Relic should of went either the doW2 route or DoW1 route with Dow 3 to build upon, instead of trying to please both player bases and in results displeasing everyone. So they definitely need to pick which game they want to follow and just abandon this idea of dow3.
It can be fixed tho, they just have to decide what they want to with this game either make it more like doW2 or Dow 1( my vote is for 2). just add to the doW2 formula for example, add wargear, add leveling system for elites and units, add skill trees for elites, tone down the elites and super abilities so they are not so overpowered, made base building better, a, fix cover system, bring back sync kills, and get rid of doctrine system, more game modes, and maps. They could also Add a Conquest and last stand mode to the game to help bring people back, then throw In 2 races into a expansion pack with a fleshed out dow 2 style campaign where you play as one of the new races (my vote would be get to play as the necrons or chaos and go on quests, and eventually gather a army to kill Gabriel angelos). That would fix the game and bring people back, I garutee it, I just doubt Sega will keep funding the game for relic to be able to do all that tho.
@Gorb said:
Also, I shouldn't have to say this, but personal attacks of any kind, even against people who find enjoyment in playing DoW III, is not allowed. Posts will be deleted, and repeat offenders warned.
Moderator Post
Really sorry if I wrote something wrong. I will try to do better lead discuscions.
I'll give my contribution to the discussion but keep in mind I'm new to DoW franchise. This is my first DoW game but I'm very experienced in RTS games, I play at GM level in StarCraft 2 and at the highest level of Age of Empires.
I actually enjoy DoW3 a lot. Period. Game is engaging, have depth and it is fun.
Despite enjoying a lot the game, I've negativated the game on steam because I had the feeling game was very incomplete and clunky on launch (Played since day 1), specially on the UI side of things, lacking a lot of details which are extremely important in RTS (like the Doctrines, I mean wtf, how can they have ZERO info about the numbers they improve???) and options to customize the game for the player.
Edit: I've also felt that the game doesn't bring enough content to the table for the price they charged.
You know what terrifies me most out of all this? Is the fact that Relic doesn't say A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G at all... I don't agree with people that game is dead, but it obviously goes downhill and situation is dire. Me, and another hundreds of players still interested in DOW III would VERY appreciate if Relic tell us honestly how bad or good things are, what are they going to do or not to do about this. I think we deserve that much. If they don't want to stir things up, something blog post with locked comments will suffice, because silence makes things worse, that's for sure.
I'm glad they actively working on fixing bugs and recent balance patch is right way to go, but we really need to know what's going on... We can only make wild assumptions now which don't help nothing.
@Seizon said:
I'll give my contribution to the discussion but keep in mind I'm new to DoW franchise. This is my first DoW game but I'm very experienced in RTS games, I play at GM level in StarCraft 2 and at the highest level of Age of Empires.
I actually enjoy DoW3 a lot. Period. Game is engaging, have depth and it is fun.
Despite enjoying a lot the game, I've negativated the game on steam because I had the feeling game was very incomplete and clunky on launch (Played since day 1), specially on the UI side of things, lacking a lot of details which are extremely important in RTS (like the Doctrines, I mean wtf, how can they have ZERO info about the numbers they improve???) and options to customize the game for the player.
Hmmmmm, so you like the game, but you also see the game's flaws?
Then that's okay. I too liked its Open Beta, but I also understand that this is not a game without flaws, like one game mode and strange animations like Gabriel's jump, but I eventually got used to them.
Overall, I'm glad that you actually enjoy the game, while also knowing that this isn't perfect game.
@MyBossMyHero said:
Seams like we can only hope that in future a decent studio will pick up the Warhammer 40k licence to create a RTS.
Cause Relic can go to hell.
Relic did create a RTS, it just differed from their previous RTS games. No matter how much ARCH and others claim it's a MOBA, doesn't make it true.
I agree, it's not a MOBA in that sense, but it feels like a MOBA to many and to me it is because of the Core Game Design.
As I said in other posts- the flaw in more in line with selecting options before the match vs. more options being available to select during the match.
Most of know we got DOTA from WC 3 that had heroes introduced successfully on top of a classic RTS formula and it worked.
So again it's more the flaw in the overall game design that is turning people off and away.
The game gets old and stale for many because you just don't have as much Strategy (Options) in your RT-Strategy Formula (Game-Design)
Picture the following changes on top of the SC 2 / WC 3 meta RTS experience of DOW 3.
1) Army Doctrines available in each match in a Tech Tree System like COH-One (12 per tree)
2) All Elite Units available in each match divided into (HQ, Elite, Colossal) only 1 each of the HQ but more than 1 each of the others.
3) Stronger Line Units
4) More Modes (VP, Annihilation); these should of been first.
5) Buildings to occupy as an additional cover mechanic.
The Building Mechanic is HUGE IMO; play DOW 3 on the fan made Open Maps vs. the more Lane Focused Maps with lots of choke points and it is a "mass of a mess of spamming units." Even if each building (regardless of the # of floors) was designed where the Units appeared on the open top roof only it would still add so much more strategy to your RT-Strategy game.
@Strangequark said:
and I'm also genuinely concerned about the player number dip, cause it hasn't dropped that many or shifted that hard in a couple of weeks now, its just been a steady slow bleed with little bumps on weekends, and it feels like there might have been a whole region that was having issues getting into the game either due to ISP's or steam servers.
I think it has more to do that Asian is totally dead and they stopped playing
THe waiting for a match in asia are over 30 minutes.
Yeah but its not their prime time, that dip in players is hitting during EU primetime, like right now. It seems more like one of the countries in the EU was having connection issues, or steam had server issues. There's no way 500 regular players just stood up on the same day and said, "Yep that's enough for me."
People move to other games and most people who finish the campaign say good bye to the game.
