@Katitof said:
Actually, both Cata and Bike are getting rekt hard by equal skill opponent(and given their positions on ladder, there is no such thing as player who greatly outplayes them in terms of skill).
They do fine, because they are better then 95% of the community, not because Eldar are still strong, literally every single unit short of reapers(who aren't that amazing in the first place) and shadow specters were nerfed hard either directly, or indirectly by putting a webway leash on them.
After 10 minutes its ok, but eldar early game is all about harassing generators while avoiding any combat at all costs.
Cataclaw has straight up said on stream that he thinks Eldar are fine and the game is better after the patch, but he needed to adapt. I'd trust his opinion as he is a dedicated top level player.
I have not seen Bikerush "get rekt" while playing Eldar, so I'll take your word for it. Though I highly doubt it.
@Katitof said:
After 10 minutes its ok, but eldar early game is all about harassing generators while avoiding any combat at all costs.
Sooo....hit and run?
Here's the thing. That's how Eldar is supposed to be.
One of the problems pre-patch with the game, was this is actually how the Space Marine had to play to have any chance of winning - the Eldar would quite happily and easily win the head-on fights.
The difference here being, the Eldar have the tools for that sort of thing. The race is designed around the concept of hit and run. The Space Marine don't, which is why they were so weak pre-patch - bar the one early unit they had that could do this, ASM, which is another reason it got spammed.
I don't know what's the whining about Eldar, they can't isntakill everything like before, but fighting vs them is still pretty hard. DAs still do pretty high damage for their cost, their nades still knockdown and hurt units. Army under constant +50% FOF is hard to nail and their shields are still the same way as before, preventing them from bleeding which results in higher DPS than other races. I don't think they are designed for hit and run, they are still very solid in front line combat and even getting on top if you micro units back and forth with low/high shield.
Eldar are completely unplayable against SM on open maps like Pass or Mire. Tireless doctrine and tactical marine buffs let SM take the initiative from the get go and that advantage just piles up with drop pods and kill team.
There is no way in hell Eldar can keep up with map presence, and their tier 1 backbone got broken with double Dire avenger nerfs and triple Scorpion nerfs.
Just for people who do not know as it was not in the patch notes: Aside from removal of true damage and hunt bonus reductions to damage and speed, Scorpion shields and health also got reduced significantly.
@Katitof said:
After 10 minutes its ok, but eldar early game is all about harassing generators while avoiding any combat at all costs.
Sooo....hit and run?
Here's the thing. That's how Eldar is supposed to be.
One of the problems pre-patch with the game, was this is actually how the Space Marine had to play to have any chance of winning - the Eldar would quite happily and easily win the head-on fights.
The difference here being, the Eldar have the tools for that sort of thing. The race is designed around the concept of hit and run. The Space Marine don't, which is why they were so weak pre-patch - bar the one early unit they had that could do this, ASM, which is another reason it got spammed.
Playing eldar is now logistic nightmare. Early game hell. I not really an excelent player and I play mainly 3v3. Never abused level 1 porting gates and had healthy 59% winrate as an eldar before patch came. Now? I think I played out of seven games like one against player who wasnt an SM (of course the other one WAS SM). Every SINGLE ONE of them LOSS and only single SM I was playing against wasnt using full 3 doc Wombo Combo tacs. So from my stand of view Eldar lost nearly all of theirs abusable mechanics while SM got new ones (for measly price of their AMS still working just fine while not being savagely broken). And orks still have their trucks farting living bombs folowed by Nobs (or normal Boyz cus they seems to be enough to mow down Eldar out of FoF). While looking on some of the games of better players I hadnt seen any huge reward for Eldars being so hard and seemingly underpowered. WTF Relic you literaly created a Meepo (Volvo Dodo) while taking away his Poof. How in the name of Khain's burning balls are Eldar players now suppose to win when they lose early game so hard, against now both orks and SM never able to capitalize on won engegment to clear out enemy units outside of FoF. Balancing my ++heresy redacted++.
@Regant Eloquently put.
Yeah if I win an engagement as Eldar in T1 I almost just make myself content with surviving the engagement and hopefully having inflicted more losses than receiving.
With no relocation of webway gates you often can't pursue for squad wipes and then pushing for map control requires the building of a new webway gate which takes time, money and a commitment to spreading yourself more thinly to defending your webway investment.
If you attempt to push without battlefocus the risks far outweigh the rewards as you have no significant means of inflicting damage and it affords the opponent a very real opportunity to punish you.
