pls DONT increase BONESINGER and SHADOW SPECTRE movement speed.it will result in over buff i think
just increase DIRE AVENGER+BANSHEE+DARK REAPER move speed
everything else seems good
@aghabozorg said:
pls DONT increase BONESINGER and SHADOW SPECTRE movement speed.it will result in over buff i think
just increase DIRE AVENGER+BANSHEE+DARK REAPER move speed
everything else seems good
I'll let you in on a little secret.
Bonesinger current movement speed is 5.
Servitor and gretchins are 6.
Specters are still slow, just not sluggish anymore, walkers/heavy infantry was unable to escape from them anyway and faster moving vehicles and tanks could or just obliterated them anyway.
@MrBenis said:
How do you figure that eldar are gonna OP on the early game when they get avg 16% speed increase and 14% more range on only dire avengers. I just don't get it. The problem is eldar having to sit still. Ok so you get 5 distance units advantage over SM and shootas now which could let you kite some tiny amount. What's the movement rate anyway? Is it 5 per second? 6 per second? If all you get is 1s grace between being shot at you'd need a ping gifted from heaven itself to not have that advantage erased. I live in aus and a lot of the time I'm playing with 400ms of ping or worse. Whatever the rate of movement is, if an enemy unit can cover it in under a second I'd consider that a very backhanded buff. It might be useful for running away though, for what that's worth, while tacticals with FOTM shoot you in the back lol.
We know you guys won't be happy until you can A-move DA in a blob and win. Your t1 units have highest speed and shields to buff them from losses and give you better trades so what is the problem? I really don't understand. You don't want to have to micro your units?
Even Stikkbombs are planned for nerfed now when they had the smallest AOE and were easiest to dodge of them all, especially with Eldars speed. There was counter play but lets just complain constantly because we shouldn't have to micro our units and its its unfair. We get that change instead of a change to tactical flamer imba which allows it to suddenly appears on one of the tacticals you are meleeing and torches your squads without warning.
These changes seem really reactionary to whatever is the majority of forum complaints and it makes me wonder if the original balance team is not part of these decisions.
I get that standard+drop pod+ tireless +750 hp workers is overpowered but can't we just fix that BS instead of this balance see-saw where it goes to one extreme and then the other?
Why is Eldar so weak against Ork early game exactly?
Eldar t1 just don't trade cost effectively. Orks can get more units on the field more cheaply and Eldar can't withstand them effectively.
Stikk bombs just do too much damage...squads disappeared and with shoota boys already being a cost effective unit they could be spammed out. This made it really hard to engage them.
Eldar can't do this with DA as investing that much in a cost inefficient unit doesn't work out.
Eldar t1 just don't trade cost effectively. Orks can get more units on the field more cheaply and Eldar can't withstand them effectively.
Stikk bombs just do too much damage...squads disappeared and with shoota boys already being a cost effective unit they could be spammed out. This made it really hard to engage them.
Eldar can't do this with DA as investing that much in a cost inefficient unit doesn't work out.
How do they not trade effectively? That makes no sense. You have shields, you can harass and inflct model losses without taking any in return. DA are 330 Req and shootas are 350 and require scrap upgrades to get a grenade. You should not be losing DA at all in the early game.
Why aren't you people using hit and run tactics like eldar are supposed to do?
Eldar t1 just don't trade cost effectively. Orks can get more units on the field more cheaply and Eldar can't withstand them effectively.
Stikk bombs just do too much damage...squads disappeared and with shoota boys already being a cost effective unit they could be spammed out. This made it really hard to engage them.
Eldar can't do this with DA as investing that much in a cost inefficient unit doesn't work out.
How do they not trade effectively? That makes no sense. You have shields, you can harass and inflct model losses without taking any in return. DA are 330 Req and shootas are 350 and require scrap upgrades to get a grenade. You should not be losing DA at all before trukks can come out.
Why aren't you people using hit and run tactics like eldar are supposed to do?
No you cannot, you will just get caught out, and die. DAs are too fragile to do anything, even the grenade is laughable.
They need an edge, they are not Guardians, they are Dire Avengers, the extra range will allow for good skirmishing.
@MaxwellsDaemon be warned, you're arguing with someone who uses falcon to counter nobz, laws of logic are not applied, unless they are completely stretched to the limit of insanity.
Eldar t1 just don't trade cost effectively. Orks can get more units on the field more cheaply and Eldar can't withstand them effectively.
Stikk bombs just do too much damage...squads disappeared and with shoota boys already being a cost effective unit they could be spammed out. This made it really hard to engage them.
Eldar can't do this with DA as investing that much in a cost inefficient unit doesn't work out.
How do they not trade effectively? That makes no sense. You have shields, you can harass and inflct model losses without taking any in return. DA are 330 Req and shootas are 350 and require scrap upgrades to get a grenade. You should not be losing DA at all before trukks can come out.
Why aren't you people using hit and run tactics like eldar are supposed to do?
No you cannot, you will just get caught out, and die. DAs are too fragile to do anything, even the grenade is laughable.
They need an edge, they are not Guardians, they are Dire Avengers, the extra range will allow for good skirmishing.
