How to deal against early flamer spam?

AngelofDeth · June 2017

Hello, I've been seriously in trouble against last match. I could've won, seriously but those flamers which is !@$$@! insane. He get 2 tact then one of them got flamer, I was like the hell? How do I suppose counter that early with such paper army? I hope a serious tweak on SM early game should be fine so Eldar could atleast catch up.

PaperBaG · June 2017

need to be tied up with banshee and bonsingers

jonoliveira12 · June 2017

@PaperBaG said:
need to be tied up with banshee and bonsingers

That does not work unless Banshees get to silence them before the Flamer starts, which is difficult to do if there is no stealth cover nearby, or the Flamer is out of Webway radius, because the ability cannot be stopped unless the model performing it is moved.

Bonesinger gets no effect, as the squad does go melee, but the Flamer marine does not, and keeps channeling the Flamer.

AngelofDeth · June 2017

@jonoliveira12 said:

@PaperBaG said:
need to be tied up with banshee and bonsingers

That does not work unless Banshees get to silence them before the Flamer starts, which is difficult to do if there is no stealth cover nearby, or the Flamer is out of Webway radius, because the ability cannot be stopped unless the model performing it is moved.

Bonesinger gets no effect, as the squad does go melee, but the Flamer marine does not, and keeps channeling the Flamer.

That's the problem I'm facing, even worse when they get 2 or 3 flamers. I guess the best way is get a DA then throw grenade but even if you managed to disrupt the flamers, you'll ended up losing a single or 2 squads by those flamers in 2 sec btw. I'm having a problem whether I should go fast tier 2 or get upgrade for tier 1 unit.

jonoliveira12 · June 2017

@AngelofDeth said:

@jonoliveira12 said:

@PaperBaG said:
need to be tied up with banshee and bonsingers

That does not work unless Banshees get to silence them before the Flamer starts, which is difficult to do if there is no stealth cover nearby, or the Flamer is out of Webway radius, because the ability cannot be stopped unless the model performing it is moved.

Bonesinger gets no effect, as the squad does go melee, but the Flamer marine does not, and keeps channeling the Flamer.

That's the problem I'm facing, even worse when they get 2 or 3 flamers. I guess the best way is get a DA then throw grenade but even if you managed to disrupt the flamers, you'll ended up losing a single or 2 squads by those flamers in 2 sec btw. I'm having a problem whether I should go fast tier 2 or get upgrade for tier 1 unit.

There are no good counters at T1, I am afraid.
Dark Reapers can make your opponent regret using his Flamer, if you can bait a shot, the Flamer squad has to stand still or cancel the channeling.
Apart from that, there is nothing you can do, as even Strinking Scorpions are bad against Flamers.
Also, the DA grenades do not stop the Flamer, that model is not knocked back by grenades, for some reason.

AngelofDeth · June 2017

@jonoliveira12 said:

@AngelofDeth said:

@jonoliveira12 said:

@PaperBaG said:
need to be tied up with banshee and bonsingers

That does not work unless Banshees get to silence them before the Flamer starts, which is difficult to do if there is no stealth cover nearby, or the Flamer is out of Webway radius, because the ability cannot be stopped unless the model performing it is moved.

Bonesinger gets no effect, as the squad does go melee, but the Flamer marine does not, and keeps channeling the Flamer.

That's the problem I'm facing, even worse when they get 2 or 3 flamers. I guess the best way is get a DA then throw grenade but even if you managed to disrupt the flamers, you'll ended up losing a single or 2 squads by those flamers in 2 sec btw. I'm having a problem whether I should go fast tier 2 or get upgrade for tier 1 unit.

There are no good counters at T1, I am afraid.
Dark Reapers can make your opponent regret using his Flamer, if you can bait a shot, the Flamer squad has to stand still or cancel the channeling.
Apart from that, there is nothing you can do, as even Strinking Scorpions are bad against Flamers.
Also, the DA grenades do not stop the Flamer, that model is not knocked back by grenades, for some reason.

