 would be launched with same 4 races, Hero units, exp, creeps, shops and etc but new, prettier engine and small tweaks to gameplay mechanics. Only idea why Bliz doesn't announce WC4 is because their hands are full with one e-Sport RTS already, two will be to hard and too expensive to maintain, plus WOW, plus HoTS, plus Overwatch... well, you get the picture.
Perhaps you might be right. But I was visiting SC2's american forums many times and there was complain threads about "the game is dead", "this unit is OP" or even "Blizz doesn't care". What I read there that SC2 was pushed into e-sport too much, that even Korean players had struggled in mastering this game, and yet Blizzard said that this game is supposed to be hard even for pro players. Perhaps SC2 is more casual friendly than SC/BW, I don't know. But I read in its forum that many casuals quitted because of imbalanced multi and only hardcore players stayed with it. Also it seems that more focus on this game lies in Coop now. Not to mention that Protoss in SC2 is weakest race to play now.......
@DmonBlu said:
The Emperor rewards his faithful... Just keep the game alive till its got balanced appropriately and some exposures to the public. RTS is a fkin dead genre and reviving it will take lots more than hope and excuses. Hopefully after things settle they will put the game on sale cuz its horribly overpriced (dem greedy SEGA jerks) and the lacks of content doesnt help much either:((
Want to see how to revive the whole genre? Watch what happens if blizzard announce WarCraft 4 tomorrow. Genre's not dead.
Hmmm........That would be nice, but seems that even Blizzard can't be trusted at all. It might end that, that Warcraft 4 will became heavilly esport focused title that is hard and frustrating to play for casuals, like Starcraft 2 is now. Also who knows, they might be add Moba like focus on heroes in that not yet annouced title.
Even Blizzard is not same as it was once anymore.
Well its a lot of what if's, even what I would consider a reaction. But pretty sure if Blizzard even just announced war craft 4 that the hype would explode. They could still totally screw it up and launch it like crap but that isn't my point. My point is the genre isn't dead, and the explosion of hype we all feel pretty confident would happen with an announcement like war craft 4 would reinforce that.
I could argue the exact opposite with exactly the same argument. The explosion of hype we all feel pretty confident would happen with an announcement like war craft 4 and only war craft 4 shows that the genre is quite dead and only nostalgia keeps it barely alive...
Why else would only exactly one game have a decent shot at being successfull in this genre...
The hard truth of that, is that in the real time market a lot of studio's have dragged their brand through the mud and pushed the people who like those kinds of games to the studios that were doing it proper. Command and conquer, pretty fun series right? I have quite a few in the series red alert 3 being the one I played the most. What happened? Tiberian twilight right? No one wanted to get close to that IP after that game sank the brand. Halo wars? Tried to bring an FPS crowd into a console only RTS using a controller and map scroll. Hindsight probably a pretty bad idea, and it never grew a huge core fanbase despite good reviews, game originated in 2009, was ported to PC Dec 2016. Planetary annihilation, 2014 had a really interesting concept that I enjoyed (mostly cause I like the idea of blowing up planets) but its kinda niche on its own with its very different gameplay (I personally liked) wasn't for everyone though. The reason a blizzard announcement, and really just a blizzard announcement would generate so much hype is because of the reputation that developer has, were talking millions of people. Some who were RTS players before they were sucked into the wallet blackhole that was essentially WoW. Genre's not dead, choice is just extremely limited because a lot of the old good RTS studios ruined their own brands. No one really remembers or appreciates the good things you do as a company or a person, but if you screw up once that will be seared into their head for a long time. Especially if that person on the other end spent money on it.
@DmonBlu said:
The Emperor rewards his faithful... Just keep the game alive till its got balanced appropriately and some exposures to the public. RTS is a fkin dead genre and reviving it will take lots more than hope and excuses. Hopefully after things settle they will put the game on sale cuz its horribly overpriced (dem greedy SEGA jerks) and the lacks of content doesnt help much either:((
Want to see how to revive the whole genre? Watch what happens if blizzard announce WarCraft 4 tomorrow. Genre's not dead.
