The problem I've seen with lascannon devs vs infantry is how they get full damage over many enemies and extremely long range. So they can just swap targets burning them down even as grossly less efficient output because they never lose damage over switching target.
3v3 the straight up counters are difficult because you often need to coordinate with allies to match army value for army value.
You're right - as Eldar we have no great initiation tools such as ASM with our line units.
Depending on the stage of the game I will opt for combinations of rangers, dark reapers and fire prisms and aim to target my elites at the blob.
I suspect you have either Macha, Jain or kyre (more likely the first 2 if you have spiders). Use the psychic blast on Macha followed up by a quick stasis to nuke,disrupt and either take out a sizeable portion of the blob while you overwhelm those not caught in stasis....or if you catch all of them use it to set up your units.
Naturally you have to factor in the opponents allies and disruption afforded by drop pods and banner etc - but even a few seconds of stasis can be enough in a 1v1 scenario.
3v3 the straight up counters are difficult because you often need to coordinate with allies to match army value for army value.
You're right - as Eldar we have no great initiation tools such as ASM with our line units.
Depending on the stage of the game I will opt for combinations of rangers, dark reapers and fire prisms and aim to target my elites at the blob.
I suspect you have either Macha, Jain or kyre (more likely the first 2 if you have spiders). Use the psychic blast on Macha followed up by a quick stasis to nuke,disrupt and either take out a sizeable portion of the blob while you overwhelm those not caught in stasis....or if you catch all of them use it to set up your units.
Naturally you have to factor in the opponents allies and disruption afforded by drop pods and banner etc - but even a few seconds of stasis can be enough in a 1v1 scenario.
What you say is true. But l wish eldar had some sort of shield upgrade that scales with the tiers. The Sm have their drop pods, the ork their waaagh bonus. The eldar just have a 1 time flat rate upgrade. If not the shield upgrade then a webway upgrade so instead of just 1 portal we can have multiple portals ( ie each production structure can create 1 link). what do you think?
@MrBenis said:
The problem I've seen with lascannon devs vs infantry is how they get full damage over many enemies and extremely long range. So they can just swap targets burning them down even as grossly less efficient output because they never lose damage over switching target.
what's their dps once they are in max damage mode btw ? someone knows ?
Yeah I agree Eldar have the weakest scaling faction mechanics in the game including their ultimate.
I think there are many ways they could be buffed.
Personally I think I'd like to see, as you say, more webway links becoming available and probably a t1 buff to shield regen rate. The amount of down time you have from waiting around for them to recharge is too much.
It also makes it easy to snowball pushes against Eldar. Orks and SM can reinforce with full health models - if Eldar reinforce on a no shielded squad they essentially do so with 33% of their health. This means it simply isn't feasible to hold ground the same way as Orks or SM can with on the field reinforcement.
@MrBenis said:
The problem I've seen with lascannon devs vs infantry is how they get full damage over many enemies and extremely long range. So they can just swap targets burning them down even as grossly less efficient output because they never lose damage over switching target.
what's their dps once they are in max damage mode btw ? someone knows ?
I think its 69dps at full power, they get like 35% damage efficiecny when shooting normal armour however thats still about 25 dps which isn't that bad for a squad that can outrange and of the tangential targets it might be shooting.
Didn't dow1 make it so that units in melee took much less ranged damage? Maybe DOW3 should reintroduce some of these soft-counter mechanics so that powerful melee units can't just pull and then tank while whole armies get nuked like nobs or boyz or whatever.
Yeah I agree Eldar have the weakest scaling faction mechanics in the game including their ultimate.
I think there are many ways they could be buffed.
Personally I think I'd like to see, as you say, more webway links becoming available and probably a t1 buff to shield regen rate. The amount of down time you have from waiting around for them to recharge is too much.
It also makes it easy to snowball pushes against Eldar. Orks and SM can reinforce with full health models - if Eldar reinforce on a no shielded squad they essentially do so with 33% of their health. This means it simply isn't feasible to hold ground the same way as Orks or SM can with on the field reinforcement.
In comparison the spctres need like 5-6 squads on full charge to kill 1 tac squad without losses
So yeah 25 dps normal armour is about the same damage as sniper scouts put out and 5 damage more than rangers (because scouts do more damage while being massively cheaper....because ++heresy redacted++ rangers)
@MaxwellsDaemon said:
So yeah 25 dps normal armour is about the same damage as sniper scouts put out and 5 damage more than rangers (because scouts do more damage while being massively cheaper....because ++heresy redacted++ rangers)
That's if my numbers are right.
