Diomedes is almost immortal vs elder, especially at a 3 elite points. 3x upgraded (x1) banshee's can't kill him and reapers setup is too slow to get away from him. There are perfect setups maybe that can be played but in a fast flowing game, very hard. My mate and I tested against elder elites, all failed of same cost and even Kyre (5 elites points) can't win. He and his army will more than likely just trample straight through.
@houndtide said:
Diomedes is almost immortal vs elder, especially at a 3 elite points. 3x upgraded (x1) banshee's can't kill him and reapers setup is too slow to get away from him. There are perfect setups maybe that can be played but in a fast flowing game, very hard. My mate and I tested against elder elites, all failed of same cost and even Kyre (5 elites points) can't win. He and his army will more than likely just trample straight through.
While what you say is technically correct, it doesn't play out that way in reality.
I can give you any number of reasons why Diomedes isn't as "immortal" as you claim or ways to counter him. But instead, I'll refer you to a VoD of mine on twitch of me playing Eldar where I played vs. Saya's SM (a lot of Diomedes) and succeeded very well in several games. They take place in the begning of the video so you shouldn't have to search too much:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/162612094
A good example is me vs. Saya (4:37:30 timestamp is when game begins) where Says rushes diomedes first.
That being said, Diomedes is pretty ++heresy redacted++ tough to fight as Eldar - I comment on this after the match and how I countered him.
Curious myself of what type of upgrade balance team intends to do for Devastators, other than that I agree with Vindi's proposals. I think Chaplain shouldn't have global buffs too, instead improved AoE one and honestly, this guy really needs some attention...
Not sure about Eldritch Storm. making it 1 pt would make sense if it keeps current stats, giving it bigger slow effect could make it as broken as before, that's why it got nerfed in the first place. This ability strikes me as being generally used in form of conduit, where it should have more power in form of damage or cc. On the other hand, Conduit is pretty good, if it gets further buffs, 1 point cost would be completely unjustified. It's really tricky to balance it well, especially first form, which can easily become OP again, because let's face it, it really has no counter-play.
I would be fine with either a 50/50 or 75/75 Dev upgrade on arsenal. Probably locked into T2 though. Glad to hear a lot of @GuruSkippy 's thoughts went into the patch! It makes me that much more excited about it.
As for the Storm, I would maybe give a slight buff to the default state, but an EP reduction sounds way too drastic. As @Stoner says, it's the only nuke with no counterplay in its default state, so if we make it too good then it'll be just crazy. At least you can attack the conduit form.
Hey @GuruSkippy - thanks for the comment! Three of the things that you've mentioned have already been addressed for the next patch. Drop pods will no longer deal damage to objectives, and Plant the Standard will no longer heal if it has been captured. Both of these were bugs that have been addressed in the August update. Units will no longer generate Fury when attacking neutral objects - so that's the Terminator, Chaplain, and Mad Dread.
For Chaplain Diomedes - his shield and heal are only global when he uses Liturgies of Battle, and even then, are only half the effectiveness of a normal cast. There's still a much greater benefit of being within close range to the Chaplain. Do you feel that the trade-off between power vs. range is always an easy decision?
Nice, I didn't expect that.
For chaplain diomedes, even if it has lower effectiveness, my problem is that I can't counter it if he is on the other side of the map, while I'm fighting on the opposite side.
But with the change to fury not generating anymore on scraps, maybe it will be ok. So I'll wait for the patch to comment about it any further.
@Kat_RE said: @vindicarex Regarding the Heavy Bolter's slow, the balance team is also looking into the possibility of trying it as an upgrade that costs 50 Requisition and 50 Power. We'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this!
I reckon no one would buy it, except late-game. The benefit is not appealing.
Glad to hear you fix the bugs where terms,diomedes, mad dread generate zeal
I'm with the Diomedes suggestions of Vindi.
Further I think , decimating race-traits is a bbad idea. If you keep going with that, it's gonna be a boring game.
Another point, I think drop-pods could use a +1 s delay
For SM-Scouts I want to mark, regarding 25% overall HP-bbuff, their damage/price might be out of proportion, even with the damage buff.
