Lul doesnt Wraithguard counter Nobz? Besides Ork cant deal with DA spam since they r wayyy too slow and somewhat power heavy. Boy if u save up those power for Nobz u will have some serious problems when DAs rush into your house and u cant even catch them. If they see a Waaagh! tower out of postion they will spam like10 grenades and wipe out ur whole army. Even if u managed to get Nobz u will still get kited to death due to SS and if u decide to babysit them they will go for gen as Ork has limited ways to deal with the flying assholes. Nobz is only a problem for SM due to their limited mobility and relies heavily on T1 units which Nobz tend to roll over them. Eldar line infantry is T2 and has a huge amount of mobility and started out as anti-armor so Nobz is essentialy useless assuming ur opponent is half way decent and knows how how to dodge the Q from Nobz... Either cases Nobz rush is just a Ork vs SM matchup problem, Eldar really doesnt have any problems with them .In fact, they love to have a turtling opponent so they can tech up and mass wraith units easier
@DmonBlu said:
Lul doesnt Wraithguard counter Nobz? Besides Ork cant deal with DA spam since they r wayyy too slow and somewhat power heavy. Boy if u save up those power for Nobz u will have some serious problems when DAs rush into your house and u cant even catch them. If they see a Waaagh! tower out of postion they will spam like10 grenades and wipe out ur whole army. Even if u managed to get Nobz u will still get kited to death due to SS and if u decide to babysit them they will go for gen as Ork has limited ways to deal with the flying assholes. Nobz is only a problem for SM due to their limited mobility and relies heavily on T1 units which Nobz tend to roll over them. Eldar line infantry is T2 and has a huge amount of mobility and started out as anti-armor so Nobz is essentialy useless assuming ur opponent is half way decent and knows how how to dodge the Q from Nobz... Either cases Nobz rush is just a Ork vs SM matchup problem, Eldar really doesnt have any problems with them .In fact, they love to have a turtling opponent so they can tech up and mass wraith units easier
Lootas will just smash DA spam, so will Trukks with Stormboy doctrine.
@Bigamo said:
imo the problem of nobs coming too early isn't a real nob problem, is more about boys overperforming so much that orks can just tech like there is no tomorrow.
Boyz are fine, Orkz does not need more nerfs, in my opinion.
@Bigamo said:
imo the problem of nobs coming too early isn't a real nob problem, is more about boys overperforming so much that orks can just tech like there is no tomorrow.
Boyz are fine, Orkz does not need more nerfs, in my opinion.
Ok - maybe I can build dreadnought out of doctrine chapel then so I can counter Orkz - Kappa!
@Bigamo said:
imo the problem of nobs coming too early isn't a real nob problem, is more about boys overperforming so much that orks can just tech like there is no tomorrow.
Boyz are fine, Orkz does not need more nerfs, in my opinion.
Ok - maybe I can build dreadnought out of doctrine chapel then so I can counter Orkz - Kappa!
I just don't want everything to get super nerfed. Heck, Deathstorms are OP as all hell, yet I do not complain!
Those things can kill buildings.
@jonoliveira12 said:
Lootas will just smash DA spam, so will Trukks with Stormboy doctrine.
No they wont, wraithguards will tank their hit all day besides u have 0 req gain so u wont be building too many of them anyways (assuming u go full power gen to rush Nobz). Irdk why Boyz is the problem here they r too slow and get murdered by grenades assuming u can hit them. W/o Waaagh! then they r essentially meatshields and cant solo any other T1 units and tend to get kited to oblivion. Trukks suck lul didnt they got nerfed to the ground a few patches ago? Wraithguards will MURDER them. I guarantee u trukks wont last more than 10 seconds vs a single squad of wraithguards supported by a few DAs. There is a reason why its called "Eldar midgame doomstack" lul
@jonoliveira12 said:
Lootas will just smash DA spam, so will Trukks with Stormboy doctrine.
