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Crowd control for Eldar?
2 years ago
MaxwellsDaemon
Hi all - I'll be succinct so as not to lose you all in a wall of text.
I think Eldar need more crowd control especially in T1. I believe this would fix a lot of the issues Eldar currently face and could allow them to move beyond the confines of their webway radius without whining about the lack of battle focus all the time.
It would also allow for more counter plays throughout the game (for instance I'd like to see stuns countering nobs taunt).
3 questions.
Do you agree?
If so-where could this crowd control come from?
How could you implement without Eldar being overpowered (again)m
1
Comments
Katitof
By crowd control I define disruption(stuns or whatever can interrupt your movement or abilities) and snares(suppression).
Heroes excluded, Eldar for crowd control have:
-DA nades out of T1
-Vyper slow device out of T2.
-Banshee doctrine for silence/blind
And that's it.
SM have:
-Flamer with doctrine
-TSM nades with doctrine
-ASM jump
-Scout nades
-Drop pods
-Standard
-Devastators(on top of regular snare, they can pin down unit in place with a doctrine)
-Dreadnught slam
-Lascannons doctrine
-While wihrlwind isn't a direct crowd control its still disruption on top of nuke so I'm counting it in
Orks have:
-Ard boys stun on charge
-Shoota nades
-Lootas
-Nobz taunt
-Nobz choppa throw
-Trukk infantry launch
-Big trakk arty mode explosions
-Scouting gretchin "stun mine" for deffkoptas doctrine
-Gretchin sabotage vehicle stun doctrine
-Boys scrap from sky doctrine
So yeah....
There is a tiiiny miiiiny disparity when it comes to crowd control between factions.
Its also a reason why eldar are underpowered at the moment, given the fact that mobility was completely gutted.
Evenio
Don't forget the Fire Prism knockback.. lol
Katitof
Don't forget to read patch notes and play the game.. lol.
DonDimon
Thanks for bringing this up. Totally agree. And this is on top of other areas where the Eldars are underperforming... oh gosh.
Evenio
Oh crap. I missed that one. I don't really pay attention to those things, now they're even worse.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Evenio @DonDimon @Katitof
So how do you think mkre crowd control could be implemented to the Eldar roster?
@Kat_RE
@Gorb
@Cataclaw
@vindicarex
@GuruSkippy
@Bigamo
@bikerushownz
@anyone else people can think it would be worth hearing the opinions of!
Runfree
Eldar are fine, they are juste here to be smashed by everything. There s the way the gods want it, it s just good.
CANNED_F3TUS
Not a big fan of certain CC ablities. CC needs to be carefully implemented or else people are going to abuse it. For example aOrks players are milking the spammable stun and taunt mechanics to the fullest its almost game breaking. Cant wait for relic to have a look at this and tone it down.
MaxwellsDaemon
@CANNED_F3TUS
Yeah I agree - but I think it's fine and a rich game mechanic provided there are counters.
For the taunt the radius is much too large (and probably goes on too long) so, for instance if you want to stun the nobz out of it your DA, scouts, tacs/ whatever will often get caught in it instead.
If the radius was reduced or the taunt only effected units that were caught in the initial instance there would be viable counters.
As it is often when a taunt goes off it feels like I can take my hands off the keyboard go and make a cup of tea and come back by the time the Ork has finished uncounterably chain stunning me- while screaming 'fleet of foot your way out of that ya mangy git!'
I exaggerate ofc but still....
Gorb
I need to play more in general before giving an opinion, sorry. As others have said, CC is a very powerful mechanical addition, and I think I need to get some more practise with certain units like Warp Spiders (given how much their mines were improved) before evaluating the state of CC across all tiers, nevermind the first. Opinion post.
Katitof
Heroes are really special case here and a fair share of them got CC in one form or another for all factions, that's why I didn't included them in my post.
Its the core armies CC capabilities that are leaving eldar far behind and cost of WWG is too prohibitive to build enough of them to counter that CC effects by either mitigating snares or avoiding hard stuns.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Gorb
Fair shout.
@Katitof
yeah I was avoiding factoring in elites. Though tbh I think Eldar at best trade even in that department as well given Gabriel Angelyolos and Jonah's circle time represents more crowd control than most of the Eldar roster entirely.
Kyre is ludicrous and in need of a substantial nerf and is about the only example of truly punishing Eldar crowd control I can think of.
Macha is, ofc, great but only in a small number of instances.
Warp spider mines are pretty fantastic. But given a Kommando can pretty much do the same thing (if not more) at 2 elite points less I find myself wondering if spiders over kyre is really worth it.
MrBenis
I tried warp spider tonight. I'd prefer some sort of snare grenade like the deathwatch compared to mines. Not saying they're bad as mines, just a preference.
MaxwellsDaemon
I much prefer the mines - every seconds you can place mkre down plus in a fight stick an on someone's feet and they're gonna do some damage.
