@Katitof said:
If ability is OP, then its OP.
It doesn't matter if it requires you to click two times or play a sequence on ocarina, if it overperforms in relation to other heroes of same tier it will be nerfed.
Well there is no conversation here. Just declarations and circular logic. This is what I saw in the original feedback thread and what I felt the need to speak against. I would also argue the it "overperformed". Maybe in that one to one instance of getting hit by an ability it overperformed, but I would really like to see a count of units killed per ability. I would bet the Kommando's bomb is more even than you may think considering the context, which you clearly just disregard.
@Katitof said:
If you think its ok and balanced to have an ability that will wipe ALL T1 and T2 infantry and heavy infantry units in game in one go, regardless of how many are in the area, then that is a dictionary example of overpowered ability.
I honestly don't know what kind of hardcore delusion you're under to believe it was ok.
No 3EP elite under any circumstances should be evaporating T2 heavy infantry.
@Shuttdown said:
I have also stated multiple times that he should not be able to wipe an entire army. That is too punishing.
I clearly agree with you on some aspects. I originally thought the nerf wasn't so bad, then backtracked when I started considering numbers and context. I think it would have been better served as a simple change. Perhaps small radius reduction and damage type switched to normal. I thought it was silly to me that a "booby trap" would hurt structures as much. Maybe even straight damage reduction and cooldown on the scrapping ability for as far as I know Kommando can go from scrap pile to scrap pile without much delay and that did indeed hurt Ork mirror matches. Relic clearly has different ideas for the ability, however.
@Katitof
If ability is OP, then its OP.
If you think its ok and balanced to have an ability that will wipe ALL T1 and T2 infantry and heavy infantry units in game in one go, regardless of how many are in the area,
then that is a dictionary example of overpowered ability.
How many times are you going to make this completely baseless assertion? High potency = OP? Should we remove Roks and Orbital Bombardment to cater to your needs as well?
The truth is he wasn't over-performing at all except maybe in the low skill bracket. He made almost no appearances in ESL tournaments and was usually crushed when he did. Anyone who had their head on straight knew to scout him with workers or at least not move their whole army into the point-blank, massive windup, well-advertised explosion.
The game is bleeding Huge numbers of players whilst sales of the game are good it is clear that there is a serious problem could some one from Relic please address this issue and state your future plans to save the franchise and detail road map of new content as well detailing how you feel about the games current state.
Jelly is right. Commando was not so powerful, as some people might say. But that does not mean I want his nerf to be rollbacked. This hero just needs other features, which could be used even when he is detected and seen by the enemy. For example, his Boomstik damage could be increased (it was nerfed two patches ago), or he may gain proper melee attack. Also, stun length from his smoke grenade could be increased too. The truth is: in his current condition, Commando is useless and will be overlooked by 95% Ork players due to his weakness.
@Katitof
If ability is OP, then its OP.
If you think its ok and balanced to have an ability that will wipe ALL T1 and T2 infantry and heavy infantry units in game in one go, regardless of how many are in the area,
then that is a dictionary example of overpowered ability.
How many times are you going to make this completely baseless assertion? High potency = OP? Should we remove Roks and Orbital Bombardment to cater to your needs as well?
The truth is he wasn't over-performing at all except maybe in the low skill bracket. He made almost no appearances in ESL tournaments and was usually crushed when he did. Anyone who had their head on straight knew to scout him with workers or at least not move their whole army into the point-blank, massive windup, well-advertised explosion.
This is a rather stretched comparison to Tier 3 superabilities, compared against a single ability for a particular early-game Elite. That's an argument to absurdity, I think.
And I believe people on GameReplays have been providing replays to showcase the unit's effectiveness. IIRC you still disagree, but that doesn't mean much, it's just another case of opinion vs. opinion. Certainly, no need to start accusing people of things like "baseless assertions". There are far better ways to ask for qualifying proof than making an similar statement yourself ("The truth is . . .").
@Gorb
It's a perfectly sound comparison, as I've explained. I've written explanations several times now and doubt Katitof actually read any of them.
Watch Dulla's replay, he plays Knob essentially perfect and still gets crushed. I'm not sure why he thought a loss would be good evidence of Knob being viable.
