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Patch has failed
Evenio
Let me start right off the bat saying yes, this is most likely a rant post.
This patch has completely failed. It screams SM fan-service, and Relic should have never listened to the majority of the forum posters here. The result of which is that my main race, that I have loved since I started DoW 2 (logged over 2.5k hours, ranked multiplayer, not last stand BS) got gutted and left to die in an alley. I exclusively play 2vs2 with some 3vs3 on the side, 1vs1's don't interest me one bit. And this patch has just ruined those gamemodes, the gamemodes I love and care for.
They say they made this patch to ''improve gameplay'' and ''force different army compositions'', this is all bollocks and a blatant lie that is evident when you play this game even semi-serious. It has resulted in spam fests of unparalleled proportions, for ALL races. You would see more diverse army choices pre-patch then post. And the main reason for this is that HORRIBLE requisition change, and the utter and blatant overbuffing and nerfing of units. And in the case of Eldar, actually REMOVED their core gameplay mechanic which is hit and run. Post-patch they changed from hit and run to turtle and defend. I mean, are you kidding me? I understood completely the need for specific Eldar units:
- Scorpions were indeed overperforming with true damage crits, they could've just removed the true damage and keep them as is. Instead they slaughtered the elite, by nerfing Hunt with 75%(!) and reducing their Shield and Health in addition as well! They are an absolute worthless pick now in the higher level 2vs2 and 3vs3 games, they are dead before they even get any damage going.
- Macha, the early game elite you chose when going up against orks. Mediocre and dare I say even, useless combined with the new economy system, there's no way to even stop an massive ork spam blob going early game now. People were crying and yelling about her ''instant squad delete combo'', newsflash, split your squads, try to bait out her spear and make her miss it. Instead you guys cried, kicked and yelled, and Relic listened, Macha, her sole purpose now beign a stasis bot.
- Overall Eldar T1: kicked, stabbed and spat on. Yes, DA's were overperforming in conjuction with Webway Gates, and yes, I feel those DA nerfs are warranted. What's not warranted is removing Webway Gate teleport T1 since it's such an essential part of Eldar overall. Eldar units DO NOT EXIST OUTSIDE IT'S RADIUS. They have the slowest movement speed of all units without battle focus, and they drop like flies without the shield gen. Yes, nerf overperforming units with battle focus, but do not take away our sole mechanic of actually having manoeuvrability! Make the Webway Gate even easier to kill, but let us keep the T1 teleport, without battle focus going on, we seriously are gimped.
- Don't even bother making Banshee's until T2 since they are complete jackshit T1 outside their battle focus range.
- Shadow Spectres die when you sneeze on them and are overpriced.
- 2vs2's mainly have changed into a meatgrinder spamfest thanks to requisition changes. Every game has been the same: Tac Spam, Reaper Spam, Boyz Spam, which escalates into: More Tacs/ASM/Preds, nothing changed here, still WG's, Falcon is no option, it actually dies pretty fast to tac spam, rokkit/killa kans spam. Yay diversity?!
Winning doesn't feel enjoyable anymore, the micro has been taken out of 2vs2, it all revolves around spam attack move. And this patch is just one big fan-service to the space marine yellers on this forum. Tacs with early flamer was already quite disgusting vs Eldar pre-patch, now it's just kicking and punching while we're laying down already, hopelessly trying to defend ourselves.
I don't know how much longer I can keep on playing the game in this state, it's beyond horrible. The fact that online players has been the same since the patch has hit, just proves my case even further. The only people happy about this patch seems to be the SM/Orks and the Orks mainly because they have been untouched.
I did not even mind the ASM powersword cheese spam, I could deal with it, and I hardly lost against it. Ork trukks the same.. But there is nothing Eldar T1 can do atm against tac spam backed up by Ironmaw.
P.S: Wraithblades are still super ++heresy redacted++ late-game, but that's the only option we have.
Comments
Castiel
I'm Eldar and happy about the patch. Build more than 1 WWG. It's not like they have been removed, you just have to build more than 1 that you can tp everywhere in t1 now.
Spamming something and cheese strats is normal after a patch, ways will be found to counter it and the meta settles.