Hi Jono. We played 1v1 remember? I played Eldar, my most unfamiliar race, and beat you in tier 1 with 3 DA to make a point.
I'm sorry but imo you just aren't nearly a good enough player to be saying what is what in terms of balance, and neither is Katitof.
How are you DA getting caught out? If they did then you made a mistake and you should be punished for it.
@Kat_RE
AUTARCH KYRE
After units are pulled to him, they are now knocked back, scattering them over a 15m area and preventing them from clumping on top of one another when landing
Reduced speed of Eldritch Winds projectile from 15 to 12
I agree that he is too cheesy at the moment, but adding a knockback after he pulls in units makes his Plasma Grenade Barrage ability something we now have to use as an ambush tool rather than a combo mechanic to use with his pull. The explosion radius is far to small to maneuver him around like that. It is now going to cost more time to micro him around to hit the circle of enemies. I'm fine with micro, but the more time we spend on micro the more time it takes away from maneuvering our army around the battlefield.
Suggestion: Maybe when he pulls units in, they stay clumped as though they are shoulder-to-shoulder rather than squishing them together like a play-doe ball. Knocking them 15m away making us have to micro Kyre around in a large circle nearly nullifies his combo effectiveness. This way it decreases the damage done to all units at one time while still requiring some micro to make his Plasma Grenade Barrage effective to all units.
@frumpylumps
Can't believe you are buffing shadow specters just because people are too dumb to use them.
Man, you are so hung up on those ++heresy redacted++ Spectres. lol All they did was lower the Power cost and expand their formation. I wouldn't necessarily call that a buff. More like we are now more capable of fielding an anti-armor unit. You know, since the early-mid game Anti armor was Dark Reapers who are basically a stationary turret because they have nearly no movement once deployed in a large combat scenario. Their teleport is not even useful to me and is a waste if selected.
Other thoughts:
I understand that I play Eldar primarily, but I am not looking to make Eldar OP again.
Fire Prism - still a little weak in comparison to the other Artillary style units. To make them the least bit effective, I am forced to try and field at least 4 or 5 to do any real damage and at their cost of Power, it's more effective (still) to just field Wraithgaurd since I have doctrines that make them more effective in the grand scheme of the fight. Also, unless I am firing at a large clump of blobbed units, the charge-up Explosion time after the initial shot is a bit too long. That true damage balance change isn't really seen, IMO. Also, their teleport doctrine should have it's teleport distance increased as I mostly use it for getting out of terrible situations like dodging that Orbital Strike or Drop Pod from SM.
Wraithlord - Give him his global soul recall back or at least increase the effective range to 200-250. I am curious what your data is on how many times people actually use the Wraithlord soul recall to pull their units, but I bet it's nearly non-existant now. I feel like giving him his global (or increase) back makes him a bit more useful in larger fights when I can use my Wraith's to defend a counter position and (if successful) pull my Wraith's in to my front line to help the rest of my army.
Eldrich Storm - A useless Eldar ability. Even if it's switched over to Conduit form, this ability does not do nearly as much damage as it's Ork or SM counterpart. I mearly gives the illusion that you may die, instead of actually being effective in battle. I always think to myself during a fight if fielding it for even 2 points at start is worth it. It always falls on No.
Space Marine Orbital Strike A.k.a. Hand of God - Not sure about this in a 1v1 scenario, but in a 2v2 or 3v3 scenario this ability is smites everything. It destroys everything it touches and also disables your 9 point elite for what seems like an eternity. It wipes standard units in mere seconds. You know that army you just built up to make a push, gone. You know those building you have at your base, evaporated. You know that power core you tried so hard to defend, melted. I'm not saying nerf it to all hell, but tweak it, please.
Ah yeah I had forgotten about the shields. I'll turn them on next time.
Yeah you're right -so what I'll do is fire my shuriken catapults and then head off to let my shields recharge once my guns overheat.....I'm sure the orks won't do anything dastardly while I'm gone like blow up my webway gate or savage my resource generators.
Thank you sensei.....teach me more.
...Ahem, sorry, obviously sarcasm. Have you played as Eldar in the match up Frumpylumps?
Shoota boyz have more health and a higher sustained damage out put- which in the end means they are currently trading better in most cases. Plus with Sluggas already running around as cheap fodder you are forced to run around a fair bit seeing as Orks can overall pump more units out...plus Waagh. Then suddenly this difference is huge.
Eldar t1 just don't trade cost effectively. Orks can get more units on the field more cheaply and Eldar can't withstand them effectively.
Stikk bombs just do too much damage...squads disappeared and with shoota boys already being a cost effective unit they could be spammed out. This made it really hard to engage them.
Eldar can't do this with DA as investing that much in a cost inefficient unit doesn't work out.
I played Maxwell. He outmicrod me in these engagements but my waaghed up fire power and eldar t1 weakness won me the game(Orc vs eldar is same as SM vs eldar). The other few eldars I faced died pretty fast in T1. I was rank 200 when the patch came out on eldar(only played 8 games, won 7)- when i came back from vacation, I was top 100. Than i played a few games and was rank 300 .
