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Buff imp. webway gate
3 years ago
Darkstirling
So imp. webway gate needed a nerf, but I hope relic isn't planning on leaving it in the completely unusable state that it is in now. There is currently zero reason to take it.
Here are some potential ideas (obviously one of these, not all of them)
]-Return the relocate ability to tier 1, but give it a 2 minute cooldown to use, and have it take 20 seconds to relocate
]-Make this doctrine allow the eldar to create webway portals between buildings in tier 1, and to webway gates in tier 2 (nornally tier 2 and 3 respectively)
]-Improved webway gate now makes webways half price (allowing them to be used more aggressively early without trashing your economy)
Thoughts?
1
Comments
Strangequark
No.
Fww
They need to give it back to tier1 or buff other units.
DA aren't that special anymore
DR are same as SM's heavy weapons team but with worse doctrines
Banshees are useless
Strangequark
Webway Gates health decreased from 700 to 600
Fixed an issue where destroying a connected Webway while it relocates could prevent any further Webways from being connected
Improved Webways: No longer allows Webway Gates to relocate in Tier 1
Improved Webways: Health regeneration can now only occur after 10 seconds of being out of combat
Improved Webways: Relocation cast time increased from 4 seconds to 10 seconds
None of these things, even together is that big of a nerf. They needed the health decrease, especially now with a lot of true damage being shifted to tier 2 for other races. You actually got a bug fix which could effectively cripple eldar if they couldn't make any more connections with the bug. Relocating in tier 1(No other race can come close to this kind of map presence) was broken, and like I said before with true damage being moved higher in tiers there is no counter to take them down quickly and reliably. Webways still heal, just longer on the timer before it ticks (wish I had buildings that healed themselves) and they take a few seconds longer to relocate. I don't see any issues with the changes they made to webways, they've just raised the skill ceiling and floor to the doctrine. I'm trying to be fair here, but that doctrine before, the skill floor was so low it was underground.
Strangequark
I'm all for balance, and conversations on such, but you have to be able to remove yourself, and all skill out of the equation and look at the entire picture objectively without your opinion being colored by the affection you have for the race you play.
Katitof
And that's where you're wrong.
HP nerf makes it easier to destroy, building them is already putting a strain on economy, especially in early game,
not all gates can be placed in hidden spots as not all of them are optimal for them and I haven't even started on ork suicide stormboys obiliterating webways with no effort at all.
Relocation to 10 not only diminishes value of the doctrine, it directly decreases survivability of the gate itself too.
Not being able to relocate in T1 alone makes the doctrine completely irrelevant as in T1 its impossible to get more then one without shooting yourself in foot economically and after BP1, the relocate cooldown is completely irrelevant as you're not going to relocate it that often for the sole reason of you being able to finally afford 2nd or 3rd gate once your first vehicle is out.
Health regen, while the change is pretty ok as it allows to counter it better, also diminishes the doctrine value too as staying power of the gate itself is lowered by a lot when its being harassed, even by non AV units.
And if you believe no other faction comes close to the map presence offered by relocated T1 webways, you probably don't know yet how WAAGH towers work or how perma sprint for tacticals is, now that tacticals obliterate all other starting squads.
The doctrine was overpowered, but it was completely gutted out of the meta and the game, classic relic style, knowing relic, it might be picked up next time as a valid choice in 3-4 years.
guymandude
My thoughts are, your first suggestion is itself nerfing the webway gate. It doesn't need 2 minute cooldown, 20 seconds to relocate, blah blah. It needs to be a core mechanic of Eldar, no nerfs to make it unusable.
I like half priced webways.
KanKrusha
I haven't unlocked the wraithlike doctrine so the change in tier one hasn't effected me. From my perspective the doctrine was like a tax refund, saving players from paying extra tax in terms of power by building multiple gates. I think that is a good use for a doctrine but it should be the only thing the doctrine does.
Alternative suggestion WWG
aura removes tear down time but not set up time from dark reapers
Ekko_Tek
So many bad eldar players out there that don't know what to do now that it isn't ez mode anymore.
Strangequark
It still has its armor, so the 100 health is a token if anything because without true damage its tanky as all hell, especially against T1 units. Waagh towers are rooted in place and can not move around the map, Tac squads are in a place where they are supposed to be now, a single squad of tac's can not exude map presence like a WWG can. A single tac squad has to walk around the map, it doesn't cover a large aoe that boosts other portions of the army, and a tac squad COSTS MORE than a webway gate and are much easier to kill without true damage. Other T1 units could probably be looked at for quality of life tweaks, but you are living in a fantasy world if you think relic is going to give the WWG teleport in T1 again.