In T2 the situation changes with falcons or vypers. But this is a long wait.
This issue is less pronounced for SM and Orks as they have more crowd control options and escape utility (trucks leap etc)
@MaxwellsDaemon said: @Quitt I dunno man banshees should go toe to toe with ASM. In fluff on tabletop it's always been pretty close (power swords cutting through power armour etc). In terms of why ASM cost more....well they have a metric tonne of extra utility and that should be reflected in their cost.
Banshees always were more of a anti range unit than a dedicated anti melee unit. They have the damage output but not the healthpool to stick around long enough to effectivly deal or trade with dedicated melee units that have the health advantage and about the same dps as banshees. Banshees are fragile and use their speed and DpS to kill squads that cant fight back in melee.
DoW 2 treated the banshee the same way. Worked wonders at destroying ranged units in a hurry and could hurt melee units very well but it would always be costly for banshees if they got caught up in extended melee brawls.
I can't say I have much experience playing with Eldar, and honestly I just haven't had much time to play DoW3 in general which I regret. But I can still see this was an over nerf of that faction. Relic is concerned with balance and in all honesty the balance wasn't THAT horrible to begin with from what I have had a chance to play, not sure why they hit Eldar so hard. I mean BABY STEPS! yes relic buff first nerf later! TSM needed a buff, certain abilities in the eldar army needed a bit of reworking, increased cooldowns and costs could have easily fixed. instead one faction got hit with a nerf almost right across the board.
On a side note, hopefully they're going to change their minds on some of the nerfs
@Toonicker said:
I can't say I have much experience playing with Eldar, and honestly I just haven't had much time to play DoW3 in general which I regret. But I can still see this was an over nerf of that faction. Relic is concerned with balance and in all honesty the balance wasn't THAT horrible to begin with from what I have had a chance to play, not sure why they hit Eldar so hard. I mean BABY STEPS! yes relic buff first nerf later! TSM needed a buff, certain abilities in the eldar army needed a bit of reworking, increased cooldowns and costs could have easily fixed. instead one faction got hit with a nerf almost right across the board.
On a side note, hopefully they're going to change their minds on some of the nerfs
You do realize how broken Eldar was right? With their teleporting WWG in T1, FoF essentially being anywhere you could want it, and then true damage scorpions on top of that mix flanking and absolutely wiping shield gens before the 10 minute mark? The ASM were the only unit the SM had that could do something similar with their true damage power swords at T1. They were nerfed because the play wasn't about skill, but doctrines that required very little skill to make the overpowered mechanics work.
@Toonicker said:
I can't say I have much experience playing with Eldar, and honestly I just haven't had much time to play DoW3 in general which I regret. But I can still see this was an over nerf of that faction. Relic is concerned with balance and in all honesty the balance wasn't THAT horrible to begin with from what I have had a chance to play, not sure why they hit Eldar so hard. I mean BABY STEPS! yes relic buff first nerf later! TSM needed a buff, certain abilities in the eldar army needed a bit of reworking, increased cooldowns and costs could have easily fixed. instead one faction got hit with a nerf almost right across the board.
On a side note, hopefully they're going to change their minds on some of the nerfs
You do realize how broken Eldar was right? With their teleporting WWG in T1, FoF essentially being anywhere you could want it, and then true damage scorpions on top of that mix flanking and absolutely wiping shield gens before the 10 minute mark? The ASM were the only unit the SM had that could do something similar with their true damage power swords at T1. They were nerfed because the play wasn't about skill, but doctrines that required very little skill to make the overpowered mechanics work.
Eldar were broken but they didn't need all of the nerfs they got. All that Eldar really needed were T1 gateways and the true dmg from scorpions toned down. Why did Relic completely overlook on buffing Vypers? They buffed something for every other race, and all that Eldar got were some weak mines for warp spiders and fire prisms, (which I can guarantee will lose you the game if you think you can make a build around it, they are tier 3 and way too much power for their effectiveness).
Also, tell me this, why do the Orks act more like a "hit and run" race than Eldar? KillaKans can fire a volley of rockets and actually run away. Can Wraithgaurds do this? Wraithgaurds are so slow that by the time they turn around to slow crawl away they're already dead. You're basically confined to one area with Eldar, and you have to inch your way out of your base with extreme caution or you die to lootas/flamers. I put Eldar in the "Hit and die" category, because by the time they're done doing damage and try to run away, they're already dead.