Space Marines make by bloodpressure go up right now. Im rank 27 in 1on1, 26 in 2on2 and 30 in 3on3. And this race is a joke from the beginning to the end. It starts with the first drop pod being able to interrupt my first tower (as orc) and ends with the ultimate being the strongest in the game and at the same moment the hardest to counter.
flamers deny any early orc pressure. ANY. One wrong engagement and the game is over, and that from minute 2 till 10
ASM are, compared to Boyz, way too strong. Ye, they cost 200 req more. Therefore they have a free engage and escape mechanic, can deal with towers on their own, even in lategame. ASM can effectivly interrupt any kind of ranged squads like lootas. While Boyz become completey useless in lategame, espeically without trucks. They are not even worth as cannon fodder, cause they insta die to anything lategame.
Lass-Canons. I mean look at ANY random game you want, every SM goes mass Lass-Cannons as lategame? Why? Hmmm, let me make a guess - cause they are too strong perhaps? 120 armor piercing dps with level 3 upgrade? Melting any lategame tech while Gabriel Angelos completly denies my Infantry with its limitless stun combos. 120 melee dps means 60 dps to normal armor as well by the way.
Dreadnoughts - wow man, don't make me start on them. Im seriously asking myself if one of the devs is able to look into my face and tell me that they are not broken - without blinking. 2 Dreadnoughts are able to rekk your whole base in 2 minutes while 3 squads of tankbusters shot at them. They literally 4 shot your mainbuilding or your power core. ARE YOU KIDDING ME. Wtf is that. At the same moment, DeffDreads melt like butter to anything. Sometimes I sent 3 Deffdreads and they are all dead before reaching the enemy army (while we are on even supply). Who the fu_ck designed that?
Ultimate. Do I even have to say anything about that... Lifting my 9 cost elite. Killing my whole army when I had a perfect engage. Fu_ck off
Drops: Just that you get a feeling how strong drops are. 1.) Backdooring - giving you the possibility to pressure the opponent at any point in the game, no matter how the game goes 2.) Droping on units that have a defensive position/ presplit (and denying any advantage they would have) 3.) Interrupting abilites 4) Giving you the firststrike advantage, even when attacking.
Doctrine superiorty (autorepair vehicles at any building, slowing flamers etc) . What does orc have: One time heal on looting scrap (but just for none elites, would be op otherwise!). Shouting for Boyz with global cooldown... ah come on fuc_k it, I could go on like this for 1 hour.
Seriously, when I was reading your planed patchnotes I realized you had no idea what you are doing. Buffing SM while nerfing Orc. That was the point that made me go fu_ck it.
@DerCremige said:
Space Marines make by bloodpressure go up right now. Im rank 27 in 1on1, 26 in 2on2 and 30 in 3on3. And this race is a joke from the beginning to the end. It starts with the first drop pod being able to interrupt my first tower (as orc) and ends with the ultimate being the strongest in the game and at the same moment the hardest to counter.
flamers deny any early orc pressure. ANY. One wrong engagement and the game is over, and that from minute 2 till 10
ASM are, compared to Boyz, way too strong. Ye, they cost 200 req more. Therefore they have a free engage and escape mechanic, can deal with towers on their own, even in lategame. ASM can effectivly interrupt any kind of ranged squads like lootas. While Boyz become completey useless in lategame, espeically without trucks. They are not even worth as cannon fodder, cause they insta die to anything lategame.
Lass-Canons. I mean look at ANY random game you want, every SM goes mass Lass-Cannons as lategame? Why? Hmmm, let me make a guess - cause they are too strong perhaps? 120 armor piercing dps with level 3 upgrade? Melting any lategame tech while Gabriel Angelos completly denies my Infantry with its limitless stun combos. 120 melee dps means 60 dps to normal armor as well by the way.
Dreadnoughts - wow man, don't make me start on them. Im seriously asking myself if one of the devs is able to look into my face and tell me that they are not broken - without blinking. 2 Dreadnoughts are able to rekk your whole base in 2 minutes while 3 squads of tankbusters shot at them. They literally 4 shot your mainbuilding or your power core. ARE YOU KIDDING ME. Wtf is that. At the same moment, DeffDreads melt like butter to anything. Sometimes I sent 3 Deffdreads and they are all dead before reaching the enemy army (while we are on even supply). Who the fu_ck designed that?
Ultimate. Do I even have to say anything about that... Lifting my 9 cost elite. Killing my whole army when I had a perfect engage. Fu_ck off
Drops: Just that you get a feeling how strong drops are. 1.) Backdooring - giving you the possibility to pressure the opponent at any point in the game, no matter how the game goes 2.) Droping on units that have a defensive position/ presplit (and denying any advantage they would have) 3.) Interrupting abilites 4) Giving you the firststrike advantage, even when attacking.
