@Stoner said:
As being said many times, AP deals too much damage to normal armor right now, Tankbusters, Wraithguards and Lascannons, all melt infantry real fast in numbers, so issue isn't with particular unit.
Looks like you haven't played as sm. Lasdevs are not antiinfantry.
They are the most vulnerable antivehicle unit in the game.
Actually, thanks to long range, low model count and same hp as any other AT team, they are LEAST vulnerable as AoE doesn't affect them as much as others.
They are vulnerable only if you put them at front line.
I would agree on you proposal if lasdevs didn't have setup time at all, like shadow spectres, and speed like tankbustas. Remember that this unit is very expensive. So the cost also should be the same, according to your logic.
Making all units similar will make no difference among factions and interest to play. Deal with it(c).
Set up time is short and comparable to the spectres charge up time.
The range of las devs makes them more dependable than spectres....they cost 450 but spectres cost 435/15.
If you go down to the bureau de change you'll find the exchange rate of power to rec makes spectres considerably more expensive.
Las devs do NOT have set up time, they never had, they start shooting instantly the very moment they stop.
In comparison shadow specters actually DO have a set up time, because each time they acquire a target, they need to wind up for 2 seconds before they start shooting.
Las devs also outrange every other non ordnance unit except for killakan and have same range AND dps as wraithguard.
Shadow specters can't shoot at non melee unit without being in range of it and tank bustas are actually susceptible to AOE because of large model count.
Nope, not even wind up time, they stop, they shoot.
You can't say that LC has the same DPS as Wraithguard though - obviously we have to account for the wind up time.
Switching targets does make it very easy though - and I am very tired of seeing unthinking A-move Lascannon blobs trading so efficiently.
They actually do have same dps fully charged, WGs seem better, because they apply all their damage in a single burst with long pause, while LCs constantly apply damage, however the DPS is exactly the same for both.
Yeah they need to be toned down - I don't think there are many SM players that honestly think otherwise.
Either that or spectres need to be brought on par.
Personally I hate all of this build up charge cr*p....it's not nearly as interesting or tense as frontloaded, slow refire single shots.....that said it is easier to balance and more 'competitve'
@Diogen84 said:
Las devs are fine. They do not need a nerf. All other factuons have powerfull antivehicle. Do you rememver what a trash they were before the first patch?
Killakans have true dmg and long shot. Eldars have reapers and now flying spectres, who can hit during moving(!). But las devs are:
1. The slowest unit
2. Have time of setting up and removing weapon before retreat.
3. Extremely vulnerable against all eldar and orc troops.
4. Melee forces eat them on breakfast(invisible banshee strike or trukk catapult).
Taking everything into account you propose to make them trash again.
Makes no sense that they are good against normal armour when spectres need 5-6 squads for tac marines.
Yeah they need to be toned down - I don't think there are many SM players that honestly think otherwise.
Either that or spectres need to be brought on par.
Personally I hate all of this build up charge cr*p....it's not nearly as interesting or tense as frontloaded, slow refire single shots.....that said it is easier to balance and more 'competitve'
The spectres seem really weak now. Same with their animation. I ve even reported that stuff as a bug with evidence. Still waiting for reply.
@Stoner said:
As being said many times, AP deals too much damage to normal armor right now, Tankbusters, Wraithguards and Lascannons, all melt infantry real fast in numbers, so issue isn't with particular unit.
Looks like you haven't played as sm. Lasdevs are not antiinfantry.
They are the most vulnerable antivehicle unit in the game.
Actually, Lascannons deal brutal amounts of damage to infantry, whrn compared with Tankbustas (not counting Squiggs or bombardment doctrine) and Shadow Specters.
I would agree on you proposal if lasdevs didn't have setup time at all, like shadow spectres, and speed like tankbustas. Remember that this unit is very expensive. So the cost also should be the same, according to your logic.
Making all units similar will make no difference among factions and interest to play. Deal with it(c).
