@PaperBaG said:
I don't ignore it, you're not wrong, my point is this doesn't make for a good RTS if that's what you gotta do to win.
Wtf? Building Eco is an important part of RTS games.
Its good if you have 4 points to his 2 but bc of base eco and silly "upgrades" ? So why even bother to fight in the early game just turtle
Why should i turtly, denying every advanatage the enemy could have is important. Also building gens secure you a) the point (cause enemy needs longer to cap them, give you more time for reinforcements) abd b) give you more energy and rec to build more units. Building power gens and upgrade the points is very important to get the expensive tier 3 lategameunits.
Mass scouts ain't even good.
Low damage output and easily killed.
It's just to stall for the power units.
And that you get cash back for units lost also heavily works in favor of these low hp units that are just there to buy time.
I have been between top 5 and 10 in SM ladder for a long time now and I only use scouts and snipers, but mostly scouts.
Just look at how I manage to kill a his two DA squads early game with 4 and 5 scouts since he didn't had a bonesinger in position in this game. And the eldar player is Blasta, a very strong Eldar player that is constantly using his bonesingers to try to deny my scouts play.
It does require some micro management to pull of, and they can also die fast if you are out of position. But overall mass scouts works wonders.
You mostly get matched vs randoms... so the randoms beating the arranged teams is where the skill is at.
Obviously if you got good team work scouts are very valuable.
But I also seen you play 1v1 in ESL against an ork win 1 game and then he figured your trick out and beat you in the second and third game.
It's just another viable strat, but imo not the strongest strat for sm and definitely nothing that needs to be nerfed.
If anything the cash back for units lost needs to be looked at - in those 1v1s the orks completely cleaned up your scouts several times and you simply had the cash to quickly remake em... cash back + upkeep together make for bad/noobish game design - not the fault of the unit itself.
@Adeptus_Noobus said:
So the lesson to be learned in this thread is: stun-locking is a fine mechanic? Just asking out of curiosity.
It's not, but at the same time it's not SM exclusive either. CC chains are currently performed by various combos on different races, some of them are even complemented by heavy nukes, which SM isn't very good at.
I see that one day ago you said that mass scouts are horrible and now in other threads you started to cry about these builds.
Do you change your mind that often ?
By the way i`m up for some games vs you, with scouts and with TSM/ASMs. Lets see how you deal with them since you really wanna fight mass scouts players and you can't find them.
I don't think scouts are broken, I think the degree of spam you can pull is broken.
I fought a scout spammer today and while definitely irritating I ended up beating him using scorpion Hunt power + judicious use of DA nades. He made one bad over commit to attacking a point I held and I wiped his whole army and then killed his barracks. GG.
I have been between top 5 and 10 in SM ladder for a long time now and I only use scouts and snipers, but mostly scouts.
Just look at how I manage to kill a his two DA squads early game with 4 and 5 scouts since he didn't had a bonesinger in position in this game. And the eldar player is Blasta, a very strong Eldar player that is constantly using his bonesingers to try to deny my scouts play.
It does require some micro management to pull of, and they can also die fast if you are out of position. But overall mass scouts works wonders.
You should change the video picture. Remove gabe and macha, Add a scout throwing a blind grenade and then a helpless dire avenger.
I have been between top 5 and 10 in SM ladder for a long time now and I only use scouts and snipers, but mostly scouts.
Just look at how I manage to kill a his two DA squads early game with 4 and 5 scouts since he didn't had a bonesinger in position in this game. And the eldar player is Blasta, a very strong Eldar player that is constantly using his bonesingers to try to deny my scouts play.
It does require some micro management to pull of, and they can also die fast if you are out of position. But overall mass scouts works wonders.
You should change the video picture. Remove gabe and macha, Add a scout throwing a blind grenade and then a helpless dire avenger.
I pretty much copied Noave's strat with a couple tweaks and yeah, mass scouts have the ability to take things they really shouldn't. Just yesterday I killed a Knight Paladin with just ATerms and Scouts hitting/stunning it to death. I do think it needs a little tweaking.
The problem is not really in just a few scouts, but rather when you build like 5+. That's why I proposed just adding some build time and cooldown time to the nade to help cut that a bit.