No they wont, wraithguards will tank their hit all day besides u have 0 req gain so u wont be building too many of them anyways (assuming u go full power gen to rush Nobz). Irdk why Boyz is the problem here they r too slow and get murdered by grenades assuming u can hit them. W/o Waaagh! then they r essentially meatshields and cant solo any other T1 units and tend to get kited to oblivion. Trukks suck lul didnt they got nerfed to the ground a few patches ago? Wraithguards will MURDER them. I guarantee u trukks wont last more than 10 seconds vs a single squad of wraithguards supported by a few DAs. There is a reason why its called "Eldar midgame doomstack" lul
It is much easier to get Trukks than Wraithguards, and if Eldar is massing DAs, then the Upkeep will stifle his ability to field Wraithguards.
There is a game on FoxClawTV (YouTube), where you see this exact scenario play out.
And no, Trukks have not been nerfed to the ground. Also, I did not complain about Boys.
I have had success countering nobs with wraithguard. I start with shadow spectres to buy time for wraithguard but I find wraithguard/shadow spectre mix more effective than trying to go with just either of those two.
P.S. Not saying nobz may not still come out too early just saying that dealing with them using only shadow spectres or only wraithguard has not worked for me nearly as well as a mix of both.
@Bigamo said:
imo the problem of nobs coming too early isn't a real nob problem, is more about boys overperforming so much that orks can just tech like there is no tomorrow.
Boyz are fine, Orkz does not need more nerfs, in my opinion.
Ok - maybe I can build dreadnought out of doctrine chapel then so I can counter Orkz - Kappa!
He is talking of the T1 units boyz not about the race. I think relic will make the same mistake with orc, like with eldar bc of people whining the forums bc orc IS too strong. I rly think cutting waaaggghhh dmg bonus in half making nobs more expensive and wb/stormboyz and boyz nerfs and so on and on is not the way to go-THAT'S excatly what happened to eldar, half the eldar units got nerfed. The game for sure won't be more succesful if orc gets the full nerfhammer now and after eldars quitting bc of the patch orcs do now....
My ideas for an orc patch(Eldar and SM also need some changes but let's focus on the orks):
Remove abilities scaling with waaaaaaaagggghhhhhh: 90dmg stickbombz and wb Q buffed by waaghhh is crazy.
make nobs taunt researable for a power cost so fast nob rushes need the upgrade to be rly effective or guard nobz behind another waaagghh turret or add an unlock like to
the eldar shadow spectres
buff deffcopters (and vypers) - I think not even non orc players can complain about a buff to a never played orc unit
increase cost of the longer waaaghh upgrade to 50 power, so it's not a no brainer in everymatchup and also delay nobs and tech
Try to make trukks and shoota opening about same strong so we see alot more varietly in orc early game - who wants to see everygame shoota+boyz - trukk+boyz+ lootas
should be the way on some maps and situation or just to catch ur opponent offguard. (Did any of the top orcs open up trukks in the esl - I don't think so)
I think this are reasonable changes, which no orc player can deny are needed and we won't run in the danger of a crazy overnerf o faction mechanics like it happened to my pointy ears . Discuss!
@Bigamo said:
imo the problem of nobs coming too early isn't a real nob problem, is more about boys overperforming so much that orks can just tech like there is no tomorrow.
Boyz are fine, Orkz does not need more nerfs, in my opinion.
Ok - maybe I can build dreadnought out of doctrine chapel then so I can counter Orkz - Kappa!
He is talking of the T1 units boyz not about the race. I think relic will make the same mistake with orc, like with eldar bc of people whining the forums bc orc IS too strong. I rly think cutting waaaggghhh dmg bonus in half making nobs more expensive and wb/stormboyz and boyz nerfs and so on and on is not the way to go-THAT'S excatly what happened to eldar, half the eldar units got nerfed. The game for sure won't be more succesful if orc gets the full nerfhammer now and after eldars quitting bc of the patch orcs do now....