Why everyone thinks it's ok for WGs or Tankbusters to be so efficient vs. all armor types but Lascannons not? On Specters note, they are T1 unit, thus they MUST have less DPS potency than any T2 unit with AP dmg, why nobody considers it? They have wide array of utilities from backdoor to harassment thanks to mobility, while dedicated AV don't. Tankbusters come with very handy Squig ability which is free and can be brutally abused. WGs are very tough and can be recalled, while all Lascannons have is single doctrine which is pretty useless... Each AP unit needs serious tweaks, because every game post T2 you see stacks of LCs, TBs or WGs with couple of other units for support, this is very annoying.
A fully charged Lascannon team does about 31dps to infantry. Heavy Bolters are 56 I believe, and they do AOE damage. They are not doing crazy amounts of damage compared to the alternatives.
@Stoner said:
Why everyone thinks it's ok for WGs or Tankbusters to be so efficient vs. all armor types but Lascannons not? On Specters note, they are T1 unit, thus they MUST have less DPS potency than any T2 unit with AP dmg, why nobody considers it? They have wide array of utilities from backdoor to harassment thanks to mobility, while dedicated AV don't. Tankbusters come with very handy Squig ability which is free and can be brutally abused. WGs are very tough and can be recalled, while all Lascannons have is single doctrine which is pretty useless... Each AP unit needs serious tweaks, because every game post T2 you see stacks of LCs, TBs or WGs with couple of other units for support, this is very annoying.
Aint Lascannons T1? WGs r T2 so they kinda need that to compete with other T2 and Tankbusta needs to be fed scraps and they r just too slow and squishy they will die the moment they got jumped in and isnt expandable. Lascannons r quite cheap and expandable so u can mass them easily so it makes senses
@Stoner said:
Why everyone thinks it's ok for WGs or Tankbusters to be so efficient vs. all armor types but Lascannons not? On Specters note, they are T1 unit, thus they MUST have less DPS potency than any T2 unit with AP dmg, why nobody considers it? They have wide array of utilities from backdoor to harassment thanks to mobility, while dedicated AV don't. Tankbusters come with very handy Squig ability which is free and can be brutally abused. WGs are very tough and can be recalled, while all Lascannons have is single doctrine which is pretty useless... Each AP unit needs serious tweaks, because every game post T2 you see stacks of LCs, TBs or WGs with couple of other units for support, this is very annoying.
Aint Lascannons T1? WGs r T2 so they kinda need that to compete with other T2 and Tankbusta needs to be fed scraps and they r just too slow and squishy they will die the moment they got jumped in and isnt expandable. Lascannons r quite cheap and expandable so u can mass them easily so it makes senses
Lascannons are T2. Wraithguards cost a lot of Energy, however, so they should be brutally efficient, since they are not really spammable like Lascannons and Tankbustas.
@Stoner said:
Why everyone thinks it's ok for WGs or Tankbusters to be so efficient vs. all armor types but Lascannons not? On Specters note, they are T1 unit, thus they MUST have less DPS potency than any T2 unit with AP dmg, why nobody considers it? They have wide array of utilities from backdoor to harassment thanks to mobility, while dedicated AV don't. Tankbusters come with very handy Squig ability which is free and can be brutally abused. WGs are very tough and can be recalled, while all Lascannons have is single doctrine which is pretty useless... Each AP unit needs serious tweaks, because every game post T2 you see stacks of LCs, TBs or WGs with couple of other units for support, this is very annoying.
Then why do spectres cost power? If you remove the power cost then maybe it would be fair?
@Stoner said:
Why everyone thinks it's ok for WGs or Tankbusters to be so efficient vs. all armor types but Lascannons not? On Specters note, they are T1 unit, thus they MUST have less DPS potency than any T2 unit with AP dmg, why nobody considers it? They have wide array of utilities from backdoor to harassment thanks to mobility, while dedicated AV don't. Tankbusters come with very handy Squig ability which is free and can be brutally abused. WGs are very tough and can be recalled, while all Lascannons have is single doctrine which is pretty useless... Each AP unit needs serious tweaks, because every game post T2 you see stacks of LCs, TBs or WGs with couple of other units for support, this is very annoying.
