I don't think a reluctance to use all of the tools at your disposal is going to help a balance discussion. Different game modes are going to value different things more/less. In a 1v1, having an Elite out ASAP helps gain map presence, so the 2 EP elites are high value. In 2v2s or 3v3s, you might be able to delay to a 3 EP elite with teamwork/delayed push strategies.
And that should be OK. I don't think we should be able to arbitrarily define what we want to do and expect the game to balance around it. If you want to compete in an RTS, you need to do what is required to win against your opponent. If your opponent pushes a 2 EP elite in 1v1, you're probably going to need one yourself, or you're going to need a counter-push plan with your 3 EP elite two minutes later, if you can manage.
@rick157 said:
If anyone can give me a little insight, the newest patch hasn't yet been added to my Download queue.
Is there any way to trigger it manually, or do I have to wait?
Thanks guys!
Can you play the game? If so, what is the version # in the bottom right of the menu?
It could be that the patch auto downloaded and you didn't notice.
I can, yes!
Right now, it says Version # 4.0.0.16220.
Thank you so much for the help @LowTone!
That's the latest version. I think you're all patched up.
@PrimaGoosa said:
I don't think a reluctance to use all of the tools at your disposal is going to help a balance discussion. Different game modes are going to value different things more/less. In a 1v1, having an Elite out ASAP helps gain map presence, so the 2 EP elites are high value. In 2v2s or 3v3s, you might be able to delay to a 3 EP elite with teamwork/delayed push strategies.
And that should be OK. I don't think we should be able to arbitrarily define what we want to do and expect the game to balance around it. If you want to compete in an RTS, you need to do what is required to win against your opponent. If your opponent pushes a 2 EP elite in 1v1, you're probably going to need one yourself, or you're going to need a counter-push plan with your 3 EP elite two minutes later, if you can manage.
Maybe if each race had 2 2pt elites this wouldn't be so much of a problem (feeling forced to take the same 2pt every time).
Not sure if it would be easy to balance, though. How much more powerful would 2 2pts be against 1 4pt? It's already pretty suicidal to go directly to 1 5pt if there's an opposing 2-3 combination in the field.
Tricky, but not a big problem. Certain units will be integral to specific modes. 9pts do have trouble shining in 1v1s after all, yet are common in 3v3.
@PrimaGoosa said:
I don't think a reluctance to use all of the tools at your disposal is going to help a balance discussion. Different game modes are going to value different things more/less. In a 1v1, having an Elite out ASAP helps gain map presence, so the 2 EP elites are high value. In 2v2s or 3v3s, you might be able to delay to a 3 EP elite with teamwork/delayed push strategies.
And that should be OK. I don't think we should be able to arbitrarily define what we want to do and expect the game to balance around it. If you want to compete in an RTS, you need to do what is required to win against your opponent. If your opponent pushes a 2 EP elite in 1v1, you're probably going to need one yourself, or you're going to need a counter-push plan with your 3 EP elite two minutes later, if you can manage.
Maybe if each race had 2 2pt elites this wouldn't be so much of a problem (feeling forced to take the same 2pt every time).
Not sure if it would be easy to balance, though. How much more powerful would 2 2pts be against 1 4pt? It's already pretty suicidal to go directly to 1 5pt if there's an opposing 2-3 combination in the field.
Tricky, but not a big problem. Certain units will be integral to specific modes. 9pts do have trouble shining in 1v1s after all, yet are common in 3v3.
And if there are 2 2pts, are people going to just have to take both because having 2 2pts gets you map control before a 2 and 3 come out?
I totally understand the urge to not want to do the "meta" thing, but even if you do a similar thing every game, execution is still a huge factor of RTS gameplay.
You also know when those elites are going to come out. I take no 2 point elite and go straight to 3 points - you just have to be prepared for that 4 minute mark and plan for it. Then when 6 minutes hits you now have the advantage. Same goes for higher elites, if they have spent 2 elite points on a very early game elite, and you can handle it and they have say a 2 point and a 3 point, you could potentially wait for your 5 point elite. Up to you to decide if that's worth it, but you would have a 5 point out at the same time they can get a 2 and a 3 point out.