Seems like the title should read "I'm having a hard time adjusting after the patch"
guymandude
1) Relic is not going to have a race based on interesting or exotic gameplay mechanics, i.e. an Eldar based on teleporting buildings, webway gates, fleet-of-foot, etc. Instead, they will MAKE YOU THINK there is a race based on interesting/exotic gameplay mechanics, while at the same time making it so that supposed "exotic" gameplay mechanics have actual minimal gameplay effect. In other words, it's just a tease, a trick.
Interesting/exotic gameplay mechanics requires creativity, bravery, actual care about what you are doing, and finally, it requires putting time, thought, and energy into balance. If you think Relic is going to do any of that, you have, in the words of Judas Priest, "another thing coming." Eldar will be a bland race with aspects or teases of being exotic.
2) Relic balanced according to forum whine in CoH2. Get used to it here, too.
3) Relic's modus operandi is to balance most units except bread-and-butter units out of the game, as this makes balance easier (if you only have a couple of actual units per race that will be viable, you only have a couple of units per race to balance).
4) OP stuff creates far more crying than UP stuff. Therefore, developers have learned to nerf the crap out of anything that anyone cries and screams about, so that they don't have to deal with that unit anymore. But the fact that the unit is now underpowered doesn't generate the same level of people screaming as when it was OP - in other words, people tend to just shrug, say "oh well," and accept underpowered units (they just move on to another unit, and quit using the underpowered one). Expect this phenomenon to happen with this game, i.e. "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down" by the devs, and that's one less issue to deal with for them. Over time this helps to insure that there are a minimal number of units that have to actually be actively balanced for each faction. The rest are effectively nerfed out of the game so the devs don't have to deal with them.
Evenio
So you're fine having to spend 300 req and 60 power to get two easily destroyed, high risk buildings? That might work at medium/low MMR games, and even then it still puts you at a major economy disadvantage.
And you're missing the point, spamming is happening because there is excess requisition due to the economy changes. There is way less risk to losing models and squads as well. People aren't spamming because there is no ''meta'' (there actually already is one, sort of, and it's the spam as much infantry as you can meta) but because they have been enabled to by Relic and this patch.
Evenio
I have never played CoH2, if it is true what you're saying, I might as well give up on being competitive all around, same goes for my 2v2 mate.
jambai
Lost quite a few 2v2 due to raging eldar teammates. You guys need to chill out a bit huehuehue
Seriously though, eldar was overnerfed I think & hope they will be rectify. That doesn't mean we should exaggerate in how weak they are. Still needs to evaluate in their overall performance.
iPhoneAppz
Wah wah wah. My faction is nerfed to the ground and other factions are OP. Welcome to the world of RTSs. Quit your QQ and come up with winning compositions and strats.
Castiel
If you just stick one right at the front line and then leave it there to get destroyed its no different than any forward building for another race. What you are upset about is that you can't just place your nigh on un-killable, regenerating, teleporting WWG, where ever you like and not worry about it.
You have to actually think about where to place this very important building for the race mechanics now, and also build more than 1(it's really not like the area it covers is small). Orcs have to build Waagh towers for instance. I don't think its pricey for what you get, you were always getting one so the extra cost is only 150/30. Think of it as an army unit, as it is an integral part of your army.
Feels a lot like you have just got too used it being an easy mode WWG and are reluctant to adjust to how it is now, I don't think it was ever intended you would just need one all game.
If people are spamming tons of infantry they are reducing their own economy quite heavily. As I said that is the current meta, people will learn how to combat that and gain edges elsewhere and the meta will evolve(the people actually trying to do that and not just being upset about how it is).
Oh and I play Eldar btw.
Evenio
Such a constructive post, you must be an SM player. I never said the other factions are OP, I even welcomed the pre-patch ASMs. I wonder how the patch would've looked if all Eldars started posting stuff like this on all the threads where people were crying their eyes out. Lol.
GMJohnny
There was never micro in this game. It is not worth to make army compositions diverse. I have been saying this since day 1.
Guziol
Eldar units have same movement speed to equivalent units of other races across the board without FoF. And i agree with most eldar changes, i play eldar quite often myself. I only dislike the lack of changes to vechicle scaling for eldar. Their lategame is probably the worst out of the 3 factions. Falcons and fireprism get absolutely no scaling with their shield upgrades and fire prism is still not very good in my opinion. Wraith units are the only way to go. Also shadow spectres are shite. Too squishy and too low range. I also never had to deal with "dreaded ranger spam" and the cost increase to the unlock and unit felt a bit out of place.