@Toonicker said:
I can't say I have much experience playing with Eldar, and honestly I just haven't had much time to play DoW3 in general which I regret. But I can still see this was an over nerf of that faction. Relic is concerned with balance and in all honesty the balance wasn't THAT horrible to begin with from what I have had a chance to play, not sure why they hit Eldar so hard. I mean BABY STEPS! yes relic buff first nerf later! TSM needed a buff, certain abilities in the eldar army needed a bit of reworking, increased cooldowns and costs could have easily fixed. instead one faction got hit with a nerf almost right across the board.
On a side note, hopefully they're going to change their minds on some of the nerfs
You do realize how broken Eldar was right? With their teleporting WWG in T1, FoF essentially being anywhere you could want it, and then true damage scorpions on top of that mix flanking and absolutely wiping shield gens before the 10 minute mark? The ASM were the only unit the SM had that could do something similar with their true damage power swords at T1. They were nerfed because the play wasn't about skill, but doctrines that required very little skill to make the overpowered mechanics work.
Eldar were broken but they didn't need all of the nerfs they got. All that Eldar really needed were T1 gateways and the true dmg from scorpions toned down. Why did Relic completely overlook on buffing Vypers? They buffed something for every other race, and all that Eldar got were some weak mines for warp spiders and fire prisms, (which I can guarantee will lose you the game if you think you can make a build around it, they are tier 3 and way too much power for their effectiveness).
Also, tell me this, why do the Orks act more like a "hit and run" race than Eldar? KillaKans can fire a volley of rockets and actually run away. Can Wraithgaurds do this? Wraithgaurds are so slow that by the time they turn around to slow crawl away they're already dead. You're basically confined to one area with Eldar, and you have to inch your way out of your base with extreme caution or you die to lootas/flamers. I put Eldar in the "Hit and die" category, because by the time they're done doing damage and try to run away, they're already dead.
I agree that they could use some tweaks, but with their shields the entire race doesn't have to contend with dps bleed that the other races do, on top of everything and shields weren't touched. I think relic is looking at the new game data after the patch and they are going to keep tweaking things based off that data. I think the issue is they had so much going for them early that now that they were brought way closer to being back in line its hard for a lot of people who were so used to the overwhelming presence they had, are having a hard time adjusting, specifically in T1
The problem here is that people are looking at things one in vacuum.
Eldar units and mechanics got nerfed multiple times while other things got buffed at the same time. It is either you nerf one side OR buff the other side. Not both at the same time.
It is true that Eldar had some cheese early game like true damage Scorpions or webway relocate in tier 1. But dire avengers were not over performing beyond the webway doctrine. Tacticals and shootas were under performing.
This is not about a paradigm shift when playing Eldar. Eldar are unplayable against Space marines now. Every single advantage is on the SM side now in the early game
@Katitof said:
Actually, both Cata and Bike are getting rekt hard by equal skill opponent(and given their positions on ladder, there is no such thing as player who greatly outplayes them in terms of skill).
They do fine, because they are better then 95% of the community, not because Eldar are still strong, literally every single unit short of reapers(who aren't that amazing in the first place) and shadow specters were nerfed hard either directly, or indirectly by putting a webway leash on them.
After 10 minutes its ok, but eldar early game is all about harassing generators while avoiding any combat at all costs.
Cataclaw has straight up said on stream that he thinks Eldar are fine and the game is better after the patch, but he needed to adapt. I'd trust his opinion as he is a dedicated top level player.
I have not seen Bikerush "get rekt" while playing Eldar, so I'll take your word for it. Though I highly doubt it.
Actually if you go to his stream he has a statement about his views on the new eldar balance and it seems to give the impression he doesn't think they are fine.
p.s. I personally am not sure what I think about where they are yet.
@Katitof said:
Actually, both Cata and Bike are getting rekt hard by equal skill opponent(and given their positions on ladder, there is no such thing as player who greatly outplayes them in terms of skill).
They do fine, because they are better then 95% of the community, not because Eldar are still strong, literally every single unit short of reapers(who aren't that amazing in the first place) and shadow specters were nerfed hard either directly, or indirectly by putting a webway leash on them.
After 10 minutes its ok, but eldar early game is all about harassing generators while avoiding any combat at all costs.
Cataclaw has straight up said on stream that he thinks Eldar are fine and the game is better after the patch, but he needed to adapt. I'd trust his opinion as he is a dedicated top level player.
I have not seen Bikerush "get rekt" while playing Eldar, so I'll take your word for it. Though I highly doubt it.
