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How to survive early game?
AngelofDeth
Hello, recently, I did fine in the middle of the game but when suddenly they dropped pod dreads and make me lose the battle. The problem is, it's SM mechanic that gives them huge advantage early game. I went for 2 banshee early because I know tact is weak in melee but drop pod, and banner just ruined it all. It forced me to completely fall back and have a couple of my banshee's model dead when trying to run away. I have to spend so much req to reinforce and train new squads to try hold and kite as long as possible but I won the fight then suddenly enemy team dropped pod the dreads and I lost. I delayed tier 2 so bad until my opponent got a chance to build dread but the problem is, I couldn't survive tier 1 and 2 without train more squads and upgrades. Would love to see how you guys managed to hold in tier 1 without needing to purchase many squads and upgrades. Perhaps I lack some skills and micro, yes but I did managed to hold in phase 1... but it cost me too much. I think it's time for spectre to shine to deal against early heavy armor unit.
Comments
jonoliveira12
It's the Banner, that thing is an "I win" button in the early game, and allows a faction that is already super snowbally, to keep on pushing and dictating all the engagements.
Like Bonesinger Warp was put on cooldown, so must Banner at the start of the match.
AngelofDeth
I watched the replay just now and I did make some mistakes by focusing too much on bot. It's port saunderus map. I did managed to reclaim bot but because he has less casualty, so he'll get dreads earlier than me. We were both upgrading to tier 2 at the same time around 13:13 something (he's a little ahead of me) but his squads are tougher than mine because he has drop pods and banner. I should've roaming a little bit but I'm so desperate to reclaim bot and it cost me much but what can you do without webway gate = p
Volidemaru
Just eldar too expensive and too weak. Ork's boyz with scream beat banshee. How to survive? No way. Just dont play for eldar. Eldar expensive, weak, have no initiative.
AngelofDeth
I love Eldar, that's why I keep playing them but their struggle in the early is really painful.
Praxis
I use reapers for DPS and defend them with Banshees. Usually about 3 or 4 reapers with 2 or so Banshees. Banshees are far too fragile to use aggressively, if they get immobilised or disrupted they melt so don't rush out with them first. I never build DA which in my opinion are utterly useless, rangers are also too expensive and rapidly drop off in usefulness after t1. I upgrade infantry damage and health but I pretty much never purchase Quick Strike as it is expensive and only really useful if you have 4 or more squads of Banshees using it at once.
If your micro is good use Macha but I prefer Jain Zar, she can decimate gun lines and one shot devestators/lootas with her boomerang thing. Scorpions are a waste of 2 elite points.
Thunderhost
@Praxis Agree on the DA, they're simply not worth it atm
Another thing to consider when playing eldar, imo, is the importance of choosing engagements. As a mobile race you have the elements of speed and damage on your side, something that it seems not many consider. E.g first engagement: SM drops standard and pod for easy win. Move away, thus denying him that advantage and allowing you a window of 4 minutes with no drops or standards.
Another thing I see abit of, is that many forego to capture the standard which basically nullify it.
Lastly banshees with quick strike are VERY good in early engagements, just remember that they're glass canons.
AngelofDeth
Jain zar is indeed cool, but it's too long to wait for her. I'll try to harass other point without focusing too much on a single matter, maybe with that I could open up some new advantage.
The banner is difficult once Gabriel or another drop pod are out. Everytime I tried to poke or chase, another drop pod were coming.
Thunderhost
@AngelofDeth If it's early game, prior to escalation phase 2 and/or t2 only 1 drop pod should be available. I recall they have a 180 sec CD or thereabouts. Gabriel does make everything more difficult I admit, but that's when the game becomes exciting no
? There's no shame in picking another fight, esp if pods, elites and standards are all over the place.
Praxis
Eh if youre used to using 2 point elites waiting for 4 may seem like a long time but it's not really, the sooner you get her on the field the better. Macha is literally the only elite worth considering over her and it's just one extra point.
Lepreconum
Eldars are early game based on one thing -Think Before you do something(i mean it). Secondary that saving them it's heroes. Scorpions are pretty good but require eldar brain to control them properly. Avengers are nerfed to hell but they still have plasma grenades. Reapers that's only reason Eldar can play something froms start. And webway ofcourse - most ironic that without gates eldar is slowes faction at start. In fact any phase of game is weak for eldars, you just need looks closer and admit it.
Volidemaru
Low damage, low hp/shields, low mobility, no ability. Useless unit.
Praxis
They have higher dps then anything you can build early game, and although they don't have the dps of lootas/ devestators they can tear down listening posts and shield generators.
Volidemaru
++heresy redacted++. 30 dps < 50 dps you know. Lootaz have AOE. LP and shield generators not primary target. Primary target - enemy army.
Praxis
This isn't an Ork/ Eldar comparison thread
Lepreconum
Reapers have AOE and truedamage that allow them be threat on any tier of game, aganist any type of enemy. Gosh.. ppl how can you hoping to win, if you don't know elementary basics of your units.