Just add a stacking penalty to toggles per dead squad member. Force the player to either reinforce or whelp because waiting 5 minutes to throw a grenade is too punishing. Same goes for all squad toggles on all units including elites. Death watch risking 20 minute cooldowns on their slow nade because they have only one member and they cannot warp out because not enough members. Stormboyz can't suicide because not enough members. Scorpions waiting 5 minutes to Hunt etc etc.
Chain stun mechianic is broken. Scouts are just the cheapest units with stun ability at this moment. We don't need scout nerf, we need global chain-stun nerf. Diminishing returns will be good decision.
@YbuBaKa said:
Chain stun mechianic is broken. Scouts are just the cheapest units with stun ability at this moment. We don't need scout nerf, we need global chain-stun nerf. Diminishing returns will be good decision.
Not only stun, diminishing returns must affect every singe CC.
Cept the stun is all they got... If u nerf the stun then Scouts would become Fire Prism 2.0, a unit that is worthless due to high price, dealing no damage AT ALL and have a skillshot that can be easily dodged (dont even argue with me bout this) and countered completely by workers... So nerfing the stun would decimate SM faction even further (mind you they just got tons of nerfs in the recent patch). Diminishing effect is a good idea however but RTS Cult's playstyle would be changed completely and that means all the copycats will have to find a new build which leads to EVEN MORE whine threads (DOW community loves complaining) and since 50% of the player base play SM, another SM nerf would devastate the game
@DmonBlu said:
Cept the stun is all they got... If u nerf the stun then Scouts would become Fire Prism 2.0, a unit that is worthless due to high price, dealing no damage AT ALL and have a skillshot that can be easily dodged (dont even argue with me bout this) and countered completely by workers... So nerfing the stun would decimate SM faction even further (mind you they just got tons of nerfs in the recent patch). Diminishing effect is a good idea however but RTS Cult's playstyle would be changed completely and that means all the copycats will have to find a new build which leads to EVEN MORE whine threads (DOW community loves complaining) and since 50% of the player base play SM, another SM nerf would devastate the game
Actually, what they got is stealth, huge sight range and barely cost anything.
If they were holding rainbow flags only and singing songs, I'd still be getting a pair around the map for the recon, because you know, they are scouts.
Actually, what they got is stealth, huge sight range and barely cost anything.
If they were holding rainbow flags only and singing songs, I'd still be getting a pair around the map for the recon, because you know, they are scouts.
Ughh that not how they r supposed to work dude. They r supposed to be a press-for-free-win button that r super cheap and require little micro to win. U just spam a bunch of them and faceroll everyone cuz SM is the most OP faction and by picking them u r gettin free wins
I'm aware that I am likely the minority but I've always felt Space Marines as a faction would really be about picking your fights, timing attacks and generally being able to hit a specific spot on the map EXTREMELY hard and EXTREMELY fast but losing the prolonged, dragged out engagement. I think scouts are pretty much this to the letter.
I feel like they are fine as they are (they are cheap, have alot of utility with stealth/line of sight) but the blind grenade is what throws them over the top. All it would take is to add an exponential diminishing return on their stun and you'd have them right. It creates the question/problem of "Do I stun to open or stun to close"
Da spam worked for me a few times i encountered scout spam, though not sure if sm player wasn't just bad. Cause mass scouts lose to mass da in straight up fight, so if you spread the dire avengers so that scouts they cant stun more than one squad with one nade, the scouts don't have time to shoot, they have to retreat almost at once or risk losing a whole lot of req. Also Macha oneshots scouts on full health, just gotta avoid fighting against deathwatch+scouts until she comes out.
Ofc if the eldar player doesn't expect scout spam and goes for something like da+fast banshees then he is in for a lot of trouble in early game.
Agreed on the diminishing returns thing, cause chain stunning is kinda too strong sometimes. Although i'm not sure if its needed for other similar ablities. Slugga stun and banshee blind&silence isn't nearly as strong as scout nades.
Scouts deal the lowest sfter gretchin dmg. Seems like you forgot about that. Slaggas deal good dmg. But not aoee stun yes. Each faction have strong and weak units. Deal with it(c)katitof
This is special unit for stun with almost no dmg. Maybe orc boyz stun should be also removed? Zappnoggins fist? Kommando bomb, whi h stun+nuke? Macha's stasis? Taldeer ability? E t c. When smone build 6 scouts, the opponent build 4 devastators and spread them. Try to find solution. ++heresy redacted++, i predicted that after asm nerf eldars will ask more nerfs to opponents) scouts, lasdevs, tacs, speeders, tanks, dreds, droppods e t c.
