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Eldar falcon is op?)
3 years ago
Diogen84
Whereas ppl(eldars mostly) argue that predator destructor is op and have no counter at t3(silly, yes? Any mass vehicles at t3 are unstopable against troops)i would like to notice that falcon at t2 have absolutely no counter at t1.
So Relics, if you go to accept that crying to nerf destructors to the ground, making sm do not order them at all and play just whirlwinds or speeders, which they are also would like to nerf to the ground despite tge difference of cost among factions, do the same pls to falcon. And please take into account different tech level, different aoe, rate of fire and the difference in cost.
With respect to eldars. But not to their crying and desire of childish revenge.
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Comments
Katitof
I think the real question is, what were you doing which led to you being 400 power behind?
Also, destructors are very durable, anti all units with focus on infantry, supported by amazingly strong doctrines, they also get 15% health upgrade applied properly and don't take bonus damage from anything.
Falcon can get countered by a pair of lascannon devs and contrary to destructor, can't do anything to heavy armor units, which means land speeder will roll over it so hard its not even funny, and if you are not in T2 by the time falcon hits the field, perhaps you should not have let your opponent get every single power node on the map in first 3 minute of the game?
oneproduct
Sure, there's probably not really any counter in tier 1 (though having a lascannon devastator or dark reapers inside a shield bubble would work if the fighting is around one), but the falcon is a fairly expensive tier 2 unit.
SM at tier 2 can easily counter it with a landspeeder with melta gun. Against other eldar, wraithguard counter it. Orkz can probably counter it with a killa kan. Basically any heavy armor tier 2 unit with anti vehicle damage.
I'm not sure entire why you say that the tier 3 predator has no counter at tier 3 then compare to a tier 2 falcon but demand a tier 1 counter. I would agree that it probably wouldn't hurt to either reduce the AoE of the falcon's weapon or slightly reduce its damage though. But at least there's stuff that can stop falcons, whereas it's much harder to find a counter to predators.
Diogen84
Lascannons are t2, you should know that if you played sm. You just won't have a chance to build them if you produce fast falcon. Also as you, eldars, like to talk they are extremely expensive and could be tied by one 80req bonesinger. So that is unfair and doesn't count)
As for yhe destructors, they can be killed by prisms and wrath warriors. Who are very durable.
About no counter to desctructors these are not my words initialy, i just forwarded them from sibling topics. Destructors are also cost 275power. They are cheap?
Shampoo
a falcon at the beginning of tier 2 will kill a couple of units of assault marines or boyz without shields being dropped, you backing this kind of gameplay is why we are down to less than 1000 players, nobody enjoys seeing swathes of their infantry being mowed down by an eldar ######## transport, it's nothing like the falcon on tabletop and they turned it into a killing machine. That's DoW 3 in a nutshell, don't let your opponent get lots of power or they will curb stomp you with all their armour.
oneproduct
My mistake about the lascannon. They could possibly just make the lascannon (and tank bustaz) tier 1, I don't really see any harm in it since dark reapers are tier 1 and making an anti vehicle unit in tier 1 is probably not something you'd want to do most of the time anyways.
If by wraith warriors you mean wraithblades (the melee ones), there's no way they can kill a destructor, because the destructor can just kite them. Wraithguards certainly stand a chance, but have the exact same problem as lascannons where you can just tie them up with a melee unit. Predator destructors also do fairly well against wraithguards too, since both of those units are heavy armor and anti vehicle.
I wouldn't say that fire prisms counter destructors, because the fire prism has too low DPS. By the time the prism could kill the destructor the destructor could have done much more damage to the eldar army. Fire prisms are like the tank version of a ranger. They have long range and low DPS, which means they can't really win fights on their own because they don't output enough damage. Of course they're good if you're just harassing because of their range, but if the SM and eldar army are crashing into each other, I'd value a predator more than a fire prism.
Diogen84
First of all they do true dmg. Destructors not. Aoe is also different.
They can easy go higherground to avoid being seen by enemy and avoid receiving dmg. Predators not. Then you are able to produce prisms, i assume you already CAN get 1 squad of rangers to kill enemy builders and make recon for prisms.
Have you tried wraithlord shot and return?)
oneproduct
Fire prisms just do too low DPS and are too fragile. You can always choose to hunt them down with a melta landspeeder which costs less.