If someone has to be blamed its Relic
1.) Making DoW 3 a game that no 1 wanted
2.) disappointing DoW 1 and DoW 2 fans
3.) Disappointing Last Stand Fans
4.) 0 ++heresy redacted++ commincation with the players or even talking on the forums in what state the game is and what are the future plans.
People like to mention Rainbow Six: Siege here often.
This game has always over 10k people and many more on Uplay.
The communication with the playerbase was much better with how they explained and support the players.
Relic is just ++heresy redacted++ silent and literally shitting with it on every DoW fan.
@Stoner said:
You know what terrifies me most out of all this? Is the fact that Relic doesn't say A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G at all... I don't agree with people that game is dead, but it obviously goes downhill and situation is dire. Me, and another hundreds of players still interested in DOW III would VERY appreciate if Relic tell us honestly how bad or good things are, what are they going to do or not to do about this. I think we deserve that much. If they don't want to stir things up, something blog post with locked comments will suffice, because silence makes things worse, that's for sure.
I'm glad they actively working on fixing bugs and recent balance patch is right way to go, but we really need to know what's going on... We can only make wild assumptions now which don't help nothing.
I would also like that they stop being silent because its ++heresy redacted++ crazy the house is burning and Relic is pretending like nothing is going on.
My best guess is that SEGA will probably shut them down and that there will be layoffs at RELIC.
@Asuryan said:
I still believe that this game can prevail. It only needs strong support, good advertisment, and believing community. ^_^
Still doubt, that we will see new content. However we can always hope.
Nevertheless, I'll gladly buy this game. Even if it is fail for most, I enjoyed its open beta, so I will play this game on skirmish too.
will, when? lol the game got released long ago, why are you up to this day saying you will buy it instead of ++heresy redacted++ buying it?
Well to be honest, I want to buy this game, but currently I can't afford it at the moment. Good thing however, that the game supports Polish language, so I can buy it a local shops, still the price is huge at the moment.
However for a opportunity day, like Name Day or Birthday will be excellent. In the meantime if Dow3 will sold weakly, I hope that it will be cheaper, but I will buy it regardless when I will be able to afford it.
@Ragrot said:
I've seen plenty of these posts since ARCH did his video and it's sad to see that so many people act like lemmings and treat his videos and his opinions like he is the god-emperor himself. He compared to DOW3 to COH and tries to make correlations between the two games' users when they aren't even the same IP. He doesn't even have a legitimate case for the game being dead when comparing these two games. You can look up the numbers for DOW and DOW2 and see the the game clearly isn't dead, it's just normal DOW user numbers. Yes, the numbers have declined sooner than usual for a DOW game, but you can see a similar decline in other DOW games upon their first initial non-expansion releases where the games are at their barest. Obviously this isn't an excuse, but the game will pick up again when Relic adds more content. Unfortunately, this is just the age in which we live, where we have to wait several months after a games release to get the content we paid for and have to buy DLC to get it. The fact stands that DOW2 got similar hate when it was released because of changes made from DOW and had similar user issues until several months later when they released Last Stand right before the Chaos Rising expansion.
Even if you ignore him but most people left the game in less then a month.
Its just simple the game is ++heresy redacted++ and people don't like to waste time with ++heresy redacted++.
Seams like we can only hope that in future a decent studio will pick up the Warhammer 40k licence to create a RTS.
Cause Relic can go to hell.
And again there are a lot reasons why people left without impling the game is bad. We discussed that over and over again since the first doom sayer appear a few days after launch.
@Ragrot said:
I've seen plenty of these posts since ARCH did his video and it's sad to see that so many people act like lemmings and treat his videos and his opinions like he is the god-emperor himself. He compared to DOW3 to COH and tries to make correlations between the two games' users when they aren't even the same IP. He doesn't even have a legitimate case for the game being dead when comparing these two games. You can look up the numbers for DOW and DOW2 and see the the game clearly isn't dead, it's just normal DOW user numbers. Yes, the numbers have declined sooner than usual for a DOW game, but you can see a similar decline in other DOW games upon their first initial non-expansion releases where the games are at their barest. Obviously this isn't an excuse, but the game will pick up again when Relic adds more content. Unfortunately, this is just the age in which we live, where we have to wait several months after a games release to get the content we paid for and have to buy DLC to get it. The fact stands that DOW2 got similar hate when it was released because of changes made from DOW and had similar user issues until several months later when they released Last Stand right before the Chaos Rising expansion.
Even if you ignore him but most people left the game in less then a month.
Its just simple the game is ++heresy redacted++ and people don't like to waste time with ++heresy redacted++.
Seams like we can only hope that in future a decent studio will pick up the Warhammer 40k licence to create a RTS.
Cause Relic can go to hell.
And again there are a lot reasons why people left without impling the game is bad. We discussed that over and over again since the first doom sayer appear a few days after launch.
The most common reason why people leave the game is its just bad and they don't have interest to play it anymore and use the time to play other games.
Its simple as that.
Why you think 99% of players left Evolve or Battleborn?
@Strangequark said:
Am I looking at the numbers right? Did we just bleed 500 players in a single day this far into game life. I know 500 doesn't seem that much, but its a full 25% of peak population for the game currently. 1700 GMT has been the typical crest (EU prime time) but I'm only seeing 1500 players today. Is there a region down? That seems like an awful lot to just vanish over night.
You must have such a sad life that this is the only thing you are interestet.
What are you doing here? Allways playing the false prophet and doom sayer? Do you have no hobbys? No friends?
Look i dont like dow2. I bought it and i found it terrible. Did you see me hating and ranting all the time in the forum? No! And why? Cause i prefer do do things that i like and that are fun. So everyone around here no that you hate the game and you really really REALLY want to see it die to dance on the grave. Also everybody see your fanatic fixation on meaningless peak numbers ignoring everything that dont fit in your picture of the world.
But i dont understand why are you do that? Is there nothing more in your life?