I rly like the proposed patch notes:
I'd like to see one thing so: a buff to rangers: the SM equivalent is better, costs less power and has no unlock. Removing the unlock would make 1-2 rangers in ur army and for scouting a viable adition. Make the ranger a more viable addition.
Another thing I'd loved to see is a maybe slight banshee buff- so banshees are seen in games, rangers on the other hand are not existant...
@frumpylumps I play eldar and Orcs, I cant win games on eldar after the and I'm patch doing fine on orc(got some problems with SM, so eldar was quite easy...)
Cool changes overall! Thanks for continuing to iterate on balance and listening to player feedback
Excited about the reduced power cost on shadow specters, hopefully it doesn't put them too far in the other direction. They've always been too squishy for their cost so this definitely will help.
Also I'm not sure if the speed nerf to Kyer's wind ability was warranted. Please let's give him a melee charge to make up for it
The mobility change to elder is interesting. I like the reliance on webway gates and the way it preserves the flavor of Eldar. Hopefully, the speed buff doesn't switch webway gates from being "necessary" to "optional".
Ah yeah I had forgotten about the shields. I'll turn them on next time.
Yeah you're right -so what I'll do is fire my shuriken catapults and then head off to let my shields recharge once my guns overheat.....I'm sure the orks won't do anything dastardly while I'm gone like blow up my webway gate or savage my resource generators.
Thank you sensei.....teach me more.
...Ahem, sorry, obviously sarcasm. Have you played as Eldar in the match up Frumpylumps?
Shoota boyz have more health and a higher sustained damage out put- which in the end means they are currently trading better in most cases. Plus with Sluggas already running around as cheap fodder you are forced to run around a fair bit seeing as Orks can overall pump more units out...plus Waagh. Then suddenly this difference is huge.
Which part do you disagree with?
Disagree that higher sustained damage means they are trading better. The shields eldar have actually regenerate while they are firing. The only time DA would ever lose to shootahs is if they couldn't run away to abuse their shield advantage. I'm don't know if it is true that Orks can pump out more units.
Ork can't even leave their base without Waaah in the early game, so Eldar can be inflcting damage that entire time. The only argument I can see that I could see have validity is that the harass damage isn't effective enough to deter orKs advancement into nobz but I haven't played a lot of Eldar players who know how to put the pressure on early and keep it on. I can see how if you sat back and did nothing to the ork player, that Waah +shootah would be hard to stop if you were only playing defensively.
I feel Eldar is somewhat like the terrans of Starcraft, you need to harass your opponent and keep the pressure on to keep their numbers down and delay their tech, and so many people don't seem to know how or don't seem to want to do that. I suppose why we are having turrets implemented.
I got to rank 70 something with Ork and played mostly before Eldar nerfs but haven't played much after that since SM was so overbuffed and because of game breaking bugs.
How many eldar players even get shield regeneration upgrade when they go DA? Remember when people were complaining about Trukk spam? Eldar players are complaining without even utilizing the tools available to them. I've yet to see a single Eldar player use the DR teleport doctrine that would most certainly help in surviving a Waaah.
Its just always so much easier to blame the game than blame yourself and look what you can do to improve. This kind of reaction from an more micro intensive faction should be expected, and ignored.
I don't see any players at the top of the Eldar ladder complaining except a couple who got there by abusing OP mechanics. If babyubyu comes on here, an active Eldar player with 92% win rate, #2 on Eldar ladder, and says Eldar UP then I can view that as someone who is credible.
I'd actually like them to have more health or a higher shield value. The dps is fine.
Eldar have not a single low cost Elite tank unit unlike SM. You often have to get vision before you actually can use the range of reapers - that and to protect them is why you build banshees in the first place. But if banshees are dying in no time while walking up to the enemies, a dps increase is just stupid. They need more defenses guys.
Overall it would be a nice patch and thanks Relic for balancing
Ah yeah I had forgotten about the shields. I'll turn them on next time.
Yeah you're right -so what I'll do is fire my shuriken catapults and then head off to let my shields recharge once my guns overheat.....I'm sure the orks won't do anything dastardly while I'm gone like blow up my webway gate or savage my resource generators.
Thank you sensei.....teach me more.
...Ahem, sorry, obviously sarcasm. Have you played as Eldar in the match up Frumpylumps?
Shoota boyz have more health and a higher sustained damage out put- which in the end means they are currently trading better in most cases. Plus with Sluggas already running around as cheap fodder you are forced to run around a fair bit seeing as Orks can overall pump more units out...plus Waagh. Then suddenly this difference is huge.
Which part do you disagree with?
Disagree that higher sustained damage means they are trading better. The shields eldar have actually regenerate while they are firing. The only time DA would ever lose to shootahs is if they couldn't run away to abuse their shield advantage. I'm don't know if it is true that Orks can pump out more units. Ork can't even leave their base without Waaah in the early game, so Eldar can be inflcting damage that entire time. The only argument I can see that I could see have validity is that the harass damage isn't effective enough to deter orKs advancement into nobz but I haven't played a lot of Eldar players who know how to put the pressure on early and keep it on. I can see how if you sat back and did nothing to the ork player, that Waah +shootah would be hard to stop if you were only playing defensively.
