@n0ave_ said:
Frumpylumps you did the same exact trash talk on vindicare stream.
Also there were no time period when sc2 had "Diamond highest rank". There was always master league and good players got into master league during the first season.
And I have invested only 30% of the time you invested in sc2.
You trashed talk bikerush who is top 5 with ALL races, and for your information I`m ranked 2 with SM and ranked 14 with Eldar.
Would you like me to link the vindicarex VOD from twitch where you joined in and started to trash talk that nobody is playing this game good and only you know best since you played a lot of sc2. And I did a simple google search and found out you were a bottom feeder in sc2, just like you are in dow3.
At least stick with your opinions and stop editing your posts.
Nobs are really strong when first fielded, but lose their usefulness as the game goes on and more av is fielded so I wouldn't call them OP. But I can understand that there should be a possible change to make them not as good from like 8-15 mins but still alright to use 20mins+
@DaDokisinX said:
Very Easy to Rush a nob out when you have to spend basically 0 power and just scrap up your basic squad to be murder machines.
The ability to make the boyz hut in 20 seconds along with waaagh towers being too hard to push into in the first minutes gives Orks a big advantage to dominate the map, and the waaagh buff and their early elites basically guarantee they do not need to spend any power to not only hold off and their enemies, but dominate them.
This why is why need BIG maps - so you can put down a WAAAGH tower + boyz hut and cover 50% of the map in one placement...
I played Crucible of Vaul in a 1v1 match for ESL and it felt wayyy better than most of the 1v1 map pool. The small map size worked fine for DoW2 (and DoW1) because of the fall back/victory point/on field reinforcement mechanic. But since the fights in DoW3 pace and play more like classic RTS - Starcraft - it follows those same principles and therefore needs big maps for good balance and game pacing.
yet again a lot of people dont understand the game at a pro level. if you think orks are fine then you are the problem im not saying over kill nerf. but lets look at this.
ork units are cheap fast easy to replace. early game boys can take on asm 1on1 very easy. and then use the shild and take no dmg. cost 500 to like 350 and you can get boys out of main base. asm 200 plus 500 Balance.. thats just 1 thing. relic nerfed stalking scops so bad stormboys rekted them before patch now totally smash. orks have the best heros. orks have the best anti tank . plus wahhhh 50% more damge on small maps ? so always 50 plus more already shooter are still insane still. GORGUTZ ’EAD’UNTER never diessssssssssss are you for real tho comon now this guy is toooo good .
nobz ATTRIBUTES
High health
Strong melee
Crowd control
High health strong melee ... erm why have they got both.. hoesntly and crowd control Explosive Armour (Passive) with this Taunt is a joke plus Scrap upgrade
plus WAAAAAGH ++heresy redacted++ GG Game over
its very late here but relic... you have to balance for 1v1 not just 3v3 ...... why not invite the top 3 players from all races. in to a chat group and listen but hey keep wasting your time on bad patchs. its cool maybe if you listned to top tier players you would have postive reviews. and add a ++heresy redacted++ race talk about something hype the game with something new... and add obsserver honestlyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy......................... i see this being removed but w/e god dam i got like 600 hours in this game already god dam son stop being lazy with adding 2v2 maps in to 1v1 map pool and 3v3 map in to 2v2 map pool. and make some good maps if you honestly showed people that you took pride in this game and listen and not just remove ban anyone who says anything bad you would could turn this hole thing around. like honestly i never understand here are some tips for you
top 4 of each race each month play in a ladder wars etc for a price pool of say $100
being top 2 each month each race will be rewarded. $20 etc
cups for 1v1/2v2/3v3 price pool such small things and hardly any $ you have to spent this are just ideas this would make people play the game even if they didnt like the game that much just try to win money and have fun. you think starcraft would be alive if they didnt put money in to it. i know this is about orks but had to rant this ...... get your ++heresy redacted++ get your ++heresy redacted++ together so we can have a good playerbase and game For the love of god tho add a ++heresy redacted++ race
Relic please keep in mind that lots of these players now complaining about Orks just lost a tourney to good ork players.
Many of them were saying Ork vs sm fight is really close to balanced just a few weeks ago. They are overstating things due to salt.