Larkis, ya done goofed. You've been on my back in numerous threads putting what you "think" my motivations are, and I'll tell you right up front. You have gotten them dead wrong every time. Want to see why I'm so active on this forum? Let me give you a link to something I've been working on and piecing together as I've read, and prodded at the player base to issues the game has, and everyone's opinions on each issue. Now please, if you keep this up I'm just gonna start reporting you each time you do it. I'm pretty fricken tired of it. https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/13479/real-talk-about-doctrines-and-elites-relic#latest
So thats your great plan? Force player to make some more klicks and include all Elites and all Doctrines in the game so that snowballing is much easier and elite balancing not existent anymore? Nice!
Nobody with half a brain or less takes ArchWarhammer seriously anymore when it comes to the games. He is pretentious scum. He is one of the people that caused a lot of the hate towards the game before anyone even had the facts and even continues to do so despite "washing my hands of it".
For someone who makes a living off of the lore, series and games; to have so thoroughly turned community against something that we all love, just tells me the kind of person he really is. If it doesn't go his way, how dare it go any other way.
You can hear the venom in his voice as he talks. I'd rather listen to puppies dying than listen to his ear bleeding voice for another second.
Yes relic made some questionable decisions, but are we to just abandon ship because of them? Or stay and show our support and assist them in taking the game to the right direction.
He is entitled to his opinions, as ++heresy redacted++ as they are. But it rubs me the wrong way, knowing he is making money off of nostolgia blinded hatred.
On topic at hand. Of course the numbers dropped. It's to be expected. Very few games actually keep the numbers of players at release let alone increase them. At it's core Warhammer has always had a solid player base years after the games. It's taken several years to get another DoW game and i'm not about to give up on it.
So take your doomsaying elsewhere, because honestly, your thread shouldn't even be attracting attention. You obviously don't care about the game, but to come here and post charts "THE GAME IS DEAD!!!!!" just goes to show you as a person as well. Like Arch, vile and repulsive. Except he gets paid for it, so it just makes you look like such a try hard
You don't even give direction or insight into what you feel is wrong with the game, or how it can be improved. It's just a poor opinion post. Nothing more.
All the best to you @HiveMind. But do try your best to stay signed off permanently. Wont miss you
@Alatar_Xarxes said:
Nobody with half a brain or less takes ArchWarhammer seriously anymore when it comes to the games. He is pretentious scum. He is one of the people that caused a lot of the hate towards the game before anyone even had the facts and even continues to do so despite "washing my hands of it".
For someone who makes a living off of the lore, series and games; to have so thoroughly turned community against something that we all love, just tells me the kind of person he really is. If it doesn't go his way, how dare it go any other way.
You can hear the venom in his voice as he talks. I'd rather listen to puppies dying than listen to his ear bleeding voice for another second.
Yes relic made some questionable decisions, but are we to just abandon ship because of them? Or stay and show our support and assist them in taking the game to the right direction.
He is entitled to his opinions, as ++heresy redacted++ as they are. But it rubs me the wrong way, knowing he is making money off of nostolgia blinded hatred.
On topic at hand. Of course the numbers dropped. It's to be expected. Very few games actually keep the numbers of players at release let alone increase them. At it's core Warhammer has always had a solid player base years after the games. It's taken several years to get another DoW game and i'm not about to give up on it.
So take your doomsaying elsewhere, because honestly, your thread shouldn't even be attracting attention. You obviously don't care about the game, but to come here and post charts "THE GAME IS DEAD!!!!!" just goes to show you as a person as well. Like Arch, vile and repulsive. Except he gets paid for it, so it just makes you look like such a try hard
You don't even give direction or insight into what you feel is wrong with the game, or how it can be improved. It's just a poor opinion post. Nothing more.
All the best to you @HiveMind. But do try your best to stay signed off permanently. Wont miss you
+1, dude.
Personally I too doubted Dow3 success, but still I like this game.
@Strangequark said:
Am I looking at the numbers right? Did we just bleed 500 players in a single day this far into game life. I know 500 doesn't seem that much, but its a full 25% of peak population for the game currently. 1700 GMT has been the typical crest (EU prime time) but I'm only seeing 1500 players today. Is there a region down? That seems like an awful lot to just vanish over night.
You must have such a sad life that this is the only thing you are interestet.
What are you doing here? Allways playing the false prophet and doom sayer? Do you have no hobbys? No friends?
Look i dont like dow2. I bought it and i found it terrible. Did you see me hating and ranting all the time in the forum? No! And why? Cause i prefer do do things that i like and that are fun. So everyone around here no that you hate the game and you really really REALLY want to see it die to dance on the grave. Also everybody see your fanatic fixation on meaningless peak numbers ignoring everything that dont fit in your picture of the world.
But i dont understand why are you do that? Is there nothing more in your life?
Larkis, ya done goofed. You've been on my back in numerous threads putting what you "think" my motivations are, and I'll tell you right up front. You have gotten them dead wrong every time. Want to see why I'm so active on this forum? Let me give you a link to something I've been working on and piecing together as I've read, and prodded at the player base to issues the game has, and everyone's opinions on each issue. Now please, if you keep this up I'm just gonna start reporting you each time you do it. I'm pretty fricken tired of it. https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/13479/real-talk-about-doctrines-and-elites-relic#latest
So thats your great plan? Force player to make some more klicks and include all Elites and all Doctrines in the game so that snowballing is much easier and elite balancing not existent anymore? Nice!
You didn't read it, or if you did read it, you didn't understand it. It's not about clicks, its about removing doctrines from the start of the match, and moving them into buildings. You still get the same number of doctrines, and the same number of elites, the difference is you get to pick your 3 elites, and 6 doctrines in the game instead of before, with 3 different buildings per race. More base building, early game non-doctrine line units to help with spam and snowball, with tech options balanced against those. How did you get that you'd have all doctrines and elites to pick? You have them all available to pick, but I was pretty clear, 3 elites, still purchased with elite points, and 2 doctrines per tier building. That's as far as I can dumb it down for ya. You helped add anything other than to come on here and personally attack posters?