If he actually said that he was probably premature about it. I watched his stream last night before I went to bed, and it seems he turned around on his opinion. He came forward, made a statement on twitch as well to Relic, how Eldar is ruined, He has to work his ++heresy redacted++ off to be able to beat mediocre SM players, it was just awful to watch. Against decent SM's, he stood no chance at all whatsoever. Patch has been released for a couple of days, and it's safe to say that Eldar just got gutted way to hard.
I see alot of folks posting stuff like ''yerr but Elderp does not bleed dps when shieldz r up!'' You seem to forget once shields are down, every single shot from whatever kills off a model. Shields are the true HP for Eldar, that green bar beneath shields is some insurance to allow them to hit and run.
No idea why I bother to post though, as it seems most forum posters are ranked 200-1000 and are thus quite happy with this patch overall. lol.
@Gorb said:
Reminder that insulting people based on generalisations of their skill level are still insults, and prohibited by the forum terms and conditions.
@Katitof said:
Actually, both Cata and Bike are getting rekt hard by equal skill opponent(and given their positions on ladder, there is no such thing as player who greatly outplayes them in terms of skill).
They do fine, because they are better then 95% of the community, not because Eldar are still strong, literally every single unit short of reapers(who aren't that amazing in the first place) and shadow specters were nerfed hard either directly, or indirectly by putting a webway leash on them.
After 10 minutes its ok, but eldar early game is all about harassing generators while avoiding any combat at all costs.
Cataclaw has straight up said on stream that he thinks Eldar are fine and the game is better after the patch, but he needed to adapt. I'd trust his opinion as he is a dedicated top level player.
I have not seen Bikerush "get rekt" while playing Eldar, so I'll take your word for it. Though I highly doubt it.
Cataclaw is constantly complaining about the changes though, at least with no more T1 relocate, saying he's not having fun anymore with Eldar. He swore and hit his keyboard at one point out of frustration, saying he was going to quit the game. It was painful to watch.
Well, I can see why is that.
First 10 minutes as eldar are least enjoyable thing in dow3, its just a chore and race for fast falcon.
@TripSin said:
Cataclaw is constantly complaining about the changes though, at least with no more T1 relocate, saying he's not having fun anymore with Eldar. He swore and hit his keyboard at one point out of frustration, saying he was going to quit the game. It was painful to watch.
For more than a month he would almost never lose a game, and have his opponents concede before the 13 minute mark. He barely had to work. I'd be frustrated too if I found out that my win rate was going to be closer to 50/50 after cruising on a 85/15 win rate for more than a month. That starts to normalize the feeling of winning. Starting to lose more often would feel like a slap in the face, but shouldn't 50/50 win rates be a healthy benchmark? Maybe his rank was artificially high based on the previous Eldar?
It's tough to say, and I could be wrong about all this.
@TripSin said:
Cataclaw is constantly complaining about the changes though, at least with no more T1 relocate, saying he's not having fun anymore with Eldar. He swore and hit his keyboard at one point out of frustration, saying he was going to quit the game. It was painful to watch.
For more than a month he would almost never lose a game, and have his opponents concede before the 13 minute mark. He barely had to work. I'd be frustrated too if I found out that my win rate was going to be closer to 50/50 after cruising on a 85/15 win rate for more than a month. That starts to normalize the feeling of winning. Starting to lose more often would feel like a slap in the face, but shouldn't 50/50 win rates be a healthy benchmark? Maybe his rank was artificially high based on the previous Eldar?
It's tough to say, and I could be wrong about all this.
That could actually be an interesting conversation to have in theory. So the patch took a bit to roll out, those 30 days saw some cheese for sure, but the most broken was Eldar. (ASM was bad, but it was a single unit) How much in those 30 days do you think that a large portion of ork SM players (Not the ASM cheese players mind you) got way better at the game mechanics, because they had to if they wanted to not just get stomped over and over again, while Eldar (and this is nothing about player skill mind you, this is about the challenges each player faced) had a lot more strong options, especially early game and they didn't need to push their playstyle nearly as hard as the other two races. Does anyone think that might have lead to some of what we are seeing now in terms of the eldar struggle?