Take a look at storm boy and feel out the balance but please slowly make adjustments not drastic shifts. I saw one of these players saying Ork should have no damage at all on their waagh (despite the advantages that every other race's faction mechanic gives them) so I can't take all these criticisms as objective.
None of the top SM players were saying SM v Ork was very close a few weeks ago. This issue has been apparent for a while.
Relic probably needs to re work the waaagh mechanic in some way. Perhaps a scaling benefit to the buff (more waaagh towers = stronger buff) cause right now 1 tower buff is just as good as any. They probably also need to reduce their effectiveness has turrets in some manner as well.
Ork is so ridiculous now that ppl have figured them out. Nobz rush is basically a free win less the foe is Eldar and have decent micro. Late game Ork is supposed to be the strongest due to scrap mechanic but their early game isnt supposed to be THAT strong. Like really, they even beat SM -the race that is supposed to have the strongest early game with tacs and scouts. Its almost impossible to rush a good Ork if he just turtle and hold like 2 points then cumback with the Waaagh! and scrap mechanic. Relic should reduce the total pop to prevent spam IMO. Late game Ork just have way too much stuff and if boosted by Waaagh!, no army no matter what composition can beat them. To top it off the pop needs to be reduced, towers need to be nerfed and most importantly, their t1 squad size reduced so they cant just swarm everything.
@DmonBlu said:
Ork is so ridiculous now that ppl have figured them out. Nobz rush is basically a free win less the foe is Eldar and have decent micro. Late game Ork is supposed to be the strongest due to scrap mechanic but their early game isnt supposed to be THAT strong. Like really, they even beat SM -the race that is supposed to have the strongest early game with tacs and scouts. Its almost impossible to rush a good Ork if he just turtle and hold like 2 points then cumback with the Waaagh! and scrap mechanic. Relic should reduce the total pop to prevent spam IMO. Late game Ork just have way too much stuff and if boosted by Waaagh!, no army no matter what composition can beat them. To top it off the pop needs to be reduced, towers need to be nerfed and most importantly, their t1 squad size reduced so they cant just swarm everything.
"Ork is so ridiculous now that ppl have figured them out."
Now that people have figured them out. I like that you said that. Lets keep in mind Ork didn't just get some new huge buff as far as I know.
Now that orks have figured things out well it sometimes takes time for their opponents to adapt and refocus their efforts on Ork weaknesses.
I feel like sometimes people jump on the balance excuse train waaaaay too early especially when their ego is tied up in being one of the best players. Instead of saying hmm what could I have done different and where is this orks weakness ppl say I am one of the best players I shouldn't be getting crushed! They must be imbalanced!
All while walking straight into waaghs and fighting it out and never trying to snipe ork waagh towers aka playing right into orks strongest points.
I am not saying balance is perfect but it for sure is not as bad as people would have you believe in this thread.
@DaDokisinX said:
None of the top SM players were saying SM v Ork was very close a few weeks ago. This issue has been apparent for a while.
Relic probably needs to re work the waaagh mechanic in some way. Perhaps a scaling benefit to the buff (more waaagh towers = stronger buff) cause right now 1 tower buff is just as good as any. They probably also need to reduce their effectiveness has turrets in some manner as well.
I said "these players"
If I remember correctly VindicareX was advocating for what looks like a buff for boyz what 3 weeks ago?
"Boyz: Perhaps reduce their cost to 270 requisition, but slightly, slightly decrease their DPS. This way, they will act more like the “green tide” and cannon fodder units and will have a role in late game as a cheap requisition sink. This will help them scale throughout the game instead of ignoring them I think"
What you don't understand is the fact that season 1 of 2010 lasted until the master league was release.
So good people still got into master league during the first season. So basically master league did exist in the first season even if it was not available at launch.
You can check my profile and see that I was in master league in 2010 - season 1.
There has always been a master league tied to each season in sc2 after the beta. But people will always twist facts to boost their self-esteem by saying that that diamond league was the highest league available so it`s normal that they are only diamond.
@n0ave_ said:
Bottom line, nobz are hard to deal with because they can be available really fast.
But there are ways to counter them even at the 8 minute mark.