You didn't read it, or if you did read it, you didn't understand it. It's not about clicks, its about removing doctrines from the start of the match, and moving them into buildings. You still get the same number of doctrines, and the same number of elites, the difference is you get to pick your 3 elites, and 6 doctrines in the game instead of before, with 3 different buildings per race. More base building, early game non-doctrine line units to help with spam and snowball, with tech options balanced against those. How did you get that you'd have all doctrines and elites to pick? You have them all available to pick, but I was pretty clear, 3 elites, still purchased with elite points, and 2 doctrines per tier building. That's as far as I can dumb it down for ya. You helped add anything other than to come on here and personally attack posters?
This sounds like a great idea to be honest, I really hate the 'pick your elites and doctrines' thing like some sort of dumb create-a-class, and that you can see what your enemies have in loading screen. Just my 2 cents but I really miss building my plasma generators...
@Alatar_Xarxes said:
Nobody with half a brain or less takes ArchWarhammer seriously anymore when it comes to the games. He is pretentious scum. He is one of the people that caused a lot of the hate towards the game before anyone even had the facts and even continues to do so despite "washing my hands of it".
For someone who makes a living off of the lore, series and games; to have so thoroughly turned community against something that we all love, just tells me the kind of person he really is. If it doesn't go his way, how dare it go any other way.
You can hear the venom in his voice as he talks. I'd rather listen to puppies dying than listen to his ear bleeding voice for another second.
Yes relic made some questionable decisions, but are we to just abandon ship because of them? Or stay and show our support and assist them in taking the game to the right direction.
He is entitled to his opinions, as ++heresy redacted++ as they are. But it rubs me the wrong way, knowing he is making money off of nostolgia blinded hatred.
On topic at hand. Of course the numbers dropped. It's to be expected. Very few games actually keep the numbers of players at release let alone increase them. At it's core Warhammer has always had a solid player base years after the games. It's taken several years to get another DoW game and i'm not about to give up on it.
So take your doomsaying elsewhere, because honestly, your thread shouldn't even be attracting attention. You obviously don't care about the game, but to come here and post charts "THE GAME IS DEAD!!!!!" just goes to show you as a person as well. Like Arch, vile and repulsive. Except he gets paid for it, so it just makes you look like such a try hard
You don't even give direction or insight into what you feel is wrong with the game, or how it can be improved. It's just a poor opinion post. Nothing more.
All the best to you @HiveMind. But do try your best to stay signed off permanently. Wont miss you
Actually Arch is spot on with his comments, You are just being emotional as you don't like the way he speaks. Yes, he feels vindicated and so is slightly smug about that, although at least he is honest about it.
Also to say Arch singlehandedly turned the community against the game and lead to its demise is just ridiculous. More like he was a hub for those who were dissatisfied with the game. I for one had never heard of him before this, but found myself agreeing with a video which someone linked on these forums.
Stop looking to blame and scapegoat anyone other than Relic and their bad decisions.
@Strangequark said:
You didn't read it, or if you did read it, you didn't understand it. It's not about clicks, its about removing doctrines from the start of the match, and moving them into buildings. You still get the same number of doctrines, and the same number of elites, the difference is you get to pick your 3 elites, and 6 doctrines in the game instead of before, with 3 different buildings per race. More base building, early game non-doctrine line units to help with spam and snowball, with tech options balanced against those. How did you get that you'd have all doctrines and elites to pick? You have them all available to pick, but I was pretty clear, 3 elites, still purchased with elite points, and 2 doctrines per tier building. That's as far as I can dumb it down for ya. You helped add anything other than to come on here and personally attack posters?
Ok think i didnt read it very well last time. That sound like a good idea indeed.
So thats your great plan? Force player to make some more klicks and include all Elites and all Doctrines in the game so that snowballing is much easier and elite balancing not existent anymore? Nice!
It is a great plan; and it would be better than nice, it would be Awesome!
Adding the AD in game via building upgrades might be more feasible, but I still love the COH 1 Tech Tree Idea, but this might be too drastic of a change.
You want to have more strategy during the match / in-game which is why so many RTS games can be a lot of fun. The more options and avenues of strategy you have during each match the more fun it will be- it's that simple. These options on top of good Pacing & a good Resource Mechanic and you generally have a winner IMO. Now we are literally limited before we even begin a match with DOW 3's Game Design.
This is my suggestion:
1) Army Doctrines available in each match in a Tech Tree System like COH-One (12 per tree)
2) All Elite Units available in each match divided into (HQ, Elite, Colossal) only 1 each of the HQ but more than 1 each of the others.
3) Stronger Line Units
4) More Modes (VP, Annihilation); these should of been first.
5) Buildings to occupy as an additional cover mechanic.
Each HQ, Elite, Colossal will cost "Elite, Requisition, and Power" and yes they can be balanced all being available in game.
But you need stronger Line Units for that and this goes again the Core Game Design as I mentioned in previous posts.
@RealdogXL said:> I agree, all these posts do nothing but demoralize everyone.
So do the Steam player numbers. That's why it keeps getting brought up.
@Draconix said:> So by your logic it would be best if there any new wasn't RTS after Starcraft and other big franschises anymore? Pity.
That's a bizarre thought. How did you manage to come to that conclusion from my comment?
My logic is that there's no point in copying existing franchises unless you're going to do offer something better. If you're not going to be better than the established competition, you're wasting your time and money.
@Draconix said:> Oh and one more thing: Real Gamer doesn't judge games though someone's opinion or review, but by own experience. And judges the games as a own stand-alone titles, not compares them.
Your comments are funny. Real Gamer? Is that some sort of video-game forum street cred? I couldn't care less.
