Wow. I am glad to see this very sensible balance updates. I agree with each one of them.
And I'm even more happy that our community got sensible too and unanimously agrees on these changes. With the exception of Diogen84 - but thankfully he promised to uninstall the game after the upcoming patch so our community is gonna be even healthier.
Looking forward to this patch - I want to start playing 1on1 again.
Also I would like to add more stuff that needs to be addressed - I guess, Relic, you are aware of it, but just in case
Tweaking an overkill Drop pod / Banner combination. Maybe moving it to T2, or reducing effects (Banner), or both. Flamer. Also close to overkill. I would like to see the range and damage reduced so the potential victims will have at least a small chance of surviving. And maybe remove ignore cover? OR just increase power cost, so using flamers would be a strategic choice, and not a no-brainer like now.
Dark Reapers. Decrease set-up/tear down time. I think it's a must Their extremely limited mobility hurts Eldar performance all the way. Banshees. Remove energy cost. I would also suggest buffing damage and/or shields, but cost reduction would be quite enough. Wraithguards. Decrease firing animation/projectile flight speed/cooldown between shots. At the moment it's extremely easy to dodge WG shots. They excel only vs static targets. And just look at their counterpart, Killa Kan... Fire Prism. It is still useless with its huuge cooldown between shots and paper thin health compared to the cost.
Thanks! And kudos for the players who are rooting for fair play and real balance between factions, and not for the cheese.
Maybe it's not the fault of poor balance, but of your lack of skill? Think before crying, and think before raging and offending others, including the developers.
Irony overload just got a whole new meaning.
Please, take that great advise you've just said here and apply it generously to yourself.
Eldars had to think about that before the patch announcement.
Annihilators can not be compared to prisms. Prisms deal splash. Truebdmg splash, can fly and have great range. Predators have only hp.
Predators are tanks, prisms are artillery.
Single skimmer like land speeder will murder prism and be murdered by predator.
Annihilators have 3 times as much DPS as prisms, annihilators are to obliterate vehicles and that's what they do, incomparably better then prisms.
Annihilators are specialists, prism is generalist artillery.
Just see how it goes- no one was building anhilators so it's hard to gauge how the unit performs.
People will be forced to now with the destructor nerf to deal with heavy armour. Maybe it didn't need the price increase...but doesn't feel out of whack to me- they're still tanky as all hell and can go toe to toe with any other vehicle in the game and win.
For all those advantages of a fire prism- it does cost more and already exists in a heavily power dependent roster.
Having no indirect fire and also being the Eldar's T3 vehicle it needs to be able to stand some comparison to big trakks and Anhilators. Especially as big trakks can function as artillery with indirect fire (weaker damage) or serve a purpose on the frontline.
Being the most expensive t3 vehicle in the game the fire prism needs to really excel at something.
If I'm honest I'd say it's ok. I don't think it's damage actually offsets it's disadvantages but it's in an ok place and can be useful and likewise can be countered.
Given the choice though I think I'd choose a 300power anhilators to push an objective over a fire prism.
Good to see Relic staff still working on this game, even if I doubt that there will be probably new race.
Still, patch is good, but I don't know much and don't care either about balance, because in my opinion it it impossible to achieve perfect balance, especially that you can't please everyone. Always there is someone dissatisfied, like Diogen84 or MrBenis.
I personally don't bother with balance changes, if my favorite unit is nerfed then oh well, but I will still occassionally use it. In the end no matter how much balance changes, true gamer adapts to the new situations and changes, doesn't it?
The amount of dissatisfied players is much bigger. They just do not want to write anything here because they feel it is useless. That third patch overlap with the new "balance" all the success of the previous patches.
I think the idea of increasing the whole Eldar infantry movespeed is a good middle ground, nice move Relic.
I agree with everything else.
That said I think:
Banshees need a slight DPS buff (TBH I liked this squad role in DoW2: almost unbeatable if you engaged it face to face but easily handled with some support).