Increased req income was a bad idea though. I highly dislike it.
Evenio
Easy mode WWG? I don't know if i'm reading this wrong but you are sort of contradicting yourself there. You are comparing the WWG to an army unit, key difference being though, units can actually move. Since when was the WWG un-killable? I am talking about 2vs2's, not 1vs1's, and they sure as hell weren't in any way unkillable, if you messed up your teleport, or did a slight miscalculation, it would end up dead. It is actually just easier now to kill it since it is stationary and had his HP reduced.
You're talking about building 2x WWG, let's say i'll do that. Hurray, I can now turtle in two positions, fact is I CANNOT push until T2. So even if I were to face total scrub players who can't scout out WWG's (you know, scouting happens in my matches) I am forced to turtle down until I teched up.
This is especially evident on a map such a Mork's Mire. Pre-patch you had different tactical ways on how and where to engage the enemy, now you're turtled down into set positions.
Orcs still have mobility outside their Waagh towers, they aren't useless without Waagh, whereas Eldar without battle focus is nigh on crap.
Never was I able to place my gates where I would have liked and not worry about it. Sometimes I got cocky and teleported it front-line while pushing pre-patch. Enemy's were using their brain, nuked down my gate and then proceeded to kill off my almost near standing still army.
WWG is either a must have core, or they should at least improve the movement speed of Eldar units.
Again, i'm talking in 2vs2, you can spam without end with this new requisition change. No one is reducing their economy, yesterday I managed to wipe 3-4 squads in T1, it got near instantly replaced by the enemy, and on top of that, I couldn't even push further cause I could not teleport my WWG's (had actually 2 that game).
There is no risk anymore, no micro, it's spam and attack move. If you enjoy it, thats great for you. But for people like me, who enjoyed fast paced micro skirmishes, the enjoyment is gone.
P.S: Every decent Eldar player never had one WWG, even pre-patch. Mid-game I always try to get at least 3, at the very minimum.
Castiel
I can't really comment on 2vs2 as I mainly play 1vs1 and 3vs3. I said un-killable because the WWG regeneration would always be active - they stop hitting it for a second and its back to full health. I would say it takes more micro AND army management now. You have to set up your composition correctly and also micro it well. You can fight outside of FoF especially if you just won that fight, you just need one close by to fall back into if needed.
Think of your first one more as a forward operations base. Orcs do rely heavily on Waaagh and you fighting them with no FoF if they have no Waaagh is kinda an even fight tbh.
Again I think we have just got too used to always having fleet of foot and need to adjust, its too early to tell the exact balance at the moment as people adjust and get used to things(post big patches/updates its always cheese and spam at first).
Maybe further adjustments will be required and it sucks that 2vs2 seems to be hit worst but I don't think its as bad as you make out. If it really is that bad for you at the moment then try some other game modes, you have options.
Be that person who comes up with new things to counter the spam and fights back against perceived inbalance - if nothing else it will make your games much more satisfying for you.
Evenio
I agree on the WWG regeneration, that had to go. It was to powerful combined with the teleport. And yeah, maybe I need to overhaul my playstyle and embrace the T1 turtling gameplay.. but that doesn't feel like Eldar at all.
That's why my suggestion to increase the movement speed of the units. As it stands now, without FoF, there is no way I can dodge a tac flamer, unless that guy is tripping on shrooms.
I love Eldar, I played them exclusively in DoW 2 (Warlock gravity throw weeeee) and pre-patch they just felt right in this game, albeit some units were overperforming, and I also agree with some of the SM buffs.
I think it would be a good compromise to give us the T1 teleport with a 90 sec cd, and the improved webway doctrine could increase it's base HP maybe to toughen it up? No regeneration, just survivability. Appreciate your attempt to encourage me to hang in there, think I'll give it some more chances, see if I can't figure something out.
Alchemist13
Well I disagree with most of your post your post, I will say this banshees really need a buff they are like paper before the patch and now they are worse then paper, they just get ripped to shreds against anything.
I think the main problem still with this game is all your units die to fast for any race and that will always and continue to create spam gameplay, which is why they should bring back squad leaders and leveling up of your squads In game this would make units more tanky.