You have to play around the elite choices of both players as well as the game state.
One really important thing I would say is - don't just summon your elites as soon as you are able to unless you have a solid plan for them. Its often pretty easy to skip earlier elites and not lose too much(if you are planning for this).
2/2pts vs 2/3pts won't give that much of an edge, elite generators being equal. It's a 2 minute lead that will lose effectiveness really quickly once the 3pt hits the field and closes the gap of elite units in play on each side.
I was talking about 2/2pts vs 4pt, which is a different matter. Not only there's a 4 minute lead for the 2/2 (still assuming no elite generator as the baseline), but even when the 4pt hits the field, the 2/2 will still have one extra elite on the table. He can choose to split his forces and have a 2pt decide engagements where the 4pt isn't present, while stalling the 4pt with his other 2pt. Or just have more options to engage the 4pt on a full army fight (2 units, each with abilities/stuns vs single unit). This can already be verified by rushing a 5pt vs a 2/3pt load-out. Assuming micro between players is about even, even if you dedicate one 3pt to help lock down the 5pt (say a Jonah walling and blinding a Gabe), you still have the other (Killteam) changing the tide by void nading a couple of squads into tac flamers.
Cool thing about the game is that as the match progresses and armies get bigger, the disparity between low point elite loadouts tends to lessen. I agree that execution changes everything, but I'm also for variety in choice. The way I see more 2pt options in the game without breaking the balance would be if we had a cap of 1 per loadout.
Let's see what the future brings!
Likely nothing in this regard, but hey! Theorycrafting.
Yeah, you're probably right re: 2/2 vs 2/3. And the more I think about balance in games, the more I think variety in choice is just an illusion if you actually want to win, especially in 1v1 scenarios. I'd be happy to see more elites for various point values, but my guess is that one would shine brighter than the other, and we'd be discussing "I can't choose X 2pt elite because Y is better in the scenarios that actually occur in the game, please fix".
So yeah, we'll see. I like playing around with new things, so if they release new elites, for me it's just an opportunity to hop in and explore stuff, which is always fun. Regardless of balance.
We're always going to have peeps complaining @PrimaGoosa
I don't have the time, predisposition or talent to be really competitive at this game. But I do like seeing a different mix of elites on the loading screen and going "oh, I never seen this one before, this could be interesting And educational"
It's not so much about winning for me and hopefully others,(it's always nice, don't get me wrong), but about playing a solid game and using or facing different stuff. I leave routine and a deep desire for optimisation at work.
As strategies and play styles evolve so will elite choices. This is the perfect time to be trying out all kinds of things! Just make sure when you try them, you know why you are picking x, y or z and not trying to play like its your standard comp(as this is what leads to thoughts like x is useless compared to y).
Doesn't summoning an elite reset the elite point timer? So the best time to summon immediately is after ticking over 2 points, otherwise you might have to wait till 3 points to call your two point elite???
A potential fix for this would be to make it so that the elites you choose are the ones you can resurrect when they die and the only ones that give you doctrine buffs, but you have access to all elites in game. And when one player unlocks the elites at the level 2 spot, the level 2 elites unlock for everyone. This would allow people who have strategies based on bringing out more expensive elites about to play those strategies without being forced to delay or abandon them by feeling the need to take a 2 pt elite while still giving them a counterplay option. It also keeps the elites you select meaningful.
And since im already typing... I also think you should be able to choose a doctrine for every single unit but only one doctrine per unit type unless one of the elites you select has a doctrine. This avoids the situation we're in now where a player's build could force you to abandon the units you took doctrines for which puts you at a significant disadvantage.
The idea with both of these is a way to preserve parity between opponents while still allowing choices of elites and doctrines to be meaningful.