My ideas for an orc patch(Eldar and SM also need some changes but let's focus on the orks):
Remove abilities scaling with waaaaaaaagggghhhhhh: 90dmg stickbombz and wb Q buffed by waaghhh is crazy.
make nobs taunt researable for a power cost so fast nob rushes need the upgrade to be rly effective or guard nobz behind another waaagghh turret or add an unlock like to
the eldar shadow spectres
buff deffcopters (and vypers) - I think not even non orc players can complain about a buff to a never played orc unit
increase cost of the longer waaaghh upgrade to 50 power, so it's not a no brainer in everymatchup and also delay nobs and tech
Try to make trukks and shoota opening about same strong so we see alot more varietly in orc early game - who wants to see everygame shoota+boyz - trukk+boyz+ lootas
should be the way on some maps and situation or just to catch ur opponent offguard. (Did any of the top orcs open up trukks in the esl - I don't think so)
I think this are reasonable changes, which no orc player can deny are needed and we won't run in the danger of a crazy overnerf o faction mechanics like it happened to my pointy ears . Discuss!
Any tips to counter lootas as eldar?
The suppression hurts. The relective strike doctrine didnt seem to be effective against them. Still got suppressed ;(
@Bigamo said:
imo the problem of nobs coming too early isn't a real nob problem, is more about boys overperforming so much that orks can just tech like there is no tomorrow.
Boyz are fine, Orkz does not need more nerfs, in my opinion.
Orks are balanced in the TT by having very weak armour but very cheap troops. A similar thing could be attempted with DOW3 where ork boy squads have like 10 models with current hp/damage stats so that way they bleed dps faster as they lose models.
Time: 1:15:24 - My game vs Cataclaw I managed to get Nobz out by minute 6. Because I skipped stormboyz, I was able to get weirdboy out then too.
It's super easy @YbuBaKa - even some1 who has barely played Orkz (that was probably my 20th game ever as Orkz - wasn't even using half of their really good doctrines because I don't have Elites leveled at all) and made plenty of early game mistakes (like me) could use this combo to go up against a top Eldar player like Cataclaw, who has played hundreds of Eldar games.
The power spike for your army at min 6/7 is insane...
I've watched this video. This is not about Orks or their power, mythical or real. It's all about Cataclaw's mistakes. He summoned 2-pt elite, while you didn't. He lost banshee squad to boyz and LP, so he gave it for free. But the main mistake was to forget about your three power generators. Two of them was not defended, he was able to harass them. But he attacked you frontal instead, and wasted all 6 minutes. When he played against me, for, example, he ran around the map like crazy, avoided direct fights and did his best to check each my resource point and break all undefended generators. So, this time he just performed bad. It is very cheesy: to await Weirboy and to refuse of Stormboyz. In most cases this allows enemy to break your energy generators.
By the way, Cataclaw DID successfully countered your very-fast nobz. He even managed to defend his shield generator against two nobz squads at 8th minute! But he did not paid enough attention to another sheild generator and gave it for free to you. So, his defeat was not due to your fast nobz. And Orks are not OP at this moment. Fast nobz are counterable.
For the record do you think there are balance changes required?
If so where?
Would you say all three races are on an equal footing?
I would encourage the top players who are engaged in discussions on the forum to spend an evening playing each other across multiple matches and rotating through each race...
@vindicarex has done a great job of putting his claims to the test so it would be worthwhile having @YbuBaKa match up against his Orks perhaps?
@Bigamo said:
imo the problem of nobs coming too early isn't a real nob problem, is more about boys overperforming so much that orks can just tech like there is no tomorrow.
Boyz are fine, Orkz does not need more nerfs, in my opinion.
Ok - maybe I can build dreadnought out of doctrine chapel then so I can counter Orkz - Kappa!
He is talking of the T1 units boyz not about the race. I think relic will make the same mistake with orc, like with eldar bc of people whining the forums bc orc IS too strong. I rly think cutting waaaggghhh dmg bonus in half making nobs more expensive and wb/stormboyz and boyz nerfs and so on and on is not the way to go-THAT'S excatly what happened to eldar, half the eldar units got nerfed. The game for sure won't be more succesful if orc gets the full nerfhammer now and after eldars quitting bc of the patch orcs do now....