Doctrine superiorty (autorepair vehicles at any building, slowing flamers etc) . What does orc have: One time heal on looting scrap (but just for none elites, would be op otherwise!). Shouting for Boyz with global cooldown... ah come on fuc_k it, I could go on like this for 1 hour.
Seriously, when I was reading your planed patchnotes I realized you had no idea what you are doing. Buffing SM while nerfing Orc. That was the point that made me go fu_ck it.
Hey man, I agree on a lot of those points being strong however, if any faction is slightly over performing it is orks.
as for your points:
-Flamers are getting nerfed in the notes where DoT isnt as high, If anything orks with all their cc have a great way to counter flamers. Storm boyz make a flamer useless for example.
-ASM also cost power which in this game is a huge disadvantage as it delays your T2 which is super important. Basically worth 2 boyz squads
-Las cannons are getting nerfed and yes are OP.
-Dreadnoughts have a very precise window where they work, and yes at that point they are quite strong with their initial interruption after that they are only really used to finish the core which with 3 drop pods and THAT much power and req most people probably coulda just pushed with an army and won anyway.
-Did you say 9 point elites? lol... That being said, I don't think this should be a thing especially if they do change the rate at which elite points are accumulated or slow the game down to where 9 point elites become relevant.
-I don't mind drop pods other than the cheese win BD potential but orks can do this with killa kans too. Perhaps a no drop zone past where the turrets are?
-Doctrines are not really a problem.
@Kat_RE earlier you mentioned the balance team considering making the slow on heavy bolters an upgrade, is there any reasoning as to what becomes a doctrine and what is a unit upgrade? Ex: why does banshee pay for quick strike and have a doctrine that makes it so that makes it so that they deflect damage when charging with it? And the ASM has an ability that lets it get a free jump as a doctrine, but not an upgrade? (purely out of curiosity not saying one is stronger than the other) Why is it not more stream lined such as abilities are upgrades in game eg. quick strike, ASM second jump ability, wrathguard damage to normal armor instead of vehicle toggle, etc. And doctrines are passive bonuses like more slow on bolters, healing scrap, faster grot heal, DA shields? Seems odd to lock out parts of the army outside of the actual game (looking at you turrets why are turrets a doctrine?)
On the topic of never used things, are there considerations to the many early game and mid game elites, but few late game elites that are used in games at most levels of play and definitely at high levels? And as a final question, what are the teams thoughts on a building that allows for the summoning of elites similar to WC3? Just make it an orbital relay for space marines, a teleporta pad for orks, some fancy portal thing for eldar (sorry not an eldar guy). You could keep the 3 elite system, in that you pick 3 elites pre-game which give their commanding abilities if summoned, but you CAN summon any of the other elites from this building. And finally what if for the death timers, it worked that you can instantly summon an elite back but it costs its full elite points again, but the longer you wait it becomes cheaper, eg wait the full timer its free again?
@DerCremige said:
Space Marines make by bloodpressure go up right now. Im rank 27 in 1on1, 26 in 2on2 and 30 in 3on3. And this race is a joke from the beginning to the end. It starts with the first drop pod being able to interrupt my first tower (as orc) and ends with the ultimate being the strongest in the game and at the same moment the hardest to counter.
flamers deny any early orc pressure. ANY. One wrong engagement and the game is over, and that from minute 2 till 10
ASM are, compared to Boyz, way too strong. Ye, they cost 200 req more. Therefore they have a free engage and escape mechanic, can deal with towers on their own, even in lategame. ASM can effectivly interrupt any kind of ranged squads like lootas. While Boyz become completey useless in lategame, espeically without trucks. They are not even worth as cannon fodder, cause they insta die to anything lategame.
Lass-Canons. I mean look at ANY random game you want, every SM goes mass Lass-Cannons as lategame? Why? Hmmm, let me make a guess - cause they are too strong perhaps? 120 armor piercing dps with level 3 upgrade? Melting any lategame tech while Gabriel Angelos completly denies my Infantry with its limitless stun combos. 120 melee dps means 60 dps to normal armor as well by the way.
Dreadnoughts - wow man, don't make me start on them. Im seriously asking myself if one of the devs is able to look into my face and tell me that they are not broken - without blinking. 2 Dreadnoughts are able to rekk your whole base in 2 minutes while 3 squads of tankbusters shot at them. They literally 4 shot your mainbuilding or your power core. ARE YOU KIDDING ME. Wtf is that. At the same moment, DeffDreads melt like butter to anything. Sometimes I sent 3 Deffdreads and they are all dead before reaching the enemy army (while we are on even supply). Who the fu_ck designed that?