And STOP RUN BLOBS! That is the reason you feel scouts are op.
You guys need to read the initial post poroperly.. The problem does stem from scouts. simply because of stun grenade. Scouts as a unit are ok...just ok. Its what they do to supplement the kill team / jonah thats OP. stunlock unit ( any unit, be it be a vehicle, 9 pointer elite, whatever), or units and nuke them with elites. Diminishing returns would be nice yes, but even one stun can be enough to decimate a slightly out of position unit.
Just a small power cost to scouts to drain scout spammers resources would be perfect. Or a package that gives them the ability to stun, costing power.
@BlastaT2 said:
You guys need to read the initial post poroperly.. The problem does stem from scouts. simply because of stun grenade. Scouts as a unit are ok...just ok. Its what they do to supplement the kill team / jonah thats OP. stunlock unit ( any unit, be it be a vehicle, 9 pointer elite, whatever), or units and nuke them with elites. Diminishing returns would be nice yes, but even one stun can be enough to decimate a slightly out of position unit.
Just a small power cost to scouts to drain scout spammers resources would be perfect. Or a package that gives them the ability to stun, costing power.
Most Elite nukes work in such ways, that they destroy armies in one shot cc locked or not. Boyz can effectively chain-stun targets as well as scouts. Banshees can disable units for prolonged periods and get free kills without fighting back. I wouldn't even mention Nob chain-taunt, which kills on its own, but usually complemented with unavoidable nukes to wipe things faster.
Every highskill replay or vid I watch, I see some insane numbers of lost units which players simply can't prevent, that's how this game works like it or not...
@stoner Yes true. However banshees and sluggas must commit to melee to do this. taking damage in return. And are far less spammable that scouts. Nobz are a higher tier unit costing 200/200 justifying their ability to taunt and line up a combo. Scouts are none of these.
I never see more than 2 banshees at one time in a game. And Sluggas at most are at 4.
It's really the first strike doctrine + chain stun CC that makes mass scouts a real pain. Eldar and Orkz have the option to counter with weirdboyz/Macha nukes, which can be quite game winning, but SM don't have such options early game.
While it's not broken... it does seem a bit OP that these very cheap units can basically counter everything and anything throughout the game.
Honestly, even if you don't spam them - having a 200 req unit that is invis and reveals area is already super good - nevermind the blind grenade and doctrine.
There needs to be some change to address the spamming of grenades - it's just too powerful not only vs T1 infantry, but also locks down the appropiate counter to this play: heavy infantry and vehicles. Blind greandes need a change at the very least.
Beyond just minimizing chain-stuns - I would also put the blind grenades on the scout snipers. The fact that you can spam a huge number of scouts so easily + the blind grenades - then scouts can even upgrade for mines for even more spam. Having 10+ blind grenades is basically chain-stunning armies or elites and not only encourages gimmicky gameplay, but feels horrible on the receiving end as there's very little you can do if you make a wrong move.
So it's not the base scout, just the fact that you can spam them so fast and cheap and effectively that sends them OTT. Without access to blind grenades on such a mobile and cheap unit, I think the ability to spam them would still be there but be much less effective.
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Comments
Larkis
Why should i turtly, denying every advanatage the enemy could have is important. Also building gens secure you a) the point (cause enemy needs longer to cap them, give you more time for reinforcements) abd b) give you more energy and rec to build more units. Building power gens and upgrade the points is very important to get the expensive tier 3 lategameunits.
Technique
Mass scouts ain't even good.
Low damage output and easily killed.
It's just to stall for the power units.
And that you get cash back for units lost also heavily works in favor of these low hp units that are just there to buy time.
n0ave_
Mass scouts is very good,
I have been between top 5 and 10 in SM ladder for a long time now and I only use scouts and snipers, but mostly scouts.
Just look at how I manage to kill a his two DA squads early game with 4 and 5 scouts since he didn't had a bonesinger in position in this game. And the eldar player is Blasta, a very strong Eldar player that is constantly using his bonesingers to try to deny my scouts play.
It does require some micro management to pull of, and they can also die fast if you are out of position. But overall mass scouts works wonders.
Technique
Arranged teams take no skill really.
You mostly get matched vs randoms... so the randoms beating the arranged teams is where the skill is at.
Obviously if you got good team work scouts are very valuable.
But I also seen you play 1v1 in ESL against an ork win 1 game and then he figured your trick out and beat you in the second and third game.