Pretty dead... Good luck finding a 3v3 match within a reasonable timeframe. What are the dev's doing? How come they have addressed nothing or responded to our concerns? The population dropped like a rock.
@RealdogXL said:> I agree, all these posts do nothing but demoralize everyone.
So do the Steam player numbers. That's why it keeps getting brought up.
I'm still finding games, all hours, any day - there isn't anything looking at the numbers and being sad will do. Trying our best to be helpful, critical but accepting and nontoxic community members will keep those that are here; hopefully we all become a tighter nit group and upon steam sales maybe more will join and grow the multiplayer scene more.
It is hard to discuss the people leaving the game before discuss the game itself. A topic I personally think hasn’t been talk enough or in a quality way since the game released.
Why make dawn of war3? Current game status without 40k title will defiantly had hard time to break 100,000 sales. Stopped calling it AAA title, I fail to see any quality control in anyway near an AAA standard. Why people has this “unfinished product” feeling, because there are problem here and there everywhere. Why there is no camera rotation? It’s equal to an certain amount of working time for a programmer. To another word, overall budget, because the limited programmer time needs to be focused on more pressing issues that make the game flow. And every none essential part of that game make former Dow series great such as BGM, voice acting all get cut. Everything toward a single object, to save budget on the final product. A typical small studio move.
And it’s reflect on the game design as well. It does have some sparking idea, such as elite system, but clearly designer don’t have any time to spare to test the idea. All of their idea is not been tested by actually player, or designer who actually are fan of his own game. To compare their so call new innovative design in general, in term of battle pace, expansion, skirmish, depth of play, Warcraft3 an almost 20 years old game or mother of all moba game feel way more elegant in those area.
IMO, dow2 is focus more on hardcore player where even you sunk 8000r into the game, if you don’t understand it, you will still be a ++heresy redacted++. Dow1 on the other hand is focus more on the general 40k population with more stuff to offer from the lore, to cover the most of the people who are into 40k to get blast each other with 40k toys. But both game in core are the same, a 40k game to represent 40k battle in the best way Relic understand or popular culture perceived, combine with top of the line quality control, such as BGM, Voice acting, engaging animation etc. and that is why I don’t believe even dow3 be a remake of any of the previous game maybe it wouldn’t be as bad as now but it won’t reach the height of any of the previous game, simply because lack of the budgets.
I think the game is beyond repair from the start, not because smaller issues people love to spend time to debut, but overall direction they chose is wrong, it’s not a RTS of the years but more of a money grab for relic to regain its strength or die trying.
@greedogre said:
It is hard to discuss the people leaving the game before discuss the game itself. A topic I personally think hasn’t been talk enough or in a quality way since the game released.
Why make dawn of war3? Current game status without 40k title will defiantly had hard time to break 100,000 sales. Stopped calling it AAA title, I fail to see any quality control in anyway near an AAA standard. Why people has this “unfinished product” feeling, because there are problem here and there everywhere. Why there is no camera rotation? It’s equal to an certain amount of working time for a programmer. To another word, overall budget, because the limited programmer time needs to be focused on more pressing issues that make the game flow. And every none essential part of that game make former Dow series great such as BGM, voice acting all get cut. Everything toward a single object, to save budget on the final product. A typical small studio move.
And it’s reflect on the game design as well. It does have some sparking idea, such as elite system, but clearly designer don’t have any time to spare to test the idea. All of their idea is not been tested by actually player, or designer who actually are fan of his own game. To compare their so call new innovative design in general, in term of battle pace, expansion, skirmish, depth of play, Warcraft3 an almost 20 years old game or mother of all moba game feel way more elegant in those area.
IMO, dow2 is focus more on hardcore player where even you sunk 8000r into the game, if you don’t understand it, you will still be a ++heresy redacted++. Dow1 on the other hand is focus more on the general 40k population with more stuff to offer from the lore, to cover the most of the people who are into 40k to get blast each other with 40k toys. But both game in core are the same, a 40k game to represent 40k battle in the best way Relic understand or popular culture perceived, combine with top of the line quality control, such as BGM, Voice acting, engaging animation etc. and that is why I don’t believe even dow3 be a remake of any of the previous game maybe it wouldn’t be as bad as now but it won’t reach the height of any of the previous game, simply because lack of the budgets.
I think the game is beyond repair from the start, not because smaller issues people love to spend time to debut, but overall direction they chose is wrong, it’s not a RTS of the years but more of a money grab for relic to regain its strength or die trying.
Just the first part here for me, it gets called a AAA title, because it had a AAA pricetag. That's not the gamers fault for labeling it so, that's what a AAA pricetag is 60 bones, or 40 pounds.
@Bitterman said:
Pretty dead... Good luck finding a 3v3 match within a reasonable timeframe. What are the dev's doing? How come they have addressed nothing or responded to our concerns? The population dropped like a rock.
Have no oroblems finding a 3vs3 in seconds. What is a reasonable timeframe for you?
@greedogre said:
It is hard to discuss the people leaving the game before discuss the game itself. A topic I personally think hasn’t been talk enough or in a quality way since the game released.
Why make dawn of war3? Current game status without 40k title will defiantly had hard time to break 100,000 sales. Stopped calling it AAA title, I fail to see any quality control in anyway near an AAA standard. Why people has this “unfinished product” feeling, because there are problem here and there everywhere. Why there is no camera rotation? It’s equal to an certain amount of working time for a programmer. To another word, overall budget, because the limited programmer time needs to be focused on more pressing issues that make the game flow. And every none essential part of that game make former Dow series great such as BGM, voice acting all get cut. Everything toward a single object, to save budget on the final product. A typical small studio move.
And it’s reflect on the game design as well. It does have some sparking idea, such as elite system, but clearly designer don’t have any time to spare to test the idea. All of their idea is not been tested by actually player, or designer who actually are fan of his own game. To compare their so call new innovative design in general, in term of battle pace, expansion, skirmish, depth of play, Warcraft3 an almost 20 years old game or mother of all moba game feel way more elegant in those area.