It`s either scouts mines or shadow specters for SM & Eldar.
Scout Stuns and Lascannons can also work for SM; Landspeeders with Melta are good at it, but like Dreadnoughts, they will cost a lot of Energy.
What you don't understand is the fact that season 1 of 2010 lasted until the master league was release.
So good people still got into master league during the first season. So basically master league did exist in the first season even if it was not available at launch.
You can check my profile and see that I was in master league in 2010 - season 1.
There has always been a master league tied to the seasons in sc2. So yeah, that's true but people who were never good only got to lower leagues and never actually manage to improve themselves.
I was just responding to this statement
"Also there were no time period when sc2 had "Diamond highest rank"
which is factually incorrect. Its ok to just say yea I was wrong about that. I have to do that sometimes too.
@n0ave_ said:
Bottom line, nobz are hard to deal with because they can be available really fast.
But there are ways to counter them even at the 8 minute mark.
It`s either scouts mines or shadow specters for SM & Eldar.
Scout Stuns and Lascannons can also work for SM; Landspeeders with Melta are good at it, but like Dreadnoughts, they will cost a lot of Energy.
Speeder with melta is good, the problem is that they cost a lot to be fielded.
200 power to get to T2, 140 for the machine cult and 175 for the land speeder + 50 for the melta = 565 power
Compared to 3 x 75 Waaagh towers + 200 for the nobs = 425 power.
And LS are hard countered by tank bustats, that`s why nobody is building them anymore, even with melta upgrade they are very squishy and required to be heavy doctrined in order to do decent.
@n0ave_ said:
Bottom line, nobz are hard to deal with because they can be available really fast.
But there are ways to counter them even at the 8 minute mark.
It`s either scouts mines or shadow specters for SM & Eldar.
Scout Stuns and Lascannons can also work for SM; Landspeeders with Melta are good at it, but like Dreadnoughts, they will cost a lot of Energy.
Speeder with melta is good, the problem is that they cost a lot to be fielded.
200 power to get to T2, 140 for the machine cult and 175 for the land speeder + 50 for the melta = 565 power
Compared to 3 x 75 Waaagh towers + 200 for the nobs = 425 power.
And LS are hard countered by tank bustats, that`s why nobody is building them anymore, even with melta upgrade they are very squishy and required to be heavy doctrined in order to do decent.
Same reason nobody builds Vypers, they are too easy to counter, though Landspeeders at least can do decent damage in a short time.
This is one of the reasons why I was for changing how true damage works on objectives versus just moving the sm asm true damage upgrade to t2.
Previously SM would have been able to get asm with true damage and hurt nobs. Now that change may be giving some SM a harder time now that orks are playing very well.
What you don't understand is the fact that season 1 of 2010 lasted until the master league was release.
So good people still got into master league during the first season. So basically master league did exist in the first season even if it was not available at launch.
You can check my profile and see that I was in master league in 2010 - season 1.
There has always been a master league tied to the seasons in sc2. So yeah, that's true but people who were never good only got to lower leagues and never actually manage to improve themselves.
I was just responding to this statement
"Also there were no time period when sc2 had "Diamond highest rank"
which is factually incorrect. Its ok to just say yea I was wrong about that. I have to do that sometimes too.
It`s been more then 7 years from that period, I checked my player profile I saw that I was master league from the first season (named 2010 season in the ladder).
If there would have been a season tied to diamond league that would have remained on the player profile and I wouldn't have missed it.
Like I said season wise there was no period when Diamond was highest so the fact that @frumpylumps defends himself by saying diamond was the highest so that's why he is only diamond even tho he played 7000 games, imagine even if all those games were rushes. How much time did he spend and never managed to improve his gameplay to get into master league even tho it was very easy and tens of thousands of people managed to get it.
The main problem with people like him is the fact that the dow3 player pool that actually plays 1v1 is very very small.
So when he looks into the ladder and see that he is rank 100 he things that he is actually good, because in other competitve RTS like sc2 he used to be ranked in the tens of thousands (20,000 to 99,999 rank) probably even lower.