At a guess, because singular Elites don't decide games. The early-game ones, anyhow (outside of patched things like True Damage Scorpions). The point was to showcase the effectiveness of that particular unit.
It seems to me like these kinds of Elites are still being portrayed as DoW II Commander-alikes. No idea how much time you spent with that game, though, just a general perception thing (barring the pushback from people who prefer vDoW and thus don't like DoW II or DoW III Commanders / Elites). An individual Elite doesn't decide your army; that's why you have three choices (and three Doctrines on top of that). Losing an ESL game as Orks despite picking Kommando is no evidence of the Kommando itself insofar as it's evidence of any of the other used Elite choices underperforming.
Don't you guys think it would be better to up his usefulness in other ways then?
Personally I don't play Ork so - but in my experience he was good for cheesy moments and fun for it too. But his general utility was actually quite low and as everyone has said he can be hard countered to the point of almost worthlessness.
I think it would have been wise for relic to include some buff alongside this nerf. Can I encourage you guys as well as other ork players to start brain storming suitable buffs to the hero? I'd be surprised if relic were to reverse the change and it would be fun to see the Kommando Nob more often!
@Gorb
I'm not sure what to say Gorb. He was underpicked pre-patch and now post-nerf he loses even with exceptional play. I've delineated how burdensome the ability was to use, I've illustrated that there were numerous counter-plays available, I've pointed to the high-skill bracket's repeated failure to employ him. None of that was opinion.
What could I possibly muster to satisfy your standards here, a bunch of replays of losses? Would that even prove anything?
The burden of evidence is on the pro-nerf side I don't see them producing anything.
@MaxwellsDaemon
Make his stunbomb give him a short speed buff that's lost if he's revealed, and give the same buff to nearby units when he uses it. Slotting Kommando usually precludes Stormboyz and therefore Trukk play and this could alleviate that lack of initiative somewhat while giving him a reason to not run off alone and cheese constantly.
There are no standards you need to satisfy, I'm just in the debate here with you. That one ability was not all the Elite was capable of, and that one ability received more functional changes than actual balance changes (damage was decreased against a set of units, and increased against others. The resulting utility of this is also completely arguable, but it's a bit more nuanced than it seems to be being painted as).
You're skeptical this will lead to further changes, I am not.
After getting some games in. The Kommando is still fun and can be effective with more support, but just not worth it if I'm not playing just for fun (read: I'll still play him in Annihilation). It's still almost a matter of luck between the opponent walking into or staying within any booby traps. It's like fishing. Side note...I had the realization Whirlwinds are probably a decent comparison in ability to the Kommando's ability. But even more powerful...they have wiped my armies...so when's their nerf coming (jk with a honest bit of salt).
@MaxwellsDaemon
Good points. Interested to see where it goes from here. I do expect Relic to provide at least something as an alternative option. Everyone seems to just close their ears going "lalalalala" when hard counters to him are mentioned. I think a good speed buff or dash ability would be nice. Often when I play him I try to set up traps behind enemy lines. This often leads to him getting displaced and surrounded. I think a dash with minimal damage and some knockback would be well served to increase his longevity with this play style. Also I wish they would have at least made his stun mine larger. Both physically and with the stun effect. I can't count how many times I tried to click on the ++heresy redacted++ stun mine to turn it into a bomb and end up with nothing because I'm frantically trying to click an object that is about the size of a single slugga boy while my army gets left to wonder where their commander has gone. Anyone else get this? Or is it just me fumbling around like an idiot?
@YbuBaKa said:
Yes, booby trap activation in large battles looked like pixelhunting. Enemy troops and heroes near the trap block the activation button.
You know you can use scrap as traps as well, right?
Kommando nob got amazing synergy with Wazmakka, where one drops scraps to blow up and gives protection while the other detonates them.
Looking at a hero in vacuum will always make it less potent then it actually is, because you don't consider all its possibilities.
@YbuBaKa said:
Yes, booby trap activation in large battles looked like pixelhunting. Enemy troops and heroes near the trap block the activation button.