Strangequark
Once eldar players start learning how to micro with a few squads of DA, pulling focused squads back to regen shields as they push forward with fresh squads its going to be interesting. As of right now, you just have to be a lot more mindful of what you spend your money on, and where you place your buildings. Like the other 2 factions had to be in that area of the game already.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Strangequark I think you're missing the point.
The improved webway gate doctrine is more or less worthless (as are a number of doctrines).
With regards to map presence- the relocate shift has literally shifted the entire dynamic of the Eldar early and mid game from a maneuverable hit and run style of play (Which had alittle too much stand and fight potential) to a sit and turtle up style of play. The stand and fight component was nerfed in several areas (Striking Scorpions being the main issue and making a DA spam viable)...now Eldar can't stand and fight or really hit and run.
I think to form a credible argument you need to identify how this isn't the case or provide alternatives or arguments for why the status quo is ok.
Comparing the maneuverability of Eldar T1 and to an extent t2 to other races they come up short in many respects.
Strangequark
How? I'm saying this right now, if you get the WWG teleport back in T1 its going to be nerfed to such a degree you still won't like it. Like 50% radius, 50% health so that the other races have a way to deal with it, and the god mobility it brings right out of the gate. Throw on top of that the shields eldar have that keeps them from experiencing dps bleed, which means a good eldar player will trade easily with a newly buffed tac squad even with their shorter range. The top eldar players right now think the race is in a good spot, with minor tweaks and QOL buffs to a few of the T1 units.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Strangequark
Sorry man maybe I'm being unclear. Without the doctrine offering T1 relocate it is literally worthless and has become another doctrine that will no doubt be ignored by 99% of all Eldar players.
Your issues with bleed were probably also in a large way due to DA range and tankiness from the shield doctrine...bit of which have also been nerfed.
Do you not think Eldar t1 have a problem? Top tier Eldar players certainly seem to. If not, why not and if so- what do you suggest?
MaxwellsDaemon
@Strangequark sorry you do make your suggestion - yeah the deceased health could work. ... but they honestly aren't that hard to kill with a ten second relocate.
Sure you can't walk upto it and blow it up WHILE also taking fire from the Eldar units... but that makes sense.
I haven't seen any examples at the moment of Eldar getting free/ easy bleed with the changes to DA unless the opponent is derping around.
Darkstirling
Another potential idea I just had for improved webway gates
**Webway gates may now use their relocate ability to be placed into stealth cover anywhere on the map. **
This would allow Eldar some cool sneaky strats, but wouldn't be available until tier 2
No No, I mean that it would have the 2 minute cooldown and 20 second relocate in tier one, in tier 2 it would function normally.
As others have said, you are missing the point. Whether you agree with my particular suggestions or not, this doctrine is pretty much worthless now, and IMO, relic should strive to have each doctrine viable, even if they have to radically change them for balance.
Killhippies
They can already do this bud, just needs LoS. ;-)
Pop a bonesinger(or any unit) into the stealth patch you want to relocate to and you can do it.
Darkstirling
For the love of god, what is the point of this comment? I am not talking about the eldar race as a whole, I am talking about this one specific doctrine. Every race has many useless doctrines, and, in my opinion, every doctrine should be a strong and viable choice. Imp. webway gate is clearly no longer worth taking, so I am trying to brainstorm ways to make it worthwhile again, without making it overpowered.
So eldar may be "fine", but this doctrine is not fine
I know, but this would obviously eliminate the needs to sneak a bonesinger in which could easily die. Alternatively, the doctrine could make it so that you can deploy a webway gate anywhere, even if you have no line of sight.
Darkstirling
How about you either critique my suggestions, or offer some of your own proposals then. That would be preferable to your assumptions that I am trying to make something overpowered. I do not believe a single one of my suggestions would be OP, or else I wouldnt have suggested them, if you read my original post again, you will see that I said it should be a single one of those changes, not all of them, and they would completely nullify the current buffs that improved webway gives. In effect, some of them would be a "remake" of the ability.
The doctrine is bad, I am sure you can agree with that. Every doctrine in the game should have a use, so the question is, how do we make improved webways useful and worth taking vs the other options
jonoliveira12
If other races need tuning down then Eldar is not fine, as it is not on the same level as other races.
If 2 elements are balancing close to eachother, and another element is not, it would be more logical to rebalance the element that is out of balance closer to both the others, than balance both the already balanced ones to support the one that is out of tune.
jonoliveira12
The problem being that Eldar are only balanced when on FoF, and are otherwise castrated.