That could actually be an interesting conversation to have in theory. So the patch took a bit to roll out, those 30 days saw some cheese for sure, but the most broken was Eldar. (ASM was bad, but it was a single unit) How much in those 30 days do you think that a large portion of ork SM players (Not the ASM cheese players mind you) got way better at the game mechanics, because they had to if they wanted to not just get stomped over and over again, while Eldar (and this is nothing about player skill mind you, this is about the challenges each player faced) had a lot more strong options, especially early game and they didn't need to push their playstyle nearly as hard as the other two races. Does anyone think that might have lead to some of what we are seeing now in terms of the eldar struggle?
Yep I totally agree on that. I play eldar only and it was really faceroll before the patch. Now it is I think even. The nerf on rangers was unjustified though.
I agree the fundamental change to availability of the eldar race mechanic has put alot of eldar players off because their speed advantage and presence is somewhat limited to the do or die with webway gate placement.
I play all races but like orks the most and find myself having an extremely hard time using eldar without fleet of foot. The problem stems from the actual level at which eldar are played at and I frankly believed that previous eldar was too forgiving and had too many strong points. So when I challenged myself to play eldar without Fleet of Foot it was super hard not because I was at a disadvantage but the level at which I had be in order to gain advantages.
I'm not good at this game, nor do I play much. I honestly have no idea if Eldar are fine or underpowered, I just don't like how the early game mobility got taken away so badly. The next thing that I don't like in this patch is, that they nerfed one thing pretty hard while buffing another thing at the same time. I would rather see small balance changes every 1-2 weeks like Riot is doing with League of Legends for example.
My biggest concern is that Eldar is indeed seriously underperforming and that Eldar players will just quit the game as a consequence. The game does already not have many players and pushing away a playerbase of a whole faction won't help the game in any way.
The easiest way to see how balance is going might be taking a look at the winrates of the races from top tier players in one or two weeks. If the winrate is too low the race probably needs a buff, if it is too high the race needs probably a nerf.
Gonna go ahead and post this here as well, which i have previously posted in a Eldar thread and on my twitch channel since people seem unsure about what i think about the patch.
Eldar is now required to scout their opponent, and go for the side of the map where the enemy is not located, to build listening posts and bunker up defensively and place their very first Webway Gate. What happened to Eldar, being about mobility and speed? The early game is boring now, and does certainly not feel 'Eldar' at all. Until Tier 2 or if they build a second Webway Gate on a more aggressive position, or am i perhaps just too used to the mobility and speed from the previous patches? It was fun having a active building in our asset, and it felt very Eldar to emphasize on teleporting it around from the beginning of the game. Now the early game is put into holding position and defending. Where is the hit & run that should be there from the start of the game, that the faction was sold as?
I just do not still agree with this single decision. Relic really had something going for the Eldar faction being unique with the Fleet of Foot and teleporting buildings. It fit in with the Eldar roleplay so well. The problems in my eyes, were that the units themselves were overperforming.
Overall, i think the patch is great, and a big step in the right direction. The ranger power cost increase was very unnecessary though. I do miss the speed in the early game, im not sold on the other factions being so much more mobile than Eldar in the early game, it breaks my spirit a little.
What do you guys think about the patch? I am still trying to adapt my gameplay to the new Eldar! I still find them to be strong, but way harder to play effectively now, because it is hard to find the timing of when you are supposed to stop camping and go on the offensive. It feels like you are thrown into the underdog position straight away in the beginning of the game, with no choice but to give up map control and lick your wounds and be happy with whatever you can scavenge until you can build up a unit composition reactionary to your opponent.
I love the new patch, its a great step in the right direction and we now require unit compositions rather than spamming the most cost-efficient unit, don't get me wrong on this. But i fail to enjoy the Eldar in their current state with the turtle style early game against good players. I can still jump into quickmatch and do 10 seal clubbing games if no other good players are on at the moment, but its atrocious when you go up against other top players, the character of the race is just.. completely gone in the early game.
For the Aeldari brethren & sisters, here is a cast that highlights my game style right now against Space Marines. He was Rank 3 at the time, and me being Rank 2 Aeldari.
Seems like the devs nerfs stuff they found "unfun" to play against and not that it's necessarily OP. Maybe that's why eldar got some unnecessary nerfs (like the ranger nerf).
Anyways suck it in, you guys abused the hell out of an obscenely OP unit (DA+SS) so it's only fair SM gets all the fun now
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RedDevilCG
Cataclaw has straight up said on stream that he thinks Eldar are fine and the game is better after the patch, but he needed to adapt. I'd trust his opinion as he is a dedicated top level player.
I have not seen Bikerush "get rekt" while playing Eldar, so I'll take your word for it. Though I highly doubt it.
KotCR
Sooo....hit and run?