My ideas for an orc patch(Eldar and SM also need some changes but let's focus on the orks):
Remove abilities scaling with waaaaaaaagggghhhhhh: 90dmg stickbombz and wb Q buffed by waaghhh is crazy.
make nobs taunt researable for a power cost so fast nob rushes need the upgrade to be rly effective or guard nobz behind another waaagghh turret or add an unlock like to
the eldar shadow spectres
buff deffcopters (and vypers) - I think not even non orc players can complain about a buff to a never played orc unit
increase cost of the longer waaaghh upgrade to 50 power, so it's not a no brainer in everymatchup and also delay nobs and tech
Try to make trukks and shoota opening about same strong so we see alot more varietly in orc early game - who wants to see everygame shoota+boyz - trukk+boyz+ lootas
should be the way on some maps and situation or just to catch ur opponent offguard. (Did any of the top orcs open up trukks in the esl - I don't think so)
I think this are reasonable changes, which no orc player can deny are needed and we won't run in the danger of a crazy overnerf o faction mechanics like it happened to my pointy ears . Discuss!
Any tips to counter lootas as eldar?
The suppression hurts. The relective strike doctrine didnt seem to be effective against them. Still got suppressed ;(
DA grenades, macha spear, bonesinger teleport, Skorpians jumping in the backlines, jain zar
For the record do you think there are balance changes required?
If so where?
Would you say all three races are on an equal footing?
I think, balance is not perfect today, and we need a lot of changes. But balance is quite better than one month ago, and two months ago. Developers move in right direction, but they do it slow.
For Orks, I would like to see these changes:
Trukk shoota dps increase from 13 to 25 (Orks need alternative to Shoota mass, but old Trukkaz with INSANE suicide damage were OP)
Nobz should require 4 banners instead of 3, but their stats have to be improved to perform better against Gabe. I dunno how, bonus damage or hp will break the balance. They need some sort of resistance to stun, or just +1 to speed to be able to run away from him.
WAAAGH! damage bonus reduced twice, but add 25% damage reduction while WAAGH! is active. This will make WAAAGH! ability useful for defense, while lowering its assault potential. WAAAGH! speed bonus should remain the same
Even Longa WAAGH! locked at 3th banner
Salvaging from scrap should cost not 50%, but 75%: it gives too huge advantage at 4th Phase, allowing to spam Big Trakks for 160 energy!
Deffdread damage should be increased to 88, but price raised to 250 energy
Big Trakk in "Kill em from Far!" mode should deal Normal damage instead of Armor Piercing, to prevent sniping Power Core through Fog of War.
Deffkopta health should be increased to 900, damage should be increased to 40-45
Killa Kunz: 20% damage nerf, 20% hp buff. They will be less effective at one-shooting valuable targets, but will be more durable to survive Gabriel's or dreadnought's Reflection strike. "Long Range Rokkit" should deal Normal damage instead of True: no more sniping Turrets from the far.
It is not urgent, but some Orky elites need to be reworked. First of all, overlooked and useless Wazmakka. I think, his Trakktor Beam should recieve 15 sec cooldown instead of 30, and his Scrap Turrets should be transformed into uninterruptable spell. Also he needs good doctrine instead of crappy "Scrap Sight". Perhaps a doctrine, equal to "Omnissiah" of the Space Marines, will be Ok.
@vindicarex has done a great job of putting his claims to the test so it would be worthwhile having @YbuBaKa match up against his Orks perhaps?
I see no "great job", only cries about "OP nobz" and video, which proofs absolutely nothing. Of course, I can play with his Orks. But I will not play Space Marines, I don't like them. And instead of him, I haven't declared they need nerfs. We have only one obvious imba now - scout spam. Everything else is counterable (even scout spam is counterable sometimes!). Yes, I think some Space Marines units overperform. But I don't ask for nerfs to dreadnoughts and whirlwinds, for example.
Not saying the Cataclaw didn't make mistakes - but I certainly didn't play perfect either (losing my 1st boyz squad for instance).
Yes, having 4 power generators certainly made it very easy to get nobz - but it's not easy to stop orkz from claiming extra power generators if you are trying to keep your starting units together to contest the Boyz (you need to outnumber them or else you will be kiting endlessly). This is why DA/Scout spam is so effective vs Orkz because you can actually get a lot of squads out fast to contest map control and stop the placement of power generators everywhere. Going Banshees/Tacticals means you have less squads out so more % of your army is being tied up by boyz.
You never responded to my challenge of playing SM or Eldar (or even just telling us exactly how us non Orky players are supposed to exploit Ork weaknesses).