Lul Vyper is more like a support unit with the time warp ability. Since the entire Eldar vehicle roster r skimmers there is no need to build vyper but if u get only one and micro them u will do much better IMO. The time warp might not look like a lot but if u got the stun doctrine for them it can be a game changer sometimes. Its more like a zoning machine than combat unit and somewhat lessen Eldar weak artillery (yes Fire Prism sucks comparing to a whirlwind and they r T3....). Basically treat them like infestor in SC 2 build only a few of them for support purposes. If u need a combat unit then Falcon is 10x times better than vyper and it can transport troop too
@DmonBlu said:
Lul Vyper is more like a support unit with the time warp ability. Since the entire Eldar vehicle roster r skimmers there is no need to build vyper but if u get only one and micro them u will do much better IMO. The time warp might not look like a lot but if u got the stun doctrine for them it can be a game changer sometimes. Its more like a zoning machine than combat unit and somewhat lessen Eldar weak artillery (yes Fire Prism sucks comparing to a whirlwind and they r T3....). Basically treat them like infestor in SC 2 build only a few of them for support purposes. If u need a combat unit then Falcon is 10x times better than vyper and it can transport troop too
Vyper is useless on a faction that already has so much micro, and being a support unit does not excuse that it underperforms, or is so easily destroyed, specially since it has neither burst potential, or great range.
@n0ave_ said:
Bottom line, nobz are hard to deal with because they can be available really fast.
But there are ways to counter them even at the 8 minute mark.
It`s either scouts mines or shadow specters for SM & Eldar.
Too good at that point but too bad when its 20+ and there's mass of las devs/dreads/preds, specters/wraith units. What would u suggest be done to balance this?
Nobs are somewhat unique in that the Heavy Armour allows them to easily dominate early game units/elites but they get really weak as the game gets later due to a lot more anti-heavy Armour being fielded and them only doing normal damage.
Not sure, if Nobz should be locked behind a 4th waaaagh tower, they will probably become a rare unit then and people will get directly into dreads for the same power amount. Also dreads do not bleed.
They are hard to deal with at the moment, but far from impossible. I have won multiple games vs orks that fielded nobz.
@jonoliveira12 said:
Vyper is useless on a faction that already has so much micro, and being a support unit does not excuse that it underperforms, or is so easily destroyed, specially since it has neither burst potential, or great range.
Lul its job is primarily throw the time bomb and then run, thats it. It help u retreat after a successful attack since the time bomb's range is quite big and will mess up ur pursuers and thats it. It neednt burst or range ir tankiness cuz its only got one job, to zone the enemy. Its useless to most Eldar players becuz its very expensive for its worth and they always prefer to manfight the enemy instead of hit n run like Eldar is supposed to be played. Thats fine cuz Relic included the Wraithguards for that reason. The vyper is only useful for those who prefer guerilla warfare and it helps them with the running away part.
@n0ave_ said:
Not sure, if Nobz should be locked behind a 4th waaaagh tower, they will probably become a rare unit then and people will get directly into dreads for the same power amount. Also dreads do not bleed.
They are hard to deal with at the moment, but far from impossible. I have won multiple games vs orks that fielded nobz.
Maybe change their damage type to true but nerf the number to maybe 60 dps? this would essentially almost half their damage but still be tanky when fielded early against armies with just normal Armour/normal damage but the true damage would make them scale better in late game when atm they are weakest.
@n0ave_ said:
What exactly do I need to learn to play?
I didn't said anything more then the fact that 1 or 2 Shadow specters can counter the early nobz.
You don't make any sense and again you start to edit your posts.
Your post ended with "Git gud". And now with "Learn to play".
Sometimes I would love to see @Gorb more active on this forums to cleanse them.
Two things here. Three, actually.
The post you're talking about was made nine hours ago; not a terrible amount of time to not moderate threads for. That places the post about midnight my time. I'm not usually up then!
You and others have indulged in equally as-petty arguments around and since that post. Two wrongs do not ever make a right.
Nobody actually Flagged any posts in this thread. We rely on you using this feature so we don't have to manually read every single post made on the forums.
Really, this kind of attitude helps nobody. Neither does @frumpylumps'. Or @Katitof's. @vindicarex's for that record, considering the issue here is disrespect towards other posters. This community style of moderation where players who know each other like to jump on the one poster they all disagree with needs to stop.