Hmmm........That would be nice, but it seems that even Blizzard can't be trusted at all now. It might end that, that Warcraft 4 will became heavilly esport focused title that is hard and frustrating to play for casuals, like Starcraft 2 is now. Also who knows, they might be add Moba like focus on heroes in that not yet annouced title.
Even Blizzard is not same as it was once anymore.
Disagree. SCII is MUCH more casual friendly than SCI/BW, difference is quite enormous. Plus Bliz have pretty nice matchmaking system which doesn't pitch you against top players from the get go, so you have more even ground to train and improve. DOW was never that forgiving in that regard.
Considering WarCraft, 3 was slower and overall easier than SCI, and with 4th I'm sure they would continue tradition so it technically should be more casual friendly even than SCII. Blizzard aren't known for big sways in terms of innovations, so I'm sure WC4 would be launched with same 4 races, Hero units, exp, creeps, shops and etc but new, prettier engine and small tweaks to gameplay mechanics. Only idea why Bliz doesn't announce WC4 is because their hands are full with one e-Sport RTS already, two will be to hard and too expensive to maintain, plus WOW, plus HoTS, plus Overwatch... well, you get the picture.
Perhaps you might be right. But I was visiting SC2's american forums many times and there was complain threads about "the game is dead", "this unit is OP" or even "Blizz doesn't care". What I read there that SC2 was pushed into e-sport too much, that even Korean players had struggled in mastering this game, and yet Blizzard said that this game is supposed to be hard even for pro players. Perhaps SC2 is more casual friendly than SC/BW, I don't know. But I read in its forum that many casuals quitted because of imbalanced multi and only hardcore players stayed with it. Also it seems that more focus on this game lies in Coop now. Not to mention that Protoss in SC2 is weakest race to play now.......
I haven't visited SC2 for quite some time now, and these posts about imbalances exist on every RTS forum. I don't claim that balance is perfect, but from my personal experience, Toss (my main race) isn't weak but more micro intensive than others, so often it was hard to win vs. other races for me. But judging by topplayer vids, I just lack skills to play them well enough. And on account on overall balance, there are lots of e-Sport tournaments on SC2 every now and then with money prizes and Bliz takes e-Sport very seriously, so I don't think it's that bad as some players claim.
Play the game, garner a good community, get involved with community events, watch streams and vods, give feedback(good and bad but always constructive).
They have done a really good job with this balance patch and the game has tons of potential from what I have seen and experienced.
Don't look to the problem(quoting numbers and stats) look to the solutions - what can you personally do, that might range from just playing the game to setting up events and more.
If you are passionate about the game show it in whatever form you can.
@Draconix said:
Perhaps you might be right. But I was visiting SC2's american forums many times and there was complain threads about "the game is dead", "this unit is OP" or even "Blizz doesn't care". What I read there that SC2 was pushed into e-sport too much, that even Korean players had struggled in mastering this game, and yet Blizzard said that this game is supposed to be hard even for pro players. Perhaps SC2 is more casual friendly than SC/BW, I don't know. But I read in its forum that many casuals quitted because of imbalanced multi and only hardcore players stayed with it. Also it seems that more focus on this game lies in Coop now. Not to mention that Protoss in SC2 is weakest race to play now.......
Well there is your issue. For years now the main forums for various races and the competitive forum have been like that, toxic and prone to hyperbole. The coop section is usually a lot friendlier. As to starcraft 2 being more casual friendly. It is far more friendly with many quality of life improvements even in the single-player crowd. I say this as someone who prefers casual single-player and co-op mode. Now the single-player and co-op modes, will not prepare someone if they try to dive into ranked or even un-ranked multiplayer.
Side note: I'm very glad that the co-op mode is gaining popularity.
@Draconix said:
Perhaps you might be right. But I was visiting SC2's american forums many times and there was complain threads about "the game is dead", "this unit is OP" or even "Blizz doesn't care". What I read there that SC2 was pushed into e-sport too much, that even Korean players had struggled in mastering this game, and yet Blizzard said that this game is supposed to be hard even for pro players. Perhaps SC2 is more casual friendly than SC/BW, I don't know. But I read in its forum that many casuals quitted because of imbalanced multi and only hardcore players stayed with it. Also it seems that more focus on this game lies in Coop now. Not to mention that Protoss in SC2 is weakest race to play now.......