Ultimate. Do I even have to say anything about that... Lifting my 9 cost elite. Killing my whole army when I had a perfect engage. Fu_ck off
Drops: Just that you get a feeling how strong drops are. 1.) Backdooring - giving you the possibility to pressure the opponent at any point in the game, no matter how the game goes 2.) Droping on units that have a defensive position/ presplit (and denying any advantage they would have) 3.) Interrupting abilites 4) Giving you the firststrike advantage, even when attacking.
Doctrine superiorty (autorepair vehicles at any building, slowing flamers etc) . What does orc have: One time heal on looting scrap (but just for none elites, would be op otherwise!). Shouting for Boyz with global cooldown... ah come on fuc_k it, I could go on like this for 1 hour.
Seriously, when I was reading your planed patchnotes I realized you had no idea what you are doing. Buffing SM while nerfing Orc. That was the point that made me go fu_ck it.
A lot of what u say is true and why i've stopped playing, just simple math you nerf eldar race mechanic now you're going to nerf orks and not touching SM, late game is near unstoppable with 3 drops and banner that heals/reinforce for free right by the objectives but 100s of posts and not once has it been addressed as a problem, I don't get why since i've played the dawn of war series SM gets a pass being OP/easier to play while as soon as another race is it gets nerfed the next patch.
hmm then why aren't more people playing? I remember you getting pissed when call da boyz was used in dow2, well it's just like that when you play against SM just endless reinforcing/buffing FOR Free wherever SM wants it. Except this time no retreat mechanic and you just lose a vp or power farm etc this gets put right at your objectives which as you know is the way to win in this game mode, you can't force it off and you can't retreat and fight another engagement because this happens right by your shield gen/turret/power core. Waagh allowed an ork in this way to harrass SM to keep the player from getting this critical mass in late game but now what?
Still, getting Reapers to have Slow - especially harsher than current HBD's have - is a bit too much for them, even with Battle Focus required. It won't hurt to add an enchance to their defensive properties via doctrine, but Slow+True damage in the area.. it's just too viable. Maybe, to give them chanelling vision increase, just like the shield of Devastators, would be more appropriate to boost their defensive performance?
Have to add it here: original Reaper focus would have worked if Eldars had at least one permanent patch of Stealth cover via doctrine\elite or in their core-tech. They depend on it too much and not every map provide them in sufficient number.
Considering Orks: I'm concerned about Kommando Konsripts. Is anybody uses it? When the whole Shootas exsitance was dedicated to grenade tossing, that might have, actually, worked. Now, with the whole sequence of changes, taking away 1\3 of that nade damage and boosting HP's by 1/5.. do they need it?
In regard of Deathstorm - that may be a little too over the plank. SM got the abilitiy to deploy all over the map, combined with DS's getting HP boost from the vehicles' tech.. this may create some deadly combinations, like 2 ASM+DS or TM(getting a flamer)+DS.
By the way, SM's infantries are too expandable to reinforce on late stages. Eldars got shields, orks got a piece of scrap-worth added to the unit cost, while SM got nothing of those. There is just no point to send them away from the fight, deducting the damage they could have done for 25% return in the cost (upgraded TM's exluded). So, maybe, it would be a good choice in "faction mechanics" to raise their reinforce bonus to 35% locked untill T2, instead of tuning this one?
@Kat_RE said: @vindicarex Regarding the Heavy Bolter's slow, the balance team is also looking into the possibility of trying it as an upgrade that costs 50 Requisition and 50 Power. We'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this!
I like it. It is substantial enough to be a choice between flamers or dev slow. A slight change to the model would also be welcome.
@HARRYY said:
I was thinking on wraithguard and -blade. What if you lower the prices a bit and nerf them accordingly?
Then you'll remove then from the game for good.
You haven't put your reasoning or actual suggestion, you haven't mentioned what are the issues with them.
I don't really know what you're trying to say.
Now, while WGs are mostly fine, together with fixed doctrines, WBs will always feel bad, because they are "dreadnought" role unit which is being wrecked by all AoE and has none of its own while being last to arrive on field.
Why not just make Wraithblades T2, like all other Dreads? Their cost is already prohibitive enough to prevent them from reaching large numbers ever, much less in the mid game. They are also very vulnerable to AA which becomes quite prevalent on the field in mid game. For these 2 reasons I think it would maintain balance just fine,while giving them some use, as a counter to the other factions Dreds.