This means I'd like to see banshees with the higher DPS than other melee T1.
We need to take care not to overwhelm orks boys though... (most changes ppl seem to be suggesting are focused on SM X Eldar scenario)
The setup and DMG buff for DarkReapers suggested by some players may not be needed anymore (cause of the movespeed buff). Let's wait and see how this current changes affect the game balance.
@Praxis said:
The Diomedes nerf makes him much more viable, really why pick 4 point Diomedes when you can take Ironmaw or Jonah for less?
It'd call it adjustment, not nerf.
He gave up some of his HP to arrive 2 minutes earlier and that's huge + he will make for a good alternative to a kill team and Jonah.
Eldar buff is a good idea, no doubts. Just look at the leaderboards now: only two of the top eldar remain playing. Others quitted or were defeated and banished from the top, due to their race weakness.
I also expected some buffs for Vypers, Dark Reapers tear down time decrease, and Fire Prism rebalance. Fire Prism should have less damage, but a lot more hp/shield. Unit for 320 power deserves it. Just compare them with Ork Big Trakks. Yes, Fire Prisms deal true damage and are better to take down infantry blobs, but this can not compensate their incredible fragility.
Special thanks to Kyre nerf, he deserved it long ago. Finally you are about to fix him that is nice.
Perhaps a small Falcon dps/AoE nerf would be good, but I will not insist on it. We'd better look at him after you will release the patch.
I agree with Shootaboy grenade nerf, despite I am Ork player (11th place in 1v1 ladder). Their grenades were too good comparing with the others.
Taunt nerf was not needed, the problem is launch+Taunt, not Taunt range. Also Taunt is a channeling skill, so it could be easily interrupted by stun grenade/stun strike and other CC skills.
May be we need some Killa Kan nerf instead: for example, let's make thier doctrinal long range rokkit "Normal-type" damage source.
But I still worry about Space Marines. I agree with @vindicarex, they are overpowered. And ASM were not the most OVP units at the SM player's disposal. The worst phenomenon is predator destructor spam. 25% damage nerf will not fix this issue at all. The problem is INSANE AoE radius, complemented with 2500 natural hp + INSANE shield doctrine. 3 and more of these tanks are effective against any Ork or Eldar army combination. I beg you to reroll predator-destructors to pre-patch state, decrease their AoE back to 3, and you may leave their cost/damage untouched.
Also dreadnoughts are too much cost/effective, they deserve a slight nerf. How many good games were ended with a dreadnought back doors? Do you think it is really fun or allow players to actually show their skill?
Flamer could be rebalanced too. If would be better to decrease damage per second, but increase the duration, or - may be - make it uninterruptible with a huge dps nerf for compensation. In current situation a single flamer could obliterate several squads within 2 seconds, but could be wasted with just one grenade. For that case, engagements with flamers became more random, that is not good at all.
P.S.: Please, leave Diomedes untouched. He is decent 4 pt elite, he is not overlooked. Combo of Gabriel+Diomedes is well-known. His shields will be too strong for 7th minute of the game, when he will be turned to 3 pt elite. This will break balance in favor of Space Marines even more. Also your planned hp-nerf for him will make Diomedes worse for a long games, because he will be not able to stay in combat long enough for providing his bonus to nearby squads. Just let him be, he's fine!
@Praxis said:
The Diomedes nerf makes him much more viable, really why pick 4 point Diomedes when you can take Ironmaw or Jonah for less?
It'd call it adjustment, not nerf.
He gave up some of his HP to arrive 2 minutes earlier and that's huge + he will make for a good alternative to a kill team and Jonah.
I think they are taking too much hp, though.
For a unit that used to have 3600, and gets nerfed to 3100, 500 hp is a huge deal. That is 2 and a half current Pred Destructor shots less to kill him.
Although very unhappy the way this game has started and believe it still has some way to go, I see this communication and changes a really good step in the right direction thanks for the info!