Give us a proper heavy cover counter as eldar without having to rely on elites. The orks have numbers, the sm have asm and tacs can use flamers, how the heck to do you counter heavy cover without banshees? Imagine having lootas in the cover that shred the banshees even before they get to it. Do we use rangers to damage the cover? Is there no other way? Since not even grenades penetrate the cover..
@MaxwellsDaemon said:
So yeah 25 dps normal armour is about the same damage as sniper scouts put out and 5 damage more than rangers (because scouts do more damage while being massively cheaper....because ++heresy redacted++ rangers)
That's if my numbers are right.
Scouts are balanced on the basis that rangers can cloak. In longer games it's not impossible to infiltrate a ranger squad right in to an enemy base and drop a WWP thus bypassing all forward defenses. You can do it on solarian gate with the stealth patches behind mid tower.
Kind of agree here. Pushing shield gens as Eldar is a bit crappy - not a major concern though imo.
As Eldar you have the tools to punish a heavy shield gen defense simply by wrecking their economy.
With a few well placed Warrior portals with webway links you can simultaneously keep an army hemmed in to defending while at the same time taking their resource nodes.
This is one thing Eldar can do better than any other race...even if actually pushing the gen is a pain in the as s.
With respect scouts are currently balanced by costing a pittance in power compared to rangers.
Compare ASM to banshees perhaps.
They have better unit stats and more utility for a meagre 65/5 more.
To get the first ranger out it's 45 power to 10! (and ofc a 10 power difference from then on)
On top of that - I don't even care for cloaking on a long range unit anyway....it's in many ways better to have it on a separate spotter unit (with a stun).
Cloaking is great for getting in close range and speed is already enough to get the utility out of a sniper rifle...in my opinion at least.
Anyway this is not a ranger vs sniper thread ....i just share the opinion of many that rangers are overpriced and under powered.
@MaxwellsDaemon said:
So yeah 25 dps normal armour is about the same damage as sniper scouts put out and 5 damage more than rangers (because scouts do more damage while being massively cheaper....because ++heresy redacted++ rangers)
That's if my numbers are right.
AV damage to normal armor is 40%, so they deal 27DPS pre upgrades.
For comparison, Rangers have 18 DPS and Scout Snipers 23.
Ronhan has 21 DPS to give some perspective.
And that's EXACTLY the same DPS as Wraithguards, so in theory, you can just have meatshields in front of LC devs and blob of anti all LC devs annihilating everything in sight.
@Katitof
I think the Wraithguard comparison is fine - given that they are both AV and Wraith guard have other advantages....its just their comparable damage on infantry vs snipers which are a dedicated AI unit.
In damage- lascannons essentially out perform rangers and are on par with scout snipers which, other than the fact that front loaded burst damage is usually better, is ridiculous!
In light of that I definitely think lascannon infantry damage is overperforming.
It doesn't help either that we have +damage to skimmer bonuses, all eldar vehicles are skimmers and Eldar vehicles are expensive with low hp and a poor ratio of shield to hp.
So in other words what I'm saying is when Relic come out with statements like "XYZ unit is getting built at rates that are significantly below what they should be for a primary counter (shadowspectres)" it's basically the same as them admitting they aren't seeing all the angles of how units are interacting with each other.
I already went over this in my eldar army review thread. Eldar have a huge problem with really unimportant bonuses being given way too much focus and then nerfing the unit to compensate, rubbing salt in the wound by offering doctrines that you NEED just to make basic units even work. And people keep saying there are so few eldar players gee I wonder why maybe because their ill conceived balancing is a central issue.
Yeah I do feel a few mechanics were poorly implemented across factions.
I would be happy if a halfway point was introduced - Las cannons do increased damage vs the health and not the shield of skimmers (ditto for spectres). This would be in addition to fixing the poor scaling of Eldar vehicle health upgrades.
Another poor mechanic I mentioned elsewhere is Jain Zar wraithblade fury doctrine. since 66% of the health is a shield it doesn't actually kick into effect until the unit is at 22% heath...which is pretty garbage!
Yeah I do feel a few mechanics were poorly implemented across factions.