Of course. I am very exerienced Ork player, so I used Commando a lot. His ability to explode every piece of scrap is invaluable in mirrors. It also prevent us, Orks, to build our WAGGH! banners near shield generators for defense. It is very risky, you know, when just one elite git can explode your key structure with the defensive banners, used to protect it.
Wazmakka is total crap, you need to l34rn smth about Orks before posting such suggestions. He has interesting abilites: to catch enemy heroes and cancel their retreat attempts, to prevent different skills from use (Elektrik Wall, Spinnin' Claw, Kyre's takeoff), but he lacks true power. Other 4-pt elites are tanky, or they could wipe entire infantry armies. Gabe is tanky, versatile, he could wipe both infantry and heavy infantry. Gorgutz is even more tanky, but has less dps and crowd-control effectiveness. Even Jane has better chance to survive, than Wazmakka, due to her nice speed and charge ability, which could be used to leave the battle too. And she is excellent infantry killer.
Now look at Big Mek: what he is really capable of? Buff-debuff spell? Good, but it is channeling only one target. He could summon more scrap for Orks' needs? You don't lack scrap at the 9th minute of the game, really. But he is too weak to be the first summoned elite, so, his more realistic time of appearance is 12:00 or even 14:00. Can he improve scrap piles to allow construction of better units? Of course no. But he has an ability to turn scrap into turrets, which could be good, but it's not actually good at all. You ask me why? Because he can be interrupted by any stun grenade, or stun/silence strike and so on.
I tried to use this "impressive combo" of Big Mek and Commando nob. You order the scrap from the orbit, look at the long and amazing animation (and your enemy looks it aswell), and after it drops you can order Commando to explode the scrap. It requires 6 seconds and is completely visible to your enemy: scrap has no stun effect, unlike the booby trap. If your enemy is dumb enough to stay under the falling scrap and even ignores explosion animation, you will celebrate victory upon his twisted corpse. But only in case of combination of all factors, mentioned above.
This is why Wazmakka is a viable choice only for for-fun games. There is no 4-pt hero, which could be killed by Wazmakka 1v1. What is the point in his ability, which cancels retreats, when other 4-pt elites has no need to retreat from him? All other 4-pt guys can just smash his face.
I think of the bomb as like Dark Templar from SC2. It is very punishing if you make a critical error, but it just doesn't work against wary players, and when your opponent picks kommando, you don't have to guess what they are going to do.
I would have rather seen the AoE reduced, anti-vehicle damage increased, but made to damage the squad, and slightly decrease the trigger cast duration so they can't just walk out of it after being snared. Even in the possibly broken state that kommando bomb was in, this kind of thing was what made other seemingly OP 3 point elite things feel justified.
Take Macha for example. On the same note that some people are complaining about Knob after they were punished for not only clumping up their army, but also for failing to use detection when pushing against a player that picked Kommando, they will ignore the fact that Macha can paralyze your entire army for an absurd length of time, 30 seconds, enough to kill all your base structures and multiple objectives, then set up the perfect combo on your units, and you don't have to screw up nearly as bad for her to be able to do it.
@Diogen84 said:
Btw, Jane zar kills Gorguts 1x1) with using abilities of course.
And why wouldn't she? She is assassin/destroyer type, that means she got very high single target damage aka is best applied on heroes while skills are for wiping crowds
Gorguts role is to protect your own troops from fire, disrupt opponent and bind most dangerous squad/ranged hero.
@YbuBaKa said:
This is why Wazmakka is a viable choice only for for-fun games. There is no 4-pt hero, which could be killed by Wazmakka 1v1. What is the point in his ability, which cancels retreats, when other 4-pt elites has no need to retreat from him? All other 4-pt guys can just smash his face.
@YbuBaKa said:
Yes, booby trap activation in large battles looked like pixelhunting. Enemy troops and heroes near the trap block the activation button.
You know you can use scrap as traps as well, right?
Kommando nob got amazing synergy with Wazmakka, where one drops scraps to blow up and gives protection while the other detonates them.
Looking at a hero in vacuum will always make it less potent then it actually is, because you don't consider all its possibilities.