Well there's another thing I guess we could all agree about:
Banshees scream should be an active skill with the possibility of auto-cast.
Scream is so important to Shees survival that it hurts to see it being wasted on Buildings or overlapped (with simultaneous casts)
@Siddha said:
Well there's another thing I guess we could all agree about:
Banshees scream should be an active skill with the possibility of auto-cast.
Scream is so important to Shees survival that it hurts to see it being wasted on Buildings or overlapped (with simultaneous casts)
Actually, unless you slot a specific doctrine, scream does absolutely nothing that impact of regular charge wouldn't already do, only difference is, you can suppress on AoE instead of single squad.
Perhaps a small Falcon dps/AoE nerf would be good, but I will not insist on it. We'd better look at him after you will release the patch.
The Falcon isn't even that good, it's a niche unit that, yes is a very strong anti infantry platform in the early mid game but it cannot push against any dedicated aa nor dose it do any damage to armour or structures. Also if you build more then one your sinking resources. Every time I see some Eldar player try to spam 2 or 3 of these things they lose the game.
@Siddha said:
Well there's another thing I guess we could all agree about:
Banshees scream should be an active skill with the possibility of auto-cast.
Scream is so important to Shees survival that it hurts to see it being wasted on Buildings or overlapped (with simultaneous casts)
Actually, unless you slot a specific doctrine, scream does absolutely nothing that impact of regular charge wouldn't already do, only difference is, you can suppress on AoE instead of single squad.
I respectfully disagree. Yes, blind and silence Scream is awesome, but the vanilla scream could still be more useful for the Eldar player if we could pick the right time to use it.
In DoW2 I used Scream many times as a way to disengage. In this game this option is needed case we have awesome mechanics like Drop pods.
@Siddha said:
Well there's another thing I guess we could all agree about:
Banshees scream should be an active skill with the possibility of auto-cast.
Scream is so important to Shees survival that it hurts to see it being wasted on Buildings or overlapped (with simultaneous casts)
Actually, unless you slot a specific doctrine, scream does absolutely nothing that impact of regular charge wouldn't already do, only difference is, you can suppress on AoE instead of single squad.
I respectfully disagree. Yes, blind and silence Scream is awesome, but the vanilla scream could still be more useful for the Eldar player if we could pick the right time to use it.
In DoW2 I used Scream many times as a way to disengage. In this game this option is needed case we have awesome mechanics like Drop pods.
DoW2 scream prevents opponent from shooting and makes them extremely slow.
DoW3 scream is a weak snare only, charging melee will disregard it and ranged don't care for it.
Its useful only with doctrine slotted.
I'm highly missing 3 points here, all being nerfs to the cheesiest ork plays:
-The squigs... come one, at least make everything in range target them without clicking, if you have to constatly watch for it you just can't do anything else.
-Killa can't rocket. I've seen a turret and Solaria both get vaporized in 1.5s (i watched the replay mesuread the time) with a rush of can't.There's no counterplay if your units just get deleted.
-And i guess you seen it comming... Da Commando bomb... huge radius, damage outside the visual range (that isn't shown in any way by a marker), cast time so fast that you don't have time to react, damage so huge it wipes army no matter how big... do i really need to mention all the reasons there is to nerf the bomb... also all that within a STEALTH unit for 2 Elite Points...
@Katitof
Yeah - I'm not sure what differentiates scream from the charge and slow of ASM and non scrap slugged. Besides the visual effect and small AoE.
@Siddha said:
Well there's another thing I guess we could all agree about:
Banshees scream should be an active skill with the possibility of auto-cast.
Scream is so important to Shees survival that it hurts to see it being wasted on Buildings or overlapped (with simultaneous casts)
Actually, unless you slot a specific doctrine, scream does absolutely nothing that impact of regular charge wouldn't already do, only difference is, you can suppress on AoE instead of single squad.
I respectfully disagree. Yes, blind and silence Scream is awesome, but the vanilla scream could still be more useful for the Eldar player if we could pick the right time to use it.