They are slow for a rapid strike unit I understand where you're coming from with that.
RedDevilCG
I wish Warp Spiders had a normal teleport option along with their portal option. Something similar to Bone Singers, but shorter range and shorter cooldown. I always thought of them as Eldar's version of elite jump infantry.
MaxwellsDaemon
@RedDevilCG - I like the design of the elite but I have to admit I'd have much preferred them to be line infantry- in dow2 they were an excellent fun unit to counter the dominance of ASM in t1 blinking out before the jump could connect.
Now the answer to ASM is a falcon which is much less fun.
LastRights
I personally dont think that Eldar need more CC, I think the other factions need less. Way less. As it is, there is simply far too much slow and stun in the game. Removing player control is just frustrating, so those types of abilities should be limited far more than they are in DoW3.
MaxwellsDaemon
@AExterminatus
That's one way to go for sure. I'd be happy for that as well.
That said, one of the things I like about dow3 is how punishing it is.
Unlike Dow2 where you could often times rely on hitting x and watch your units hightail it out of there if you overextended in DoW3 you make a stupid mistake and the tools are their to punish you HARD for it.
Part of that is having the kinds of abilities that stun and lock you down.... you just have to make sure that appropriate counter plays available and I don't believe there are sufficient amounts of them atm.
Stoner
I think Eldar heavily compensate with CC on their Elites. I've been successfully knockdown-locked by 3 DAs with x2 plasma nades (Kyre) on top of pretty high damage, also Banshee have very good disrupt with doctrine, totally worth it, with few DRs they can wreck enemies army early game pretty hard. We should really take into account not only quantity but quality as well.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Stoner
Have to say I disagree entirely. nearly every elite has decent crowd control
Stoner
Not many Elites have Macha's spear with insane utility, which can freeze or kill outright big chunk of models while disrupting them. Kyre is an absolute champion of CC, if you slip up just a little, you're losing your entire army in a blink. I can really go on, but not sure I have to...
jonoliveira12
Eldar does need insane CC on their Elites, though, since we completely lack it in our Line Units.
And before anyone mentions the Falcon, it costs 250 Energy and doesn't last 2 senconds against anti-armour.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Stoner they have good crowd control for sure but literally almost every elite does.
Kyre is basically broken hiw potent he is (I hope he gets toned down).
Macha is decent but easily dealt with since she can be stunned out of stasis by ASM, grenades etc.
But as a proof of principle with regards to elites....
Gabriel Angelos massive jumpflipping hammer of disruption, punishing shot blocker.
Jonah orion - and his collosseum of fun.
Grimgor and his grim claw.
Kommando Nob and his stun that lasts for an entire escalation phase.
Wazmekka who seemingly makes a slowing turret out of everything.
You get the point.
Katitof
Every faction got elites with a lot of CC, only 2-3 elites per faction do not have a form of crowd control, so elites do not compensate for anything on eldar side.
jonoliveira12
I'll agree to nerfing Kire, when they rework Dark Reapers or Dire Avengers, or both.
Stoner
I just dread to think what game may turn into, if they keep Kyre along with everything else and give Eldar even more CC... On SM Elites:
Gabe is good, no argument here, I'd rather see him toned down a bit too, because every other SM is forced to use him, though his flip has pretty small distance.
Good luck trying to charge Jonah into the army with his hp pool, because in range he has only mediocre DPS. Very few players use him atm.
Killteam nade is very short duration and effectiveness goes downhill fast at T2>Esc 2.
Currently Macha pretty much tanks x2 Devs fire with spear in hand, and if you want to disrupt, she throws it and my devs can't dodge it, so when I see Macha in Roster, i pretty much forget about them. Shees with Doctrine can cancel ASM jump, and they die to Reapers fire like flies. It needs execution, but pretty brutal still, as they get serious beating from Shees themselves while helpless. Wraithguards, now Fire Prism - Eldar might not have big focus on CC, but damage with TTK is quite insane. Adding or removing something from race needs VERY careful tweaking.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Stoner
I agree it does need careful consideration but I think it would be the right direction.
I just don't think it makes a good argument to say they have their necessary CC on their elites....elites require elite points can die on long timers and unlike units where you can have multiple have a fixed timer.
But yes- please no overpowered Eldar again (same for any race).
Guziol
I would you just like for eldar to have other option to clear heavy cover other than running banshees in and hoping for the best. And im not talking elites here eaither.
jonoliveira12
Yes, Banshees are too squishy, they mostly get shot to pieces before they even get close, unless you use Scorpions on Hunt.
Striking Scorpions are now mandatory, rather than optional, as they give your Banshees what they sorely lack in the beggining: an initiation mechanic.
MrBenis
Personally still feel heavy cover is bad under current implementation. Completely blocks non-melee units totally arbitrarily. Can workers enter at least? Would a bonesinger be able to teleport inside?