Spectres cost power so it isnt exactly cheap. Theres an unlock cost for the shrine as well. The lascannon have longer range and do not cost power. The spectres have shorter range and need to charge up and it they get stunned or switch targets the damage output resets. If the lascannon also shared the same reset of damage maybe we wouldnt have this issue.
@Stoner said:
Why everyone thinks it's ok for WGs or Tankbusters to be so efficient vs. all armor types but Lascannons not? On Specters note, they are T1 unit, thus they MUST have less DPS potency than any T2 unit with AP dmg, why nobody considers it? They have wide array of utilities from backdoor to harassment thanks to mobility, while dedicated AV don't. Tankbusters come with very handy Squig ability which is free and can be brutally abused. WGs are very tough and can be recalled, while all Lascannons have is single doctrine which is pretty useless... Each AP unit needs serious tweaks, because every game post T2 you see stacks of LCs, TBs or WGs with couple of other units for support, this is very annoying.
Tankbustas have about 25% lower DPS then fully charged las cannon.
And WG costs almost 200 power.
Its irrelevant when you unlock specters, because first one will cost you more then 700 mp + they already start shooting 2 seconds later due to wind up, require more time to fully charge up and unless they are up against melee walker, they are always in range of opponents return fire, I think they have more then enough disadvantages going for them then advantages, that's why no one used them before, that's why they are not used at all for anything that isn't backdoor(which can be 100% prevented by placing a single loota/devastator in shield gen).
And if you think LC devs doctrine is useless, you might want to learn a thing or two from VindicareX streams.
@Stoner said:
Why everyone thinks it's ok for WGs or Tankbusters to be so efficient vs. all armor types but Lascannons not? On Specters note, they are T1 unit, thus they MUST have less DPS potency than any T2 unit with AP dmg, why nobody considers it? They have wide array of utilities from backdoor to harassment thanks to mobility, while dedicated AV don't. Tankbusters come with very handy Squig ability which is free and can be brutally abused. WGs are very tough and can be recalled, while all Lascannons have is single doctrine which is pretty useless... Each AP unit needs serious tweaks, because every game post T2 you see stacks of LCs, TBs or WGs with couple of other units for support, this is very annoying.
Tankbustas have about 25% lower DPS then fully charged las cannon.
And WG costs almost 200 power.
Its irrelevant when you unlock specters, because first one will cost you more then 700 mp + they already start shooting 2 seconds later due to wind up, require more time to fully charge up and unless they are up against melee walker, they are always in range of opponents return fire, I think they have more then enough disadvantages going for them then advantages, that's why no one used them before, that's why they are not used at all for anything that isn't backdoor(which can be 100% prevented by placing a single loota/devastator in shield gen).
And if you think LC devs doctrine is useless, you might want to learn a thing or two from VindicareX streams.
Just saying.
Tankbusters have great burst and superior mobility, esp with rocket jump doctrine, while lascannons are slow, and comparing damage is irrelevant, because it depends on situation. I doubt good player would push armor ahead into pack of lascannons to let them get full charge and melt everything, which it's not the the case with TB. WG has great utility for their cost and the only reason Specters are underused (though I've seen quite efficient use of them in several of my matches with good Eldar players) is because rest of their roster is better. Reapers are both anti-armor and anti-infantry in one, full vehicle roster of Eldar are skimmers who are better at backdoor and harassment than Specters and the main fault here is that LPs have normal armor, that's why getting Specters T1 is pretty much pointless, unit needs some tweaks, that's for sure.
Regarding LC doctrine, I just think there are better picks for the slot. It works exclusively on armored units, so if enemy doesn't push it too much, then what?
@RedDevilCG said:
Shadow Spectres are range 42 btw. For comparison, Line infantry are range 30, and Dark Reapers are range 45.