@LastRights said:
Why not just make Wraithblades T2, like all other Dreads? Their cost is already prohibitive enough to prevent them from reaching large numbers ever, much less in the mid game. They are also very vulnerable to AA which becomes quite prevalent on the field in mid game. For these 2 reasons I think it would maintain balance just fine,while giving them some use, as a counter to the other factions Dreds.
@LastRights said:
Why not just make Wraithblades T2, like all other Dreads? Their cost is already prohibitive enough to prevent them from reaching large numbers ever, much less in the mid game. They are also very vulnerable to AA which becomes quite prevalent on the field in mid game. For these 2 reasons I think it would maintain balance just fine,while giving them some use, as a counter to the other factions Dreds.
Would be good idea, but Wraithguards must be moved to T3 then, they are obviously T3 unit.
@LastRights said:
Why not just make Wraithblades T2, like all other Dreads? Their cost is already prohibitive enough to prevent them from reaching large numbers ever, much less in the mid game. They are also very vulnerable to AA which becomes quite prevalent on the field in mid game. For these 2 reasons I think it would maintain balance just fine,while giving them some use, as a counter to the other factions Dreds.
Would be good idea, but Wraithguards must be moved to T3 then, they are obviously T3 unit.
@LastRights said:
Why not just make Wraithblades T2, like all other Dreads? Their cost is already prohibitive enough to prevent them from reaching large numbers ever, much less in the mid game. They are also very vulnerable to AA which becomes quite prevalent on the field in mid game. For these 2 reasons I think it would maintain balance just fine,while giving them some use, as a counter to the other factions Dreds.
Would be good idea, but Wraithguards must be moved to T3 then, they are obviously T3 unit.
And then Eldar will become extremely underpowered and susceptible to any kind of heavy armor rushes, because suddenly they'll be completely impotent in countering them.
While Shadow Specters aren't as bad as they were, they still aren't on level of tankbustas or LC devs by a long shot.
I will wait for next patch and watch what Relic will change. Currently Eldars are "support" race that can't do anything by itself and loose any direct confrontation. Their "hit and run" mechanic currently "hit and die" cause SM have droppods&standart as answer to ANY enemy move. Angelos have twice more hp than heavy SM tank currently + 3CC+1CC/damage and he cost only 4 elite points. SM have fat armies and HUGE amount of CC that exeeds Eldars CC about 5xtimes. Most funny example is scout Blind(?) grenades that's actually stun(????) half of your army while Banshees scream doctrine apply blind don't stun anything. Well that's only top of iceberg. I will make full feedback when Relic make their patch. Currently SM have CC 24/7 and fatness, orcs have overwhelming damage, eldars have nothing but support abilities with no their own units they can support.
@LastRights said:
Why not just make Wraithblades T2, like all other Dreads? Their cost is already prohibitive enough to prevent them from reaching large numbers ever, much less in the mid game. They are also very vulnerable to AA which becomes quite prevalent on the field in mid game. For these 2 reasons I think it would maintain balance just fine,while giving them some use, as a counter to the other factions Dreds.
Would be good idea, but Wraithguards must be moved to T3 then, they are obviously T3 unit.
And then Eldar will become extremely underpowered and susceptible to any kind of heavy armor rushes, because suddenly they'll be completely impotent in countering them.
While Shadow Specters aren't as bad as they were, they still aren't on level of tankbustas or LC devs by a long shot.
How would you know? You only know the game through the bias of poular casters. Please, stop pretending like you know what you are talking about.
On topic, I agree on the point that diomedes is too good vs Eldar, though wierdboy and macha are arguably OP in their own right. These hero units that are more powerful than anything we have previously seen in RTS games are indeed giving the game a moba-esqe feel to them that is off-putting. You get the sense that this is an an RTS for babies.
The game gets boring relatively quickly imo with hundreds of hours and 1v1 games in experience.
@LastRights said:
Why not just make Wraithblades T2, like all other Dreads? Their cost is already prohibitive enough to prevent them from reaching large numbers ever, much less in the mid game. They are also very vulnerable to AA which becomes quite prevalent on the field in mid game. For these 2 reasons I think it would maintain balance just fine,while giving them some use, as a counter to the other factions Dreds.
Would be good idea, but Wraithguards must be moved to T3 then, they are obviously T3 unit.