I feel Eldar is somewhat like the terrans of Starcraft, you need to harass your opponent and keep the pressure on to keep their numbers down and delay their tech, and so many people don't seem to know how or don't seem to want to do that.
I got to rank 70 something with Ork and played mostly before Eldar nerfs but haven't played much after that since SM was so overbuffed and because of game breaking bugs.
How many eldar players even get shield regeneration upgrade when they go DA? Remember when people were complaining about Trukk spam? Eldar players are complaining without even utilizing the tools available to them. I've yet to see a single Eldar player use the DR teleport doctrine that would most certainly help in surviving a Waaah.
Its just always so much easier to blame the game than blame yourself and look what you can do to improve. This kind of reaction from an more micro intensive faction should be expected, and ignored.
I don't see any players at the top of the Eldar ladder complaining except a couple who got there by abusing OP mechanics.
Like you said you play ork, have you really played eldar since the patch? Eldar players are stuck with not many options place webway and go aspect portal and guess what now they are down a lot of power or place webway & go soul shrine even then that means they need to upgrade health or damage to DAs over shield regeneration because DA have a short range & lower DPS compared to Tacs, Shoota Boyz. Then you forget that or just don't know that the DR teleport doctrine is trash it doesn't work 80 percent of the time, you obviously are oblivious to current circumstances with eldar.
Whne wiil Relic finally get to improve the game's interface? Why do doctrine icons above units are so badly drawn, that you can see pixels when you close the camera up? Why do you have to gather players back in the lobby once the match is over? Why can't you maike collor distinguish may allies in 3x3 and 4x4 and other gamemodes? Why there's no hotkey like coh2? Why do stun effects are so bad? Why do bushes conceal Paladins and buildings? Why do melee units can attack Phantoms? All these are bugs are of a Steam Greenlight project, not of an AAA project 60 bucks per copy.
Ah yeah I had forgotten about the shields. I'll turn them on next time.
Yeah you're right -so what I'll do is fire my shuriken catapults and then head off to let my shields recharge once my guns overheat.....I'm sure the orks won't do anything dastardly while I'm gone like blow up my webway gate or savage my resource generators.
Thank you sensei.....teach me more.
...Ahem, sorry, obviously sarcasm. Have you played as Eldar in the match up Frumpylumps?
Shoota boyz have more health and a higher sustained damage out put- which in the end means they are currently trading better in most cases. Plus with Sluggas already running around as cheap fodder you are forced to run around a fair bit seeing as Orks can overall pump more units out...plus Waagh. Then suddenly this difference is huge.
Which part do you disagree with?
Disagree that higher sustained damage means they are trading better. The shields eldar have actually regenerate while they are firing. The only time DA would ever lose to shootahs is if they couldn't run away to abuse their shield advantage. I'm don't know if it is true that Orks can pump out more units. Ork can't even leave their base without Waaah in the early game, so Eldar can be inflcting damage that entire time. The only argument I can see that I could see have validity is that the harass damage isn't effective enough to deter orKs advancement into nobz but I haven't played a lot of Eldar players who know how to put the pressure on early and keep it on. I can see how if you sat back and did nothing to the ork player, that Waah +shootah would be hard to stop if you were only playing defensively.
I feel Eldar is somewhat like the terrans of Starcraft, you need to harass your opponent and keep the pressure on to keep their numbers down and delay their tech, and so many people don't seem to know how or don't seem to want to do that.
I got to rank 70 something with Ork and played mostly before Eldar nerfs but haven't played much after that since SM was so overbuffed and because of game breaking bugs.
How many eldar players even get shield regeneration upgrade when they go DA? Remember when people were complaining about Trukk spam? Eldar players are complaining without even utilizing the tools available to them. I've yet to see a single Eldar player use the DR teleport doctrine that would most certainly help in surviving a Waaah.
Its just always so much easier to blame the game than blame yourself and look what you can do to improve. This kind of reaction from an more micro intensive faction should be expected, and ignored.
I don't see any players at the top of the Eldar ladder complaining except a couple who got there by abusing OP mechanics.
Maybe u enlighten me which top eldar thinks balance is fine . I dont even see anyone streaming eldar(except vindi from time to time). Eldar T1 is by the weakest u should look up the model parameters and do some math on it. Or if u dont like math than find someone testing units in a duel than u'll notice that Eldar units are complete garbage without fleet of foot. Bc of the dire vengar being stronger prepatch and t1 webway gate teleport and bonesing instant capping the map was ridicolous OP nobody even noticed how weak T1 eldar units are.
Webways arent free either and tend to get easily sniped, so there is literally no reason to pretend fleet of foot is better than waaagh ( i dont want any waaagh nerfs ) or SM droppods+standard.
Ah yeah I had forgotten about the shields. I'll turn them on next time.
Yeah you're right -so what I'll do is fire my shuriken catapults and then head off to let my shields recharge once my guns overheat.....I'm sure the orks won't do anything dastardly while I'm gone like blow up my webway gate or savage my resource generators.