Use the Report function, and it alone, please. If you involve yourself, you put yourself at risk of breaking the rules as well. Everybody please bear this in mind in future.
@Gorb I agree, I got carried away because @frumpylumps pissed me off on the twitch stream chat, and I see he adopted the same attitude here.
I do not understand why a casual player like him uses "Scrubs, Git good, and Learn to play" phrases on this forum.
He was the one that started the disrespecting attitude, to be honest I would not even post in this thread if he did not post the following sentence:
@frumpylumps said:
You can counter nobz with falcons. Learn to play, scrub.
After that he started to edit his posts to make them look better.
after and irrespective of all the drama I can only say.....
Who the hell uses falcons to counter nobs?
The rock, paper, scissors armour system is pretty straight forward. Armour piercing for heavy armour....normal damage for normal armour. True damage for both.
That alone should be enough to say you're trying to cut a rock with scissors - regardless of experience, micro skill or whatever....
Add on top of that your talking about 500power spent (on the 2 falcons alone) to counter a 200 power unit.....come on....why even give this claim much more than a
I played a lot with this popular fast-nobs tactic and I am bored with it. Nobs require Wierdboy or Commando, otherwise they don't worth all efforts. To field a nobs squad, I have to refrain from constructing requisition generators and skip all infantry upgrades. This is too lame in my opinion. Yes, fast nobs are still effective even after Taunt nerf, but I personally dislike to play with 3-pt heroes AND without infantry upgrades. I have no problem in Orky mirrors with enemy nobs. I always have two tankbusta squads at 07:30 mark. This is enough to counter them. Why can't you guys do the same with your shadow spectres and lascannon devs? Are they way worse than my tankbustas? I don't think so.
Btw, all this discussion around countering nobs with falcons is 100% offtopic. Why do you waste your time?
Reasoning: mid game they're a massive impact unit, not because they do a ton of damage, but they're just extremely hard to kill, allowing the rest of the army to mop up. Give them normal armour and you should be able to shoot them down on approach more easily.
Late game they die alot faster to all the AV and tanks that find their way onto the field, and because they die quickly, they don't really achieve much with their normal type damage. If you give them true damage they'll be able to make a better impact late game without having much more of an advantage early game.
This is by no means going to solve every issue with them, I can see the true damage being a problem if you use them to push powercores (esp if launching from truks). But I'd imagine them working better this way than they are currently.
Unless we get another armour and damage type for mid game units so they'll be more powerful without going balls-to-the wall true damage?
Menu
Comments
Wardemon
"Also there were no time period when sc2 had "Diamond highest rank". There was always master league"
Sorry but that is not true. Master league did not exist at launch of sc2
https://www.engadget.com/2011/01/13/blizzard-launches-starcraft-2-master-league-plans-for-grandmast/
PaperBaG
Nobs are really strong when first fielded, but lose their usefulness as the game goes on and more av is fielded so I wouldn't call them OP. But I can understand that there should be a possible change to make them not as good from like 8-15 mins but still alright to use 20mins+
vindicarex
This why is why need BIG maps - so you can put down a WAAAGH tower + boyz hut and cover 50% of the map in one placement...
I played Crucible of Vaul in a 1v1 match for ESL and it felt wayyy better than most of the 1v1 map pool. The small map size worked fine for DoW2 (and DoW1) because of the fall back/victory point/on field reinforcement mechanic. But since the fights in DoW3 pace and play more like classic RTS - Starcraft - it follows those same principles and therefore needs big maps for good balance and game pacing.
bikerushownz
for relic
yet again a lot of people dont understand the game at a pro level. if you think orks are fine then you are the problem im not saying over kill nerf. but lets look at this.
ork units are cheap fast easy to replace. early game boys can take on asm 1on1 very easy. and then use the shild and take no dmg. cost 500 to like 350 and you can get boys out of main base. asm 200 plus 500 Balance.. thats just 1 thing. relic nerfed stalking scops so bad stormboys rekted them before patch now totally smash. orks have the best heros. orks have the best anti tank . plus wahhhh 50% more damge on small maps ? so always 50 plus more already shooter are still insane still. GORGUTZ ’EAD’UNTER never diessssssssssss are you for real tho comon now this guy is toooo good .