Well there is your issue. For years now the main forums for various races and the competitive forum have been like that, toxic and prone to hyperbole. The coop section is usually a lot friendlier. As to starcraft 2 being more casual friendly. It is far more friendly with many quality of life improvements even in the single-player crowd. I say this as someone who prefers casual single-player and co-op mode. Now the single-player and co-op modes, will not prepare someone if they try to dive into ranked or even un-ranked multiplayer.
Side note: I'm very glad that the co-op mode is gaining popularity.
Perhaps you're right. If I would play Starcraft 2 again, then rather for campaign and coop especially, its skirmish isn't interesting for me. Too bad, however that new commanders are now paid DLC, but oh well. At least Dow 3 can have interesting skirmish for me thanks to elite unit and doctrine system. But its just my opinion on skirmish though.
As a ending, if there ever would be a new faction, then I will gladly pay for it, regardless if it is DLC or expansion.
Btw, how do you guys find "improved" AI? Not big fan of compstomp, but it's good to test some stuff out. So, pre-patch beating Hard Eldar as SM was very hard in 1v1, now I'm beating them quite easily, as well as Orks or SM. How about you, folks?
And yeah, there are some improvements, units don't stuck as much, AI learned to use workers for melee as well as putting them inside gens for shield, but overall they still spread out too much and suicide single squads into my army...
@Stoner said:
Btw, how do you guys find "improved" AI? Not big fan of compstomp, but it's good to test some stuff out. So, pre-patch beating Hard Eldar as SM was very hard in 1v1, now I'm beating them quite easily, as well as Orks or SM. How about you, folks?
And yeah, there are some improvements, units don't stuck as much, AI learned to use workers for melee as well as putting them inside gens for shield, but overall they still spread out too much and suicide single squads into my army...
Same experience you're having. The AI still isn't showing the intelligence half of that term
Add decent maps. MOBAish 1v1 maps are problems. Two 1v1 maps are so small. Paths are narrow. They are the reason why people blame that dow3 is moba. Add decent classic RTS maps.
Add another annihilation mod. It seems that people don't really get into Power core mod. I would say it was nice try, but it didn't work.
Remove escalation phase. This is so awkward system. Obsession for bigger army made this system. just make 250/50 upgrade give more resource or find another way for bigger army.
People are lazy. They want something familiar with them. MOBAish map, power core mod, escalation phase are not what people want from RTS, especially DoW series.
I think relic is listening to community.. and me.. hahaha.. new patch coming!
Do you know why this game has failed?. Easy. Because it's not dow1 but with updated graphics.
This is another barebones game like dow2; boring; few types of units; almost no upgrades; etc.
The quality of the first dow game and the expansions we saw after are so huge to this day that it simply puts its successors to shame. The units; animations; races; upgrades; tactics; the fun involved in its play..., everything still stands out when compared to what we have now in dow3, and of course it does as well when compared to dow2.
Do you Relic want dow to be successful again?. Just make one like dow1 but with better graphics; beginning with at least four races; a decent amount of different units; lots of upgrades, and for the love of the god make it RTS again, not this.
Is it that difficult to understand really?. DOW1 RELIC! Why can't you just understand it.
@Fernandito said:
Do you know why this game has failed?. Easy. Because it's not dow1 but with updated graphics.
This is another barebones game like dow2; boring; few types of units; almost no upgrades; etc.
The quality of the first dow game and the expansions we saw after are so huge to this day that it simply puts its successors to shame. The units; animations; races; upgrades; tactics; the fun involved in its play..., everything still stands out when compared to what we have now in dow3, and of course it does as well when compared to dow2.
Do you Relic want dow to be successful again?. Just make one like dow1 but with better graphics; beginning with at least four races; a decent amount of different units; lots of upgrades, and for the love of the god make it RTS again, not this.
Is it that difficult to understand really?. DOW1 RELIC! Why can't you just understand it.
Someone's dissapointed because its not like Dow1...........please.
I know that Dow3 isn't same or even great as Dow1 or Dow2, but I appreciate it for being different just like these two. So I will play that game too.