Okay so now it's really an Eldar mechanic or balance issue? I remember DA grenade could knocked the flamers but you'll gonna die anyway because they burnt fast. It is so bad in tier 1, I'll have to upgrade them so in tier 1 I could sustain much longer but going against 3 flamers and get flanked by them is pretty much over unless if you can micro so well which I'm not good at it yet but we're learning.

jonoliveira12 · June 2017

@AngelofDeth said:

@jonoliveira12 said:

@AngelofDeth said:

@jonoliveira12 said:

@PaperBaG said:
need to be tied up with banshee and bonsingers

That does not work unless Banshees get to silence them before the Flamer starts, which is difficult to do if there is no stealth cover nearby, or the Flamer is out of Webway radius, because the ability cannot be stopped unless the model performing it is moved.

Bonesinger gets no effect, as the squad does go melee, but the Flamer marine does not, and keeps channeling the Flamer.

That's the problem I'm facing, even worse when they get 2 or 3 flamers. I guess the best way is get a DA then throw grenade but even if you managed to disrupt the flamers, you'll ended up losing a single or 2 squads by those flamers in 2 sec btw. I'm having a problem whether I should go fast tier 2 or get upgrade for tier 1 unit.

There are no good counters at T1, I am afraid.
Dark Reapers can make your opponent regret using his Flamer, if you can bait a shot, the Flamer squad has to stand still or cancel the channeling.
Apart from that, there is nothing you can do, as even Strinking Scorpions are bad against Flamers.
Also, the DA grenades do not stop the Flamer, that model is not knocked back by grenades, for some reason.

Okay so now it's really an Eldar mechanic or balance issue? I remember DA grenade could knocked the flamers but you'll gonna die anyway because they burnt fast. It is so bad in tier 1, I'll have to upgrade them so in tier 1 I could sustain much longer but going against 3 flamers and get flanked by them is pretty much over unless if you can micro so well which I'm not good at it yet but we're learning.

This is why a lot of people stopped playing Eldar all together.
3 Tacts, one with Flamer, with Tireless and Slow Death, can push you shield faster than you can get out 2 Banshees. And even if you can win the fight with micro, they will just drop Banner, which is an "I win" button on any early fight.

MrBenis · June 2017

@jonoliveira12 said:

@AngelofDeth said:

Okay so now it's really an Eldar mechanic or balance issue? I remember DA grenade could knocked the flamers but you'll gonna die anyway because they burnt fast. It is so bad in tier 1, I'll have to upgrade them so in tier 1 I could sustain much longer but going against 3 flamers and get flanked by them is pretty much over unless if you can micro so well which I'm not good at it yet but we're learning.

This is why a lot of people stopped playing Eldar all together.
3 Tacts, one with Flamer, with Tireless and Slow Death, can push you shield faster than you can get out 2 Banshees. And even if you can win the fight with micro, they will just drop Banner, which is an "I win" button on any early fight.

Well this is ignoring the cost of getting a flamer which is an armoury + the power cost of flamer. If you want to make an argument that Eldar lack comparatively powerful t1 upgrades I'd probably believe you, say, compared to things like buffing the DR AOE or giving squad exarchs to help them remain competitive (similarly to squad flamers, the exarch is an upgrade that is lost when the squad dies. You'll have to be careful about how you create your army compositions).

AngelofDeth · June 2017

@jonoliveira12 said:
This is why a lot of people stopped playing Eldar all together.
3 Tacts, one with Flamer, with Tireless and Slow Death, can push you shield faster than you can get out 2 Banshees. And even if you can win the fight with micro, they will just drop Banner, which is an "I win" button on any early fight.

Yeah, they just need to press that button to win. SM shouldn't be able to use drop pod in early game since they got banner. So much crowd control and drop pods + flamer is too much for early game.

jonoliveira12 · June 2017

@AngelofDeth said:

@jonoliveira12 said:
This is why a lot of people stopped playing Eldar all together.
3 Tacts, one with Flamer, with Tireless and Slow Death, can push you shield faster than you can get out 2 Banshees. And even if you can win the fight with micro, they will just drop Banner, which is an "I win" button on any early fight.