I would be happy if a halfway point was introduced - Las cannons do increased damage vs the health and not the shield of skimmers (ditto for spectres). This would be in addition to fixing the poor scaling of Eldar vehicle health upgrades.
Another poor mechanic I mentioned elsewhere is Jain Zar wraithblade fury doctrine. since 66% of the health is a shield it doesn't actually kick into effect until the unit is at 22% heath...which is pretty garbage!
Yeah, some of the doctrines are HORRIBLY implemented.
Especially the ones which depend on low health as Eldar.
That's why we're having changes and buffs to doctrines with following patch.
Also, I don't think Specters are getting bonus damage, while they are skimmers, they don't seem to die faster to other infantry AT.
Yeah I mean spectres get bonus damage vs skimmers.
regarding WB @Guziol just recommended a very smart way to exploit the doctrine (not sure it's intended to be used this way) which is to not reinforce the squad just regen the shield. That way you get the stacking bonus and only 22% of the health missing (the amount missing is proportionally even less with shield upgrades).
Yeah I mean spectres get bonus damage vs skimmers.
No no no, I meant bonus damage when others shoot at them.
They themselves can stand up well.
Ironically, they are completely incapable to fight against falcon because they don't have alpha strike of tankbustas, they don't have as good DPS as las cannons and they lack range of both, meaning they will always be in range of falcon.
Specters still weakest and worst AT squad in game just because of ++heresy redacted++ skimming gimmick.
I'm inclined to agree they are the worst outright AV - but they are good enough at other tasks to compensate now I think.
I do think Lascannon needs to be toned down and cheesy squig plays need to be reassessed (just auto target in my opinion - squigs have decent health and you can still chick 3or 4 in at a time)
Yeah I mean spectres get bonus damage vs skimmers.
regarding WB @Guziol just recommended a very smart way to exploit the doctrine (not sure it's intended to be used this way) which is to not reinforce the squad just regen the shield. That way you get the stacking bonus and only 22% of the health missing (the amount missing is proportionally even less with shield upgrades).
Very clever!
Well that depends on how much of a damage bonus they get hmm?
I'm inclined to agree they are the worst outright AV - but they are good enough at other tasks to compensate now I think.
I do think Lascannon needs to be toned down and cheesy squig plays need to be reassessed (just auto target in my opinion - squigs have decent health and you can still chick 3or 4 in at a time)
Sure they're solid against basically all other targets.
Its just this one unit they can't tackle(and land speeder with loner and shield doctrines).
Lascannons on the other hand yea, are tad too effective, especially against skimmers, which basically have only half hp against them and that hp depletes fast.
Plus, Wraithguard DPS against infantry.
So if you do the maths you get 25% off for reinforcing instead of purchasing a new squad.
HOWEVER you already have a squad working at 66% efficiciency in terms of damage and 77% efficiency in health (without factoring upgrades) AND being less prone to aoe AND being faster....without purchasing anything.
Save a little more power and just buy a new squad....on paper it sounds ingenious.
That t1 relocate doctrine pretty much shielded the eldar from all these deficiencies, also the banshee quick strike. Now that these 2 are gone and the range on the Da has been reduced, we can actually catch a glimpse of all things incoherent with the race as whole.
@CadisEtramaDiRaizel said:
That t1 relocate doctrine pretty much shielded the eldar from all these deficiencies, also the banshee quick strike. Now that these 2 are gone and the range on the Da has been reduced, we can actually catch a glimpse of all things incoherent with the race as whole.
Good, now its easy to see where the faction actually lacks and buff it appropriately.
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Comments
MrBenis
The problem I've seen with lascannon devs vs infantry is how they get full damage over many enemies and extremely long range. So they can just swap targets burning them down even as grossly less efficient output because they never lose damage over switching target.
MaxwellsDaemon
@disetramadirairzel
3v3 the straight up counters are difficult because you often need to coordinate with allies to match army value for army value.
You're right - as Eldar we have no great initiation tools such as ASM with our line units.
Depending on the stage of the game I will opt for combinations of rangers, dark reapers and fire prisms and aim to target my elites at the blob.
I suspect you have either Macha, Jain or kyre (more likely the first 2 if you have spiders). Use the psychic blast on Macha followed up by a quick stasis to nuke,disrupt and either take out a sizeable portion of the blob while you overwhelm those not caught in stasis....or if you catch all of them use it to set up your units.