And if has to satisfy that you, Dow 3 will get Annihilation mode. But if you likes Dow1 so much, then you should play it rathen than ranting on Dow3.
Also for criticizing Dow2.......... some people like Nassir Amir would like to talk with you.
Well, my only problem with the game right now is that the great majority of players that stayed in the game are much better than me - so I now lose game after game which sucks... But I still think the game is great.
@Fernandito said:
Do you know why this game has failed?. Easy. Because it's not dow1 but with updated graphics.
This is another barebones game like dow2; boring; few types of units; almost no upgrades; etc.
The quality of the first dow game and the expansions we saw after are so huge to this day that it simply puts its successors to shame. The units; animations; races; upgrades; tactics; the fun involved in its play..., everything still stands out when compared to what we have now in dow3, and of course it does as well when compared to dow2.
Do you Relic want dow to be successful again?. Just make one like dow1 but with better graphics; beginning with at least four races; a decent amount of different units; lots of upgrades, and for the love of the god make it RTS again, not this.
Is it that difficult to understand really?. DOW1 RELIC! Why can't you just understand it.
I smell alot of bias coming out of this post.
DoW 1 was a great game but it took time to get there.
DoW 3 will be just as good or even better than DoW 1 once all the pieces are put together and its received its expansions like DoW 1. It might not have reached DoW 1 level of content yet because its still new.
Also i wouldnt say that unit upgrades and units are lacking. The unit roster is just as good as DoW 1. The roster is just split between line units and elites and relic is known to add new units down the road. Who knows.
Unit upgrades are split between doctrines and ingame unit upgrades so id say they are roughly at the same level as DoW 1 (almost). DoW 1 does have more upgrades no doubt but Relic wanted to design the game in a way that didnt have units that can counter everything. This adds strategy and more decision making in itself.
Relic is trying to get both the DoW 1 and 2 camps back under 1 roof and i think they did a fairly good job at combining the best if both games,
@CANNED_F3TUS said:
I smell alot of bias coming out of this post.
DoW 1 was a great game but it took time to get there.
DoW 3 will be just as good or even better than DoW 1 once all the pieces are put together and its received its expansions like DoW 1. It might not have reached DoW 1 level of content yet because its still new.
Also i wouldnt say that unit upgrades and units are lacking. The unit roster is just as good as DoW 1. The roster is just split between line units and elites and relic is known to add new units down the road. Who knows.
Unit upgrades are split between doctrines and ingame unit upgrades so id say they are roughly at the same level as DoW 1 (almost). DoW 1 does have more upgrades no doubt but Relic wanted to design the game in a way that didnt have units that can counter everything. This adds strategy and more decision making in itself.
Relic is trying to get both the DoW 1 and 2 camps back under 1 roof and i think they did a fairly good job at combining the best if both games,
Irony time!
DOW3 may become better than DoW1 once all the pieces are released. We don't know how much is coming full stop. 1 expac might be all we see.
This is all just opinions.
Unit upgrades don't exist for many things like compartmentalised weapon choices for units.
@CANNED_F3TUS said:
I smell alot of bias coming out of this post.
DoW 1 was a great game but it took time to get there.
DoW 3 will be just as good or even better than DoW 1 once all the pieces are put together and its received its expansions like DoW 1. It might not have reached DoW 1 level of content yet because its still new.
Also i wouldnt say that unit upgrades and units are lacking. The unit roster is just as good as DoW 1. The roster is just split between line units and elites and relic is known to add new units down the road. Who knows.
Unit upgrades are split between doctrines and ingame unit upgrades so id say they are roughly at the same level as DoW 1 (almost). DoW 1 does have more upgrades no doubt but Relic wanted to design the game in a way that didnt have units that can counter everything. This adds strategy and more decision making in itself.
Relic is trying to get both the DoW 1 and 2 camps back under 1 roof and i think they did a fairly good job at combining the best if both games,
Irony time!
DOW3 may become better than DoW1 once all the pieces are released. We don't know how much is coming full stop. 1 expac might be all we see.
This is all just opinions.
Unit upgrades don't exist for many things like compartmentalised weapon choices for units.
They should just appeal to DOW1. Forget DOW2.