Thank you sensei.....teach me more.
...Ahem, sorry, obviously sarcasm. Have you played as Eldar in the match up Frumpylumps?
Shoota boyz have more health and a higher sustained damage out put- which in the end means they are currently trading better in most cases. Plus with Sluggas already running around as cheap fodder you are forced to run around a fair bit seeing as Orks can overall pump more units out...plus Waagh. Then suddenly this difference is huge.
Which part do you disagree with?
Disagree that higher sustained damage means they are trading better. The shields eldar have actually regenerate while they are firing. The only time DA would ever lose to shootahs is if they couldn't run away to abuse their shield advantage. I'm don't know if it is true that Orks can pump out more units. Ork can't even leave their base without Waaah in the early game, so Eldar can be inflcting damage that entire time. The only argument I can see that I could see have validity is that the harass damage isn't effective enough to deter orKs advancement into nobz but I haven't played a lot of Eldar players who know how to put the pressure on early and keep it on. I can see how if you sat back and did nothing to the ork player, that Waah +shootah would be hard to stop if you were only playing defensively.
I feel Eldar is somewhat like the terrans of Starcraft, you need to harass your opponent and keep the pressure on to keep their numbers down and delay their tech, and so many people don't seem to know how or don't seem to want to do that.
I got to rank 70 something with Ork and played mostly before Eldar nerfs but haven't played much after that since SM was so overbuffed and because of game breaking bugs.
How many eldar players even get shield regeneration upgrade when they go DA? Remember when people were complaining about Trukk spam? Eldar players are complaining without even utilizing the tools available to them. I've yet to see a single Eldar player use the DR teleport doctrine that would most certainly help in surviving a Waaah.
Its just always so much easier to blame the game than blame yourself and look what you can do to improve. This kind of reaction from an more micro intensive faction should be expected, and ignored.
I don't see any players at the top of the Eldar ladder complaining except a couple who got there by abusing OP mechanics.
Like you said you play ork, have you really played eldar since the patch? Eldar players are stuck with not many options place webway and go aspect portal and guess what now they are down a lot of power or place webway & go soul shrine even then that means they need to upgrade health or damage to DAs over shield regeneration because DA have a short range & lower DPS compared to Tacs, Shoota Boyz. Then you forget that or just don't know that the DR teleport doctrine is trash it doesn't work 80 percent of the time, you obviously are oblivious to current circumstances with eldar.
It doesn't work 80% of the time? Why?
I could be mistaken but I thought Shootah boyz have the same range as DA now, both 30.
I'd quite happily defer to better players if they find a way to make something work or disagree if I enjoy success with a strat.
I have played around a fair bit with pretty much every mechanic Eldar currently have to offer and honestly most of them are substandard.
The DR doctrine I want to love - it sounds great but then you go to use it and it takes ages to set up with the set up and de-set up time of reapers then you find out it lasts for (I can't remember exactly how long but a fairly limited time)....then you go to use it and you realise the cast animation takes a while and 9/10 you get stunned out of it. If you aren't getting stunned out if it then your dark reapers weren't getting initiated on and you may as well leave them doing damage.
In order for it to be worth anything it needs to cast quicker and last much longer.
I think I'd just refrain from commenting too much or forming opinions on something I hadn't much experience with...obviously you have skill but you need to play the patch in it's current state to be able to form valid opinions of it!
It doesn't work 80% of the time because the timer is about 30sec only. This means the reapers have to setup their teleport doctrine which allready takes time and disables them while doing that and then they have 30 sec to use this teleporting device which is a complete joke because you never are able to setup a fight, trade well and then use the teleport within 30 sec.
After those 30sec the tp device ability goes on cooldown for a long duration (i don't remember how long exactly but it was way to long so i realised its a trash doctrine).
TIL ive been sitting on 40+ pop of gretchin lategame. no wonder i cap out so quick when i get the morkanaught. my poor upkeep.
@frumpylumps
Shield regen slowly ramps up after they havnt been hit for a while. If they are regening in combat its cause you've been ignoring them for a long ++heresy redacted++ time and somehow havnt gotten hit by a stray pistol shot.
I'd quite happily defer to better players if they find a way to make something work or disagree if I enjoy success with a strat.
I have played around a fair bit with pretty much every mechanic Eldar currently have to offer and honestly most of them are substandard.
The DR doctrine I want to love - it sounds great but then you go to use it and it takes ages to set up with the set up and de-set up time of reapers then you find out it lasts for (I
Its more useful against Waah than anything. You see the Wah and you know its coming so you can lay your traps, but this much micro is apparently too much for "Eldar players". This is a doctrine which has a specific function to deal with that, and isn't overly good, though I could see a few more second added to its duration.
Baiting into attacking the low ground and then teleporting onto the high ground will buy vital seconds to outlast an orK waah, and Orks are nothing without it.