IMO, dow2 is focus more on hardcore player where even you sunk 8000r into the game, if you don’t understand it, you will still be a ++heresy redacted++. Dow1 on the other hand is focus more on the general 40k population with more stuff to offer from the lore, to cover the most of the people who are into 40k to get blast each other with 40k toys. But both game in core are the same, a 40k game to represent 40k battle in the best way Relic understand or popular culture perceived, combine with top of the line quality control, such as BGM, Voice acting, engaging animation etc. and that is why I don’t believe even dow3 be a remake of any of the previous game maybe it wouldn’t be as bad as now but it won’t reach the height of any of the previous game, simply because lack of the budgets.
I think the game is beyond repair from the start, not because smaller issues people love to spend time to debut, but overall direction they chose is wrong, it’s not a RTS of the years but more of a money grab for relic to regain its strength or die trying.
Do you have played DOW1 frpm day one? Or only the polished Version with a lot Addons after years?
DoW1 had a lot problems when they start. Campaign was mostly unplayable. In the first Mission you dont get controll over the imperial army. In the 4th mission (i think) when you first get the whirlwinds, the whirlwinds was not able to shoot on the waaagh tower.
CSM was mostly a clone of SM.
Most players was really upset that you only could play stupid Marines in the Campaign.
Balance was realky bad in multiplayer.
KI was cheating a lot abd even could see invisible units, make them useless.
There was no way to learn other factions, you learn alot over marines in campaign. Want to play another race? Good look finding how. There was no youtube how-tos this days.
The only thing that sold the game was the graphic and animations.
It got great overtime. But that was other times the. People was patient and dont overreact over every peace of ++heresy redacted++.
@MrBenis said:
Oh so posting charts and stats which are quite literally facts which would stand in a court, are just opinions, in your opinion. It's like I'm taking crazy pills.
Should we just ignore the fact he has been hating on the game since it was announced? He is indirectly responsible for the flak this game gets. And for that, I can't take him seriously whatsoever. He was biased from the start, and his followers follow like sheep.
He's like the Hivemind and his followers the mindless Tyranid swarm.
We should ignore the fact that he hated on the game before launch, because his feelings aren't relevant to the discussion of a 90% fall in playercount.
everygame have a 90% fall in playercount stupid.
You are circumventing the discussion that not all games lose 90% in less than 60 days, other than shitty ones like slaughtering grounds.
Sadly, this game is dead at the moment, but still I like it, so I will play it when I will be able to afford it to buy.
But it seems there is a more harsh truth - If Relic gets closed, then there will be probably no more WH40K RTS game, and if then it won't be probably as great as Dow1. To be honest, RTS became now a niche genre, even big companies seems are not interested in this genre.
Despite that harsh truth, I'm glad that we gotted Dow3 ever. It is not a perfect game for most of us, of course but still, for me it is actually better than have nothing.
You can disagree with me, but you should at least respect that.
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Comments
Alchemist13
Relic should of went either the doW2 route or DoW1 route with Dow 3 to build upon, instead of trying to please both player bases and in results displeasing everyone. So they definitely need to pick which game they want to follow and just abandon this idea of dow3.
It can be fixed tho, they just have to decide what they want to with this game either make it more like doW2 or Dow 1( my vote is for 2). just add to the doW2 formula for example, add wargear, add leveling system for elites and units, add skill trees for elites, tone down the elites and super abilities so they are not so overpowered, made base building better, a, fix cover system, bring back sync kills, and get rid of doctrine system, more game modes, and maps. They could also Add a Conquest and last stand mode to the game to help bring people back, then throw In 2 races into a expansion pack with a fleshed out dow 2 style campaign where you play as one of the new races (my vote would be get to play as the necrons or chaos and go on quests, and eventually gather a army to kill Gabriel angelos). That would fix the game and bring people back, I garutee it, I just doubt Sega will keep funding the game for relic to be able to do all that tho.
Draconix
Really sorry if I wrote something wrong. I will try to do better lead discuscions.
Seizon
I'll give my contribution to the discussion but keep in mind I'm new to DoW franchise. This is my first DoW game but I'm very experienced in RTS games, I play at GM level in StarCraft 2 and at the highest level of Age of Empires.
I actually enjoy DoW3 a lot. Period. Game is engaging, have depth and it is fun.
Despite enjoying a lot the game, I've negativated the game on steam because I had the feeling game was very incomplete and clunky on launch (Played since day 1), specially on the UI side of things, lacking a lot of details which are extremely important in RTS (like the Doctrines, I mean wtf, how can they have ZERO info about the numbers they improve???) and options to customize the game for the player.
Edit: I've also felt that the game doesn't bring enough content to the table for the price they charged.
Stoner
You know what terrifies me most out of all this? Is the fact that Relic doesn't say A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G at all... I don't agree with people that game is dead, but it obviously goes downhill and situation is dire. Me, and another hundreds of players still interested in DOW III would VERY appreciate if Relic tell us honestly how bad or good things are, what are they going to do or not to do about this. I think we deserve that much. If they don't want to stir things up, something blog post with locked comments will suffice, because silence makes things worse, that's for sure.
I'm glad they actively working on fixing bugs and recent balance patch is right way to go, but we really need to know what's going on... We can only make wild assumptions now which don't help nothing.
Draconix
Hmmmmm, so you like the game, but you also see the game's flaws?
Then that's okay. I too liked its Open Beta, but I also understand that this is not a game without flaws, like one game mode and strange animations like Gabriel's jump, but I eventually got used to them.
Overall, I'm glad that you actually enjoy the game, while also knowing that this isn't perfect game.
KPMaker
I agree, it's not a MOBA in that sense, but it feels like a MOBA to many and to me it is because of the Core Game Design.