I'm getting sick and tired of having to play with deathwatch kill team in every team game or give up the match because enemy kill teams just roll over us in early game. Hands down best 2 pointer in game just because it can undeploy and change to rocket launcher, Biggest 'F you' is that they come in a drop pod. Opening with setup teams is a suicide against them. I guess gotta stick to tac/asm spam.
@AtlasDoomOcculta said:
Nope. You keep acquiring EPs regardless. Get a 4pt with 6 points left? Keep 2 points as change
He means like if the timer is 120s per point and you summon something at 2 elite points but with 30 seconds to the next point, at the point of summoning it would go to 0 with 120 seconds left.
I have no idea if this is true, I havnt paid attention to the timer. And I usually summon the second it becomes available.
After extensive testing of the patch at the top of the 2v2 MMR. My teammate and I have found the patch has fundamentally changed the early and midgame. Requisition to Power ratio has improved the strength of the listening post and promotes as greedy as possible early game openings - often including upgrading multiple generators at the same time right off the bat using the (possible) glitch. [Possible* as it wasn't addressed in the hotfix.... maybe it's supposed to be there?]
Early game harassment has slowed in favor of a defensive early game into aggressive mid game in most of the upper level 2v2 matches thanks to the changes, which although not necessarily a bad thing it limits the diversity of strategies once available since requisition is now a given whether you upgrade any nodes of it or not. If you overcommit to the early game you should always lose against an equally skilled team given the strength of the multiple setup units (Loota's / Devestators / Reapers) anyone is now able to build. One Setup unit was able to be combated by a tricky worker wrapping them up, a multipronged attack, or a skillshot. But now with requisition bonus almost anybody worth their weight will have 2 or more of them before a rush is able to do any real damage. IMO these units have become overpowered not due to the balance change of units but due to the economic changes.
Other notes (coming from an orc player):
Trucks are now the support unit they were intended to be, I believe this change was good for the overall game although I feel changing the suicide shot to 60s cooldown may have been a bit overboard along with the damage nerf. Would rather see a slight increase in repetitive unit ejects.
Striking Scorpions have been nerfed a little too hard in comparison to the other available 2p and 3p elites; once a staple in the aggressive openers pre-patch it has come to the point where if a player chooses SS the game should swing in favor of the opposition nearly every time.
Banshee's / Assault Marines / Boys are in a pretty good spot unit balance wise, they feel a bit weak for the cost but I believe this is only due to the economic power / requisition ratio at the moment. It is VERY easy to survive with the ranged setup units and mass power generator upgrades until you have something better and these units are no longer useful mid to late game.
Kyre balance likely needs to be looked at. The abiltiy to have 3 charges and if your midgame squads are caught its almost certain death is very strong compared to every other 4,5,6,7p elite.
There are also a lot of very strong (read: OP and I'm sure will eventually be patched) units / tricks / abilities that have emerged since and have yet to be addressed. Many of these are still extremely underutilized and a few possibly counter-less at the moment. Excited for the future though and the next balance patch.
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Comments
PrimaGoosa
I don't think a reluctance to use all of the tools at your disposal is going to help a balance discussion. Different game modes are going to value different things more/less. In a 1v1, having an Elite out ASAP helps gain map presence, so the 2 EP elites are high value. In 2v2s or 3v3s, you might be able to delay to a 3 EP elite with teamwork/delayed push strategies.
And that should be OK. I don't think we should be able to arbitrarily define what we want to do and expect the game to balance around it. If you want to compete in an RTS, you need to do what is required to win against your opponent. If your opponent pushes a 2 EP elite in 1v1, you're probably going to need one yourself, or you're going to need a counter-push plan with your 3 EP elite two minutes later, if you can manage.
LowTone
That's the latest version. I think you're all patched up.
AtlasDoomOcculta
Maybe if each race had 2 2pt elites this wouldn't be so much of a problem (feeling forced to take the same 2pt every time).
Not sure if it would be easy to balance, though. How much more powerful would 2 2pts be against 1 4pt? It's already pretty suicidal to go directly to 1 5pt if there's an opposing 2-3 combination in the field.