And then Eldar will become extremely underpowered and susceptible to any kind of heavy armor rushes, because suddenly they'll be completely impotent in countering them.
While Shadow Specters aren't as bad as they were, they still aren't on level of tankbustas or LC devs by a long shot.
In fact Wraithblades deal AP damage and in fact can be sort of an armor counter. I wouldn't protest against Specters being locked behind T2 (with free unlock) and buffed a little to be on par with lasdevs and bustas. Everything Relic does to WBs doesn't make them viable, they come at the wrong time when there's too much heavy firepower on both sides. They could be extremely useful on T2, and WGs are definitely T3 material, especially considering doctrine. But Relic goes so long with their idea of asymmetric design...
One other thing is shifting Ork Nobz and Deff Dreads to different tiers (with some tweaks), because for the life of me, I don't understand why race gets units with somewhat alike utility on the same tier, both heavy armor, both melee, one is obviously superior at this role...
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Comments
houndtide
Diomedes is almost immortal vs elder, especially at a 3 elite points. 3x upgraded (x1) banshee's can't kill him and reapers setup is too slow to get away from him. There are perfect setups maybe that can be played but in a fast flowing game, very hard. My mate and I tested against elder elites, all failed of same cost and even Kyre (5 elites points) can't win. He and his army will more than likely just trample straight through.
Guziol
Your best bet against chaplain are DA. Again... They are the only source of crowd control and that's what you need.
vindicarex
While what you say is technically correct, it doesn't play out that way in reality.
I can give you any number of reasons why Diomedes isn't as "immortal" as you claim or ways to counter him. But instead, I'll refer you to a VoD of mine on twitch of me playing Eldar where I played vs. Saya's SM (a lot of Diomedes) and succeeded very well in several games. They take place in the begning of the video so you shouldn't have to search too much:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/162612094
A good example is me vs. Saya (4:37:30 timestamp is when game begins) where Says rushes diomedes first.
That being said, Diomedes is pretty ++heresy redacted++ tough to fight as Eldar - I comment on this after the match and how I countered him.
Stoner
Curious myself of what type of upgrade balance team intends to do for Devastators, other than that I agree with Vindi's proposals. I think Chaplain shouldn't have global buffs too, instead improved AoE one and honestly, this guy really needs some attention...
Not sure about Eldritch Storm. making it 1 pt would make sense if it keeps current stats, giving it bigger slow effect could make it as broken as before, that's why it got nerfed in the first place. This ability strikes me as being generally used in form of conduit, where it should have more power in form of damage or cc. On the other hand, Conduit is pretty good, if it gets further buffs, 1 point cost would be completely unjustified. It's really tricky to balance it well, especially first form, which can easily become OP again, because let's face it, it really has no counter-play.
Atlas
I would be fine with either a 50/50 or 75/75 Dev upgrade on arsenal. Probably locked into T2 though. Glad to hear a lot of @GuruSkippy 's thoughts went into the patch! It makes me that much more excited about it.
As for the Storm, I would maybe give a slight buff to the default state, but an EP reduction sounds way too drastic. As @Stoner says, it's the only nuke with no counterplay in its default state, so if we make it too good then it'll be just crazy. At least you can attack the conduit form.
GuruSkippy
Nice, I didn't expect that.
For chaplain diomedes, even if it has lower effectiveness, my problem is that I can't counter it if he is on the other side of the map, while I'm fighting on the opposite side.
But with the change to fury not generating anymore on scraps, maybe it will be ok. So I'll wait for the patch to comment about it any further.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Atlas
In its present form it's honestly barely worth one elite point.
I agree that caution is needed with buffing it but truly it is currently awful.
HARRYY
I reckon no one would buy it, except late-game. The benefit is not appealing.
Glad to hear you fix the bugs where terms,diomedes, mad dread generate zeal
I'm with the Diomedes suggestions of Vindi.
Further I think , decimating race-traits is a bbad idea. If you keep going with that, it's gonna be a boring game.
Another point, I think drop-pods could use a +1 s delay
For SM-Scouts I want to mark, regarding 25% overall HP-bbuff, their damage/price might be out of proportion, even with the damage buff.
DerCremige
Space Marines make by bloodpressure go up right now. Im rank 27 in 1on1, 26 in 2on2 and 30 in 3on3. And this race is a joke from the beginning to the end. It starts with the first drop pod being able to interrupt my first tower (as orc) and ends with the ultimate being the strongest in the game and at the same moment the hardest to counter.