And every1 knows Scout Spam is IMBA. In my Analysis thread, I detail not only why nobz are super powerful, but other reasons why it's even viable to go for nobz so quickly and why it works (due to very efficient and cheap Ork units and tech).
You have never offered me a challenge of playing SM or Eldar. I could play Eldar, you know? And I explain in my each post how to beat fast nobz and where lies Ork's weakness.
My opinion remains the same: fast nobz is not the best tactic for Orks, my tactic is better. I can prove it by beating all best Orks (who use fast nobz) one by one.
I think explaining something in theory is far inferior to reliably demonstrating it.
@vindicarex stated nobz was a problem. You guys said - 'ok then show us.' Vindi then played some Orks and pretty effectively beat Cataclaw with them....good job!
So please do prove your points with gameplay - it is the most effective way.
@YbuBaKa - please play vindi or even another high ranking orc as Eldar (if you are morally opposed to SM). It will add clout to what your saying and enrich this balance discussion.
Just to let the truth known, I wrote this 2 days ago:
@vindicarex said:
I've never seen you lot play SM/Eldar vs Orkz (See, I can play this game too!) - Why don't you do that and tell me just how easy it is.
The only thing I didn't do was not @YbuBaKa ... but it was meant in response to the whole "you won't play Orkz vindi, you know nothing!"
To be fair, people were mocking Vindicare for his opinions on Orks by saying he doesn't even play them. So he accepted the challenge and played them with no unlocked elite doctrines (since he never played them outside of SP) and beat a top Eldar player on his first try with the Nobz rush. Maybe those who called him out should acknowledge that he might have a point about Nobz?
No need to get into much philosophy here. People like OP stuff, especially when it is their favorite race/unit/etc and defending it the best way they can. Simple as that.
@RedDevilCG said:
To be fair, people were mocking Vindicare for his opinions on Orks by saying he doesn't even play them. So he accepted the challenge and played them with no unlocked elite doctrines (since he never played them outside of SP) and beat a top Eldar player on his first try with the Nobz rush. Maybe those who called him out should acknowledge that he might have a point about Nobz?
To be fair @vindicarex had a solid game plan, delay the eldar until nobz then push where cata was dicking about that game. If there was a sense of urgency around it then it would have played out diferrently, cata also knew that it wasn't vindi's primary race too. The game snowballed in Ork's favour.
Nobz should require 4 banners instead of 3, but their stats have to be improved to perform better against Gabe. I dunno how, bonus damage or hp will break the balance.
Dear @YbuBaKa, if they were 4 Banners won't we just get the deff dread instead?, perhaps keep them where they are, make them much cheaper and make them normal armored instead? at least they are more counterable, if not they would be like wraithblades, coming in too late to be impactful.. just my 2c
I like the idea of making WAAAGH towers lose tech when destroyed. So if Ork player wants to dump all his early resources in WAAAGH Towers, he will have to place them more safely or risk losing his tech if using them aggressive. It would actually make killing WAAAGH Towers in early game worthwhile.
@frumpylumps said:
It would greatly help the case of those complaining about Orks if they could surpass and consistently beat those at the top of the ladder with Ork, or win a tournament with Ork themselves. If they can't consistently beat these top ork players with orks themselves, and beat them with orks, we have to assume this is a case of being outskilled.
This RTS game doesn't take a great deal of know how to play competitively and the skillsets required are relatively similar between factions. If these are really metagame players who are more skilled than their opponents and losing, and not just complaints of something they aren't adapting to, we have to ask why should they not be able to beat these players with Ork themselves and win the tourny money of Ork is so OP?
It would greatly help the case of those complaining about SM and Eldar players and their suggestions if they could surpass and consistently beat those at the top of the ladder with Sm or Eldar, or win a tournament with Sm or Eldar themselves. If they can't consistently beat these top Sm or Eldar players with SM or Eldar themselves, and beat them with SM or Eldar, we have to assume this is a case of being outskilled or being carried by OP race.
This RTS game doesn't take a great deal of know how to play competitively (this simply isn't true) and the skillsets required are relatively similar between factions. If these are really metagame players who are more skilled than their opponents and losing, and not just complaints of something they aren't adapting to, we have to ask why should they not be able to beat these players with SM or Eldar themselves and win the tourny money if Ork is so OP?