Tricky, but not a big problem. Certain units will be integral to specific modes. 9pts do have trouble shining in 1v1s after all, yet are common in 3v3.
PrimaGoosa
And if there are 2 2pts, are people going to just have to take both because having 2 2pts gets you map control before a 2 and 3 come out?
I totally understand the urge to not want to do the "meta" thing, but even if you do a similar thing every game, execution is still a huge factor of RTS gameplay.
Castiel
You also know when those elites are going to come out. I take no 2 point elite and go straight to 3 points - you just have to be prepared for that 4 minute mark and plan for it. Then when 6 minutes hits you now have the advantage. Same goes for higher elites, if they have spent 2 elite points on a very early game elite, and you can handle it and they have say a 2 point and a 3 point, you could potentially wait for your 5 point elite. Up to you to decide if that's worth it, but you would have a 5 point out at the same time they can get a 2 and a 3 point out.
You have to play around the elite choices of both players as well as the game state.
One really important thing I would say is - don't just summon your elites as soon as you are able to unless you have a solid plan for them. Its often pretty easy to skip earlier elites and not lose too much(if you are planning for this).
AtlasDoomOcculta
@PrimaGoosa,
2/2pts vs 2/3pts won't give that much of an edge, elite generators being equal. It's a 2 minute lead that will lose effectiveness really quickly once the 3pt hits the field and closes the gap of elite units in play on each side.
I was talking about 2/2pts vs 4pt, which is a different matter. Not only there's a 4 minute lead for the 2/2 (still assuming no elite generator as the baseline), but even when the 4pt hits the field, the 2/2 will still have one extra elite on the table. He can choose to split his forces and have a 2pt decide engagements where the 4pt isn't present, while stalling the 4pt with his other 2pt. Or just have more options to engage the 4pt on a full army fight (2 units, each with abilities/stuns vs single unit). This can already be verified by rushing a 5pt vs a 2/3pt load-out. Assuming micro between players is about even, even if you dedicate one 3pt to help lock down the 5pt (say a Jonah walling and blinding a Gabe), you still have the other (Killteam) changing the tide by void nading a couple of squads into tac flamers.
Cool thing about the game is that as the match progresses and armies get bigger, the disparity between low point elite loadouts tends to lessen. I agree that execution changes everything, but I'm also for variety in choice. The way I see more 2pt options in the game without breaking the balance would be if we had a cap of 1 per loadout.
Let's see what the future brings!
Likely nothing in this regard, but hey! Theorycrafting.
PrimaGoosa
@AtlasDoomOcculta
Yeah, you're probably right re: 2/2 vs 2/3. And the more I think about balance in games, the more I think variety in choice is just an illusion if you actually want to win, especially in 1v1 scenarios. I'd be happy to see more elites for various point values, but my guess is that one would shine brighter than the other, and we'd be discussing "I can't choose X 2pt elite because Y is better in the scenarios that actually occur in the game, please fix".
So yeah, we'll see. I like playing around with new things, so if they release new elites, for me it's just an opportunity to hop in and explore stuff, which is always fun. Regardless of balance.
AtlasDoomOcculta
We're always going to have peeps complaining @PrimaGoosa
I don't have the time, predisposition or talent to be really competitive at this game. But I do like seeing a different mix of elites on the loading screen and going "oh, I never seen this one before, this could be interesting And educational"
It's not so much about winning for me and hopefully others,(it's always nice, don't get me wrong), but about playing a solid game and using or facing different stuff. I leave routine and a deep desire for optimisation at work.
Castiel
As strategies and play styles evolve so will elite choices. This is the perfect time to be trying out all kinds of things! Just make sure when you try them, you know why you are picking x, y or z and not trying to play like its your standard comp(as this is what leads to thoughts like x is useless compared to y).
KanKrusha
Doesn't summoning an elite reset the elite point timer? So the best time to summon immediately is after ticking over 2 points, otherwise you might have to wait till 3 points to call your two point elite???