As a player who prefers DoW II, and likes the aspects of it brought into DoW III, I strongly disagree with this.
Who should Relic listen to?
It's a bit of a rhetorical question, but I'd like to hear your answer. Relic obviously wants to listen to all their fans, and not just those who like a particular game. Opinion post.
The game with more players. The libertarian in me acknowledges that good games are successful and bad games are unsuccessful. DOW1 STILL has more players than DOW2. It's not a hard thing to follow. You are supposed to build upon success and sacrifice weakness.
I could make a 5 post review of all 3 games and at the end of it I'd still prefer DOW1 the most, DOW2 dead last. You really want to see that? I can barely be bothered to write it because the evidence is there for all to see.
But the games by themselves aren't what are being judged. The games and the communities around them are what sustain them (mods, in particular). You can't just cite a single number and infer from that; there's a huge amount of guesswork you're doing there.
Additionally, given your admitted distaste for developers bringing politics into games, I'm not sure bringing (arguable) ideological talking points (r.e. libertarianism) into this is the best discussion path to take.
You prefer vDoW. That's absolutely fine. But you don't get to dictate what others do, sorry.
@Gorb said:
But the games by themselves aren't what are being judged. The games and the communities around them are what sustain them (mods, in particular). You can't just cite a single number and infer from that; there's a huge amount of guesswork you're doing there.
Additionally, given your admitted distaste for developers bringing politics into games, I'm not sure bringing (arguable) ideological talking points (r.e. libertarianism) into this is the best discussion path to take.
Kek. Come now.
libertarianism
an extreme laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal state intervention in the lives of citizens.
That's not exactly supremely political is it, it means: leave me alone and look at what I do in your absence, Dad.
The word "extreme" might throw you off but it needs to be "extreme laissez-faire political philosophy" as a whole concept without straw manning it by breaking it down in to its individual parts. Anything can have a meaning distorted by isolating single terms.
The games are being judged, by the populations that are abandoning them or staying with them. That's why I said it was a libertarian affair to just sit back and watch what the populace did with dow1/2/3 and see which was more popular.
You prefer vDoW. That's absolutely fine. But you don't get to dictate what others do, sorry.
Who said I was dictating? Take the blinders off man you're getting way too obsessed with reading in to peoples individual words and ignoring the context.
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CANNED_F3TUS
The more i play this game,the less the art style bothers me. Its actually better and more detailed than the previous 2 DoWs
MetalSlime
I feel like the way to get it back online would have been to combine the patch with a race DLC announcement. You get everyone re-interested in the balance, bring tired players back to the game, then give them a piece of content to share with their friends to draw those folks back in as well. Coordinating the fixing of gameplay issues with new content that people are excited about (Necrons, Tau, anything but predictable Chaos), would have been a good way to create a publicity wave. Articles could have started with "DLC was announced and it is this cool race, also check out the game because they fixed a lot of issues". But no, the patch went live and nothing else was announced. They energized the core player base, but did nothing to engage and draw in the more peripheral users.
Now, any DLC added is going to have a watered down effect. I get that they wanted to see if the patch was well-received, but at this point they don't have much to lose.
That being said, maybe the new content isn't quite ready to announce yet, but I feel like they must at least know the first 1-2 DLC announcements and could easily have made a blog post with a few images, maybe a gif, or even concept art.
KingComa
Enjoying every minute of the game since launch
discuss.....
Tokreal
Actually you don't need that much from Relic themselves to get a community going. Tbh it's more dependent on the players and a few individuals to build a solid community than anything else.
DoW1 started the same, you had not many players being active in the community after the first month (well the general mood was better compared to now...). However what you got were a few quite invested individuals who really pushed the game not only in terms of tournaments, but also in terms of community events etc.