Tankbustas and Lascannons are range 50
@Katitof said:
Its irrelevant when you unlock specters, because first one will cost you more then 700 mp +
MP? Old habits die hard eh?
Mmmmebbeh
Playing relic RTS games for so long, it blended into one.
To be fair, do you know the requisition to get the first Tankbusta or Lascannon?
it actually varies, depending on your BO, so +/- 200.
Point is, if you're going for them in T1, you better have good micro, because you'll be ~2 line units short from now on.
@RedDevilCG said:
Shadow Spectres are range 42 btw. For comparison, Line infantry are range 30, and Dark Reapers are range 45.
Tankbustas and Lascannons are range 50
@Katitof said:
Its irrelevant when you unlock specters, because first one will cost you more then 700 mp +
MP? Old habits die hard eh?
To be fair, do you know the requisition to get the first Tankbusta or Lascannon?
@Stoner said:
Why everyone thinks it's ok for WGs or Tankbusters to be so efficient vs. all armor types but Lascannons not? On Specters note, they are T1 unit, thus they MUST have less DPS potency than any T2 unit with AP dmg, why nobody considers it? They have wide array of utilities from backdoor to harassment thanks to mobility, while dedicated AV don't. Tankbusters come with very handy Squig ability which is free and can be brutally abused. WGs are very tough and can be recalled, while all Lascannons have is single doctrine which is pretty useless... Each AP unit needs serious tweaks, because every game post T2 you see stacks of LCs, TBs or WGs with couple of other units for support, this is very annoying.
Tankbustas have about 25% lower DPS then fully charged las cannon.
And WG costs almost 200 power.
Its irrelevant when you unlock specters, because first one will cost you more then 700 mp + they already start shooting 2 seconds later due to wind up, require more time to fully charge up and unless they are up against melee walker, they are always in range of opponents return fire, I think they have more then enough disadvantages going for them then advantages, that's why no one used them before, that's why they are not used at all for anything that isn't backdoor(which can be 100% prevented by placing a single loota/devastator in shield gen).
And if you think LC devs doctrine is useless, you might want to learn a thing or two from VindicareX streams.
Just saying.
Tankbusters have great burst and superior mobility, esp with rocket jump doctrine, while lascannons are slow, and comparing damage is irrelevant, because it depends on situation. I doubt good player would push armor ahead into pack of lascannons to let them get full charge and melt everything, which it's not the the case with TB. WG has great utility for their cost and the only reason Specters are underused (though I've seen quite efficient use of them in several of my matches with good Eldar players) is because rest of their roster is better. Reapers are both anti-armor and anti-infantry in one, full vehicle roster of Eldar are skimmers who are better at backdoor and harassment than Specters and the main fault here is that LPs have normal armor, that's why getting Specters T1 is pretty much pointless, unit needs some tweaks, that's for sure.
Regarding LC doctrine, I just think there are better picks for the slot. It works exclusively on armored units, so if enemy doesn't push it too much, then what?
Dont forget you can get a true damage power sword at t2 to compensate for the reapers.
@Kat_RE said: The next update will introduce a new map and a TON of new skins!
Hi Kat, THANKS A LOT for this update, really really appreciated! and i can't wait for the new skins. more customization is never wrong...
speaking of customization, what is even more important to me aside from elite skins is more variety for the line units as well. are you guys planning to introduce line unit skins at some point? because i would REALLY LOVE to have skins that let me paint my Dark Reapers, Dire Avengers, Shadow Spectres and Howling Banshees via army color. it's really sad to always see them in purple/white only.
thanks again and keep up the amazing work!
Thanks for your comment. There are a couple of things to consider here!
We had a lot of leeway with the skins that we'll be releasing in July, but for certain units (whether that's an Elite or a line unit), there are some pretty obvious lore implications of changing their primary colour(s). We work very closely with Games Workshop on how all characters look, move, and sound - and skins are no different! A lot of conversation and back and forth goes into determining where the sweet spot is - that is, allowing for better customization options, while still respecting the setting. The line units you mention fall on the stricter end of that scale. So we can't take them any further at this point.