It's just another viable strat, but imo not the strongest strat for sm and definitely nothing that needs to be nerfed.
If anything the cash back for units lost needs to be looked at - in those 1v1s the orks completely cleaned up your scouts several times and you simply had the cash to quickly remake em... cash back + upkeep together make for bad/noobish game design - not the fault of the unit itself.
Adeptus_Noobus
So the lesson to be learned in this thread is: stun-locking is a fine mechanic? Just asking out of curiosity.
BlastaT2
No its not fine.
Stoner
It's not, but at the same time it's not SM exclusive either. CC chains are currently performed by various combos on different races, some of them are even complemented by heavy nukes, which SM isn't very good at.
n0ave_
Yo @MrBenis,
I see that one day ago you said that mass scouts are horrible and now in other threads you started to cry about these builds.
Do you change your mind that often ?
By the way i`m up for some games vs you, with scouts and with TSM/ASMs. Lets see how you deal with them since you really wanna fight mass scouts players and you can't find them.
MrBenis
I don't think scouts are broken, I think the degree of spam you can pull is broken.
I fought a scout spammer today and while definitely irritating I ended up beating him using scorpion Hunt power + judicious use of DA nades. He made one bad over commit to attacking a point I held and I wiped his whole army and then killed his barracks. GG.
When I have time I'll find you in game.
Adeptus_Noobus
Hit me up, so I can stream the grudge match....oh wait, there is still no observer slot....
BlastaT2
You should change the video picture. Remove gabe and macha, Add a scout throwing a blind grenade and then a helpless dire avenger.
DmonBlu
Just use steam stream feature lul. There aint that many ppl playing...
Evono
How about adding the Eldar scout bug to SM scouts ? Aka that if you blob them in 1 group they throw all grenades at once ? lol
n0ave_
Hehe, totally agree Blasta.
Atlas
I pretty much copied Noave's strat with a couple tweaks and yeah, mass scouts have the ability to take things they really shouldn't. Just yesterday I killed a Knight Paladin with just ATerms and Scouts hitting/stunning it to death. I do think it needs a little tweaking.
The problem is not really in just a few scouts, but rather when you build like 5+. That's why I proposed just adding some build time and cooldown time to the nade to help cut that a bit.
MrBenis
Just add a stacking penalty to toggles per dead squad member. Force the player to either reinforce or whelp because waiting 5 minutes to throw a grenade is too punishing. Same goes for all squad toggles on all units including elites. Death watch risking 20 minute cooldowns on their slow nade because they have only one member and they cannot warp out because not enough members. Stormboyz can't suicide because not enough members. Scorpions waiting 5 minutes to Hunt etc etc.
YbuBaKa
Chain stun mechianic is broken. Scouts are just the cheapest units with stun ability at this moment. We don't need scout nerf, we need global chain-stun nerf. Diminishing returns will be good decision.
Stoner
Not only stun, diminishing returns must affect every singe CC.
DmonBlu
Cept the stun is all they got... If u nerf the stun then Scouts would become Fire Prism 2.0, a unit that is worthless due to high price, dealing no damage AT ALL and have a skillshot that can be easily dodged (dont even argue with me bout this) and countered completely by workers... So nerfing the stun would decimate SM faction even further (mind you they just got tons of nerfs in the recent patch). Diminishing effect is a good idea however but RTS Cult's playstyle would be changed completely and that means all the copycats will have to find a new build which leads to EVEN MORE whine threads (DOW community loves complaining) and since 50% of the player base play SM, another SM nerf would devastate the game
Katitof
Actually, what they got is stealth, huge sight range and barely cost anything.
If they were holding rainbow flags only and singing songs, I'd still be getting a pair around the map for the recon, because you know, they are scouts.
DmonBlu
Ughh that not how they r supposed to work dude. They r supposed to be a press-for-free-win button that r super cheap and require little micro to win. U just spam a bunch of them and faceroll everyone cuz SM is the most OP faction and by picking them u r gettin free wins
This is a troll post
Andtaxes
I'm aware that I am likely the minority but I've always felt Space Marines as a faction would really be about picking your fights, timing attacks and generally being able to hit a specific spot on the map EXTREMELY hard and EXTREMELY fast but losing the prolonged, dragged out engagement. I think scouts are pretty much this to the letter.
