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Ork Boyz stunning walkers?
3 years ago
Azoran
Has anyone else noticed this? I find it a little ridiculous that Ork Boyz can stun something that is literally 10 times there own size. I am not sure what the ability is because I use either my Black Templars or my own craftworld for the Eldar I call "The Undying." Does anyone else think this needs to be patched?
4
Comments
Katitof
All abilities work against all units.
There are no exceptions, unless ability is specifically anti vehicle or anti infantry and its mentioned in ability description.
CANNED_F3TUS
Solaria gets a booboo and auto stunned when axe barely notches the armored legs.
Scrangos
They do it with a cooldown on charge, like banshees. And not really, they already evaporate in the lategame and cant hurt anything of consequence. Itd be like nerfing banshees, or scout grenades.
DaDokisinX
Yeah it's a bit counter intuitive / annoying. I would like to see this changed down the line (scout nades and boyz should not be cc'ing my knight), but it's far from the most pressing issue atm.
VanceMFStubbs
I understand that Relic did that to make low tier units scale up to late game, but boyz and scouts chain stunning 9 point elites is just stupid. I woundn't mind if they removed some infantry abilities vs vehicles\high point elites.
Gorb
I'm very surprised to see people suggesting actual, significant balance changes based solely on a lore argument? Opinion post.
vindicarex
Well, even for balance, I think it would be a good thing.
Imagine in DoW2 - A Great Unclean One being effected by something like Banshee Shout or Knob stub grenade - it definitively lessens not only the "feel" of using a towering behemoth of a unit meant to cause fear in the enemy, but makes their presence all the less impactful as a late-game, ultimate tier unit. By all design standards, it should severely outclass basic Tier 0 unit imo.
Katitof
That's because people see unit models exclusively and based on how models LOOK they make suggestions on how they should interact with others.
They ignore completely game mechanics, because unit is bigger or smaller then others, like it had any meaning.
Now, stuff like scout nades affecting vehicles -at all-, regardless if they are elite or not, is silly to say the least.
That being said, I put my bet on this working like that, because relic intends ability counterplay and that's why all abilities have a windup or channeling effect-so they can be interrupted.
Gorb
But the game interactions are balanced around these abilities providing the intended counterplay. If you remove it, you create a knock-on effect of consequential changes that will be required to maintain each faction's parity with regards to CC abilities (and more besides).
Elite Units do, in general, outclass Line Units in all regards. There are some Tier-related exceptions; I'd imagine 2-pointers and even 3-pointers wouldn't stack up well against (research upgraded) units like Wraithguard or Wraithblade, but there isn't some design imperative. There's just this apparent desire to make Elite Units immune to for reasons that are pretty much arbitrary.
Why do I say arbitrary?
Because for each person's arguments about immersion, you're always going to get a different baseline of what is acceptable. I consider the mechanics to be important enough that this isn't something that we need to bend them for. The lore argument isn't strong enough, to me. To other people, this is obviously different. So yeah, applied across an entire playerbase? Arbitrary and divisive. It's best to go with the obvious fact that at this point in time it is intended design.
Stoner
I'm torn on this issue, from logical point of view it looks pretty weird to stun giant walker with axe or grenade, but in 1v1 if any top walker would be allowed to fire off his or her abilities, your entire army will either die or suffer serious losses. Those abilities let player who chose not to go for top Elites somehow counter and survive super unit onslaught. Just recently had a match where few of my stun nades saved my army from certain annihilation and won me a game. Players should not be encouraged to deploy super unit and just A-move it at your army while it kills everything on it's own, as well as you shouldn't just discard units like Scouts or Boyz on T3 because you have better ones. I'd welcome diminishing returns on CC but making some units immune I would not.
MaxwellsDaemon
I'm good with their being counters to elite abilities and being able crowd control them but not on cheap spammable units.
A dreadnaught smacking the ground with an epic fist slam....ok with that stunning a wraith knight paladin or orkanaut.
It also costs 300 power so fair shout.
A on Ork boy headbutting its foot....it's not only dumb to watch but really annoying.
Technique
boys melt though... and that scrap would be much better used on other things at that point
Is this seriously an issue? Of all Ork units... boys? Really....
Katitof
I wouldn't be so sure.
Health and scrap upgraded boys have more then 3000 hp.
Technique
Wow over 3k hp?
Maybe I never played vs upgraded boys then. O_o
GuruSkippy
All infantry, when fully upgraded HP, have +90% HP. orks and SMs are the same
And Eldars upgrade concerns shield only, but if you do the math, adding basic HP + upgraded shield, it basically is the same in the end : +90%
Vanilla sluggas have 1200hp -> 2280HP fully upgraded
Scrapped sluggas have 1600hp -> 3040HP fully upgraded.
MaxwellsDaemon
Aye - it's not a major concern but it feels more irksome than a rewarding unit exchange.
This especially the case when you are committing to channelling an ability because there is no visible crowd control around and then the remnants of some beat up boy squad imperceptibly runs in amongst the medly of things going on and, as I said, headbutts the things toe....sometimes without the Ork player even knowing they are doing it.
A dreadnaught smacking it in the shins though...easy to spot seems like a fair possible exchange of play and counter play.
@Technique - as you questioned though- not a major concern just something I find irksome....as apparently some others do as well.
Stoner
Maybe, but you do realize if you, say, spam Sluggas or Scouts, their only utility is stun and units really melt, while you waste precious req on unit in late esc which will be nuked by any aoe and you won't get hefty refund to compensate, right? Those 200 req can mean life and death in later game.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Stoner
Yeah I agree with you. Like I said it doesn't bother me much and I don't think it's especially imbalanced..... Truthfully you can just kite backwards and pick a better moment for it. However, I still think it's annoying, doesn't really stick to the lore and is still a utility available to the most spammable units outside of workers in the game....I want T1 to have late game relevance - but as I've said elsewhere I'd rather it come from some upgrade system that can shift their utility in another direction.
Legitimately not a big concern for me either way
Stoner
I share your sentiment here, but if I had to put too much emphasis on it, it'd probably uninstall this game looong time ago, so I have to just overlook completely ridiculous scenarios unfolding in this game and at least enjoy looking at neat W40k models...
Arbit
It's weird to see boyz stun Solaria, but I applaud Relic's consistency. If you made an exception for Solaria, well then how about dreads? Tanks? Terminators? Skimmers? Nobs? Etc. It leads down a rabbit hole where you have to make a fairly arbitrary cutoff, and the player has to memorize what works on what. With the current system, you know exactly what you can stun with boyz - everything. No exceptions.
(although tbh I could see all stuns not working on heavy armor units, which would be consistent and clear enough.... but then no kommando stun trap on termies or nobz? Surely you could stun the exposed pilot of a landspeeder? There's no optimal decision, IMO)
Also, if we're talking about max upgraded 3k hp boyz, then it would be fair to assume the things they are fighting are going to have max damage upgrades which is going to cut into that HP pretty quick, considering T2/T3 units have higher base DPS. Boyz still get melted, especially by AoE attacks.
CANNED_F3TUS
Not so much the issue of the ability its just jarring and unrealistic looking.
But as mentioned the ork boy stunning terminators and kneecapping imperial knights 50 times their size and millionth of their weight is done so that they still have a function late game.
I just convinced myself that knight leg armor is fragile like glass and sends pain to the princeps everytime a nob notches the kneepads.
DmonBlu
Hmm perhaps all "large units" should have CC reduction passive?
Nahh if they do that ppl will scream MOBAs even louder and bash the game harder IMO. Besides that requires lots of work and is a balancing nightmare especially for a budget company llike Relic