Naturally you have to factor in the opponents allies and disruption afforded by drop pods and banner etc - but even a few seconds of stasis can be enough in a 1v1 scenario.
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
What you say is true. But l wish eldar had some sort of shield upgrade that scales with the tiers. The Sm have their drop pods, the ork their waaagh bonus. The eldar just have a 1 time flat rate upgrade. If not the shield upgrade then a webway upgrade so instead of just 1 portal we can have multiple portals ( ie each production structure can create 1 link). what do you think?
GuruSkippy
what's their dps once they are in max damage mode btw ? someone knows ?
MaxwellsDaemon
@disetramadirairzel
Yeah I agree Eldar have the weakest scaling faction mechanics in the game including their ultimate.
I think there are many ways they could be buffed.
Personally I think I'd like to see, as you say, more webway links becoming available and probably a t1 buff to shield regen rate. The amount of down time you have from waiting around for them to recharge is too much.
It also makes it easy to snowball pushes against Eldar. Orks and SM can reinforce with full health models - if Eldar reinforce on a no shielded squad they essentially do so with 33% of their health. This means it simply isn't feasible to hold ground the same way as Orks or SM can with on the field reinforcement.
MrBenis
I think its 69dps at full power, they get like 35% damage efficiecny when shooting normal armour however thats still about 25 dps which isn't that bad for a squad that can outrange and of the tangential targets it might be shooting.
Didn't dow1 make it so that units in melee took much less ranged damage? Maybe DOW3 should reintroduce some of these soft-counter mechanics so that powerful melee units can't just pull and then tank while whole armies get nuked like nobs or boyz or whatever.
GuruSkippy
69 ? holy crap
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
In comparison the spctres need like 5-6 squads on full charge to kill 1 tac squad without losses
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
The race thats meant to have the most fire power of the 3 dont lol. But primitive humans do.
MaxwellsDaemon
Yeah I think this is a problem - the switching targets issue with the high rate of fire is the problem.
Honestly, dow2 design was much smarter imo.
...Hmm - thinking about it do Lascannon devastators have a higher DPS against normal armour than rangers or scout snipers o.O!?
MaxwellsDaemon
So yeah 25 dps normal armour is about the same damage as sniper scouts put out and 5 damage more than rangers (because scouts do more damage while being massively cheaper....because ++heresy redacted++ rangers)
That's if my numbers are right.
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
Give us a proper heavy cover counter as eldar without having to rely on elites. The orks have numbers, the sm have asm and tacs can use flamers, how the heck to do you counter heavy cover without banshees? Imagine having lootas in the cover that shred the banshees even before they get to it. Do we use rangers to damage the cover? Is there no other way? Since not even grenades penetrate the cover..
MrBenis
Scouts are balanced on the basis that rangers can cloak. In longer games it's not impossible to infiltrate a ranger squad right in to an enemy base and drop a WWP thus bypassing all forward defenses. You can do it on solarian gate with the stealth patches behind mid tower.
MaxwellsDaemon
@disetramadirairzel
Kind of agree here. Pushing shield gens as Eldar is a bit crappy - not a major concern though imo.
As Eldar you have the tools to punish a heavy shield gen defense simply by wrecking their economy.
With a few well placed Warrior portals with webway links you can simultaneously keep an army hemmed in to defending while at the same time taking their resource nodes.
This is one thing Eldar can do better than any other race...even if actually pushing the gen is a pain in the as s.
MaxwellsDaemon
@MrBenis
With respect scouts are currently balanced by costing a pittance in power compared to rangers.
Compare ASM to banshees perhaps.
They have better unit stats and more utility for a meagre 65/5 more.
To get the first ranger out it's 45 power to 10! (and ofc a 10 power difference from then on)
On top of that - I don't even care for cloaking on a long range unit anyway....it's in many ways better to have it on a separate spotter unit (with a stun).
Cloaking is great for getting in close range and speed is already enough to get the utility out of a sniper rifle...in my opinion at least.
Anyway this is not a ranger vs sniper thread
....i just share the opinion of many that rangers are overpriced and under powered.
Katitof
And that's exactly Wraith Guard dps.
AV damage to normal armor is 40%, so they deal 27DPS pre upgrades.
For comparison, Rangers have 18 DPS and Scout Snipers 23.
Ronhan has 21 DPS to give some perspective.