I feel like they are fine as they are (they are cheap, have alot of utility with stealth/line of sight) but the blind grenade is what throws them over the top. All it would take is to add an exponential diminishing return on their stun and you'd have them right. It creates the question/problem of "Do I stun to open or stun to close"
Bersercker
Da spam worked for me a few times i encountered scout spam, though not sure if sm player wasn't just bad. Cause mass scouts lose to mass da in straight up fight, so if you spread the dire avengers so that scouts they cant stun more than one squad with one nade, the scouts don't have time to shoot, they have to retreat almost at once or risk losing a whole lot of req. Also Macha oneshots scouts on full health, just gotta avoid fighting against deathwatch+scouts until she comes out.
Ofc if the eldar player doesn't expect scout spam and goes for something like da+fast banshees then he is in for a lot of trouble in early game.
Agreed on the diminishing returns thing, cause chain stunning is kinda too strong sometimes. Although i'm not sure if its needed for other similar ablities. Slugga stun and banshee blind&silence isn't nearly as strong as scout nades.
Diogen84
Scouts deal the lowest sfter gretchin dmg. Seems like you forgot about that. Slaggas deal good dmg. But not aoee stun yes. Each faction have strong and weak units. Deal with it(c)katitof
aghabozorg
i think the grenade should only blind targets.they have to remove the stun
Diogen84
This is special unit for stun with almost no dmg. Maybe orc boyz stun should be also removed? Zappnoggins fist? Kommando bomb, whi h stun+nuke? Macha's stasis? Taldeer ability? E t c. When smone build 6 scouts, the opponent build 4 devastators and spread them. Try to find solution.
++heresy redacted++, i predicted that after asm nerf eldars will ask more nerfs to opponents) scouts, lasdevs, tacs, speeders, tanks, dreds, droppods e t c.
And STOP RUN BLOBS! That is the reason you feel scouts are op.
BlastaT2
You guys need to read the initial post poroperly.. The problem does stem from scouts. simply because of stun grenade. Scouts as a unit are ok...just ok. Its what they do to supplement the kill team / jonah thats OP. stunlock unit ( any unit, be it be a vehicle, 9 pointer elite, whatever), or units and nuke them with elites. Diminishing returns would be nice yes, but even one stun can be enough to decimate a slightly out of position unit.
Just a small power cost to scouts to drain scout spammers resources would be perfect. Or a package that gives them the ability to stun, costing power.
Stoner
Most Elite nukes work in such ways, that they destroy armies in one shot cc locked or not. Boyz can effectively chain-stun targets as well as scouts. Banshees can disable units for prolonged periods and get free kills without fighting back. I wouldn't even mention Nob chain-taunt, which kills on its own, but usually complemented with unavoidable nukes to wipe things faster.
Every highskill replay or vid I watch, I see some insane numbers of lost units which players simply can't prevent, that's how this game works like it or not...
BlastaT2
@stoner Yes true. However banshees and sluggas must commit to melee to do this. taking damage in return. And are far less spammable that scouts. Nobz are a higher tier unit costing 200/200 justifying their ability to taunt and line up a combo. Scouts are none of these.
I never see more than 2 banshees at one time in a game. And Sluggas at most are at 4.
vindicarex
It's really the first strike doctrine + chain stun CC that makes mass scouts a real pain. Eldar and Orkz have the option to counter with weirdboyz/Macha nukes, which can be quite game winning, but SM don't have such options early game.
While it's not broken... it does seem a bit OP that these very cheap units can basically counter everything and anything throughout the game.
Honestly, even if you don't spam them - having a 200 req unit that is invis and reveals area is already super good - nevermind the blind grenade and doctrine.
There needs to be some change to address the spamming of grenades - it's just too powerful not only vs T1 infantry, but also locks down the appropiate counter to this play: heavy infantry and vehicles. Blind greandes need a change at the very least.
Beyond just minimizing chain-stuns - I would also put the blind grenades on the scout snipers. The fact that you can spam a huge number of scouts so easily + the blind grenades - then scouts can even upgrade for mines for even more spam. Having 10+ blind grenades is basically chain-stunning armies or elites and not only encourages gimmicky gameplay, but feels horrible on the receiving end as there's very little you can do if you make a wrong move.
So it's not the base scout, just the fact that you can spam them so fast and cheap and effectively that sends them OTT. Without access to blind grenades on such a mobile and cheap unit, I think the ability to spam them would still be there but be much less effective.