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Comments
Praxis
Eldar desperately needed the speed increase, right now theyre pretty much forced to stay inside web way radius and give up a lot of map control
aghabozorg
pls DONT increase BONESINGER and SHADOW SPECTRE movement speed.it will result in over buff i think
just increase DIRE AVENGER+BANSHEE+DARK REAPER move speed
everything else seems good
Katitof
I'll let you in on a little secret.
Bonesinger current movement speed is 5.
Servitor and gretchins are 6.
Specters are still slow, just not sluggish anymore, walkers/heavy infantry was unable to escape from them anyway and faster moving vehicles and tanks could or just obliterated them anyway.
Siddha
Is there any ETA on this?
frumpylumps
We know you guys won't be happy until you can A-move DA in a blob and win. Your t1 units have highest speed and shields to buff them from losses and give you better trades so what is the problem? I really don't understand. You don't want to have to micro your units?
Even Stikkbombs are planned for nerfed now when they had the smallest AOE and were easiest to dodge of them all, especially with Eldars speed. There was counter play but lets just complain constantly because we shouldn't have to micro our units and its its unfair. We get that change instead of a change to tactical flamer imba which allows it to suddenly appears on one of the tacticals you are meleeing and torches your squads without warning.
These changes seem really reactionary to whatever is the majority of forum complaints and it makes me wonder if the original balance team is not part of these decisions.
I get that standard+drop pod+ tireless +750 hp workers is overpowered but can't we just fix that BS instead of this balance see-saw where it goes to one extreme and then the other?
Why is Eldar so weak against Ork early game exactly?
MaxwellsDaemon
@frumpylumps
Eldar t1 just don't trade cost effectively. Orks can get more units on the field more cheaply and Eldar can't withstand them effectively.
Stikk bombs just do too much damage...squads disappeared and with shoota boys already being a cost effective unit they could be spammed out. This made it really hard to engage them.
Eldar can't do this with DA as investing that much in a cost inefficient unit doesn't work out.
frumpylumps
How do they not trade effectively? That makes no sense. You have shields, you can harass and inflct model losses without taking any in return. DA are 330 Req and shootas are 350 and require scrap upgrades to get a grenade. You should not be losing DA at all in the early game.
Why aren't you people using hit and run tactics like eldar are supposed to do?
jonoliveira12
No you cannot, you will just get caught out, and die. DAs are too fragile to do anything, even the grenade is laughable.
They need an edge, they are not Guardians, they are Dire Avengers, the extra range will allow for good skirmishing.
Katitof
@MaxwellsDaemon be warned, you're arguing with someone who uses falcon to counter nobz, laws of logic are not applied, unless they are completely stretched to the limit of insanity.
frumpylumps
Hi Jono. We played 1v1 remember? I played Eldar, my most unfamiliar race, and beat you in tier 1 with 3 DA to make a point.
I'm sorry but imo you just aren't nearly a good enough player to be saying what is what in terms of balance, and neither is Katitof.
How are you DA getting caught out? If they did then you made a mistake and you should be punished for it.
TheSi1entKing
How about the sm WHIRLWIND everybody want to pretend that isn't a IMBA unit.
TOGgledShot
Here are my thoughts on certain things:
Reduced speed of Eldritch Winds projectile from 15 to 12
I agree that he is too cheesy at the moment, but adding a knockback after he pulls in units makes his Plasma Grenade Barrage ability something we now have to use as an ambush tool rather than a combo mechanic to use with his pull. The explosion radius is far to small to maneuver him around like that. It is now going to cost more time to micro him around to hit the circle of enemies. I'm fine with micro, but the more time we spend on micro the more time it takes away from maneuvering our army around the battlefield.
Suggestion: Maybe when he pulls units in, they stay clumped as though they are shoulder-to-shoulder rather than squishing them together like a play-doe ball. Knocking them 15m away making us have to micro Kyre around in a large circle nearly nullifies his combo effectiveness. This way it decreases the damage done to all units at one time while still requiring some micro to make his Plasma Grenade Barrage effective to all units.
Man, you are so hung up on those ++heresy redacted++ Spectres. lol All they did was lower the Power cost and expand their formation. I wouldn't necessarily call that a buff. More like we are now more capable of fielding an anti-armor unit. You know, since the early-mid game Anti armor was Dark Reapers who are basically a stationary turret because they have nearly no movement once deployed in a large combat scenario. Their teleport is not even useful to me and is a waste if selected.
Other thoughts:
I understand that I play Eldar primarily, but I am not looking to make Eldar OP again.
Fire Prism - still a little weak in comparison to the other Artillary style units. To make them the least bit effective, I am forced to try and field at least 4 or 5 to do any real damage and at their cost of Power, it's more effective (still) to just field Wraithgaurd since I have doctrines that make them more effective in the grand scheme of the fight. Also, unless I am firing at a large clump of blobbed units, the charge-up Explosion time after the initial shot is a bit too long. That true damage balance change isn't really seen, IMO. Also, their teleport doctrine should have it's teleport distance increased as I mostly use it for getting out of terrible situations like dodging that Orbital Strike or Drop Pod from SM.