Yeah, they just need to press that button to win. SM shouldn't be able to use drop pod in early game since they got banner. So much crowd control and drop pods + flamer is too much for early game.

The Drop Pod is fine, in the early game, but the Banner should start on Cooldown, like Bonesinger Warp.

jonoliveira12 · June 2017

@MrBenis said:

@jonoliveira12 said:

@AngelofDeth said:

Okay so now it's really an Eldar mechanic or balance issue? I remember DA grenade could knocked the flamers but you'll gonna die anyway because they burnt fast. It is so bad in tier 1, I'll have to upgrade them so in tier 1 I could sustain much longer but going against 3 flamers and get flanked by them is pretty much over unless if you can micro so well which I'm not good at it yet but we're learning.

This is why a lot of people stopped playing Eldar all together.
3 Tacts, one with Flamer, with Tireless and Slow Death, can push you shield faster than you can get out 2 Banshees. And even if you can win the fight with micro, they will just drop Banner, which is an "I win" button on any early fight.

Well this is ignoring the cost of getting a flamer which is an armoury + the power cost of flamer. If you want to make an argument that Eldar lack comparatively powerful t1 upgrades I'd probably believe you, say, compared to things like buffing the DR AOE or giving squad exarchs to help them remain competitive (similarly to squad flamers, the exarch is an upgrade that is lost when the squad dies. You'll have to be careful about how you create your army compositions).

The problem is that there is not counterplay to it, early on.

MrBenis · June 2017

@jonoliveira12 said:

@MrBenis said:

@jonoliveira12 said:

@AngelofDeth said:

Okay so now it's really an Eldar mechanic or balance issue? I remember DA grenade could knocked the flamers but you'll gonna die anyway because they burnt fast. It is so bad in tier 1, I'll have to upgrade them so in tier 1 I could sustain much longer but going against 3 flamers and get flanked by them is pretty much over unless if you can micro so well which I'm not good at it yet but we're learning.

This is why a lot of people stopped playing Eldar all together.
3 Tacts, one with Flamer, with Tireless and Slow Death, can push you shield faster than you can get out 2 Banshees. And even if you can win the fight with micro, they will just drop Banner, which is an "I win" button on any early fight.

Well this is ignoring the cost of getting a flamer which is an armoury + the power cost of flamer. If you want to make an argument that Eldar lack comparatively powerful t1 upgrades I'd probably believe you, say, compared to things like buffing the DR AOE or giving squad exarchs to help them remain competitive (similarly to squad flamers, the exarch is an upgrade that is lost when the squad dies. You'll have to be careful about how you create your army compositions).

The problem is that there is not counterplay to it, early on.

Eldar not having early counterplay is a big problem yes. All of our CC is locked behind time sinks like rangers or banshee charge. Our doctrines are the least worthwhile of all 3 races with several of them being completely worthless. I typically only see 4 doctrines being used because the overwhelming majority are awful.

Once heavy units start hitting the field particularly in mirror matches you start looking at a race for getting the most WG. Whoever gets the most WG wins because the only counter to WG is WG (or prisms LOL) since nothing else works. When you take a holistic look at eldar they are easily the worst race in the game with no staying power in T1 and no capacity for countering heavy units in t2+. Predator destructors absolutely ++heresy redacted++ eldar, it's just crazy stupid how badly designed Spectres, Wraithblades, vypers and the time sinks are. We already pay a power premium for the slowest and least tanky units, then we have to delay and wait and pay taxes to get our units which make the army function at higher tiers. We don't have cheap spammable melee units. To be balanced properly would boyz need to be 400rq and ASM 600rq? Compared to their utility banshees are garbage a.f. and I stopped building banshees almost completely now.

AngelofDeth · June 2017

@MrBenis said:
Eldar not having early counterplay is a big problem yes. All of our CC is locked behind time sinks like rangers or banshee charge. Our doctrines are the least worthwhile of all 3 races with several of them being completely worthless. I typically only see 4 doctrines being used because the overwhelming majority are awful.