Lol, I'm actively trying to optimize this exact combo. Was literally playing this last night in Annihilation rounds. Have yet to even get one instance of it to go off without opponent just moving when the scrap is originally called down. Only played a few games, then went back to quick-matches with Stormboyz and Gorgutz. Maybe it is my play, the huge telegraph that scrap is coming, or something else. Plus its a huge commitment to one ability in 2 elite slots and 7 pts. I haven't figured out what else to really use Wazzmakka for other than shielding and pulling units from retreat.
Don't claim everyone is looking at hero in vacuum when you really just added Wazzmakka to that same vacuum. I think arguments I've made have been sufficient in showing that I am taking every consideration into account. I think I've even been impartial. I want to be convinced! Saying everyone is looking at hero in vacuum goes both ways. For example I am still waiting for anyone to offer up any example that shows any other elite ability on roster being as thoroughly countered as Kommando's scrap bomb can potentially be. Kommando really seems to be in a category of his own on this front.
Gorguts role is to protect your own troops from fire, disrupt opponent and bind most dangerous squad/ranged hero.
You obviously have no idea how to play Orks. Please, don't distract people with your wrong conclusions.
Gorgutz is the source of free reinforcements. THIS is his main role in Da Orky WAAGH! Other tasks are secondary and tertiary. His ability to defend Orks with Spinnin' Claw is wonderful, but keep in mind, it can be easily interrupted with ASM jump or with grenade. His other ability is nice for capturing retreating enemy troops, but can be interrupted with stun grenade, or Gabriel's Hammerslam.
To be honest Wakmaza is a zoning hereo not a damage dealing one. His scrap sight is invaluable becuz its essentially free vision and vision is one of the most important thing in a RTS (in any game actually). His pull is weak but its decent for catching that annoying runner and kill him off before he can heal and cumback to annoy u. His free scrap is HUGE in the mid/late game since u wont be having 5 Waaagh! tower producing scraps every game and scrap is like larvas for Ork, u cant live with out it. Especially if u r running mech heavy comp like Killa Kans/ Any tanky units combo. Scrap turret isnt as useful as ppl think but its supposed to be a zoning tool, make the enemy NOT engage u and possibly retreat and w8 for the turrets to expire (a few seconds can decide the fate of a man ). As supported by all the points above, Wakmaza certainly has his uses IMO, he isnt useless as ppl made him out to be
Gorguts role is to protect your own troops from fire, disrupt opponent and bind most dangerous squad/ranged hero.
You obviously have no idea how to play Orks. Please, don't distract people with your wrong conclusions.
Gorgutz is the source of free reinforcements. THIS is his main role in Da Orky WAAGH! Other tasks are secondary and tertiary. His ability to defend Orks with Spinnin' Claw is wonderful, but keep in mind, it can be easily interrupted with ASM jump or with grenade. His other ability is nice for capturing retreating enemy troops, but can be interrupted with stun grenade, or Gabriel's Hammerslam.
Grenade can't interrupt gorgutz spinning ability, only if you managed to land it right before gorgutz started to spin which mean, depends on your luck. Gorgutz is fine, I have no problem against him mostly, just a bit annoying.
I meant stun greande, not plasma grenade. Stun grenade cancels his Spinnin' Klaw for sure. As eldar, you could use Scorpions' Jump or banshees with silence strike doctrine to cancel the Spinnin' Klaw.
Btw, any upcoming changes to vyper? They're very interesting to utilize but since they can't even handle 2 shots, it's really a waste for 125 power. I have suggestion, make their Q ability a skillshot instead of the current one because they can't even get close to set up their Q. I would love to see more of deffkoppta and big trak, maybe a slight buff to them would be good?
@YbuBaKa said:
I meant stun greande, not plasma grenade. Stun grenade cancels his Spinnin' Klaw for sure. As eldar, you could use Scorpions' Jump or banshees with silence strike doctrine to cancel the Spinnin' Klaw.
I see, interesting. Stun grenade like tacts' or scouts'? I've seen scout's grenade couldn't stun gorgutz when he is spinning, unless before he had a chance to do it.
@AngelofDeth said:
Btw, any upcoming changes to vyper? They're very interesting to utilize but since they can't even handle 2 shots, it's really a waste for 125 power. I have suggestion, make their Q ability a skillshot instead of the current one because they can't even get close to set up their Q. I would love to see more of deffkoppta and big trak, maybe a slight buff to them would be good?