AtlasDoomOcculta
Nope. You keep acquiring EPs regardless. Get a 4pt with 6 points left? Keep 2 points as change
CourtJester
A potential fix for this would be to make it so that the elites you choose are the ones you can resurrect when they die and the only ones that give you doctrine buffs, but you have access to all elites in game. And when one player unlocks the elites at the level 2 spot, the level 2 elites unlock for everyone. This would allow people who have strategies based on bringing out more expensive elites about to play those strategies without being forced to delay or abandon them by feeling the need to take a 2 pt elite while still giving them a counterplay option. It also keeps the elites you select meaningful.
And since im already typing... I also think you should be able to choose a doctrine for every single unit but only one doctrine per unit type unless one of the elites you select has a doctrine. This avoids the situation we're in now where a player's build could force you to abandon the units you took doctrines for which puts you at a significant disadvantage.
The idea with both of these is a way to preserve parity between opponents while still allowing choices of elites and doctrines to be meaningful.
Guziol
I'm getting sick and tired of having to play with deathwatch kill team in every team game or give up the match because enemy kill teams just roll over us in early game. Hands down best 2 pointer in game just because it can undeploy and change to rocket launcher, Biggest 'F you' is that they come in a drop pod. Opening with setup teams is a suicide against them. I guess gotta stick to tac/asm spam.
Evono
I like the fell Overall of the patch . Sadly the eldar are either forces t1 to banshee spam now. or Scout spam ... ( Hell i hate scout spam... )
Scrangos
He means like if the timer is 120s per point and you summon something at 2 elite points but with 30 seconds to the next point, at the point of summoning it would go to 0 with 120 seconds left.
I have no idea if this is true, I havnt paid attention to the timer. And I usually summon the second it becomes available.
RealdogXL
After extensive testing of the patch at the top of the 2v2 MMR. My teammate and I have found the patch has fundamentally changed the early and midgame. Requisition to Power ratio has improved the strength of the listening post and promotes as greedy as possible early game openings - often including upgrading multiple generators at the same time right off the bat using the (possible) glitch. [Possible* as it wasn't addressed in the hotfix.... maybe it's supposed to be there?]
Early game harassment has slowed in favor of a defensive early game into aggressive mid game in most of the upper level 2v2 matches thanks to the changes, which although not necessarily a bad thing it limits the diversity of strategies once available since requisition is now a given whether you upgrade any nodes of it or not. If you overcommit to the early game you should always lose against an equally skilled team given the strength of the multiple setup units (Loota's / Devestators / Reapers) anyone is now able to build. One Setup unit was able to be combated by a tricky worker wrapping them up, a multipronged attack, or a skillshot. But now with requisition bonus almost anybody worth their weight will have 2 or more of them before a rush is able to do any real damage. IMO these units have become overpowered not due to the balance change of units but due to the economic changes.
Other notes (coming from an orc player):
Trucks are now the support unit they were intended to be, I believe this change was good for the overall game although I feel changing the suicide shot to 60s cooldown may have been a bit overboard along with the damage nerf. Would rather see a slight increase in repetitive unit ejects.
Striking Scorpions have been nerfed a little too hard in comparison to the other available 2p and 3p elites; once a staple in the aggressive openers pre-patch it has come to the point where if a player chooses SS the game should swing in favor of the opposition nearly every time.
Banshee's / Assault Marines / Boys are in a pretty good spot unit balance wise, they feel a bit weak for the cost but I believe this is only due to the economic power / requisition ratio at the moment. It is VERY easy to survive with the ranged setup units and mass power generator upgrades until you have something better and these units are no longer useful mid to late game.
Kyre balance likely needs to be looked at. The abiltiy to have 3 charges and if your midgame squads are caught its almost certain death is very strong compared to every other 4,5,6,7p elite.
There are also a lot of very strong (read: OP and I'm sure will eventually be patched) units / tricks / abilities that have emerged since and have yet to be addressed. Many of these are still extremely underutilized and a few possibly counter-less at the moment. Excited for the future though and the next balance patch.
Wardemon
hmmm interesting.