It would greatly help the case of those complaining about Orks if they could surpass and consistently beat those at the top of the ladder with Ork, or win a tournament with Ork themselves. If they can't consistently beat these top ork players with orks themselves, and beat them with orks, we have to assume this is a case of being outskilled.
This RTS game doesn't take a great deal of know how to play competitively and the skillsets required are relatively similar between factions. If these are really metagame players who are more skilled than their opponents and losing, and not just complaints of something they aren't adapting to, we have to ask the question: Why should they not be able to beat these players with Ork themselves on the ladder and win the tourny money if Ork is so OP?
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Comments
DmonBlu
Lul doesnt Wraithguard counter Nobz? Besides Ork cant deal with DA spam since they r wayyy too slow and somewhat power heavy. Boy if u save up those power for Nobz u will have some serious problems when DAs rush into your house and u cant even catch them. If they see a Waaagh! tower out of postion they will spam like10 grenades and wipe out ur whole army. Even if u managed to get Nobz u will still get kited to death due to SS and if u decide to babysit them they will go for gen as Ork has limited ways to deal with the flying assholes. Nobz is only a problem for SM due to their limited mobility and relies heavily on T1 units which Nobz tend to roll over them. Eldar line infantry is T2 and has a huge amount of mobility and started out as anti-armor so Nobz is essentialy useless assuming ur opponent is half way decent and knows how how to dodge the Q from Nobz... Either cases Nobz rush is just a Ork vs SM matchup problem, Eldar really doesnt have any problems with them .In fact, they love to have a turtling opponent so they can tech up and mass wraith units easier
jonoliveira12
Lootas will just smash DA spam, so will Trukks with Stormboy doctrine.
jonoliveira12
Boyz are fine, Orkz does not need more nerfs, in my opinion.
vindicarex
Ok - maybe I can build dreadnought out of doctrine chapel then so I can counter Orkz - Kappa!
jonoliveira12
I just don't want everything to get super nerfed. Heck, Deathstorms are OP as all hell, yet I do not complain!
Those things can kill buildings.
DmonBlu
No they wont, wraithguards will tank their hit all day besides u have 0 req gain so u wont be building too many of them anyways (assuming u go full power gen to rush Nobz). Irdk why Boyz is the problem here they r too slow and get murdered by grenades assuming u can hit them. W/o Waaagh! then they r essentially meatshields and cant solo any other T1 units and tend to get kited to oblivion. Trukks suck lul didnt they got nerfed to the ground a few patches ago? Wraithguards will MURDER them. I guarantee u trukks wont last more than 10 seconds vs a single squad of wraithguards supported by a few DAs. There is a reason why its called "Eldar midgame doomstack" lul
jonoliveira12
It is much easier to get Trukks than Wraithguards, and if Eldar is massing DAs, then the Upkeep will stifle his ability to field Wraithguards.
There is a game on FoxClawTV (YouTube), where you see this exact scenario play out.
And no, Trukks have not been nerfed to the ground. Also, I did not complain about Boys.
Wardemon
I have had success countering nobs with wraithguard. I start with shadow spectres to buy time for wraithguard but I find wraithguard/shadow spectre mix more effective than trying to go with just either of those two.
P.S. Not saying nobz may not still come out too early just saying that dealing with them using only shadow spectres or only wraithguard has not worked for me nearly as well as a mix of both.
Murador
He is talking of the T1 units boyz not about the race. I think relic will make the same mistake with orc, like with eldar bc of people whining the forums bc orc IS too strong. I rly think cutting waaaggghhh dmg bonus in half making nobs more expensive and wb/stormboyz and boyz nerfs and so on and on is not the way to go-THAT'S excatly what happened to eldar, half the eldar units got nerfed. The game for sure won't be more succesful if orc gets the full nerfhammer now and after eldars quitting bc of the patch orcs do now....