There were people like EugenusMaximus etc. who build up the community, then we got ESL involved etc. In those days Relic did nothing in terms of community service. We waited ages for every patch because the game still ran on GameSpy and apparantly it was a hassle to patch games on GameSpy. We organized ++heresy redacted++ like one day tournaments every weekend. At the beginning with 16 players. After one year or so we needed 256 brackets for some tournaments. The tournaments in the beginning were quite empty but we just pushed on, we got more content gamewise and after a while we also had the players. We also pushed THQ and Relic in terms of interviews (back then with Buggo). There were no prices in the tournaments until Dark Crusade, after that it got much better. We got sponsoring from THQ, we could get decent prizes for tournaments etc. We even got tournaments with offline finals like ConflictX. This development was not because THQ and Relic suddenly decided, hey just throw money at these guys. This happened because they showed over the years, what influence they held in the dow fan community and that they got ++heresy redacted++ done.
What I want to say with this short story: There is actually something you can do: You can organize community stuff. You can try to organize interviews, you can try to get tournaments with e.g. ESL. You won't have the players in the beginning, but you have to show that you are trustworthy, a decent admin and especially that you are consistent and get stuff on the way on a regular basis. And in general people underestimate the influence of a few people who push the game in the community on the development of the game.
Strangequark
Want to see how to revive the whole genre? Watch what happens if blizzard announce WarCraft 4 tomorrow. Genre's not dead.
Draconix
Hmmm........That would be nice, but it seems that even Blizzard can't be trusted at all now. It might end that, that Warcraft 4 will became heavilly esport focused title that is hard and frustrating to play for casuals, like Starcraft 2 is now. Also who knows, they might be add Moba like focus on heroes in that not yet annouced title.
Even Blizzard is not same as it was once anymore.
Strangequark
Well its a lot of what if's, even what I would consider a reaction. But pretty sure if Blizzard even just announced war craft 4 that the hype would explode. They could still totally screw it up and launch it like crap but that isn't my point. My point is the genre isn't dead, and the explosion of hype we all feel pretty confident would happen with an announcement like war craft 4 would reinforce that.
nerva2940
meta is in a really good place now. i would say balance is close to perfect, with a few more units and bugs needing attention. While I havent been having problems finding games, I'd love DoW3 to have more players and be more popular. I'm hoping we'll see the population steadily rise over the years as more DLC and expansion packs are released.
the biggest priority of Relic right now is to fix the replay system so we can get more casters going.
Tokreal
I could argue the exact opposite with exactly the same argument. The explosion of hype we all feel pretty confident would happen with an announcement like war craft 4 and only war craft 4 shows that the genre is quite dead and only nostalgia keeps it barely alive...
Why else would only exactly one game have a decent shot at being successfull in this genre...
Draconix
Yes, perhaps this genre isn't dead, thanks also to some indie developers. But truth is that RTS isn't now popular as it was, due to bloom of MOBA and FPS poularities. Even Blizzard in June 2015 had released own MOBA called Heroes of the Storm, which I play it to today, well it is the only Blizzard game I play currently - I own also Diablo 3, Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2, all with expansions and even Starcraft1 with BroodWar, but I don't playing them since long time. Blizzard has also own Hero shooter called Overwatch which is probably was beginning of popularity of Hero Shooters or shooters with moba-like heroes.
Anyways, RTS genre isn't dead, true, but it isn't either popular anymore. It is just niche genre now as most are saying about it.
Stoner
Disagree. SCII is MUCH more casual friendly than SCI/BW, difference is quite enormous. Plus Bliz have pretty nice matchmaking system which doesn't pitch you against top players from the get go, so you have more even ground to train and improve. DOW was never that forgiving in that regard.
Considering WarCraft, 3 was slower and overall easier than SCI, and with 4th I'm sure they would continue tradition so it technically should be more casual friendly even than SCII. Blizzard aren't known for big sways in terms of innovations, so I'm sure WC4 would be launched with same 4 races, Hero units, exp, creeps, shops and etc but new, prettier engine and small tweaks to gameplay mechanics. Only idea why Bliz doesn't announce WC4 is because their hands are full with one e-Sport RTS already, two will be to hard and too expensive to maintain, plus WOW, plus HoTS, plus Overwatch... well, you get the picture.