FEDEROU
yeah Eldar was so nerefed.. Its very boring because relic didn(t see that ? now we have no one top eldar player...and 90% eldar player has stopped too play ...W8 the other patch...
jonoliveira12
No, DRs start at 32 Damage, while DAs have 40, without any upgrades.
Dark Reapers are just terrible in T1.
jonoliveira12
True damage just means that they overrule armour types, so it is nothing special. They are a hybrid unit, that does neither job very well.
FEDEROU
and seriously SM and orc are so buffed when i saw orc make masse tanbusta and yu can do nothing.. its really boring
AngelofDeth
I see, so what do you guys recommend me to wait for macha or jain zar? What about scorpion? Do anyone use them now? I found that scorpion can harass point, that's why I pick them but I know it's hard since there's no webway around the map in tier 1.
transplanar
The DPS from their tooltip is misleading. It doesn't include their splash damage. If you have a squad or two of them supporting the rest of your force and have them fire on tightly bunched up enemies, you'll see them go down fast. While they can do decent damage to structures, their real DPS only comes out against swarms of units.
MaxwellsDaemon
Agreed- Dark reapers damage is all tied to their aoe. It would be interesting to see the maths as it means their damage starts to drop off the more they kill.
Will be very interesting to see the way they play with the new Eldar t1. I can see a much more balanced spread of units coming out - spectres are a viable option now (potentially going to be overpowered).
Lepreconum
Main selling point here it fire barrage. DR extrimely dependant on right positioning and capable of turning enemy army attack. And about DA dps... did't you forget that DA dps tied to burst fire and they can shoot only about 5 seconds after that they going to reload. DR can make barrage even aganist HA units like nobs and Dread's. Only problem here it's SM gap closer with AM.
Still you can try survive early game any way you think it's works. Just remember that SM currently strongest race in game and ovecoming Eldar any every single aspect of game on any tier. Only way to oppose them it's you personal skill and elite units.
MaxwellsDaemon
For the moment I think surviving the early game is about cautious extension.
Get some early game elites - scorpions are still very helpful in surviving this period.
I cycle through a few different doctrines but improved LP is a bit of a staple. I think your best bets for actually winning engagements early game are improved grenades and banshee scream.
If you make sure you time your grenade throw to coincide with the scream it's essentially undodgeable...they may not even see it with the blind as well.
I was losing a tonne of 1v1's in the early game (only to Ork and SM) and those are the best remedies I think.
There aren't many mid or late game doctrines that really shine so at the moment committing to securing your early game is the way forward imo.
I'm between 110 and 160 rank atm depending on my most recent game - so that's the level I'm playing.
Volidemaru
Cost 435/10 - http://www.fotolink.su/v.php?id=a4ea54b66a050006463d32eb5cb1df6e
Cost 300/0 - http://www.fotolink.su/v.php?id=23e3ca3d3fb0cccd3dd82f81b6aadf2a
MaxwellsDaemon
Yeah -_- I agree.
Banshees are sub par.
transplanar
I think situationally Banshees can outperform Boyz, especially since they have access to more ways to be buffed. In terms of raw stats and disregarding other abilities and upgrades, they are certainly weaker, but it seems like they are balanced against the power they can have if you stack buffs on them.
Eldar health upgrades scale faster than Ork. They can get stealth from Scorpions and Jain Zar. SS stealth also gives +25% damage bonus. They can get 75% damage reduction from Macha. They synergize with the splash damage of DR, as they make squads clump up more tightly for melee. 2 or three squads using quick strike can nearly wipe multiple squads in seconds.
I think it comes down to where they decide to go with the design of Eldar overall. My sense is that Eldar is meant to be harder to use than other races, but with a bigger payoff if used well. If that's the case you'll never see Eldar be able to compete with other races in a "conventional" firefight. You'll always have to be more clever than your opponent to offset their baseline advantage.
jonoliveira12
The problem with that is, that the gameplay really emphasizes strong units, not tricky ones, specially on Power Core, which largely revolves around sniping objectives.
Lepreconum
QS was nerfed to nearlt zero. Only way you can do some workable damage with 3 QS it's if enemy have tier 0 infantry upgrade. Banshees currently tier 1 unit almost totally useless in mid-late game, though AM Excellent lategame unit outperforming WB totally. Gap closer/escape, true damage and great health make AM pain in the ++heresy redacted++ at any tier. AM using power swords though WB must have Power swords from start and by default. But no one gives a ++heresy redacted++.
AngelofDeth
Okay, I really have no idea how to deal against early orks' blob, except if you're going 3 DA at the start. They could train 3 boyz for only 300 req while I need to build portal and get banshee for 2 squads at the early but they're so outperformed than those boyz, I'm so frustrated because banshees costs 435 req and 10 power. Still, it's better to get 3 DA at the start but once your grenades are on cooldown, you're pretty much need to fall back. While against SM, you gotta deal against those stupid early drop pod and banner.