My ideas for an orc patch(Eldar and SM also need some changes but let's focus on the orks):
make nobs taunt researable for a power cost so fast nob rushes need the upgrade to be rly effective or guard nobz behind another waaagghh turret or add an unlock like to
the eldar shadow spectres
buff deffcopters (and vypers) - I think not even non orc players can complain about a buff to a never played orc unit
should be the way on some maps and situation or just to catch ur opponent offguard. (Did any of the top orcs open up trukks in the esl - I don't think so)
I think this are reasonable changes, which no orc player can deny are needed and we won't run in the danger of a crazy overnerf o faction mechanics like it happened to my pointy ears
. Discuss!
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
Any tips to counter lootas as eldar?
The suppression hurts. The relective strike doctrine didnt seem to be effective against them. Still got suppressed ;(
MrBenis
Orks are balanced in the TT by having very weak armour but very cheap troops. A similar thing could be attempted with DOW3 where ork boy squads have like 10 models with current hp/damage stats so that way they bleed dps faster as they lose models.
YbuBaKa
I've watched this video. This is not about Orks or their power, mythical or real. It's all about Cataclaw's mistakes. He summoned 2-pt elite, while you didn't. He lost banshee squad to boyz and LP, so he gave it for free. But the main mistake was to forget about your three power generators. Two of them was not defended, he was able to harass them. But he attacked you frontal instead, and wasted all 6 minutes. When he played against me, for, example, he ran around the map like crazy, avoided direct fights and did his best to check each my resource point and break all undefended generators. So, this time he just performed bad. It is very cheesy: to await Weirboy and to refuse of Stormboyz. In most cases this allows enemy to break your energy generators.
By the way, Cataclaw DID successfully countered your very-fast nobz. He even managed to defend his shield generator against two nobz squads at 8th minute! But he did not paid enough attention to another sheild generator and gave it for free to you. So, his defeat was not due to your fast nobz. And Orks are not OP at this moment. Fast nobz are counterable.
MaxwellsDaemon
@YbuBaKa
Counterable doesn't mean they are balanced?
For the record do you think there are balance changes required?
If so where?
Would you say all three races are on an equal footing?
I would encourage the top players who are engaged in discussions on the forum to spend an evening playing each other across multiple matches and rotating through each race...
@vindicarex has done a great job of putting his claims to the test so it would be worthwhile having @YbuBaKa match up against his Orks perhaps?
Murador
DA grenades, macha spear, bonesinger teleport, Skorpians jumping in the backlines, jain zar
YbuBaKa
I think, balance is not perfect today, and we need a lot of changes. But balance is quite better than one month ago, and two months ago. Developers move in right direction, but they do it slow.
For Orks, I would like to see these changes:
It is not urgent, but some Orky elites need to be reworked. First of all, overlooked and useless Wazmakka. I think, his Trakktor Beam should recieve 15 sec cooldown instead of 30, and his Scrap Turrets should be transformed into uninterruptable spell. Also he needs good doctrine instead of crappy "Scrap Sight". Perhaps a doctrine, equal to "Omnissiah" of the Space Marines, will be Ok.
I see no "great job", only cries about "OP nobz" and video, which proofs absolutely nothing. Of course, I can play with his Orks. But I will not play Space Marines, I don't like them. And instead of him, I haven't declared they need nerfs. We have only one obvious imba now - scout spam. Everything else is counterable (even scout spam is counterable sometimes!). Yes, I think some Space Marines units overperform. But I don't ask for nerfs to dreadnoughts and whirlwinds, for example.
vindicarex
Not saying the Cataclaw didn't make mistakes - but I certainly didn't play perfect either (losing my 1st boyz squad for instance).
Yes, having 4 power generators certainly made it very easy to get nobz - but it's not easy to stop orkz from claiming extra power generators if you are trying to keep your starting units together to contest the Boyz (you need to outnumber them or else you will be kiting endlessly). This is why DA/Scout spam is so effective vs Orkz because you can actually get a lot of squads out fast to contest map control and stop the placement of power generators everywhere. Going Banshees/Tacticals means you have less squads out so more % of your army is being tied up by boyz.
You never responded to my challenge of playing SM or Eldar (or even just telling us exactly how us non Orky players are supposed to exploit Ork weaknesses).