In DoW2 I used Scream many times as a way to disengage. In this game this option is needed case we have awesome mechanics like Drop pods.
DoW2 scream prevents opponent from shooting and makes them extremely slow.
DoW3 scream is a weak snare only, charging melee will disregard it and ranged don't care for it.
Its useful only with doctrine slotted.
DoW2 scream applied suppression wasn't it?
Yeah, maybe the slow in vanilla can't counter the opponents charge (maybe it's not strong enough to allow it). I was thinking about leaving a melee engagement.
I'm not going to insist cause I don't have any data on it.
Even so active scream could benefit the Silence+Blind doctrine users
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Comments
DonDimon
Wow. I am glad to see this very sensible balance updates. I agree with each one of them.
And I'm even more happy that our community got sensible too and unanimously agrees on these changes. With the exception of Diogen84 - but thankfully he promised to uninstall the game after the upcoming patch so our community is gonna be even healthier.
Looking forward to this patch - I want to start playing 1on1 again.
Also I would like to add more stuff that needs to be addressed - I guess, Relic, you are aware of it, but just in case
Tweaking an overkill Drop pod / Banner combination. Maybe moving it to T2, or reducing effects (Banner), or both.
Flamer. Also close to overkill. I would like to see the range and damage reduced so the potential victims will have at least a small chance of surviving. And maybe remove ignore cover? OR just increase power cost, so using flamers would be a strategic choice, and not a no-brainer like now.
Dark Reapers. Decrease set-up/tear down time. I think it's a must
Their extremely limited mobility hurts Eldar performance all the way.
Banshees. Remove energy cost. I would also suggest buffing damage and/or shields, but cost reduction would be quite enough.
Wraithguards. Decrease firing animation/projectile flight speed/cooldown between shots. At the moment it's extremely easy to dodge WG shots. They excel only vs static targets. And just look at their counterpart, Killa Kan...
Fire Prism. It is still useless with its huuge cooldown between shots and paper thin health compared to the cost.
Thanks! And kudos for the players who are rooting for fair play and real balance between factions, and not for the cheese.
Katitof
Irony overload just got a whole new meaning.
Please, take that great advise you've just said here and apply it generously to yourself.
Predators are tanks, prisms are artillery.
Single skimmer like land speeder will murder prism and be murdered by predator.
Annihilators have 3 times as much DPS as prisms, annihilators are to obliterate vehicles and that's what they do, incomparably better then prisms.
Annihilators are specialists, prism is generalist artillery.
Not sure what your trying to argue here.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Diogen84
And they are cheaper still.
Just see how it goes- no one was building anhilators so it's hard to gauge how the unit performs.
People will be forced to now with the destructor nerf to deal with heavy armour. Maybe it didn't need the price increase...but doesn't feel out of whack to me- they're still tanky as all hell and can go toe to toe with any other vehicle in the game and win.
For all those advantages of a fire prism- it does cost more and already exists in a heavily power dependent roster.
MrBenis
If you're about to say that prisms are better than predator annihilators I'm gonna need a scotch and a cigarette.
MaxwellsDaemon
@MrBenis
I don't you can directly compare the two. The power increase really brings the two in line I think.
Plus now that Eldar can actually afford shadow spectres I think the late game match up does look a little better.
Go destructors and fire prisms and WG are more viable.
Go anhilators and Spectres can come into play.
Diogen84
Annihilator is a tank, prism is artillery.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Diogen84
You say with all the authority of ....what?
The thing is a tank artillery hybrid.
Having no indirect fire and also being the Eldar's T3 vehicle it needs to be able to stand some comparison to big trakks and Anhilators. Especially as big trakks can function as artillery with indirect fire (weaker damage) or serve a purpose on the frontline.
Being the most expensive t3 vehicle in the game the fire prism needs to really excel at something.