nobz ATTRIBUTES
High health
Strong melee
Crowd control
High health strong melee ... erm why have they got both.. hoesntly and crowd control Explosive Armour (Passive) with this Taunt is a joke plus Scrap upgrade
plus WAAAAAGH ++heresy redacted++ GG Game over
its very late here but relic... you have to balance for 1v1 not just 3v3 ...... why not invite the top 3 players from all races. in to a chat group and listen but hey keep wasting your time on bad patchs. its cool maybe if you listned to top tier players you would have postive reviews. and add a ++heresy redacted++ race talk about something hype the game with something new... and add obsserver honestlyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy......................... i see this being removed but w/e god dam i got like 600 hours in this game already god dam son stop being lazy with adding 2v2 maps in to 1v1 map pool and 3v3 map in to 2v2 map pool. and make some good maps if you honestly showed people that you took pride in this game and listen and not just remove ban anyone who says anything bad you would could turn this hole thing around. like honestly i never understand here are some tips for you
top 4 of each race each month play in a ladder wars etc for a price pool of say $100
being top 2 each month each race will be rewarded. $20 etc
cups for 1v1/2v2/3v3 price pool such small things and hardly any $ you have to spent this are just ideas this would make people play the game even if they didnt like the game that much just try to win money and have fun. you think starcraft would be alive if they didnt put money in to it. i know this is about orks but had to rant this ...... get your ++heresy redacted++ get your ++heresy redacted++ together so we can have a good playerbase and game For the love of god tho add a ++heresy redacted++ race
Wardemon
Relic please keep in mind that lots of these players now complaining about Orks just lost a tourney to good ork players.
Many of them were saying Ork vs sm fight is really close to balanced just a few weeks ago. They are overstating things due to salt.
Take a look at storm boy and feel out the balance but please slowly make adjustments not drastic shifts. I saw one of these players saying Ork should have no damage at all on their waagh (despite the advantages that every other race's faction mechanic gives them) so I can't take all these criticisms as objective.
DaDokisinX
None of the top SM players were saying SM v Ork was very close a few weeks ago. This issue has been apparent for a while.
Relic probably needs to re work the waaagh mechanic in some way. Perhaps a scaling benefit to the buff (more waaagh towers = stronger buff) cause right now 1 tower buff is just as good as any. They probably also need to reduce their effectiveness has turrets in some manner as well.
DmonBlu
Ork is so ridiculous now that ppl have figured them out. Nobz rush is basically a free win less the foe is Eldar and have decent micro. Late game Ork is supposed to be the strongest due to scrap mechanic but their early game isnt supposed to be THAT strong. Like really, they even beat SM -the race that is supposed to have the strongest early game with tacs and scouts. Its almost impossible to rush a good Ork if he just turtle and hold like 2 points then cumback with the Waaagh! and scrap mechanic. Relic should reduce the total pop to prevent spam IMO. Late game Ork just have way too much stuff and if boosted by Waaagh!, no army no matter what composition can beat them. To top it off the pop needs to be reduced, towers need to be nerfed and most importantly, their t1 squad size reduced so they cant just swarm everything.
Wardemon
"Ork is so ridiculous now that ppl have figured them out."
Now that people have figured them out. I like that you said that. Lets keep in mind Ork didn't just get some new huge buff as far as I know.
Now that orks have figured things out well it sometimes takes time for their opponents to adapt and refocus their efforts on Ork weaknesses.
I feel like sometimes people jump on the balance excuse train waaaaay too early especially when their ego is tied up in being one of the best players. Instead of saying hmm what could I have done different and where is this orks weakness ppl say I am one of the best players I shouldn't be getting crushed! They must be imbalanced!
All while walking straight into waaghs and fighting it out and never trying to snipe ork waagh towers aka playing right into orks strongest points.
I am not saying balance is perfect but it for sure is not as bad as people would have you believe in this thread.