And every1 knows Scout Spam is IMBA. In my Analysis thread, I detail not only why nobz are super powerful, but other reasons why it's even viable to go for nobz so quickly and why it works (due to very efficient and cheap Ork units and tech).
YbuBaKa
You have never offered me a challenge of playing SM or Eldar. I could play Eldar, you know?
And I explain in my each post how to beat fast nobz and where lies Ork's weakness.
My opinion remains the same: fast nobz is not the best tactic for Orks, my tactic is better. I can prove it by beating all best Orks (who use fast nobz) one by one.
MaxwellsDaemon
@YbuBaKa @vindicarex
I think some good natured 1v1's are in order!
@YbuBaKa
I think explaining something in theory is far inferior to reliably demonstrating it.
@vindicarex stated nobz was a problem. You guys said - 'ok then show us.' Vindi then played some Orks and pretty effectively beat Cataclaw with them....good job!
So please do prove your points with gameplay - it is the most effective way.
@YbuBaKa - please play vindi or even another high ranking orc as Eldar (if you are morally opposed to SM). It will add clout to what your saying and enrich this balance discussion.
vindicarex
Just to let the truth known, I wrote this 2 days ago:
The only thing I didn't do was not @YbuBaKa ... but it was meant in response to the whole "you won't play Orkz vindi, you know nothing!"
RedDevilCG
To be fair, people were mocking Vindicare for his opinions on Orks by saying he doesn't even play them. So he accepted the challenge and played them with no unlocked elite doctrines (since he never played them outside of SP) and beat a top Eldar player on his first try with the Nobz rush. Maybe those who called him out should acknowledge that he might have a point about Nobz?
Stoner
No need to get into much philosophy here. People like OP stuff, especially when it is their favorite race/unit/etc and defending it the best way they can. Simple as that.
buggy
Sure @Stoner Watch how people defend ASM spam and Eldar Webway teleports pre-patch and you'll get an idea.
buggy
To be fair @vindicarex had a solid game plan, delay the eldar until nobz then push where cata was dicking about that game. If there was a sense of urgency around it then it would have played out diferrently, cata also knew that it wasn't vindi's primary race too. The game snowballed in Ork's favour.
buggy
Dear @YbuBaKa, if they were 4 Banners won't we just get the deff dread instead?, perhaps keep them where they are, make them much cheaper and make them normal armored instead? at least they are more counterable, if not they would be like wraithblades, coming in too late to be impactful.. just my 2c
vindicarex
I like the idea of making WAAAGH towers lose tech when destroyed. So if Ork player wants to dump all his early resources in WAAAGH Towers, he will have to place them more safely or risk losing his tech if using them aggressive. It would actually make killing WAAAGH Towers in early game worthwhile.
Korica
They use the vehicle upgrades, not the infantry ones.
DaDokisinX
It would greatly help the case of those complaining about SM and Eldar players and their suggestions if they could surpass and consistently beat those at the top of the ladder with Sm or Eldar, or win a tournament with Sm or Eldar themselves. If they can't consistently beat these top Sm or Eldar players with SM or Eldar themselves, and beat them with SM or Eldar, we have to assume this is a case of being outskilled or being carried by OP race.
This RTS game doesn't take a great deal of know how to play competitively (this simply isn't true) and the skillsets required are relatively similar between factions. If these are really metagame players who are more skilled than their opponents and losing, and not just complaints of something they aren't adapting to, we have to ask why should they not be able to beat these players with SM or Eldar themselves and win the tourny money if Ork is so OP?
Strange how this argument works doesn't it?
frumpylumps
It would greatly help the case of those complaining about Orks if they could surpass and consistently beat those at the top of the ladder with Ork, or win a tournament with Ork themselves. If they can't consistently beat these top ork players with orks themselves, and beat them with orks, we have to assume this is a case of being outskilled.
This RTS game doesn't take a great deal of know how to play competitively and the skillsets required are relatively similar between factions. If these are really metagame players who are more skilled than their opponents and losing, and not just complaints of something they aren't adapting to, we have to ask the question: Why should they not be able to beat these players with Ork themselves on the ladder and win the tourny money if Ork is so OP?
Gigs
loooool nobz are t2 but you have to elite for terminators.