Wraithlord - Give him his global soul recall back or at least increase the effective range to 200-250. I am curious what your data is on how many times people actually use the Wraithlord soul recall to pull their units, but I bet it's nearly non-existant now. I feel like giving him his global (or increase) back makes him a bit more useful in larger fights when I can use my Wraith's to defend a counter position and (if successful) pull my Wraith's in to my front line to help the rest of my army.
Eldrich Storm - A useless Eldar ability. Even if it's switched over to Conduit form, this ability does not do nearly as much damage as it's Ork or SM counterpart. I mearly gives the illusion that you may die, instead of actually being effective in battle. I always think to myself during a fight if fielding it for even 2 points at start is worth it. It always falls on No.
Space Marine Orbital Strike A.k.a. Hand of God - Not sure about this in a 1v1 scenario, but in a 2v2 or 3v3 scenario this ability is smites everything. It destroys everything it touches and also disables your 9 point elite for what seems like an eternity. It wipes standard units in mere seconds. You know that army you just built up to make a push, gone. You know those building you have at your base, evaporated. You know that power core you tried so hard to defend, melted. I'm not saying nerf it to all hell, but tweak it, please.
I feel like I have more, but I forget.
LeemanRuss
http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/groups/1/3/2055/thumb_620x2000/2cc5ca337b7dedd5b536ebfd32863951.gif
MaxwellsDaemon
@frumpylumps
Ah yeah I had forgotten about the shields. I'll turn them on next time.
Yeah you're right -so what I'll do is fire my shuriken catapults and then head off to let my shields recharge once my guns overheat.....I'm sure the orks won't do anything dastardly while I'm gone like blow up my webway gate or savage my resource generators.
Thank you sensei.....teach me more.
...Ahem, sorry, obviously sarcasm. Have you played as Eldar in the match up Frumpylumps?
Shoota boyz have more health and a higher sustained damage out put- which in the end means they are currently trading better in most cases. Plus with Sluggas already running around as cheap fodder you are forced to run around a fair bit seeing as Orks can overall pump more units out...plus Waagh. Then suddenly this difference is huge.
Which part do you disagree with?
LeemanRuss
necrons march
MaxwellsDaemon
@frumpylumps
What rank are you? (since you are calling out @Katitof and @jonoliveira12)
I am about 110-160 depending on recent game history...so not incredible but good enough to know the lay of the land.
Currently I win most mirrors against Eldar but have a significantly lower win rate against Orks and SM.
Murador
I played Maxwell. He outmicrod me in these engagements but my waaghed up fire power and eldar t1 weakness won me the game(Orc vs eldar is same as SM vs eldar). The other few eldars I faced died pretty fast in T1. I was rank 200 when the patch came out on eldar(only played 8 games, won 7)- when i came back from vacation, I was top 100. Than i played a few games and was rank 300
.
I rly like the proposed patch notes:
I'd like to see one thing so: a buff to rangers: the SM equivalent is better, costs less power and has no unlock. Removing the unlock would make 1-2 rangers in ur army and for scouting a viable adition. Make the ranger a more viable addition.
Another thing I'd loved to see is a maybe slight banshee buff- so banshees are seen in games, rangers on the other hand are not existant...
@frumpylumps I play eldar and Orcs, I cant win games on eldar after the and I'm patch doing fine on orc(got some problems with SM, so eldar was quite easy...)
MaxwellsDaemon
@Murador
Thanks
nice of you to say. Though you probably do yourself a disservice!
JDizzleton
Cool changes overall! Thanks for continuing to iterate on balance and listening to player feedback
Excited about the reduced power cost on shadow specters, hopefully it doesn't put them too far in the other direction. They've always been too squishy for their cost so this definitely will help.
Also I'm not sure if the speed nerf to Kyer's wind ability was warranted. Please let's give him a melee charge to make up for it
The mobility change to elder is interesting. I like the reliance on webway gates and the way it preserves the flavor of Eldar. Hopefully, the speed buff doesn't switch webway gates from being "necessary" to "optional".
Love the changes to wraith blades!
frumpylumps
Disagree that higher sustained damage means they are trading better. The shields eldar have actually regenerate while they are firing. The only time DA would ever lose to shootahs is if they couldn't run away to abuse their shield advantage. I'm don't know if it is true that Orks can pump out more units.
Ork can't even leave their base without Waaah in the early game, so Eldar can be inflcting damage that entire time. The only argument I can see that I could see have validity is that the harass damage isn't effective enough to deter orKs advancement into nobz but I haven't played a lot of Eldar players who know how to put the pressure on early and keep it on. I can see how if you sat back and did nothing to the ork player, that Waah +shootah would be hard to stop if you were only playing defensively.
I feel Eldar is somewhat like the terrans of Starcraft, you need to harass your opponent and keep the pressure on to keep their numbers down and delay their tech, and so many people don't seem to know how or don't seem to want to do that. I suppose why we are having turrets implemented.
I got to rank 70 something with Ork and played mostly before Eldar nerfs but haven't played much after that since SM was so overbuffed and because of game breaking bugs.
How many eldar players even get shield regeneration upgrade when they go DA? Remember when people were complaining about Trukk spam? Eldar players are complaining without even utilizing the tools available to them. I've yet to see a single Eldar player use the DR teleport doctrine that would most certainly help in surviving a Waaah.