Also I do think dark reapers need a little bit of a damage buff and reduce there set up time a little bit. (Btw I mostly play SM at the moment)
Castiel
I would be nice to have it slightly more survivable, but its pretty tough vs t1 units and if he is hitting on your WWG then you are getting free shots off on his army. It should be very hard to kill if you have an army defending it.
I think maybe in 2vs2 the problem would come from being overwhelmed 2vs1 or such? It would of course go down fast then without much counter play, I guess then your option is to adjust for the game mode as well as the patch!
As a problem lies in 1vs1 balance regarding it's toughness, if you lose an early fight hard with a forward WWG then the enemy should be able to punish it, much the same as a really far forward Waaagh tower or production building. The problem then comes then from losing the fight, not the WWG in itself.
And I'm sure you will figure something out, a lot of people across all the game modes are struggling to adjust to what is a huge change in how you play Eldar at the moment. But as soon as we let go of what it used to be and embrace some new special tactics I'm sure we will find a way to kill all those dirty orcs and humans!
Castiel
Also, if it is actually unbalanced now and you come up with ways to still win, then you have a headstart if any changes are made
Castiel
@Alchemist13 DR are great if you spread them out around the edges of an engagement, they have such a long range they can all cover a very large area.
Their damage does seem low compared to other setup teams, but they are also true damage, which means they offer light AV as well which can burn down trucks and skimmers pretty nicely!
As for Banshees I find them best used as shock troops and backline defenders. You have to play hit and run with them, charge in and get something tied up in melee and then get the hell out before the shields go down, you don't ever want to leave them in an extended fight. Or sit them hidden or way back to jump on anything that dives your backline.
The scream doctrine really helps out with this as the silence and blind is huge - it also means you can charge in and tie up something in melee without getting tied up yourself for a while. Making it easy to get in and out! Hopefully allowing your ranged units to get in even more hurt on the now slowed and silenced unit.
guymandude
The correct way to go is the other direction from which Relic is (predictably) going. Don't nerf "Eldar-ish" gameplay mechanics... BUFF them. Make webway gates, fleet-of-foot, etc. MORE an aspect of Eldar gameplay, not less. Make webway gates even cheaper, more spammable, MORE able to teleport around the battlefield, not less. Create a unique race with unique mechanics, not a standard ++heresy redacted++ race with a veneer of something interesting and different.
People will say "you can't do that because it makes it unbalanced." Nonsense. Having racial mechanics, and having balance, are two separate things. Create cool races with interesting, unique mechanics. Then balance the game. But balance should never achieved by being lazy and watering down the unique gameplay mechanics.
Strangequark
Relic isn't going to ever balance this game around 2v2 or 3v3 gameplay. That's not a good place to try and balance the game anyway, 1v1 mono eh mono is where balancing needs to be focused and has been, so far. That's where race A's mechanics and damage vs race B needs to feel the most fair where the winner is the better player and not the race that is broken. Which brings me to this second point that guymandude brought up. I'm sorry man but the idea to push a races abilities like that through the roof is going to give you 2 things. You will either have a race that just stomps the crap out of everyone. Faceroll from back in the day where you could just roll your face across the keyboard and win the game, or such harsh counters to that races game play that it wouldn't feel fun even with the added elements. Bringing in wildly different elements for every single faction becomes a balancing nightmare, especially in a game like DoW3 where most units have soft counters and not out right direct hard counter units. The further you push race elements over unit standardization (and that's not saying pushing it a little is bad) the more you are going to run into direct hard counters. Take a look at SC2 as an example, each race does have very unique units and mechanics, but every single one has their own hard counter with the other 2. Spamming marines against protoss? Oh here comes a few colossi. Answer that with vikings, except now he pumped out a lot of stalkers. You get the idea, those are the two far ends of the spectrum and as a developer you have to strike a balance somewhere between them.
guymandude
I never said they would, and I never said they should. I've always thought that balance starts with 1v1 and proceeds from there.
I said that you would say that. We will just have to agree to disagree.
wongtp
predator destructor spam ez mode. 1 shot takes out almost 3/4 of wg shields.
Strangequark
I didn't say it wouldn't be balanced. I said the only way you could balance it is with extremely hard counters in the other races to deal with the mechanics that they as a faction don't have. You can't give one race the ability to teleport all over the map, and not give it to the other 2 and expect that to be easy to handle as a balancing team, without creating direct, shut this down right now counters to it. I showed you star craft and how very different races with units is possible, but that it leads to those distinct traits having hard counters with the other factions. If you don't do it that way it becomes a faceroll.
guymandude
Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree here.