I agree about vyper and deffkopta, they are a waste of resources. But I have to disagree about big traks: they are fine. I think, they even deserve a small nerf. It is too easy to snipe objectives with them with "F" button. You don't even need the sight. Big trak deals AP damage, so it's very effective for destroying turrets and Power Core. Let's change damage of "Kill 'em from the Far" to Normal. This will pervent cheesy Power-Core-snipe tactics and increase their usability against infantry blobs.
@AngelofDeth said:
Btw, any upcoming changes to vyper? They're very interesting to utilize but since they can't even handle 2 shots, it's really a waste for 125 power. I have suggestion, make their Q ability a skillshot instead of the current one because they can't even get close to set up their Q. I would love to see more of deffkoppta and big trak, maybe a slight buff to them would be good?
I agree about vyper and deffkopta, they are a waste of resources. But I have to disagree about big traks: they are fine. I think, they even deserve a small nerf. It is too easy to snipe objectives with them with "F" button. You don't even need the sight. Big trak deals AP damage, so it's very effective for destroying turrets and Power Core. Let's change damage of "Kill 'em from the Far" to Normal. This will pervent cheesy Power-Core-snipe tactics and increase their usability against infantry blobs.
I forgot about squigg spotta doctrine which is insanely strong against buildings, excellent in eliminating turrets from afar. Despite how strong the doctrine is, nobody seems to pick it oftenly.
@YbuBaKa said:
I meant stun greande, not plasma grenade. Stun grenade cancels his Spinnin' Klaw for sure. As eldar, you could use Scorpions' Jump or banshees with silence strike doctrine to cancel the Spinnin' Klaw.
Are you sure about that? You can cancel it only on windup with anything that deals any type of cc, but once he starts spinning, I believe I tried throwing multiple stun nades and nothing. Even Whirlwind barrage has about 50% chance of kicking spinning claw. Only thing I could cancel it with is ASM jump or Gabe flip.
Menu
Comments
Shuttdown
Well there is no conversation here. Just declarations and circular logic. This is what I saw in the original feedback thread and what I felt the need to speak against. I would also argue the it "overperformed". Maybe in that one to one instance of getting hit by an ability it overperformed, but I would really like to see a count of units killed per ability. I would bet the Kommando's bomb is more even than you may think considering the context, which you clearly just disregard.
I clearly agree with you on some aspects. I originally thought the nerf wasn't so bad, then backtracked when I started considering numbers and context. I think it would have been better served as a simple change. Perhaps small radius reduction and damage type switched to normal. I thought it was silly to me that a "booby trap" would hurt structures as much. Maybe even straight damage reduction and cooldown on the scrapping ability for as far as I know Kommando can go from scrap pile to scrap pile without much delay and that did indeed hurt Ork mirror matches. Relic clearly has different ideas for the ability, however.
Jelly
How many times are you going to make this completely baseless assertion? High potency = OP? Should we remove Roks and Orbital Bombardment to cater to your needs as well?
The truth is he wasn't over-performing at all except maybe in the low skill bracket. He made almost no appearances in ESL tournaments and was usually crushed when he did. Anyone who had their head on straight knew to scout him with workers or at least not move their whole army into the point-blank, massive windup, well-advertised explosion.
Maugan_RA
The game is bleeding Huge numbers of players whilst sales of the game are good it is clear that there is a serious problem could some one from Relic please address this issue and state your future plans to save the franchise and detail road map of new content as well detailing how you feel about the games current state.
YbuBaKa
Jelly is right. Commando was not so powerful, as some people might say. But that does not mean I want his nerf to be rollbacked. This hero just needs other features, which could be used even when he is detected and seen by the enemy. For example, his Boomstik damage could be increased (it was nerfed two patches ago), or he may gain proper melee attack. Also, stun length from his smoke grenade could be increased too. The truth is: in his current condition, Commando is useless and will be overlooked by 95% Ork players due to his weakness.
Gorb
This is a rather stretched comparison to Tier 3 superabilities, compared against a single ability for a particular early-game Elite. That's an argument to absurdity, I think.