Here's the thing. That's how Eldar is supposed to be.
One of the problems pre-patch with the game, was this is actually how the Space Marine had to play to have any chance of winning - the Eldar would quite happily and easily win the head-on fights.
The difference here being, the Eldar have the tools for that sort of thing. The race is designed around the concept of hit and run. The Space Marine don't, which is why they were so weak pre-patch - bar the one early unit they had that could do this, ASM, which is another reason it got spammed.
Stoner
I don't know what's the whining about Eldar, they can't isntakill everything like before, but fighting vs them is still pretty hard. DAs still do pretty high damage for their cost, their nades still knockdown and hurt units. Army under constant +50% FOF is hard to nail and their shields are still the same way as before, preventing them from bleeding which results in higher DPS than other races. I don't think they are designed for hit and run, they are still very solid in front line combat and even getting on top if you micro units back and forth with low/high shield.
Chokolata
Eldar are completely unplayable against SM on open maps like Pass or Mire. Tireless doctrine and tactical marine buffs let SM take the initiative from the get go and that advantage just piles up with drop pods and kill team.
There is no way in hell Eldar can keep up with map presence, and their tier 1 backbone got broken with double Dire avenger nerfs and triple Scorpion nerfs.
Just for people who do not know as it was not in the patch notes: Aside from removal of true damage and hunt bonus reductions to damage and speed, Scorpion shields and health also got reduced significantly.
Katitof
Yes, except the run part doesn't work anymore.
MaxwellsDaemon
@KotCR also I'd argue trukks and asm leap are excellent (better) hit and run tools than anything Eldar have before T2.
Regant
Playing eldar is now logistic nightmare. Early game hell. I not really an excelent player and I play mainly 3v3. Never abused level 1 porting gates and had healthy 59% winrate as an eldar before patch came. Now? I think I played out of seven games like one against player who wasnt an SM (of course the other one WAS SM). Every SINGLE ONE of them LOSS and only single SM I was playing against wasnt using full 3 doc Wombo Combo tacs. So from my stand of view Eldar lost nearly all of theirs abusable mechanics while SM got new ones (for measly price of their AMS still working just fine while not being savagely broken). And orks still have their trucks farting living bombs folowed by Nobs (or normal Boyz cus they seems to be enough to mow down Eldar out of FoF). While looking on some of the games of better players I hadnt seen any huge reward for Eldars being so hard and seemingly underpowered. WTF Relic you literaly created a Meepo (Volvo Dodo) while taking away his Poof. How in the name of Khain's burning balls are Eldar players now suppose to win when they lose early game so hard, against now both orks and SM never able to capitalize on won engegment to clear out enemy units outside of FoF. Balancing my ++heresy redacted++.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Regant Eloquently put.
Yeah if I win an engagement as Eldar in T1 I almost just make myself content with surviving the engagement and hopefully having inflicted more losses than receiving.
With no relocation of webway gates you often can't pursue for squad wipes and then pushing for map control requires the building of a new webway gate which takes time, money and a commitment to spreading yourself more thinly to defending your webway investment.
If you attempt to push without battlefocus the risks far outweigh the rewards as you have no significant means of inflicting damage and it affords the opponent a very real opportunity to punish you.
In T2 the situation changes with falcons or vypers. But this is a long wait.
This issue is less pronounced for SM and Orks as they have more crowd control options and escape utility (trucks leap etc)
CANNED_F3TUS
Banshees always were more of a anti range unit than a dedicated anti melee unit. They have the damage output but not the healthpool to stick around long enough to effectivly deal or trade with dedicated melee units that have the health advantage and about the same dps as banshees. Banshees are fragile and use their speed and DpS to kill squads that cant fight back in melee.
DoW 2 treated the banshee the same way. Worked wonders at destroying ranged units in a hurry and could hurt melee units very well but it would always be costly for banshees if they got caught up in extended melee brawls.
Fww
Well speed they sure don't have, and damage is questionable.
CANNED_F3TUS
Eeeh with Fof banshees arent bad in DoW 3 especially if someone is focusing a build around them. All eldar units are slow without Fof.
Molek123
And now you have only FoF at 30% map before t2. So we are back to beginning.
Toonicker
I can't say I have much experience playing with Eldar, and honestly I just haven't had much time to play DoW3 in general which I regret. But I can still see this was an over nerf of that faction. Relic is concerned with balance and in all honesty the balance wasn't THAT horrible to begin with from what I have had a chance to play, not sure why they hit Eldar so hard. I mean BABY STEPS! yes relic buff first nerf later! TSM needed a buff, certain abilities in the eldar army needed a bit of reworking, increased cooldowns and costs could have easily fixed. instead one faction got hit with a nerf almost right across the board.