Starcraft 2 is one of the worst examples of balancing you could cite.
Gorb
Sorry if I've misinterpreted you at all, but you seem to be under the impression that buffing a faction to the point of absurdity has no impact on game balance? Having an Eldar ability to split the planet in two would be cool, awe-inspiring, and rooted in lore adherence (they're certainly capable of such) . . . but given that it would instantly end games would not be good for player enjoyment or retention at all.
The strength of a particular unit or mechanic naturally has to have an upper limit, otherwise you end up with an infinite numbers game whereby to compete you have to buff all corresponding underperforming units, with no end. At some point, a nerf has to be applied. No?
Opinion post.
Strangequark
The sales and robust esports scene for SC2, and even still SC. With brood war being re-released in HD, from a company that has quite a few RTS titles under their belt who has been doing it from the infancy of the internet feels like it backs my point up more than yours.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Castiel I thoroughly commend you for your attitude towards the game.
The Eldar are very close to balanced but their style is very uncharacteristic of the race.
The only way I reliably win in 1v1 atm is turtling up and playing around the enemy attacking into my webway radius. This is not a fun way to play though. Additionally now that SM can pick a fight wherever they like with myriad drop pods and standard (3 massive aoe stuns if timed with killteam drop) I find my opponents have to make mistakes which I jump on rather than outright out playing them.
The SM play style is use your overwhelming advantages in the first engagement to stake out a claim on map control. Defend, wait for abilities to recharge - then push out with immense force again (Which does suit them). I am beginning to think the only counter play really comes from capitalising on a ++heresy redacted++ up rather than actuallt seizing the initiative....Eldar have no bite at the moment.
The only aspect of hit and run that permeates through the design is with warp spiders and outside of elite choices- vypers superior move speed.
T1 it is simply a game of turtle up, be patient and hope they ++heresy redacted++ up. Prod and harrass if you can but you're better off not engaging until T2 where you have a marginally better chance of trading beneficially.
Evenio
This is exactly what I mean and the problem I run into, among others. It's a really frustrating and annoying way to play the game, and it gets on my nerves. Because you feel/are powerless for the duration of T1.
Gorb
Eldar absolutely favour misdirection and getting the enemy to attack when and where it's advantageous to them. They're not solely about "hit and run", it's just that in the lore their limited numbers and lack of ability to withstand a protracted (meat grinder of a) fight means that this sums up a lot of their tactics.
Getting the enemy to play into your Webway network is as Eldar-like as anything I can imagine. It also rewards enemies that are aggressive in their scouting and destruction of said Gates.
Strangequark
@guymandude and I'm not trying to be confrontational here, but SC2 is the closest thing that you are talking about wanting in this game, 3 races with very distinct play styles for their race. That includes units and tactics. Blizzard has been doing this rodeo for decades, either in warcraft, starcraft, WoW, Overwatch. They out of all the companies out there probably understand balance better than anyone as proof that WoW is even still relevant today and got a big content patch within the last year, game still has over 5million accounts subscribed. So for you to think that SC2 is the worst example I could give, that should tell you something about the idea's you'd like to see for YOUR race.
Wielder
I like how players appear out of nowhere, saying I DON'T PLAY 2x2 or I DON'T PLAY MUCH AT ALL... but they think your opinion is not valid because you cannot counter new meta. Opinions are good thing, but when there is an opinion of a player who played a great deal of games against top ladder opponents, probably it has more basis behind it, than that of some dude, who doesn't even play 2x2. Myself, I think the game is far from balanced, but I literally don't care about balance if the game process is entertaining. What those 'find a strategy' advisors are saying, is completely missing the point - the point that gameplay itself became poorer, dumber, simple fighting with ranged units for 20 minutes over 1 point at the map, the reasons for it are explained in my wall of text in another topic (for those who don't beleive it outright).
I played like 300 2x2 games before the patch and like 15 after, I know what I'm talking about. I played a couple of 3x3 games after patch, and to my sincerest surprise, it felt fine. So probably that requisition change did not affect 3x3 as much, I will not judge because I don't play it that much. But friends, why are you judging 2x2 if you don't even play it? Why are you mocking people (who have high winrate, both prior and after the patch), occusing them of whining about balance, when they are complaining about gameplay?