And that's EXACTLY the same DPS as Wraithguards, so in theory, you can just have meatshields in front of LC devs and blob of anti all LC devs annihilating everything in sight.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Katitof
I think the Wraithguard comparison is fine - given that they are both AV and Wraith guard have other advantages....its just their comparable damage on infantry vs snipers which are a dedicated AI unit.
In damage- lascannons essentially out perform rangers and are on par with scout snipers which, other than the fact that front loaded burst damage is usually better, is ridiculous!
In light of that I definitely think lascannon infantry damage is overperforming.
MrBenis
It doesn't help either that we have +damage to skimmer bonuses, all eldar vehicles are skimmers and Eldar vehicles are expensive with low hp and a poor ratio of shield to hp.
So in other words what I'm saying is when Relic come out with statements like "XYZ unit is getting built at rates that are significantly below what they should be for a primary counter (shadowspectres)" it's basically the same as them admitting they aren't seeing all the angles of how units are interacting with each other.
I already went over this in my eldar army review thread. Eldar have a huge problem with really unimportant bonuses being given way too much focus and then nerfing the unit to compensate, rubbing salt in the wound by offering doctrines that you NEED just to make basic units even work. And people keep saying there are so few eldar players gee I wonder why maybe because their ill conceived balancing is a central issue.
MaxwellsDaemon
@MrBenis
Yeah I do feel a few mechanics were poorly implemented across factions.
I would be happy if a halfway point was introduced - Las cannons do increased damage vs the health and not the shield of skimmers (ditto for spectres). This would be in addition to fixing the poor scaling of Eldar vehicle health upgrades.
Another poor mechanic I mentioned elsewhere is Jain Zar wraithblade fury doctrine. since 66% of the health is a shield it doesn't actually kick into effect until the unit is at 22% heath...which is pretty garbage!
Katitof
Yeah, some of the doctrines are HORRIBLY implemented.
Especially the ones which depend on low health as Eldar.
That's why we're having changes and buffs to doctrines with following patch.
Also, I don't think Specters are getting bonus damage, while they are skimmers, they don't seem to die faster to other infantry AT.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Katitof
Yeah I mean spectres get bonus damage vs skimmers.
regarding WB @Guziol just recommended a very smart way to exploit the doctrine (not sure it's intended to be used this way) which is to not reinforce the squad just regen the shield. That way you get the stacking bonus and only 22% of the health missing (the amount missing is proportionally even less with shield upgrades).
Very clever!
Katitof
No no no, I meant bonus damage when others shoot at them.
They themselves can stand up well.
Ironically, they are completely incapable to fight against falcon because they don't have alpha strike of tankbustas, they don't have as good DPS as las cannons and they lack range of both, meaning they will always be in range of falcon.
Specters still weakest and worst AT squad in game just because of ++heresy redacted++ skimming gimmick.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Katitof
I'm inclined to agree they are the worst outright AV - but they are good enough at other tasks to compensate now I think.
I do think Lascannon needs to be toned down and cheesy squig plays need to be reassessed (just auto target in my opinion - squigs have decent health and you can still chick 3or 4 in at a time)
MrBenis
Well that depends on how much of a damage bonus they get hmm?
MaxwellsDaemon
@MrBenis
I think it's 200% plus speed
Katitof
Sure they're solid against basically all other targets.
Its just this one unit they can't tackle(and land speeder with loner and shield doctrines).
Lascannons on the other hand yea, are tad too effective, especially against skimmers, which basically have only half hp against them and that hp depletes fast.
Plus, Wraithguard DPS against infantry.
MaxwellsDaemon
So if you do the maths you get 25% off for reinforcing instead of purchasing a new squad.
HOWEVER you already have a squad working at 66% efficiciency in terms of damage and 77% efficiency in health (without factoring upgrades) AND being less prone to aoe AND being faster....without purchasing anything.
Save a little more power and just buy a new squad....on paper it sounds ingenious.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Katitof
Well yeah WG dps against infantry is non existent without the doctrine....which is kind of meh anyway once infantry upgrades kick in.
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
That t1 relocate doctrine pretty much shielded the eldar from all these deficiencies, also the banshee quick strike. Now that these 2 are gone and the range on the Da has been reduced, we can actually catch a glimpse of all things incoherent with the race as whole.
Katitof
Good, now its easy to see where the faction actually lacks and buff it appropriately.