On a side note, hopefully they're going to change their minds on some of the nerfs
Strangequark
You do realize how broken Eldar was right? With their teleporting WWG in T1, FoF essentially being anywhere you could want it, and then true damage scorpions on top of that mix flanking and absolutely wiping shield gens before the 10 minute mark? The ASM were the only unit the SM had that could do something similar with their true damage power swords at T1. They were nerfed because the play wasn't about skill, but doctrines that required very little skill to make the overpowered mechanics work.
OriGinS
Eldar were broken but they didn't need all of the nerfs they got. All that Eldar really needed were T1 gateways and the true dmg from scorpions toned down. Why did Relic completely overlook on buffing Vypers? They buffed something for every other race, and all that Eldar got were some weak mines for warp spiders and fire prisms, (which I can guarantee will lose you the game if you think you can make a build around it, they are tier 3 and way too much power for their effectiveness).
Also, tell me this, why do the Orks act more like a "hit and run" race than Eldar? KillaKans can fire a volley of rockets and actually run away. Can Wraithgaurds do this? Wraithgaurds are so slow that by the time they turn around to slow crawl away they're already dead. You're basically confined to one area with Eldar, and you have to inch your way out of your base with extreme caution or you die to lootas/flamers. I put Eldar in the "Hit and die" category, because by the time they're done doing damage and try to run away, they're already dead.
Strangequark
I agree that they could use some tweaks, but with their shields the entire race doesn't have to contend with dps bleed that the other races do, on top of everything and shields weren't touched. I think relic is looking at the new game data after the patch and they are going to keep tweaking things based off that data. I think the issue is they had so much going for them early that now that they were brought way closer to being back in line its hard for a lot of people who were so used to the overwhelming presence they had, are having a hard time adjusting, specifically in T1
Chokolata
The problem here is that people are looking at things one in vacuum.
Eldar units and mechanics got nerfed multiple times while other things got buffed at the same time. It is either you nerf one side OR buff the other side. Not both at the same time.
It is true that Eldar had some cheese early game like true damage Scorpions or webway relocate in tier 1. But dire avengers were not over performing beyond the webway doctrine. Tacticals and shootas were under performing.
This is not about a paradigm shift when playing Eldar. Eldar are unplayable against Space marines now. Every single advantage is on the SM side now in the early game
Wardemon
Actually if you go to his stream he has a statement about his views on the new eldar balance and it seems to give the impression he doesn't think they are fine.
p.s. I personally am not sure what I think about where they are yet.
Evenio
If he actually said that he was probably premature about it. I watched his stream last night before I went to bed, and it seems he turned around on his opinion. He came forward, made a statement on twitch as well to Relic, how Eldar is ruined, He has to work his ++heresy redacted++ off to be able to beat mediocre SM players, it was just awful to watch. Against decent SM's, he stood no chance at all whatsoever. Patch has been released for a couple of days, and it's safe to say that Eldar just got gutted way to hard.
I see alot of folks posting stuff like ''yerr but Elderp does not bleed dps when shieldz r up!'' You seem to forget once shields are down, every single shot from whatever kills off a model. Shields are the true HP for Eldar, that green bar beneath shields is some insurance to allow them to hit and run.
No idea why I bother to post though, as it seems most forum posters are ranked 200-1000 and are thus quite happy with this patch overall. lol.
Gorb
Reminder that insulting people based on generalisations of their skill level are still insults, and prohibited by the forum terms and conditions.
Moderator Post
Evenio
Sowwy Gorb
Katitof
Well, I can see why is that.
First 10 minutes as eldar are least enjoyable thing in dow3, its just a chore and race for fast falcon.
RedDevilCG
For more than a month he would almost never lose a game, and have his opponents concede before the 13 minute mark. He barely had to work. I'd be frustrated too if I found out that my win rate was going to be closer to 50/50 after cruising on a 85/15 win rate for more than a month. That starts to normalize the feeling of winning. Starting to lose more often would feel like a slap in the face, but shouldn't 50/50 win rates be a healthy benchmark? Maybe his rank was artificially high based on the previous Eldar?
It's tough to say, and I could be wrong about all this.