Draconix
Perhaps you might be right. But I was visiting SC2's american forums many times and there was complain threads about "the game is dead", "this unit is OP" or even "Blizz doesn't care". What I read there that SC2 was pushed into e-sport too much, that even Korean players had struggled in mastering this game, and yet Blizzard said that this game is supposed to be hard even for pro players. Perhaps SC2 is more casual friendly than SC/BW, I don't know. But I read in its forum that many casuals quitted because of imbalanced multi and only hardcore players stayed with it. Also it seems that more focus on this game lies in Coop now. Not to mention that Protoss in SC2 is weakest race to play now.......
Strangequark
The hard truth of that, is that in the real time market a lot of studio's have dragged their brand through the mud and pushed the people who like those kinds of games to the studios that were doing it proper. Command and conquer, pretty fun series right? I have quite a few in the series red alert 3 being the one I played the most. What happened? Tiberian twilight right? No one wanted to get close to that IP after that game sank the brand. Halo wars? Tried to bring an FPS crowd into a console only RTS using a controller and map scroll. Hindsight probably a pretty bad idea, and it never grew a huge core fanbase despite good reviews, game originated in 2009, was ported to PC Dec 2016. Planetary annihilation, 2014 had a really interesting concept that I enjoyed (mostly cause I like the idea of blowing up planets) but its kinda niche on its own with its very different gameplay (I personally liked) wasn't for everyone though. The reason a blizzard announcement, and really just a blizzard announcement would generate so much hype is because of the reputation that developer has, were talking millions of people. Some who were RTS players before they were sucked into the wallet blackhole that was essentially WoW. Genre's not dead, choice is just extremely limited because a lot of the old good RTS studios ruined their own brands. No one really remembers or appreciates the good things you do as a company or a person, but if you screw up once that will be seared into their head for a long time. Especially if that person on the other end spent money on it.
Stoner
I haven't visited SC2 for quite some time now, and these posts about imbalances exist on every RTS forum. I don't claim that balance is perfect, but from my personal experience, Toss (my main race) isn't weak but more micro intensive than others, so often it was hard to win vs. other races for me. But judging by topplayer vids, I just lack skills to play them well enough. And on account on overall balance, there are lots of e-Sport tournaments on SC2 every now and then with money prizes and Bliz takes e-Sport very seriously, so I don't think it's that bad as some players claim.
Castiel
Play the game, garner a good community, get involved with community events, watch streams and vods, give feedback(good and bad but always constructive).
They have done a really good job with this balance patch and the game has tons of potential from what I have seen and experienced.
Don't look to the problem(quoting numbers and stats) look to the solutions - what can you personally do, that might range from just playing the game to setting up events and more.
If you are passionate about the game show it in whatever form you can.
Retain hope, people will come, content will come.
folklore
Well there is your issue. For years now the main forums for various races and the competitive forum have been like that, toxic and prone to hyperbole. The coop section is usually a lot friendlier. As to starcraft 2 being more casual friendly. It is far more friendly with many quality of life improvements even in the single-player crowd. I say this as someone who prefers casual single-player and co-op mode. Now the single-player and co-op modes, will not prepare someone if they try to dive into ranked or even un-ranked multiplayer.
Side note: I'm very glad that the co-op mode is gaining popularity.
Draconix
Perhaps you're right. If I would play Starcraft 2 again, then rather for campaign and coop especially, its skirmish isn't interesting for me. Too bad, however that new commanders are now paid DLC, but oh well. At least Dow 3 can have interesting skirmish for me thanks to elite unit and doctrine system. But its just my opinion on skirmish though.
As a ending, if there ever would be a new faction, then I will gladly pay for it, regardless if it is DLC or expansion.
Stoner
Btw, how do you guys find "improved" AI? Not big fan of compstomp, but it's good to test some stuff out. So, pre-patch beating Hard Eldar as SM was very hard in 1v1, now I'm beating them quite easily, as well as Orks or SM. How about you, folks?
And yeah, there are some improvements, units don't stuck as much, AI learned to use workers for melee as well as putting them inside gens for shield, but overall they still spread out too much and suicide single squads into my army...
CourtJester
Same experience you're having. The AI still isn't showing the intelligence half of that term
Gosu
I think relic is listening to community.. and me.. hahaha.. new patch coming!
Fernandito
Do you know why this game has failed?. Easy. Because it's not dow1 but with updated graphics.
This is another barebones game like dow2; boring; few types of units; almost no upgrades; etc.
