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Let's talk about infantry AT
2 years ago
Svanh
This is a discussion about the Tankbusta, Shadow Spectre, and Lascannon Devastator squads. I'm interested in what we all think about these units, the mechanics behind their damage ramp-up, and especially their bonus damage to skimmer units. 
Cost, Models, and Durability
- TankBustas: 6 models, 140 health per model for a total of 840 health and a cost of 420 requisition. Max speed of 6.
- Shadow Spectres: 3 models, 95 health per model for a total of 285/420 health/shield with a cost of 435/30 and requiring an upgrade costing 270/30. Max speed of 5.5 with skimmer movement (but not skimmer type).
- Lascannon Devastators: 3 models, 280 health per model for a total of 840 health and a cost of 420 requisition. Max speed of 5.
DPS, Ramping, and Bonus Damage
- Tankbustas: 22.5 AP damage per rocket (135 per salvo) every ~4.625 seconds (~30 DPS) at range 50. 40 bonus True damage against skimmers for a total of 375 damage per salvo (~60 DPS).
- Shadow Spectres: 2.5 AP damage every 0.25 seconds for 30 AP DPS for the whole squad at range 42. 5 bonus True damage per shot against skimmers (+60 DPS for the squad) with DPS increases of +18 AP DPS and +24 AP DPS after 5 seconds and 13 seconds of continuous fire against the same target respectively (total ramped DPS/against skimmers: 72/132 DPS). The squad loses all ramping progress when switching targets.
- Lascannon Devastators: 1.875 AP damage every 0.25 seconds for 22.5 AP DPS for the whole squad at range 50. 4 bonus True damage per shot against skimmers (+48 DPS for the squad) with DPS increases of +22.5 AP DPS and +33 AP DPS after 4 seconds and 8 seconds of continuous fire respectively (total ramped DPS/against skimmers: 78/126 DPS). The squad must not have fired in the last 5 seconds to lose ramping progress.
How have you found these units? Do any of them need changes?
Also, an interesting fact I found while writing this: the Heavy Bolter Devastator doctrine that increases range when in stealth or heavy cover also applies to Lascannon Devastators.
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Comments
CANNED_F3TUS
Not sure but Las cannon and. Tenkbustas are pretty brutal as well. They need to make bomb squigs targetable or increase the size of bomb squig to make it easier to target.
Specteres can firevon the move. So maybe increase their movement speed by 1 but leave everything else as is
MrBenis
I don't think the game is improved by having shadowspectres (who should have alernate fire modes like their TT) be a dps grinder also like devs. Not to mention that changing target or losing range means the unit will have to reset and spool up again before applying their LOWEST amount of dps to the target.
This is one of the areas where Spectres fall short. The ability to hover over terrain does not compensate their many other weaknesses and higher cost.
jonoliveira12
Yes, this is true.
Guziol
Nothing against current las devs. Really like tankbusters but they might need some small tweaks. Spectres make me wish we had fire dragons or something like that everytime im forced to build them. I highly dislike that unit on every level. They also underperform when they are facing anything thats not a slow walker vechicle.
MaxwellsDaemon
Yeah shadow spectres are too easily countered- they have to be close to the vehicle AND stay there for a sustained amount of time.... which they clearly can't do.
This means that in order to defend against vehicles you can't make cost effective trades OR attacks like sm and Orks.
Grighoul
Spectres are so weak, that they can't even compete with SM skimmer-type landspeeder.
Fate
i agree spetres are to weak right now. There realy slow and easy to kill.
Also the fact that they can be hitted and knokbacked by aoe effects on the ground irritates me. Locks strange.
About busters. I dont like the fact that ur units dont shoot at the squigs. Why would they not do that?
Las devs have a hight potential to deal good dmg in all tier levels. I would maybee not say there op but they perform overall quite good.
Meltreness
I suggest increasing for a start their hp / shield bonus from upgrades or base hp / shield. Another option would be to decrease their energy cost or completely remove it.
jonoliveira12
If you mean Shadow Specters, I think just giving them better speed and LoS would help tremendously. They should remove the Energy cost to unlock, and rise the Requisition cost on it, though.
Stoner
The best thing would be to move Specters to T2, auto-unlock them on T2 and remove any power cost. Not sure about damage/speed buffs, but I don't think +1 speed would hurt much, though under FoF they can become really annoying. They are pretty fierce in good hands, the only units who can really counter them are HWTs atm. Those changes should come only if Ork early Trukk will be moved to a bit further and no early armor capabilities by any other race in T1. I do understand that asymmetric gameplay looks nice and all, but we're talking here about competitive multiplayer game, balance should always go before anything else.
Svanh
I've noticed that Spectres seem to reset their DPS when they switch which model they're firing at in the same squad (due to the previous one dying/moving out of range). Has anyone else seen this?
MrBenis
I have seen something like this. Spectres are really only good at killing wraithguard and walkers. Anything with a decent gun will annihilate them (whole other problem)
MaxwellsDaemon
Yeah spectres are in a bad place at the moment for sure. They need to have a similar mechanic to switching target as lascannons orrrr have upfront damage like tabkbustas.
Given that they are another power sink they need to be worth it. Presently they feel like the most expensive and least effective AV.
Skemooo
make shadow specteres immune to knock back.. rest is fine..
Nautiloidor
SS underperform massively. I think the unlock research should be removed, or at least the power cost removed. And agree with other people, some sort of cc immunity should be introduced. The same for Kyre when he is flying too.
MaxwellsDaemon
Kyre needs no buffs. But if he is nerfed than this boon may be fair.
TBH I hope they take a big look at crowd control in general.