If I'm honest I'd say it's ok. I don't think it's damage actually offsets it's disadvantages but it's in an ok place and can be useful and likewise can be countered.
Given the choice though I think I'd choose a 300power anhilators to push an objective over a fire prism.
Draconix
Good to see Relic staff still working on this game, even if I doubt that there will be probably new race.
Still, patch is good, but I don't know much and don't care either about balance, because in my opinion it it impossible to achieve perfect balance, especially that you can't please everyone. Always there is someone dissatisfied, like Diogen84 or MrBenis.
I personally don't bother with balance changes, if my favorite unit is nerfed then oh well, but I will still occassionally use it. In the end no matter how much balance changes, true gamer adapts to the new situations and changes, doesn't it?
Diogen84
The amount of dissatisfied players is much bigger. They just do not want to write anything here because they feel it is useless. That third patch overlap with the new "balance" all the success of the previous patches.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Diogen84
At least they have you as their official spokesperson right
MrBenis
I hate because I loved.
Fitness_Lauch
Pretty glad to see some balance changes before this big tourney starts, so we might see some Eldar players competing in there
Don_Zauser
I also encourage Relic to take into consideration SM banner cooldown on start, and moving drop pod to Tier2 / or add an energy cost (25)
Siddha
I think the idea of increasing the whole Eldar infantry movespeed is a good middle ground, nice move Relic.
I agree with everything else.
That said I think:
Banshees need a slight DPS buff (TBH I liked this squad role in DoW2: almost unbeatable if you engaged it face to face but easily handled with some support).
This means I'd like to see banshees with the higher DPS than other melee T1.
We need to take care not to overwhelm orks boys though... (most changes ppl seem to be suggesting are focused on SM X Eldar scenario)
The setup and DMG buff for DarkReapers suggested by some players may not be needed anymore (cause of the movespeed buff). Let's wait and see how this current changes affect the game balance.
Don_Zauser
General consensus on slight Banshee DPS buff
Praxis
The Diomedes nerf makes him much more viable, really why pick 4 point Diomedes when you can take Ironmaw or Jonah for less?
Katitof
It'd call it adjustment, not nerf.
He gave up some of his HP to arrive 2 minutes earlier and that's huge + he will make for a good alternative to a kill team and Jonah.
YbuBaKa
Thank you for the long-awaited balance changes!
Eldar buff is a good idea, no doubts. Just look at the leaderboards now: only two of the top eldar remain playing. Others quitted or were defeated and banished from the top, due to their race weakness.
I also expected some buffs for Vypers, Dark Reapers tear down time decrease, and Fire Prism rebalance. Fire Prism should have less damage, but a lot more hp/shield. Unit for 320 power deserves it. Just compare them with Ork Big Trakks. Yes, Fire Prisms deal true damage and are better to take down infantry blobs, but this can not compensate their incredible fragility.
Special thanks to Kyre nerf, he deserved it long ago. Finally you are about to fix him that is nice.
Perhaps a small Falcon dps/AoE nerf would be good, but I will not insist on it. We'd better look at him after you will release the patch.
I agree with Shootaboy grenade nerf, despite I am Ork player (11th place in 1v1 ladder). Their grenades were too good comparing with the others.
Taunt nerf was not needed, the problem is launch+Taunt, not Taunt range. Also Taunt is a channeling skill, so it could be easily interrupted by stun grenade/stun strike and other CC skills.
May be we need some Killa Kan nerf instead: for example, let's make thier doctrinal long range rokkit "Normal-type" damage source.
But I still worry about Space Marines. I agree with @vindicarex, they are overpowered. And ASM were not the most OVP units at the SM player's disposal. The worst phenomenon is predator destructor spam. 25% damage nerf will not fix this issue at all. The problem is INSANE AoE radius, complemented with 2500 natural hp + INSANE shield doctrine. 3 and more of these tanks are effective against any Ork or Eldar army combination. I beg you to reroll predator-destructors to pre-patch state, decrease their AoE back to 3, and you may leave their cost/damage untouched.