The quality of the first dow game and the expansions we saw after are so huge to this day that it simply puts its successors to shame. The units; animations; races; upgrades; tactics; the fun involved in its play..., everything still stands out when compared to what we have now in dow3, and of course it does as well when compared to dow2.
Do you Relic want dow to be successful again?. Just make one like dow1 but with better graphics; beginning with at least four races; a decent amount of different units; lots of upgrades, and for the love of the god make it RTS again, not this.
Is it that difficult to understand really?. DOW1 RELIC! Why can't you just understand it.
Draconix
Someone's dissapointed because its not like Dow1...........please.
I know that Dow3 isn't same or even great as Dow1 or Dow2, but I appreciate it for being different just like these two. So I will play that game too.
And if has to satisfy that you, Dow 3 will get Annihilation mode. But if you likes Dow1 so much, then you should play it rathen than ranting on Dow3.
Also for criticizing Dow2.......... some people like Nassir Amir would like to talk with you.
Quitt
Well, my only problem with the game right now is that the great majority of players that stayed in the game are much better than me - so I now lose game after game which sucks... But I still think the game is great.
CANNED_F3TUS
I smell alot of bias coming out of this post.
DoW 1 was a great game but it took time to get there.
DoW 3 will be just as good or even better than DoW 1 once all the pieces are put together and its received its expansions like DoW 1. It might not have reached DoW 1 level of content yet because its still new.
Also i wouldnt say that unit upgrades and units are lacking. The unit roster is just as good as DoW 1. The roster is just split between line units and elites and relic is known to add new units down the road. Who knows.
Unit upgrades are split between doctrines and ingame unit upgrades so id say they are roughly at the same level as DoW 1 (almost). DoW 1 does have more upgrades no doubt but Relic wanted to design the game in a way that didnt have units that can counter everything. This adds strategy and more decision making in itself.
Relic is trying to get both the DoW 1 and 2 camps back under 1 roof and i think they did a fairly good job at combining the best if both games,
MrBenis
Irony time!
DOW3 may become better than DoW1 once all the pieces are released. We don't know how much is coming full stop. 1 expac might be all we see.
This is all just opinions.
Unit upgrades don't exist for many things like compartmentalised weapon choices for units.
They should just appeal to DOW1. Forget DOW2.
Gorb
As a player who prefers DoW II, and likes the aspects of it brought into DoW III, I strongly disagree with this.
Who should Relic listen to?
It's a bit of a rhetorical question, but I'd like to hear your answer. Relic obviously wants to listen to all their fans, and not just those who like a particular game. Opinion post.
MrBenis
The game with more players. The libertarian in me acknowledges that good games are successful and bad games are unsuccessful. DOW1 STILL has more players than DOW2. It's not a hard thing to follow. You are supposed to build upon success and sacrifice weakness.
I could make a 5 post review of all 3 games and at the end of it I'd still prefer DOW1 the most, DOW2 dead last. You really want to see that? I can barely be bothered to write it because the evidence is there for all to see.
http://steamcharts.com/search/?q=dawn+of+war
Gorb
But the games by themselves aren't what are being judged. The games and the communities around them are what sustain them (mods, in particular). You can't just cite a single number and infer from that; there's a huge amount of guesswork you're doing there.
Additionally, given your admitted distaste for developers bringing politics into games, I'm not sure bringing (arguable) ideological talking points (r.e. libertarianism) into this is the best discussion path to take.
You prefer vDoW. That's absolutely fine. But you don't get to dictate what others do, sorry.
MrBenis
Kek. Come now.
That's not exactly supremely political is it, it means: leave me alone and look at what I do in your absence, Dad.
The word "extreme" might throw you off but it needs to be "extreme laissez-faire political philosophy" as a whole concept without straw manning it by breaking it down in to its individual parts. Anything can have a meaning distorted by isolating single terms.
The games are being judged, by the populations that are abandoning them or staying with them. That's why I said it was a libertarian affair to just sit back and watch what the populace did with dow1/2/3 and see which was more popular.
Who said I was dictating? Take the blinders off man you're getting way too obsessed with reading in to peoples individual words and ignoring the context.