Strangequark
That could actually be an interesting conversation to have in theory. So the patch took a bit to roll out, those 30 days saw some cheese for sure, but the most broken was Eldar. (ASM was bad, but it was a single unit) How much in those 30 days do you think that a large portion of ork SM players (Not the ASM cheese players mind you) got way better at the game mechanics, because they had to if they wanted to not just get stomped over and over again, while Eldar (and this is nothing about player skill mind you, this is about the challenges each player faced) had a lot more strong options, especially early game and they didn't need to push their playstyle nearly as hard as the other two races. Does anyone think that might have lead to some of what we are seeing now in terms of the eldar struggle?
Meltreness
Yep I totally agree on that. I play eldar only and it was really faceroll before the patch. Now it is I think even. The nerf on rangers was unjustified though.
Azzakye
I agree the fundamental change to availability of the eldar race mechanic has put alot of eldar players off because their speed advantage and presence is somewhat limited to the do or die with webway gate placement.
I play all races but like orks the most and find myself having an extremely hard time using eldar without fleet of foot. The problem stems from the actual level at which eldar are played at and I frankly believed that previous eldar was too forgiving and had too many strong points. So when I challenged myself to play eldar without Fleet of Foot it was super hard not because I was at a disadvantage but the level at which I had be in order to gain advantages.
Fitness_Lauch
I'm not good at this game, nor do I play much. I honestly have no idea if Eldar are fine or underpowered, I just don't like how the early game mobility got taken away so badly. The next thing that I don't like in this patch is, that they nerfed one thing pretty hard while buffing another thing at the same time. I would rather see small balance changes every 1-2 weeks like Riot is doing with League of Legends for example.
My biggest concern is that Eldar is indeed seriously underperforming and that Eldar players will just quit the game as a consequence. The game does already not have many players and pushing away a playerbase of a whole faction won't help the game in any way.
The easiest way to see how balance is going might be taking a look at the winrates of the races from top tier players in one or two weeks. If the winrate is too low the race probably needs a buff, if it is too high the race needs probably a nerf.
Cataclawy
Gonna go ahead and post this here as well, which i have previously posted in a Eldar thread and on my twitch channel since people seem unsure about what i think about the patch.
Eldar is now required to scout their opponent, and go for the side of the map where the enemy is not located, to build listening posts and bunker up defensively and place their very first Webway Gate. What happened to Eldar, being about mobility and speed? The early game is boring now, and does certainly not feel 'Eldar' at all. Until Tier 2 or if they build a second Webway Gate on a more aggressive position, or am i perhaps just too used to the mobility and speed from the previous patches? It was fun having a active building in our asset, and it felt very Eldar to emphasize on teleporting it around from the beginning of the game. Now the early game is put into holding position and defending. Where is the hit & run that should be there from the start of the game, that the faction was sold as?
I just do not still agree with this single decision. Relic really had something going for the Eldar faction being unique with the Fleet of Foot and teleporting buildings. It fit in with the Eldar roleplay so well. The problems in my eyes, were that the units themselves were overperforming.
Overall, i think the patch is great, and a big step in the right direction. The ranger power cost increase was very unnecessary though. I do miss the speed in the early game, im not sold on the other factions being so much more mobile than Eldar in the early game, it breaks my spirit a little.
What do you guys think about the patch? I am still trying to adapt my gameplay to the new Eldar! I still find them to be strong, but way harder to play effectively now, because it is hard to find the timing of when you are supposed to stop camping and go on the offensive. It feels like you are thrown into the underdog position straight away in the beginning of the game, with no choice but to give up map control and lick your wounds and be happy with whatever you can scavenge until you can build up a unit composition reactionary to your opponent.
I love the new patch, its a great step in the right direction and we now require unit compositions rather than spamming the most cost-efficient unit, don't get me wrong on this. But i fail to enjoy the Eldar in their current state with the turtle style early game against good players. I can still jump into quickmatch and do 10 seal clubbing games if no other good players are on at the moment, but its atrocious when you go up against other top players, the character of the race is just.. completely gone in the early game.
For the Aeldari brethren & sisters, here is a cast that highlights my game style right now against Space Marines. He was Rank 3 at the time, and me being Rank 2 Aeldari.
jambai
Seems like the devs nerfs stuff they found "unfun" to play against and not that it's necessarily OP. Maybe that's why eldar got some unnecessary nerfs (like the ranger nerf).
Anyways suck it in, you guys abused the hell out of an obscenely OP unit (DA+SS) so it's only fair SM gets all the fun now