Also dreadnoughts are too much cost/effective, they deserve a slight nerf. How many good games were ended with a dreadnought back doors? Do you think it is really fun or allow players to actually show their skill?
Flamer could be rebalanced too. If would be better to decrease damage per second, but increase the duration, or - may be - make it uninterruptible with a huge dps nerf for compensation. In current situation a single flamer could obliterate several squads within 2 seconds, but could be wasted with just one grenade. For that case, engagements with flamers became more random, that is not good at all.
P.S.: Please, leave Diomedes untouched. He is decent 4 pt elite, he is not overlooked. Combo of Gabriel+Diomedes is well-known. His shields will be too strong for 7th minute of the game, when he will be turned to 3 pt elite. This will break balance in favor of Space Marines even more. Also your planned hp-nerf for him will make Diomedes worse for a long games, because he will be not able to stay in combat long enough for providing his bonus to nearby squads. Just let him be, he's fine!
jonoliveira12
I think they are taking too much hp, though.
For a unit that used to have 3600, and gets nerfed to 3100, 500 hp is a huge deal. That is 2 and a half current Pred Destructor shots less to kill him.
LordyFlashheart
Although very unhappy the way this game has started and believe it still has some way to go, I see this communication and changes a really good step in the right direction thanks for the info!
Siddha
Well there's another thing I guess we could all agree about:
Banshees scream should be an active skill with the possibility of auto-cast.
Scream is so important to Shees survival that it hurts to see it being wasted on Buildings or overlapped (with simultaneous casts)
Katitof
Actually, unless you slot a specific doctrine, scream does absolutely nothing that impact of regular charge wouldn't already do, only difference is, you can suppress on AoE instead of single squad.
MaxwellsDaemon
Actually yes- this is a change I think really should happen. It also adds the reliable crowd control I think Eldar need.
Could cancel flamers and also add a little more late game relevance.
Praxis
The Falcon isn't even that good, it's a niche unit that, yes is a very strong anti infantry platform in the early mid game but it cannot push against any dedicated aa nor dose it do any damage to armour or structures. Also if you build more then one your sinking resources. Every time I see some Eldar player try to spam 2 or 3 of these things they lose the game.
Praxis
double post
Siddha
I respectfully disagree. Yes, blind and silence Scream is awesome, but the vanilla scream could still be more useful for the Eldar player if we could pick the right time to use it.
In DoW2 I used Scream many times as a way to disengage. In this game this option is needed case we have awesome mechanics like Drop pods.
Katitof
DoW2 scream prevents opponent from shooting and makes them extremely slow.
DoW3 scream is a weak snare only, charging melee will disregard it and ranged don't care for it.
Its useful only with doctrine slotted.
Fulgrim
I'm highly missing 3 points here, all being nerfs to the cheesiest ork plays:
-The squigs... come one, at least make everything in range target them without clicking, if you have to constatly watch for it you just can't do anything else.
-Killa can't rocket. I've seen a turret and Solaria both get vaporized in 1.5s (i watched the replay mesuread the time) with a rush of can't.There's no counterplay if your units just get deleted.
-And i guess you seen it comming... Da Commando bomb... huge radius, damage outside the visual range (that isn't shown in any way by a marker), cast time so fast that you don't have time to react, damage so huge it wipes army no matter how big... do i really need to mention all the reasons there is to nerf the bomb... also all that within a STEALTH unit for 2 Elite Points...
MaxwellsDaemon
@Katitof
Yeah - I'm not sure what differentiates scream from the charge and slow of ASM and non scrap slugged. Besides the visual effect and small AoE.
Siddha
DoW2 scream applied suppression wasn't it?
Yeah, maybe the slow in vanilla can't counter the opponents charge (maybe it's not strong enough to allow it). I was thinking about leaving a melee engagement.
I'm not going to insist cause I don't have any data on it.
Even so active scream could benefit the Silence+Blind doctrine users