Once heavy units start hitting the field particularly in mirror matches you start looking at a race for getting the most WG. Whoever gets the most WG wins because the only counter to WG is WG (or prisms LOL) since nothing else works. When you take a holistic look at eldar they are easily the worst race in the game with no staying power in T1 and no capacity for countering heavy units in t2+. Predator destructors absolutely ++heresy redacted++ eldar, it's just crazy stupid how badly designed Spectres, Wraithblades, vypers and the time sinks are. We already pay a power premium for the slowest and least tanky units, then we have to delay and wait and pay taxes to get our units which make the army function at higher tiers. We don't have cheap spammable melee units. To be balanced properly would boyz need to be 400rq and ASM 600rq? Compared to their utility banshees are garbage a.f. and I stopped building banshees almost completely now.

Yes, I dislike that wraithblade died so quickly. I kept my energy resources for them and prism but both of them are just terrible. 2 Pred with fully upgraded could destroy wraithblade in 3 shot (even if they were fully upgraded!) So, wraithguard is the only option for me to destroy heavy armor unit.

MaxwellsDaemon · June 2017

The fix I think would be to give banshee scream a silence or interrupt and make it castable.

Would be fair to have it as a soul shrine upgrade.

Do something else with the doctrine as there needs to be a appropriate counter play not tied to a doctrine.

Banshees also need more scalability into late game in general.

I've noticed Dark reapers spam is becoming more of a thing because it is the only unit that has late game relevance and/or doesn't have a power price tag shoved onto it.

jonoliveira12 · June 2017

@MaxwellsDaemon said:
The fix I think would be to give banshee scream a silence or interrupt and make it castable.

Would be fair to have it as a soul shrine upgrade.

Do something else with the doctrine as there needs to be a appropriate counter play not tied to a doctrine.

Banshees also need more scalability into late game in general.

I've noticed Dark reapers spam is becoming more of a thing because it is the only unit that has late game relevance and/or doesn't have a power price tag shoved onto it.

Lategame Eldar is Dark Reaper + Wraithguard spam, as those are the only units that do something.

Wraithblades should be T2 units, as melee is heavily phased out by T3 anyway, except for Nob launching and Dopped Dreadnoughts, as clutch plays.

jonoliveira12 · June 2017

@MaxwellsDaemon said:
The fix I think would be to give banshee scream a silence or interrupt and make it castable.

Would be fair to have it as a soul shrine upgrade.

Do something else with the doctrine as there needs to be a appropriate counter play not tied to a doctrine.

Banshees also need more scalability into late game in general.

I've noticed Dark reapers spam is becoming more of a thing because it is the only unit that has late game relevance and/or doesn't have a power price tag shoved onto it.

That would actually make Banshees less useful, since having to get yet another upgrade slows their utility down worse than having to socket a doctrine.

MaxwellsDaemon · June 2017

@MrBenis
I was suggesting the silence was purchasable.

Without being condescending can I suggest you try and move ideas forward rather than reflexively contradicting them.

It's not all doom and gloom man - these forums are meant to be where we put our heads together and help move the game forward.

We need to be fairly balanced in our suggestions for them to be taken seriously and I think stating the faction needs a complete rework is a tad melodramatic.

jonoliveira12 · June 2017

@MaxwellsDaemon said:
@MrBenis
I was suggesting the silence was purchasable.

Without being condescending can I suggest you try and move ideas forward rather than reflexively contradicting them.

It's not all doom and gloom man - these forums are meant to be where we put our heads together and help move the game forward.

We need to be fairly balanced in our suggestions for them to be taken seriously and I think stating the faction needs a complete rework is a tad melodramatic.

The faction is fine after T2, as I have said before, but T1 does need a rework.
Don't take it as a personal matter, I just said what would happen if Banshees needed to buy even more upgrades. They and DAs need a boost. DRs need less setup time.

How to deal against early flamer spam?

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