GW don't even want people messing with the color scheme of their units...
According to the preorder FAQ, we should have seen something about them by now.
but i guess plans change after preorder period is over, just like in coh2.
Regarding Lascannons, I think they should share the same conditions for their charge up mechanic as Shadow Spectres do. That is, if they get CCed or change target, they have to recharge. They could maybe receive a buff to HP, so that they aren't just Shadow Spectres that can't float or move while shooting, but remember that Lascannons require no charge-up time in order to fire, while Spectres do. If they are allowed to charge up their weapons and switch targets, they will always be strong against infantry, because they will always have very high AP DPS at long range that becomes stronger the more they fire; I can't see how target switching is especially strong against vehicles, and only serves to make them stronger against infantry. I would definitely like Relic to let us know what they think about this, because Lascannons dual-role is central to the way the game is played atm.
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Comments
Katitof
Actually, thanks to long range, low model count and same hp as any other AT team, they are LEAST vulnerable as AoE doesn't affect them as much as others.
They are vulnerable only if you put them at front line.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Diogen84
Set up time is short and comparable to the spectres charge up time.
The range of las devs makes them more dependable than spectres....they cost 450 but spectres cost 435/15.
If you go down to the bureau de change you'll find the exchange rate of power to rec makes spectres considerably more expensive.
Katitof
Las devs do NOT have set up time, they never had, they start shooting instantly the very moment they stop.
In comparison shadow specters actually DO have a set up time, because each time they acquire a target, they need to wind up for 2 seconds before they start shooting.
Las devs also outrange every other non ordnance unit except for killakan and have same range AND dps as wraithguard.
Shadow specters can't shoot at non melee unit without being in range of it and tank bustas are actually susceptible to AOE because of large model count.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Katitof
I swear they have a very short setup time?
You can't say that LC has the same DPS as Wraithguard though - obviously we have to account for the wind up time.
Switching targets does make it very easy though - and I am very tired of seeing unthinking A-move Lascannon blobs trading so efficiently.
Katitof
Nope, not even wind up time, they stop, they shoot.
They actually do have same dps fully charged, WGs seem better, because they apply all their damage in a single burst with long pause, while LCs constantly apply damage, however the DPS is exactly the same for both.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Katitof
Apologies I meant charge up time not wind up.
Yeah they need to be toned down - I don't think there are many SM players that honestly think otherwise.
Either that or spectres need to be brought on par.
Personally I hate all of this build up charge cr*p....it's not nearly as interesting or tense as frontloaded, slow refire single shots.....that said it is easier to balance and more 'competitve'
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
Makes no sense that they are good against normal armour when spectres need 5-6 squads for tac marines.
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
The spectres seem really weak now. Same with their animation. I ve even reported that stuff as a bug with evidence. Still waiting for reply.
jonoliveira12
They have no setup time.
Stoner
Why everyone thinks it's ok for WGs or Tankbusters to be so efficient vs. all armor types but Lascannons not? On Specters note, they are T1 unit, thus they MUST have less DPS potency than any T2 unit with AP dmg, why nobody considers it? They have wide array of utilities from backdoor to harassment thanks to mobility, while dedicated AV don't. Tankbusters come with very handy Squig ability which is free and can be brutally abused. WGs are very tough and can be recalled, while all Lascannons have is single doctrine which is pretty useless... Each AP unit needs serious tweaks, because every game post T2 you see stacks of LCs, TBs or WGs with couple of other units for support, this is very annoying.
RedDevilCG
A fully charged Lascannon team does about 31dps to infantry. Heavy Bolters are 56 I believe, and they do AOE damage. They are not doing crazy amounts of damage compared to the alternatives.