Wardemon
I said "these players"
If I remember correctly VindicareX was advocating for what looks like a buff for boyz what 3 weeks ago?
https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/13552/balance-analysis-of-orks/p1
"Boyz: Perhaps reduce their cost to 270 requisition, but slightly, slightly decrease their DPS. This way, they will act more like the “green tide” and cannon fodder units and will have a role in late game as a cheap requisition sink. This will help them scale throughout the game instead of ignoring them I think"
n0ave_
@ware> @Wardemon said:
What you don't understand is the fact that season 1 of 2010 lasted until the master league was release.
So good people still got into master league during the first season. So basically master league did exist in the first season even if it was not available at launch.
You can check my profile and see that I was in master league in 2010 - season 1.
There has always been a master league tied to each season in sc2 after the beta. But people will always twist facts to boost their self-esteem by saying that that diamond league was the highest league available so it`s normal that they are only diamond.
The first season lasted 8-9 months.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Battle.net_Seasons
n0ave_
Bottom line, nobz are hard to deal with because they can be available really fast.
But there are ways to counter them even at the 8 minute mark.
It`s either scouts mines or shadow specters for SM & Eldar.
jonoliveira12
Scout Stuns and Lascannons can also work for SM; Landspeeders with Melta are good at it, but like Dreadnoughts, they will cost a lot of Energy.
Wardemon
I was just responding to this statement
"Also there were no time period when sc2 had "Diamond highest rank"
which is factually incorrect. Its ok to just say yea I was wrong about that. I have to do that sometimes too.
n0ave_
Speeder with melta is good, the problem is that they cost a lot to be fielded.
200 power to get to T2, 140 for the machine cult and 175 for the land speeder + 50 for the melta = 565 power
Compared to 3 x 75 Waaagh towers + 200 for the nobs = 425 power.
And LS are hard countered by tank bustats, that`s why nobody is building them anymore, even with melta upgrade they are very squishy and required to be heavy doctrined in order to do decent.
jonoliveira12
Same reason nobody builds Vypers, they are too easy to counter, though Landspeeders at least can do decent damage in a short time.
n0ave_
@jonoliveira12
Yes, Vypers have always been very very weak, I'm sure we can all agree on this.
Wardemon
This is one of the reasons why I was for changing how true damage works on objectives versus just moving the sm asm true damage upgrade to t2.
Previously SM would have been able to get asm with true damage and hurt nobs. Now that change may be giving some SM a harder time now that orks are playing very well.
n0ave_
It`s been more then 7 years from that period, I checked my player profile I saw that I was master league from the first season (named 2010 season in the ladder).
If there would have been a season tied to diamond league that would have remained on the player profile and I wouldn't have missed it.
Like I said season wise there was no period when Diamond was highest so the fact that @frumpylumps defends himself by saying diamond was the highest so that's why he is only diamond even tho he played 7000 games, imagine even if all those games were rushes. How much time did he spend and never managed to improve his gameplay to get into master league even tho it was very easy and tens of thousands of people managed to get it.
The main problem with people like him is the fact that the dow3 player pool that actually plays 1v1 is very very small.
So when he looks into the ladder and see that he is rank 100 he things that he is actually good, because in other competitve RTS like sc2 he used to be ranked in the tens of thousands (20,000 to 99,999 rank) probably even lower.
DmonBlu
Lul Vyper is more like a support unit with the time warp ability. Since the entire Eldar vehicle roster r skimmers there is no need to build vyper but if u get only one and micro them u will do much better IMO. The time warp might not look like a lot but if u got the stun doctrine for them it can be a game changer sometimes. Its more like a zoning machine than combat unit and somewhat lessen Eldar weak artillery (yes Fire Prism sucks comparing to a whirlwind and they r T3....). Basically treat them like infestor in SC 2 build only a few of them for support purposes. If u need a combat unit then Falcon is 10x times better than vyper and it can transport troop too
jonoliveira12
Vyper is useless on a faction that already has so much micro, and being a support unit does not excuse that it underperforms, or is so easily destroyed, specially since it has neither burst potential, or great range.
PaperBaG
Too good at that point but too bad when its 20+ and there's mass of las devs/dreads/preds, specters/wraith units. What would u suggest be done to balance this?