Its just always so much easier to blame the game than blame yourself and look what you can do to improve. This kind of reaction from an more micro intensive faction should be expected, and ignored.
I don't see any players at the top of the Eldar ladder complaining except a couple who got there by abusing OP mechanics. If babyubyu comes on here, an active Eldar player with 92% win rate, #2 on Eldar ladder, and says Eldar UP then I can view that as someone who is credible.
S4ngetsu
"Banshees need a dps increase..."
I'd actually like them to have more health or a higher shield value. The dps is fine.
Eldar have not a single low cost Elite tank unit unlike SM. You often have to get vision before you actually can use the range of reapers - that and to protect them is why you build banshees in the first place. But if banshees are dying in no time while walking up to the enemies, a dps increase is just stupid. They need more defenses guys.
Overall it would be a nice patch and thanks Relic for balancing
TheSi1entKing
Like you said you play ork, have you really played eldar since the patch? Eldar players are stuck with not many options place webway and go aspect portal and guess what now they are down a lot of power or place webway & go soul shrine even then that means they need to upgrade health or damage to DAs over shield regeneration because DA have a short range & lower DPS compared to Tacs, Shoota Boyz. Then you forget that or just don't know that the DR teleport doctrine is trash it doesn't work 80 percent of the time, you obviously are oblivious to current circumstances with eldar.
12ozMouse
Whne wiil Relic finally get to improve the game's interface? Why do doctrine icons above units are so badly drawn, that you can see pixels when you close the camera up? Why do you have to gather players back in the lobby once the match is over? Why can't you maike collor distinguish may allies in 3x3 and 4x4 and other gamemodes? Why there's no hotkey like coh2? Why do stun effects are so bad? Why do bushes conceal Paladins and buildings? Why do melee units can attack Phantoms? All these are bugs are of a Steam Greenlight project, not of an AAA project 60 bucks per copy.
Gorb
The last two things aren't bugs, if that helps at all. Opinion post.
Murador
Maybe u enlighten me which top eldar thinks balance is fine
. I dont even see anyone streaming eldar(except vindi from time to time). Eldar T1 is by the weakest u should look up the model parameters and do some math on it. Or if u dont like math than find someone testing units in a duel than u'll notice that Eldar units are complete garbage without fleet of foot. Bc of the dire vengar being stronger prepatch and t1 webway gate teleport and bonesing instant capping the map was ridicolous OP nobody even noticed how weak T1 eldar units are.
Webways arent free either and tend to get easily sniped, so there is literally no reason to pretend fleet of foot is better than waaagh ( i dont want any waaagh nerfs ) or SM droppods+standard.
frumpylumps
It doesn't work 80% of the time? Why?
I could be mistaken but I thought Shootah boyz have the same range as DA now, both 30.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18eMDBZ3-INB3bB9u_0nVNYwBDZ1srTDxjYIrbHGlnTw/edit#gid=0
Am i really the oblivious one?
MaxwellsDaemon
@frumpylumps
I'd quite happily defer to better players if they find a way to make something work or disagree if I enjoy success with a strat.
I have played around a fair bit with pretty much every mechanic Eldar currently have to offer and honestly most of them are substandard.
The DR doctrine I want to love - it sounds great but then you go to use it and it takes ages to set up with the set up and de-set up time of reapers then you find out it lasts for (I can't remember exactly how long but a fairly limited time)....then you go to use it and you realise the cast animation takes a while and 9/10 you get stunned out of it. If you aren't getting stunned out if it then your dark reapers weren't getting initiated on and you may as well leave them doing damage.
In order for it to be worth anything it needs to cast quicker and last much longer.
I think I'd just refrain from commenting too much or forming opinions on something I hadn't much experience with...obviously you have skill but you need to play the patch in it's current state to be able to form valid opinions of it!
No offense intended of course!
S4ngetsu
It doesn't work 80% of the time because the timer is about 30sec only. This means the reapers have to setup their teleport doctrine which allready takes time and disables them while doing that and then they have 30 sec to use this teleporting device which is a complete joke because you never are able to setup a fight, trade well and then use the teleport within 30 sec.
After those 30sec the tp device ability goes on cooldown for a long duration (i don't remember how long exactly but it was way to long so i realised its a trash doctrine).
Scrangos
TIL ive been sitting on 40+ pop of gretchin lategame. no wonder i cap out so quick when i get the morkanaught. my poor upkeep.
@frumpylumps
Shield regen slowly ramps up after they havnt been hit for a while. If they are regening in combat its cause you've been ignoring them for a long ++heresy redacted++ time and somehow havnt gotten hit by a stray pistol shot.
frumpylumps
Its more useful against Waah than anything. You see the Wah and you know its coming so you can lay your traps, but this much micro is apparently too much for "Eldar players". This is a doctrine which has a specific function to deal with that, and isn't overly good, though I could see a few more second added to its duration.
Baiting into attacking the low ground and then teleporting onto the high ground will buy vital seconds to outlast an orK waah, and Orks are nothing without it.