The predator's AoE is generally better because it's not avoidable since it's instant.
One squad of rangers wouldn't have enough DPS to stop a bunch of builders rushing you (but it's ASM tying up wraithguard that's the problem, as ASM are so tanky you can't remove them in time for your wraithguard to even get shots off). Even if a squad of rangers was enough, then you could do the same thing with scout snipers placed behind lascannons to kill bonesingers the second they warp, before they even have a chance to enter melee combat.
Diogen84
Same you can do with banshee, reapers with true dmg, who outrange destructors. Same to rangers, vipers(mass, and they are much cheaper than predators), wraithlords e t c.
You can judge everything to make game easier and more comfortable. I do NOT disagree that some adjustments are needed, but you complain that asm are still op, tsm are op, whirlwinds are op, scouts(!) are op, destructors are op, devs are op, lasdevs are op, snipers are op, speeders are op, someone mentioned dreadnoughts are op, even droppods are op. Guys, don't you think it is too much, and if it was true BaBuyBuy would not got 35+ wins in row as eldar?
Every unit in game could be countered by tactics, but nerfing each unit of faction is not a constructive behavior. It is silly childish revenge to sm who at lesst started to win against overbuffed eldars before the patch. The only thing which relics shouldn't do to eldars is reducing shields of units. But this could be fixrd and we will see adjusted balance. Not completely reverted from top to bottom. Dammn, now the game is at least playable and you just want to turn everything from top to bottom. Eldars need slight buff, but sm and orks must be the same as they are now.
Praxis
Lol so a t2 vehicle is stronger then t1 infantry? Um yes that is the point of teching up. You realise that Eldar cannot rush to t2 either like sm since they depend on 30 power webway gates right?
Diogen84
Sm must build additional barracks for asm who cost energy and each model cost energy. Sm must build another chapel for devs. That is time and requisition.
The same complaint eldars have about t3 destructor. But tgey have wraithlords with return and prism who have giant aoe with true dmg(the highest in the game) and the longest after whirlwind range. A, and the can easy run away even from asm by using landscape.
Katitof
There is no such thing as "falcon at the beginning of T2" because structure it comes from costs 140 power and falcon itself costs 250.
Also, why are you engaging falcon with melee infantry?
If you don't have counter by the time its on field, you deserve whatever is coming your way as you can effortelessly have lascannon/tankbustas or killacan/land speeder at around same time.
I'd also like to point out that Wave Serpent is Eldar transport.
Falcon is main battle tank. It can transport stuff as well, because that's how eldar works.
Also don't even try to go into TT here, we don't have whole armies from first minute in DoW3 on field like you do on TT.
And last but not least, if you are out teched in ANY RTS game you're going to be punished for it hard, hardly DoW3 exclusive there.
Diogen84
Does it mean that orks and sm must be prepeared to any fast falcon, and any cunning, but when it concerns against eldar it is op and unfair?) Intersting double standards...
Draconix
Then why not just buff Shadow Spectres a bit while leaving Falcon same as it is now? Just my suggestion if has to help anyone.
Katitof
Yes.
If you are not scouting, you should prepare certain units in advance, especially if it feels like you're behind in power and reached T2 yourself based on opponents army composition, upgrades and current meta, which all tell you what to expect and when.
Its called anticipation, we are doing that since CoH1 came out.
Do you play against orks and not expect trukks and suicide boys?
Do you play against SM and not expect fast land speeder?
Diogen84
I meant another, read again please.
Praxis
Um no there is no reason for SM to need asm other then personnel preference. SM can comfortably spend 0 power in t1 other then to upgrade listening posts. Eldar on the other need to build 1 or 2 webway gates as well as Banshees. SM have drop pods that can deploy shielded infantry anywhere with knockdown, a banner that shields and Deathwatch that are probably the strongest 2 point elite in the game.
And you're bringing up wraithguard and Fire Prisms in a discussion about Falcons, why? You realise Wraithguard teleport requires charges and that a rescue mechanism is needed because they're extremely expensive and slow?
And Fire Prisms are crap. Theyre extremely expensive, slow, fragile and have a slow rate of fire that dosn't even that do much damage. A a single land speeder with melta can easily chase them down and destroy any number of Fire Prisms.
Comparing a Falcon to ASM makes as much sense as comparing a Land Speeder to Banshees.