Seriously, when I was reading your planed patchnotes I realized you had no idea what you are doing. Buffing SM while nerfing Orc. That was the point that made me go fu_ck it.
kodarus
Hey man, I agree on a lot of those points being strong however, if any faction is slightly over performing it is orks.
as for your points:
-Flamers are getting nerfed in the notes where DoT isnt as high, If anything orks with all their cc have a great way to counter flamers. Storm boyz make a flamer useless for example.
-ASM also cost power which in this game is a huge disadvantage as it delays your T2 which is super important. Basically worth 2 boyz squads
-Las cannons are getting nerfed and yes are OP.
-Dreadnoughts have a very precise window where they work, and yes at that point they are quite strong with their initial interruption after that they are only really used to finish the core which with 3 drop pods and THAT much power and req most people probably coulda just pushed with an army and won anyway.
-Did you say 9 point elites? lol... That being said, I don't think this should be a thing especially if they do change the rate at which elite points are accumulated or slow the game down to where 9 point elites become relevant.
-I don't mind drop pods other than the cheese win BD potential but orks can do this with killa kans too. Perhaps a no drop zone past where the turrets are?
-Doctrines are not really a problem.
TLDR: breath
aghabozorg
@Kat_RE SM has so many CC and knockbacks and tier 2 standard attacks also apply knockback.i think removing this knockback will be ok
kodarus
@Kat_RE earlier you mentioned the balance team considering making the slow on heavy bolters an upgrade, is there any reasoning as to what becomes a doctrine and what is a unit upgrade? Ex: why does banshee pay for quick strike and have a doctrine that makes it so that makes it so that they deflect damage when charging with it? And the ASM has an ability that lets it get a free jump as a doctrine, but not an upgrade? (purely out of curiosity not saying one is stronger than the other) Why is it not more stream lined such as abilities are upgrades in game eg. quick strike, ASM second jump ability, wrathguard damage to normal armor instead of vehicle toggle, etc. And doctrines are passive bonuses like more slow on bolters, healing scrap, faster grot heal, DA shields? Seems odd to lock out parts of the army outside of the actual game (looking at you turrets why are turrets a doctrine?)
On the topic of never used things, are there considerations to the many early game and mid game elites, but few late game elites that are used in games at most levels of play and definitely at high levels? And as a final question, what are the teams thoughts on a building that allows for the summoning of elites similar to WC3? Just make it an orbital relay for space marines, a teleporta pad for orks, some fancy portal thing for eldar (sorry not an eldar guy). You could keep the 3 elite system, in that you pick 3 elites pre-game which give their commanding abilities if summoned, but you CAN summon any of the other elites from this building. And finally what if for the death timers, it worked that you can instantly summon an elite back but it costs its full elite points again, but the longer you wait it becomes cheaper, eg wait the full timer its free again?
HARRYY
yes, flamer might need a bigger nerf and a decrease in cost then.
PaperBaG
A lot of what u say is true and why i've stopped playing, just simple math you nerf eldar race mechanic now you're going to nerf orks and not touching SM, late game is near unstoppable with 3 drops and banner that heals/reinforce for free right by the objectives but 100s of posts and not once has it been addressed as a problem, I don't get why since i've played the dawn of war series SM gets a pass being OP/easier to play while as soon as another race is it gets nerfed the next patch.
vindicarex
Maybe, just maybe, because you're wrong? @PaperBaG
PaperBaG
hmm then why aren't more people playing? I remember you getting pissed when call da boyz was used in dow2, well it's just like that when you play against SM just endless reinforcing/buffing FOR Free wherever SM wants it. Except this time no retreat mechanic and you just lose a vp or power farm etc this gets put right at your objectives which as you know is the way to win in this game mode, you can't force it off and you can't retreat and fight another engagement because this happens right by your shield gen/turret/power core. Waagh allowed an ork in this way to harrass SM to keep the player from getting this critical mass in late game but now what?
Ololo111
Good changes, mostly.
Still, getting Reapers to have Slow - especially harsher than current HBD's have - is a bit too much for them, even with Battle Focus required. It won't hurt to add an enchance to their defensive properties via doctrine, but Slow+True damage in the area.. it's just too viable. Maybe, to give them chanelling vision increase, just like the shield of Devastators, would be more appropriate to boost their defensive performance?
Have to add it here: original Reaper focus would have worked if Eldars had at least one permanent patch of Stealth cover via doctrine\elite or in their core-tech. They depend on it too much and not every map provide them in sufficient number.