DmonBlu
Aint Lascannons T1? WGs r T2 so they kinda need that to compete with other T2 and Tankbusta needs to be fed scraps and they r just too slow and squishy they will die the moment they got jumped in and isnt expandable. Lascannons r quite cheap and expandable so u can mass them easily so it makes senses
jonoliveira12
Lascannons are T2. Wraithguards cost a lot of Energy, however, so they should be brutally efficient, since they are not really spammable like Lascannons and Tankbustas.
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
Then why do spectres cost power? If you remove the power cost then maybe it would be fair?
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
Spectres cost power so it isnt exactly cheap. Theres an unlock cost for the shrine as well. The lascannon have longer range and do not cost power. The spectres have shorter range and need to charge up and it they get stunned or switch targets the damage output resets. If the lascannon also shared the same reset of damage maybe we wouldnt have this issue.
Katitof
Tankbustas have about 25% lower DPS then fully charged las cannon.
And WG costs almost 200 power.
Its irrelevant when you unlock specters, because first one will cost you more then 700 mp + they already start shooting 2 seconds later due to wind up, require more time to fully charge up and unless they are up against melee walker, they are always in range of opponents return fire, I think they have more then enough disadvantages going for them then advantages, that's why no one used them before, that's why they are not used at all for anything that isn't backdoor(which can be 100% prevented by placing a single loota/devastator in shield gen).
And if you think LC devs doctrine is useless, you might want to learn a thing or two from VindicareX streams.
Just saying.
RedDevilCG
Shadow Spectres are range 42 btw. For comparison, Line infantry are range 30, and Dark Reapers are range 45.
Tankbustas and Lascannons are range 50
MP? Old habits die hard eh?
To be fair, do you know the requisition to get the first Tankbusta or Lascannon?
Stoner
Tankbusters have great burst and superior mobility, esp with rocket jump doctrine, while lascannons are slow, and comparing damage is irrelevant, because it depends on situation. I doubt good player would push armor ahead into pack of lascannons to let them get full charge and melt everything, which it's not the the case with TB. WG has great utility for their cost and the only reason Specters are underused (though I've seen quite efficient use of them in several of my matches with good Eldar players) is because rest of their roster is better. Reapers are both anti-armor and anti-infantry in one, full vehicle roster of Eldar are skimmers who are better at backdoor and harassment than Specters and the main fault here is that LPs have normal armor, that's why getting Specters T1 is pretty much pointless, unit needs some tweaks, that's for sure.
Regarding LC doctrine, I just think there are better picks for the slot. It works exclusively on armored units, so if enemy doesn't push it too much, then what?
Katitof
Mmmmebbeh
Playing relic RTS games for so long, it blended into one.
it actually varies, depending on your BO, so +/- 200.
Point is, if you're going for them in T1, you better have good micro, because you'll be ~2 line units short from now on.
XentziS
This might've already been asked, but will we be able to customize the colors for ALL skins, not just the base?
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
Requisition is easier to come by than power.
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
Dont forget you can get a true damage power sword at t2 to compensate for the reapers.
Diogen84
These topics will live forever.
deadman
GW don't even want people messing with the color scheme of their units...
...how are those modding tools coming along?
nachocheese
According to the preorder FAQ, we should have seen something about them by now.
but i guess plans change after preorder period is over, just like in coh2.
Lude
Regarding Lascannons, I think they should share the same conditions for their charge up mechanic as Shadow Spectres do. That is, if they get CCed or change target, they have to recharge. They could maybe receive a buff to HP, so that they aren't just Shadow Spectres that can't float or move while shooting, but remember that Lascannons require no charge-up time in order to fire, while Spectres do. If they are allowed to charge up their weapons and switch targets, they will always be strong against infantry, because they will always have very high AP DPS at long range that becomes stronger the more they fire; I can't see how target switching is especially strong against vehicles, and only serves to make them stronger against infantry. I would definitely like Relic to let us know what they think about this, because Lascannons dual-role is central to the way the game is played atm.