And I believe people on GameReplays have been providing replays to showcase the unit's effectiveness. IIRC you still disagree, but that doesn't mean much, it's just another case of opinion vs. opinion. Certainly, no need to start accusing people of things like "baseless assertions". There are far better ways to ask for qualifying proof than making an similar statement yourself ("The truth is . . .").
Opinion post.
Jelly
@Gorb
It's a perfectly sound comparison, as I've explained. I've written explanations several times now and doubt Katitof actually read any of them.
Watch Dulla's replay, he plays Knob essentially perfect and still gets crushed. I'm not sure why he thought a loss would be good evidence of Knob being viable.
Gorb
At a guess, because singular Elites don't decide games. The early-game ones, anyhow (outside of patched things like True Damage Scorpions). The point was to showcase the effectiveness of that particular unit.
It seems to me like these kinds of Elites are still being portrayed as DoW II Commander-alikes. No idea how much time you spent with that game, though, just a general perception thing (barring the pushback from people who prefer vDoW and thus don't like DoW II or DoW III Commanders / Elites). An individual Elite doesn't decide your army; that's why you have three choices (and three Doctrines on top of that). Losing an ESL game as Orks despite picking Kommando is no evidence of the Kommando itself insofar as it's evidence of any of the other used Elite choices underperforming.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Northanui @Jelly
Don't you guys think it would be better to up his usefulness in other ways then?
Personally I don't play Ork so - but in my experience he was good for cheesy moments and fun for it too. But his general utility was actually quite low and as everyone has said he can be hard countered to the point of almost worthlessness.
I think it would have been wise for relic to include some buff alongside this nerf. Can I encourage you guys as well as other ork players to start brain storming suitable buffs to the hero? I'd be surprised if relic were to reverse the change and it would be fun to see the Kommando Nob more often!
Jelly
@Gorb
I'm not sure what to say Gorb. He was underpicked pre-patch and now post-nerf he loses even with exceptional play. I've delineated how burdensome the ability was to use, I've illustrated that there were numerous counter-plays available, I've pointed to the high-skill bracket's repeated failure to employ him. None of that was opinion.
What could I possibly muster to satisfy your standards here, a bunch of replays of losses? Would that even prove anything?
The burden of evidence is on the pro-nerf side I don't see them producing anything.
@MaxwellsDaemon
Make his stunbomb give him a short speed buff that's lost if he's revealed, and give the same buff to nearby units when he uses it. Slotting Kommando usually precludes Stormboyz and therefore Trukk play and this could alleviate that lack of initiative somewhat while giving him a reason to not run off alone and cheese constantly.
Gorb
There are no standards you need to satisfy, I'm just in the debate here with you. That one ability was not all the Elite was capable of, and that one ability received more functional changes than actual balance changes (damage was decreased against a set of units, and increased against others. The resulting utility of this is also completely arguable, but it's a bit more nuanced than it seems to be being painted as).
You're skeptical this will lead to further changes, I am not.
Shuttdown
After getting some games in. The Kommando is still fun and can be effective with more support, but just not worth it if I'm not playing just for fun (read: I'll still play him in Annihilation). It's still almost a matter of luck between the opponent walking into or staying within any booby traps. It's like fishing. Side note...I had the realization Whirlwinds are probably a decent comparison in ability to the Kommando's ability. But even more powerful...they have wiped my armies...so when's their nerf coming (jk with a honest bit of salt).
@MaxwellsDaemon
Good points. Interested to see where it goes from here. I do expect Relic to provide at least something as an alternative option. Everyone seems to just close their ears going "lalalalala" when hard counters to him are mentioned. I think a good speed buff or dash ability would be nice. Often when I play him I try to set up traps behind enemy lines. This often leads to him getting displaced and surrounded. I think a dash with minimal damage and some knockback would be well served to increase his longevity with this play style. Also I wish they would have at least made his stun mine larger. Both physically and with the stun effect. I can't count how many times I tried to click on the ++heresy redacted++ stun mine to turn it into a bomb and end up with nothing because I'm frantically trying to click an object that is about the size of a single slugga boy while my army gets left to wonder where their commander has gone. Anyone else get this? Or is it just me fumbling around like an idiot?