Nobs are somewhat unique in that the Heavy Armour allows them to easily dominate early game units/elites but they get really weak as the game gets later due to a lot more anti-heavy Armour being fielded and them only doing normal damage.
n0ave_
Not sure, if Nobz should be locked behind a 4th waaaagh tower, they will probably become a rare unit then and people will get directly into dreads for the same power amount. Also dreads do not bleed.
They are hard to deal with at the moment, but far from impossible. I have won multiple games vs orks that fielded nobz.
DmonBlu
Lul its job is primarily throw the time bomb and then run, thats it. It help u retreat after a successful attack since the time bomb's range is quite big and will mess up ur pursuers and thats it. It neednt burst or range ir tankiness cuz its only got one job, to zone the enemy. Its useless to most Eldar players becuz its very expensive for its worth and they always prefer to manfight the enemy instead of hit n run like Eldar is supposed to be played. Thats fine cuz Relic included the Wraithguards for that reason. The vyper is only useful for those who prefer guerilla warfare and it helps them with the running away part.
PaperBaG
Maybe change their damage type to true but nerf the number to maybe 60 dps? this would essentially almost half their damage but still be tanky when fielded early against armies with just normal Armour/normal damage but the true damage would make them scale better in late game when atm they are weakest.
Gorb
Two things here. Three, actually.
Really, this kind of attitude helps nobody. Neither does @frumpylumps'. Or @Katitof's. @vindicarex's for that record, considering the issue here is disrespect towards other posters. This community style of moderation where players who know each other like to jump on the one poster they all disagree with needs to stop.
Use the Report function, and it alone, please. If you involve yourself, you put yourself at risk of breaking the rules as well. Everybody please bear this in mind in future.
Moderator Post
n0ave_
@Gorb I agree, I got carried away because @frumpylumps pissed me off on the twitch stream chat, and I see he adopted the same attitude here.
I do not understand why a casual player like him uses "Scrubs, Git good, and Learn to play" phrases on this forum.
He was the one that started the disrespecting attitude, to be honest I would not even post in this thread if he did not post the following sentence:
@frumpylumps said:
You can counter nobz with falcons. Learn to play, scrub.
After that he started to edit his posts to make them look better.
MaxwellsDaemon
after and irrespective of all the drama I can only say.....
Who the hell uses falcons to counter nobs?
The rock, paper, scissors armour system is pretty straight forward. Armour piercing for heavy armour....normal damage for normal armour. True damage for both.
That alone should be enough to say you're trying to cut a rock with scissors - regardless of experience, micro skill or whatever....
Add on top of that your talking about 500power spent (on the 2 falcons alone) to counter a 200 power unit.....come on....why even give this claim much more than a
'Sorry that doesn't make sense'
and move on...
Necrowyrm
Orks are fine because all the races are fairly bs right now.
YbuBaKa
I played a lot with this popular fast-nobs tactic and I am bored with it. Nobs require Wierdboy or Commando, otherwise they don't worth all efforts. To field a nobs squad, I have to refrain from constructing requisition generators and skip all infantry upgrades. This is too lame in my opinion. Yes, fast nobs are still effective even after Taunt nerf, but I personally dislike to play with 3-pt heroes AND without infantry upgrades. I have no problem in Orky mirrors with enemy nobs. I always have two tankbusta squads at 07:30 mark. This is enough to counter them. Why can't you guys do the same with your shadow spectres and lascannon devs? Are they way worse than my tankbustas? I don't think so.
Btw, all this discussion around countering nobs with falcons is 100% offtopic. Why do you waste your time?
Cursed
Give them normal armour and true damage.
Simples.
Reasoning: mid game they're a massive impact unit, not because they do a ton of damage, but they're just extremely hard to kill, allowing the rest of the army to mop up. Give them normal armour and you should be able to shoot them down on approach more easily.
Late game they die alot faster to all the AV and tanks that find their way onto the field, and because they die quickly, they don't really achieve much with their normal type damage. If you give them true damage they'll be able to make a better impact late game without having much more of an advantage early game.
This is by no means going to solve every issue with them, I can see the true damage being a problem if you use them to push powercores (esp if launching from truks). But I'd imagine them working better this way than they are currently.
Unless we get another armour and damage type for mid game units so they'll be more powerful without going balls-to-the wall true damage?