As I said in other posts- the flaw in more in line with selecting options before the match vs. more options being available to select during the match.
Most of know we got DOTA from WC 3 that had heroes introduced successfully on top of a classic RTS formula and it worked.
So again it's more the flaw in the overall game design that is turning people off and away.
The game gets old and stale for many because you just don't have as much Strategy (Options) in your RT-Strategy Formula (Game-Design)
Picture the following changes on top of the SC 2 / WC 3 meta RTS experience of DOW 3.
1) Army Doctrines available in each match in a Tech Tree System like COH-One (12 per tree)
2) All Elite Units available in each match divided into (HQ, Elite, Colossal) only 1 each of the HQ but more than 1 each of the others.
3) Stronger Line Units
4) More Modes (VP, Annihilation); these should of been first.
5) Buildings to occupy as an additional cover mechanic.
The Building Mechanic is HUGE IMO; play DOW 3 on the fan made Open Maps vs. the more Lane Focused Maps with lots of choke points and it is a "mass of a mess of spamming units." Even if each building (regardless of the # of floors) was designed where the Units appeared on the open top roof only it would still add so much more strategy to your RT-Strategy game.
MyBossMyHero
People move to other games and most people who finish the campaign say good bye to the game.
If someone has to be blamed its Relic
1.) Making DoW 3 a game that no 1 wanted
2.) disappointing DoW 1 and DoW 2 fans
3.) Disappointing Last Stand Fans
4.) 0 ++heresy redacted++ commincation with the players or even talking on the forums in what state the game is and what are the future plans.
People like to mention Rainbow Six: Siege here often.
This game has always over 10k people and many more on Uplay.
The communication with the playerbase was much better with how they explained and support the players.
Relic is just ++heresy redacted++ silent and literally shitting with it on every DoW fan.
MyBossMyHero
I would also like that they stop being silent because its ++heresy redacted++ crazy the house is burning and Relic is pretending like nothing is going on.
My best guess is that SEGA will probably shut them down and that there will be layoffs at RELIC.
Draconix
Well to be honest, I want to buy this game, but currently I can't afford it at the moment. Good thing however, that the game supports Polish language, so I can buy it a local shops, still the price is huge at the moment.
However for a opportunity day, like Name Day or Birthday will be excellent. In the meantime if Dow3 will sold weakly, I hope that it will be cheaper, but I will buy it regardless when I will be able to afford it.
Larkis
And again there are a lot reasons why people left without impling the game is bad. We discussed that over and over again since the first doom sayer appear a few days after launch.
MyBossMyHero
The most common reason why people leave the game is its just bad and they don't have interest to play it anymore and use the time to play other games.
Its simple as that.
Why you think 99% of players left Evolve or Battleborn?
Larkis
So thats your great plan? Force player to make some more klicks and include all Elites and all Doctrines in the game so that snowballing is much easier and elite balancing not existent anymore? Nice!
Alatar_Xarxes
Nobody with half a brain or less takes ArchWarhammer seriously anymore when it comes to the games. He is pretentious scum. He is one of the people that caused a lot of the hate towards the game before anyone even had the facts and even continues to do so despite "washing my hands of it".
For someone who makes a living off of the lore, series and games; to have so thoroughly turned community against something that we all love, just tells me the kind of person he really is. If it doesn't go his way, how dare it go any other way.
You can hear the venom in his voice as he talks. I'd rather listen to puppies dying than listen to his ear bleeding voice for another second.
Yes relic made some questionable decisions, but are we to just abandon ship because of them? Or stay and show our support and assist them in taking the game to the right direction.
He is entitled to his opinions, as ++heresy redacted++ as they are. But it rubs me the wrong way, knowing he is making money off of nostolgia blinded hatred.
On topic at hand. Of course the numbers dropped. It's to be expected. Very few games actually keep the numbers of players at release let alone increase them. At it's core Warhammer has always had a solid player base years after the games. It's taken several years to get another DoW game and i'm not about to give up on it.
So take your doomsaying elsewhere, because honestly, your thread shouldn't even be attracting attention. You obviously don't care about the game, but to come here and post charts "THE GAME IS DEAD!!!!!" just goes to show you as a person as well. Like Arch, vile and repulsive. Except he gets paid for it, so it just makes you look like such a try hard
You don't even give direction or insight into what you feel is wrong with the game, or how it can be improved. It's just a poor opinion post. Nothing more.
All the best to you @HiveMind. But do try your best to stay signed off permanently. Wont miss you
Draconix
+1, dude.
Personally I too doubted Dow3 success, but still I like this game.
Strangequark
You didn't read it, or if you did read it, you didn't understand it. It's not about clicks, its about removing doctrines from the start of the match, and moving them into buildings. You still get the same number of doctrines, and the same number of elites, the difference is you get to pick your 3 elites, and 6 doctrines in the game instead of before, with 3 different buildings per race. More base building, early game non-doctrine line units to help with spam and snowball, with tech options balanced against those. How did you get that you'd have all doctrines and elites to pick? You have them all available to pick, but I was pretty clear, 3 elites, still purchased with elite points, and 2 doctrines per tier building. That's as far as I can dumb it down for ya. You helped add anything other than to come on here and personally attack posters?
Ironheart
This sounds like a great idea to be honest, I really hate the 'pick your elites and doctrines' thing like some sort of dumb create-a-class, and that you can see what your enemies have in loading screen. Just my 2 cents but I really miss building my plasma generators...
DeathAttacker
Actually Arch is spot on with his comments, You are just being emotional as you don't like the way he speaks. Yes, he feels vindicated and so is slightly smug about that, although at least he is honest about it.
Also to say Arch singlehandedly turned the community against the game and lead to its demise is just ridiculous. More like he was a hub for those who were dissatisfied with the game. I for one had never heard of him before this, but found myself agreeing with a video which someone linked on these forums.