YbuBaKa
Yes, booby trap activation in large battles looked like pixelhunting. Enemy troops and heroes near the trap block the activation button.
Katitof
You know you can use scrap as traps as well, right?
Kommando nob got amazing synergy with Wazmakka, where one drops scraps to blow up and gives protection while the other detonates them.
Looking at a hero in vacuum will always make it less potent then it actually is, because you don't consider all its possibilities.
DmonBlu
Use D and Z... Its not that hard lul
YbuBaKa
Of course. I am very exerienced Ork player, so I used Commando a lot. His ability to explode every piece of scrap is invaluable in mirrors. It also prevent us, Orks, to build our WAGGH! banners near shield generators for defense. It is very risky, you know, when just one elite git can explode your key structure with the defensive banners, used to protect it.
Wazmakka is total crap, you need to l34rn smth about Orks before posting such suggestions. He has interesting abilites: to catch enemy heroes and cancel their retreat attempts, to prevent different skills from use (Elektrik Wall, Spinnin' Claw, Kyre's takeoff), but he lacks true power. Other 4-pt elites are tanky, or they could wipe entire infantry armies. Gabe is tanky, versatile, he could wipe both infantry and heavy infantry. Gorgutz is even more tanky, but has less dps and crowd-control effectiveness. Even Jane has better chance to survive, than Wazmakka, due to her nice speed and charge ability, which could be used to leave the battle too. And she is excellent infantry killer.
Now look at Big Mek: what he is really capable of? Buff-debuff spell? Good, but it is channeling only one target. He could summon more scrap for Orks' needs? You don't lack scrap at the 9th minute of the game, really. But he is too weak to be the first summoned elite, so, his more realistic time of appearance is 12:00 or even 14:00. Can he improve scrap piles to allow construction of better units? Of course no. But he has an ability to turn scrap into turrets, which could be good, but it's not actually good at all. You ask me why? Because he can be interrupted by any stun grenade, or stun/silence strike and so on.
I tried to use this "impressive combo" of Big Mek and Commando nob. You order the scrap from the orbit, look at the long and amazing animation (and your enemy looks it aswell), and after it drops you can order Commando to explode the scrap. It requires 6 seconds and is completely visible to your enemy: scrap has no stun effect, unlike the booby trap. If your enemy is dumb enough to stay under the falling scrap and even ignores explosion animation, you will celebrate victory upon his twisted corpse. But only in case of combination of all factors, mentioned above.
Diogen84
Btw, Jane zar kills Gorguts 1x1) with using abilities of course.
YbuBaKa
This is why Wazmakka is a viable choice only for for-fun games. There is no 4-pt hero, which could be killed by Wazmakka 1v1. What is the point in his ability, which cancels retreats, when other 4-pt elites has no need to retreat from him? All other 4-pt guys can just smash his face.
frumpylumps
I think of the bomb as like Dark Templar from SC2. It is very punishing if you make a critical error, but it just doesn't work against wary players, and when your opponent picks kommando, you don't have to guess what they are going to do.
I would have rather seen the AoE reduced, anti-vehicle damage increased, but made to damage the squad, and slightly decrease the trigger cast duration so they can't just walk out of it after being snared. Even in the possibly broken state that kommando bomb was in, this kind of thing was what made other seemingly OP 3 point elite things feel justified.
Take Macha for example. On the same note that some people are complaining about Knob after they were punished for not only clumping up their army, but also for failing to use detection when pushing against a player that picked Kommando, they will ignore the fact that Macha can paralyze your entire army for an absurd length of time, 30 seconds, enough to kill all your base structures and multiple objectives, then set up the perfect combo on your units, and you don't have to screw up nearly as bad for her to be able to do it.
Katitof
And why wouldn't she? She is assassin/destroyer type, that means she got very high single target damage aka is best applied on heroes while skills are for wiping crowds
Gorguts role is to protect your own troops from fire, disrupt opponent and bind most dangerous squad/ranged hero.
Stoner
Have you seen Bikerush vs. Foxclaw match?...