Shampoo
No the fire prism is the main battle tank and it can do focused or dispersed fire, falcon is the transport for small units of aspect warriors like fire dragons so they can pop open armour, wave serpent is for transporting your guardians or wraiths, it shouldn't be hovering around killing units with ease, that's the job of the fire prism. Sorry to disappoint but melee units in dawn of war and on tabletop have been more than capable of taking out armour before dow 3 so don't know why you think they shouldn't when there are units designed to pop open armour in close combat but dow 3 throws that out the window.
Katitof
Fire prism is artillery.....
Falcon is and always was main battle tank for eldar with small transport capacity.
Wave serpent is and always was transport for eldar with regular transport capacity.
Its hovering around, killing INFANTRY units with ease, because it costs 25 power less then a god ++heresy redacted++ PREDATOR DESTRUCTOR, but can engage only infantry, over shorter range, got considerably lower durability and its health does NOT scale with upgrades.
It couldn't be more irrelevant what units in TT do to other units, this is RTS, there is no movement phases, no charge phases, no turns where one sides units will just stand there, looking pretty, while you do your movement. You should be capable enough to tell the difference yourself without me pointing it out here and now.
We're not talking tabletop here, we're talking DoW3 here, where falcon is main battle tank(there is literally NO other eldar vehicle that can get in range of anti tank weapons and not explode instantly) and fire prism is artillery, it was also artillery in DoW2 as well as DoW1.
If you want to talk tabletop, you should go to forums dedicated to tabletop, these are boards for this RTS game called DoW3.
Diogen84
Heresy!
You are wrong, thay are NOT ONLY against infantry.
Prism's second ground explosion deals true dmg which is against vehicle. Slow tanks just do not have enough time+reaction speed to avoid splash dmg.
Shampoo
It's a warhammer and a dawn of war game, units should function like they do in the warhammer universe or why make a game with the warhammer logo and not respect the lore that brings in people who want to play a warhammer game? Ok you are obviously heavily invested in the game and refuse to see its flaws but it doesn't mean they are not there and having whirlwinds and falcons one shotting what should be important infantry units is not helping the game.
Katitof
In Warhammer universe, Falcon is eldar main battle tank with weapons effective against all kinds of targets, with permanent shields and hull more durable then that of a Predator STC.
In Warhammer universe, Eldar getting Phoenix Lord to fight on the field pretty much equals defeat of the opposing side. Phoenix Lords make Primarchs look like guardsmen.
In Warhammer universe, Striking Scorpion heavy aspect armor is immune to standard bolter fire.
In Warhammer universe, unless space marine got a name, its a cannon fodder(well, we got that part nailed down, didn't we?).
Yes, lets do things how they are in Warhammer universe and see how fun it'll be.
You lost the grip of reality, can't tell fluff from tabletop from RTS game balance.
Shampoo
you have some serious issues so i'll leave you be, your input will only keep killing off the size of the playerbase but goodluck.
Katitof
Irony overload lol.
vindicarex
There are so many things wrong in this thread idk where to start.
Shampoo
Yup turning the game into a futuristic battle of kursk has done wonders for dawn of war 3.
vindicarex
Predators could probably do with a power increase - seems to at least be worth 300 or 325 power.
Fire Prisms are indeed quite good - especially when micro'd - like everything else in this game. If they got any better they'd be borderline OP.
Power lead is indeed huge in this game just as it was huge in DoW2 and to a lesser extent DoW1.
Eldar's barracks units are actually pretty inefficient. Take the shadow spectre: 30 power to build! Building this guy in t1 pretty much means you are gonna be even further behind to tech. Banshees, rangers, DA, and DR all have lacklustre damage too. This makes Eldar pretty bad early game (mostly in 1v1).
The Falcon has almost an identical function as the Falcon in DoW2.
RedDevilCG
Maybe he meant how things function on the table top, not how they work in Stackpole's writing? lol
MaxwellsDaemon
@Diogen84 @Katitof @TripSin
Didn't read the entire discourse in the thread but yeah....
Cost of a falcon is (imagining that you -SOMEHOW- survive t1 without spending energy on anything else) 190power +145+ 225.
Cost of a lascannon devastator is 200power to tech to t2.
The counter is easier to get out than the falcon....by a lot.