Stop looking to blame and scapegoat anyone other than Relic and their bad decisions.
Larkis
Ok think i didnt read it very well last time. That sound like a good idea indeed.
KPMaker
It is a great plan; and it would be better than nice, it would be Awesome!
Adding the AD in game via building upgrades might be more feasible, but I still love the COH 1 Tech Tree Idea, but this might be too drastic of a change.
You want to have more strategy during the match / in-game which is why so many RTS games can be a lot of fun. The more options and avenues of strategy you have during each match the more fun it will be- it's that simple. These options on top of good Pacing & a good Resource Mechanic and you generally have a winner IMO. Now we are literally limited before we even begin a match with DOW 3's Game Design.
This is my suggestion:
1) Army Doctrines available in each match in a Tech Tree System like COH-One (12 per tree)
2) All Elite Units available in each match divided into (HQ, Elite, Colossal) only 1 each of the HQ but more than 1 each of the others.
3) Stronger Line Units
4) More Modes (VP, Annihilation); these should of been first.
5) Buildings to occupy as an additional cover mechanic.
Each HQ, Elite, Colossal will cost "Elite, Requisition, and Power" and yes they can be balanced all being available in game.
But you need stronger Line Units for that and this goes again the Core Game Design as I mentioned in previous posts.
Amoc
So do the Steam player numbers. That's why it keeps getting brought up.
That's a bizarre thought. How did you manage to come to that conclusion from my comment?
My logic is that there's no point in copying existing franchises unless you're going to do offer something better. If you're not going to be better than the established competition, you're wasting your time and money.
Your comments are funny. Real Gamer? Is that some sort of video-game forum street cred? I couldn't care less.
Bitterman
Pretty dead... Good luck finding a 3v3 match within a reasonable timeframe. What are the dev's doing? How come they have addressed nothing or responded to our concerns? The population dropped like a rock.
RealdogXL
I'm still finding games, all hours, any day - there isn't anything looking at the numbers and being sad will do. Trying our best to be helpful, critical but accepting and nontoxic community members will keep those that are here; hopefully we all become a tighter nit group and upon steam sales maybe more will join and grow the multiplayer scene more.
greedogre
It is hard to discuss the people leaving the game before discuss the game itself. A topic I personally think hasn’t been talk enough or in a quality way since the game released.
Why make dawn of war3? Current game status without 40k title will defiantly had hard time to break 100,000 sales. Stopped calling it AAA title, I fail to see any quality control in anyway near an AAA standard. Why people has this “unfinished product” feeling, because there are problem here and there everywhere. Why there is no camera rotation? It’s equal to an certain amount of working time for a programmer. To another word, overall budget, because the limited programmer time needs to be focused on more pressing issues that make the game flow. And every none essential part of that game make former Dow series great such as BGM, voice acting all get cut. Everything toward a single object, to save budget on the final product. A typical small studio move.
And it’s reflect on the game design as well. It does have some sparking idea, such as elite system, but clearly designer don’t have any time to spare to test the idea. All of their idea is not been tested by actually player, or designer who actually are fan of his own game. To compare their so call new innovative design in general, in term of battle pace, expansion, skirmish, depth of play, Warcraft3 an almost 20 years old game or mother of all moba game feel way more elegant in those area.
IMO, dow2 is focus more on hardcore player where even you sunk 8000r into the game, if you don’t understand it, you will still be a ++heresy redacted++. Dow1 on the other hand is focus more on the general 40k population with more stuff to offer from the lore, to cover the most of the people who are into 40k to get blast each other with 40k toys. But both game in core are the same, a 40k game to represent 40k battle in the best way Relic understand or popular culture perceived, combine with top of the line quality control, such as BGM, Voice acting, engaging animation etc. and that is why I don’t believe even dow3 be a remake of any of the previous game maybe it wouldn’t be as bad as now but it won’t reach the height of any of the previous game, simply because lack of the budgets.
I think the game is beyond repair from the start, not because smaller issues people love to spend time to debut, but overall direction they chose is wrong, it’s not a RTS of the years but more of a money grab for relic to regain its strength or die trying.
Strangequark
Just the first part here for me, it gets called a AAA title, because it had a AAA pricetag. That's not the gamers fault for labeling it so, that's what a AAA pricetag is 60 bones, or 40 pounds.
Larkis
Have no oroblems finding a 3vs3 in seconds. What is a reasonable timeframe for you?
Larkis
Do you have played DOW1 frpm day one? Or only the polished Version with a lot Addons after years?
DoW1 had a lot problems when they start. Campaign was mostly unplayable. In the first Mission you dont get controll over the imperial army. In the 4th mission (i think) when you first get the whirlwinds, the whirlwinds was not able to shoot on the waaagh tower.
CSM was mostly a clone of SM.
Most players was really upset that you only could play stupid Marines in the Campaign.
Balance was realky bad in multiplayer.
KI was cheating a lot abd even could see invisible units, make them useless.
There was no way to learn other factions, you learn alot over marines in campaign. Want to play another race? Good look finding how. There was no youtube how-tos this days.
The only thing that sold the game was the graphic and animations.
It got great overtime. But that was other times the. People was patient and dont overreact over every peace of ++heresy redacted++.
MrBenis
You are circumventing the discussion that not all games lose 90% in less than 60 days, other than shitty ones like slaughtering grounds.
Draconix
Sadly, this game is dead at the moment, but still I like it, so I will play it when I will be able to afford it to buy.
But it seems there is a more harsh truth - If Relic gets closed, then there will be probably no more WH40K RTS game, and if then it won't be probably as great as Dow1. To be honest, RTS became now a niche genre, even big companies seems are not interested in this genre.
Despite that harsh truth, I'm glad that we gotted Dow3 ever. It is not a perfect game for most of us, of course but still, for me it is actually better than have nothing.
You can disagree with me, but you should at least respect that.