Shuttdown
Lol, I'm actively trying to optimize this exact combo. Was literally playing this last night in Annihilation rounds. Have yet to even get one instance of it to go off without opponent just moving when the scrap is originally called down. Only played a few games, then went back to quick-matches with Stormboyz and Gorgutz. Maybe it is my play, the huge telegraph that scrap is coming, or something else. Plus its a huge commitment to one ability in 2 elite slots and 7 pts. I haven't figured out what else to really use Wazzmakka for other than shielding and pulling units from retreat.
Don't claim everyone is looking at hero in vacuum when you really just added Wazzmakka to that same vacuum. I think arguments I've made have been sufficient in showing that I am taking every consideration into account. I think I've even been impartial. I want to be convinced! Saying everyone is looking at hero in vacuum goes both ways. For example I am still waiting for anyone to offer up any example that shows any other elite ability on roster being as thoroughly countered as Kommando's scrap bomb can potentially be. Kommando really seems to be in a category of his own on this front.
YbuBaKa
You obviously have no idea how to play Orks. Please, don't distract people with your wrong conclusions.
Gorgutz is the source of free reinforcements. THIS is his main role in Da Orky WAAGH! Other tasks are secondary and tertiary. His ability to defend Orks with Spinnin' Claw is wonderful, but keep in mind, it can be easily interrupted with ASM jump or with grenade. His other ability is nice for capturing retreating enemy troops, but can be interrupted with stun grenade, or Gabriel's Hammerslam.
DmonBlu
To be honest Wakmaza is a zoning hereo not a damage dealing one. His scrap sight is invaluable becuz its essentially free vision and vision is one of the most important thing in a RTS (in any game actually). His pull is weak but its decent for catching that annoying runner and kill him off before he can heal and cumback to annoy u. His free scrap is HUGE in the mid/late game since u wont be having 5 Waaagh! tower producing scraps every game and scrap is like larvas for Ork, u cant live with out it. Especially if u r running mech heavy comp like Killa Kans/ Any tanky units combo. Scrap turret isnt as useful as ppl think but its supposed to be a zoning tool, make the enemy NOT engage u and possibly retreat and w8 for the turrets to expire (a few seconds can decide the fate of a man
). As supported by all the points above, Wakmaza certainly has his uses IMO, he isnt useless as ppl made him out to be
AngelofDeth
Grenade can't interrupt gorgutz spinning ability, only if you managed to land it right before gorgutz started to spin which mean, depends on your luck. Gorgutz is fine, I have no problem against him mostly, just a bit annoying.
YbuBaKa
I meant stun greande, not plasma grenade. Stun grenade cancels his Spinnin' Klaw for sure. As eldar, you could use Scorpions' Jump or banshees with silence strike doctrine to cancel the Spinnin' Klaw.
AngelofDeth
Btw, any upcoming changes to vyper? They're very interesting to utilize but since they can't even handle 2 shots, it's really a waste for 125 power. I have suggestion, make their Q ability a skillshot instead of the current one because they can't even get close to set up their Q. I would love to see more of deffkoppta and big trak, maybe a slight buff to them would be good?
AngelofDeth
I see, interesting. Stun grenade like tacts' or scouts'? I've seen scout's grenade couldn't stun gorgutz when he is spinning, unless before he had a chance to do it.
YbuBaKa
I agree about vyper and deffkopta, they are a waste of resources. But I have to disagree about big traks: they are fine. I think, they even deserve a small nerf. It is too easy to snipe objectives with them with "F" button. You don't even need the sight. Big trak deals AP damage, so it's very effective for destroying turrets and Power Core. Let's change damage of "Kill 'em from the Far" to Normal. This will pervent cheesy Power-Core-snipe tactics and increase their usability against infantry blobs.
AngelofDeth
I forgot about squigg spotta doctrine which is insanely strong against buildings, excellent in eliminating turrets from afar. Despite how strong the doctrine is, nobody seems to pick it oftenly.
Stoner
Are you sure about that? You can cancel it only on windup with anything that deals any type of cc, but once he starts spinning, I believe I tried throwing multiple stun nades and nothing. Even Whirlwind barrage has about 50% chance of kicking spinning claw. Only thing I could cancel it with is ASM jump or Gabe flip.