Considering Orks: I'm concerned about Kommando Konsripts. Is anybody uses it? When the whole Shootas exsitance was dedicated to grenade tossing, that might have, actually, worked. Now, with the whole sequence of changes, taking away 1\3 of that nade damage and boosting HP's by 1/5.. do they need it?
In regard of Deathstorm - that may be a little too over the plank. SM got the abilitiy to deploy all over the map, combined with DS's getting HP boost from the vehicles' tech.. this may create some deadly combinations, like 2 ASM+DS or TM(getting a flamer)+DS.
By the way, SM's infantries are too expandable to reinforce on late stages. Eldars got shields, orks got a piece of scrap-worth added to the unit cost, while SM got nothing of those. There is just no point to send them away from the fight, deducting the damage they could have done for 25% return in the cost (upgraded TM's exluded). So, maybe, it would be a good choice in "faction mechanics" to raise their reinforce bonus to 35% locked untill T2, instead of tuning this one?
HARRYY
I was thinking on wraithguard and -blade. What if you lower the prices a bit and nerf them accordingly?
frumpylumps
I like it. It is substantial enough to be a choice between flamers or dev slow. A slight change to the model would also be welcome.
jonoliveira12
I think those are fine as it is.
Katitof
Then you'll remove then from the game for good.
You haven't put your reasoning or actual suggestion, you haven't mentioned what are the issues with them.
I don't really know what you're trying to say.
Now, while WGs are mostly fine, together with fixed doctrines, WBs will always feel bad, because they are "dreadnought" role unit which is being wrecked by all AoE and has none of its own while being last to arrive on field.
LastRights
Why not just make Wraithblades T2, like all other Dreads? Their cost is already prohibitive enough to prevent them from reaching large numbers ever, much less in the mid game. They are also very vulnerable to AA which becomes quite prevalent on the field in mid game. For these 2 reasons I think it would maintain balance just fine,while giving them some use, as a counter to the other factions Dreds.
jonoliveira12
I have been saying this for a long time now...
Stoner
Would be good idea, but Wraithguards must be moved to T3 then, they are obviously T3 unit.
jonoliveira12
No they are not.
Katitof
And then Eldar will become extremely underpowered and susceptible to any kind of heavy armor rushes, because suddenly they'll be completely impotent in countering them.
While Shadow Specters aren't as bad as they were, they still aren't on level of tankbustas or LC devs by a long shot.
Lepreconum
I will wait for next patch and watch what Relic will change. Currently Eldars are "support" race that can't do anything by itself and loose any direct confrontation. Their "hit and run" mechanic currently "hit and die" cause SM have droppods&standart as answer to ANY enemy move. Angelos have twice more hp than heavy SM tank currently + 3CC+1CC/damage and he cost only 4 elite points. SM have fat armies and HUGE amount of CC that exeeds Eldars CC about 5xtimes. Most funny example is scout Blind(?) grenades that's actually stun(????) half of your army while Banshees scream doctrine apply blind don't stun anything. Well that's only top of iceberg. I will make full feedback when Relic make their patch. Currently SM have CC 24/7 and fatness, orcs have overwhelming damage, eldars have nothing but support abilities with no their own units they can support.
frumpylumps
How would you know? You only know the game through the bias of poular casters. Please, stop pretending like you know what you are talking about.
On topic, I agree on the point that diomedes is too good vs Eldar, though wierdboy and macha are arguably OP in their own right. These hero units that are more powerful than anything we have previously seen in RTS games are indeed giving the game a moba-esqe feel to them that is off-putting. You get the sense that this is an an RTS for babies.
The game gets boring relatively quickly imo with hundreds of hours and 1v1 games in experience.
Stoner
In fact Wraithblades deal AP damage and in fact can be sort of an armor counter. I wouldn't protest against Specters being locked behind T2 (with free unlock) and buffed a little to be on par with lasdevs and bustas. Everything Relic does to WBs doesn't make them viable, they come at the wrong time when there's too much heavy firepower on both sides. They could be extremely useful on T2, and WGs are definitely T3 material, especially considering doctrine. But Relic goes so long with their idea of asymmetric design...
One other thing is shifting Ork Nobz and Deff Dreads to different tiers (with some tweaks), because for the life of me, I don't understand why race gets units with somewhat alike utility on the same tier, both heavy armor, both melee, one is obviously superior at this role...