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post from korean ranker and community
BaByuByu
I'm streaming Dawn of War 3 and always busy with the rank game
i want to talk some complaints from people watching my stream,korea comunity,my self
before start talking,i have bad english, so
this posts is not going to be smooth..sorry about that
well i do not know how much players enjoy this patch...but many of fans and community are very confusing and angry
i was also disappointed
i'm not talking about balance
'balance' is very delicate and complex,can not judge a game with a little
so I put the balance back and say something about the game itself
most Koreans think this patch ruined the game, i'll tell you why they think so and what they want
first..it's not limited to this patch,this is an overall problem with this game
dow3 is very much affected early infantry unit spam
if you do this all-in rush in other games(the early unit spammer can only play very poorly) and if the defender try very defensive stance(he is weak in his troop strength but economic strength is strong)
(this is a traditional rts game aspect)
it make a pretty exciting scene
but dow3 is not
in dow3 spammer also can take the resource, exactly different from other games..it make no sense
the only way to counter it is follow spamming or earning electric resource and take tier or upgrade unit.
yes,that's what we want to say it. the patch make hard to earn electric resource and game is gonna always spamming battle
now snow balling is too strong to stop,'various strategies' are ridiculous
in just 5 minutes? winner has already been determined
i played total 1150 games and only less than 10% games reached tier 3, if I had not taken the time deliberately? it's only 20~30 games reached in tier3 and now it's getting worse
of course, a high tier game does not guarantee fun. someone will hate late game. but dow3 was too much focused early game
even if you play the same early game in other rts,you can use various strategies! like a early unit speed-up rush,range upgrade sabotage,surprise infiltration unit rush...etc
there is no such thing in dow3
many of my high-ranked friends say dow3 become a tedious and boring game
and the number of current player proves it
the 50% sale coupons make 800~1000 number of current player
then after patch? 400~600 current player
people are cruel..a game with a problem? they just leave the game
this patch perfectly wrong direction
i remember when dow1 were a lot of early game strategies...early armory heavy-weapon,grenade upgrade special force,3 minute land speeder
dow1 made us entertained with various strategies
actually,those days dow1 current players in 'korea' is more than dow3 'global' current player lol
dow1 is dow1 dow3 is dow3, dow1 is not necessarily right but i suggest take a good point from previous game
first, remove all doctrine! this may sound quite excessively,but it is necessary for the future of the game
doctrine always makes the same game because there is a great difference between having and not having a doctrine,so users try to produce doctrine units only
even you will know what the enemy will produce and enemy unit skills because of doctrine system
how boring?
removed doctrine should go to upgrade (provided by arsenal,barracks,HQ)
many possibilities of improved unit is make game unpredictable and excitingly
it will make users 'choose' whether to use the electric resource to upgrade or take the tier
and next,requisition generator should be made using requisition
the basic resources of the game must be produced through the basic resources(it is a very natural system)
it also make users 'choose' resource or infantry power
the possibility of choice enriches the game
otherwise u just see always spam strategy games(there is no burden on unit production in this version)
of course, the efficiency of the generator will need to be adjusted
last,improve electric resource efficiency
many players think nerf electric resource efficiency is most ridiculous decision on dow3 history
it make snow balling harder,boring 1tier fight,frustrate who try to many build
abundant electric resources will give a lot of possibilities
doctrine upgrade,unit power up,tier up,weapons...how funny?
ok,this is only part of our thinking
hope i want you to respond positively or negatively
actually,people with complaints have already left
so i want to see the reaction of relic rather than user
i think there is still hope (well..a lot of people think relic gave up dow3 because of AOE4 development)
thanks for reading
Comments
Firestone
I think so too.
After this patch, the number of users decreased. This situation will be the basis for the wrong direction of this patch.
PaperBaG
Your English is a lot better than most 2nd language posters, and as for what you are saying I agree and don't understand why they keep changing the eco and only balancing eldar and ork never SM
gk5589
I think so too
CANNED_F3TUS
I agree. Not sure how i would tackle doctrines. But more tech options is pretty important upgrade buildinga all have the same upgrade and 3 or 4 unique upgrades each. Which is kind of low. If they are to move most doctrines to upgrades they would have to implement a 2nd tech building so arsenel etc etc are not so cluttered.
blancat
Delete Power core mode and turn back to VP mode, relic
Many relicans hate this game because power core mode is bias and look alike MOBA(people dont want MOBA, they want Relic's traditional RTS)
Relic should read this post carefully or your game will be dead soon
Open RoadMap for waiting people, makes awesome new teaser(necron, IG, chaos,etc) , NEW MAP AND FACTION, NEW Elite UNITS
Remember, Many koreans like this game and supporting now
Do something, relic!
ps) i hope relic progress coh2 development again, Dont abandon coh2! still many people playing now!!
at least, fall balance patch must be live for broken coh2 balance
frumpylumps
I think its because the people in Relic balancing this game don't actually play it very much and so they are overly reliant on so called "top players" in what is a very small community, and the forums for feedback.
Popular casters like vindicareX complained about Orks, despite having very little experience playing orks themselves, created long balance threads suggesting drastic changes and led a forum rally cry to nerf them, and unfortunately it seems they were taken seriously. VindicareX should feel honestly feel ashamed of himself for suggesting the changes that he did in consideration of this lack of experience and game knowledge regarding orks, which were also made prematurely on the heels of the previous balance patch.
Relic, do you find it interesting how the popular casters that you apparently relied on so much to balance the game have the complete opposite opinion about this patch than the #1 player in the game in all factions?
I agree that this patch is perfectly in the wrong direction, and it made the game even more about elites than it was before.
섹빔섹빔
Need to rebuild the economic system.
Due to the existence of the doctrine, spam is being enforced.
** It is clear that no one can deny that the patch has 1000 to 400 users. **
Where are the users who were positive about this patch?
Do you have any objection to this patch that you expected to be positive?
Users who have heard relics do not play DOW3 anymore.
1. I do not want to ignore the opinions of Korean users.
Do not forget that now Koreans are on the current leaderboard.
I am one of them.
GuruSkippy
Requisition generators costing req instead of power : why not
Doctrine buyable : of course, yes. Every modders are trying to do it, but I highly doubt Relic will do it.
Return old power income per generators in phase 1 : yes. But people will QQ about fast nobz again. Well maybe not, with the new Waaagh tower power cost.
frumpylumps
Babyubyu, why did it take you so much time before you contributed to the balance discussion?
This was needed before the balance changes, in the community update thread.
BlastaT2
Make nobz require 10 min scrap pile for heavy armor + their other upgrades, problem solved.
(normal armor without scrap )
S4ngetsu
Thanks @BaByuByu for supporting my point to remove all doctrines. Move them to upgrades ! They are killing the ballance.
The Ressource system needs also a rework.
I agree with most of your points, except that it''s not the fault of the last patch. Overall the patch was great and elder aren't total trash anymore and orka aren't total op anymore.
The problem with spamming units and getting rewarded for it exists since the 35% refund patch which is completely a joke and way too mutch. Power gens are way to expensive now. Because of this and early game doctrines being too effective the late game is rarely played in 1v1 which is rly sad....
Wargrim
I find it somewhat funny that when i posted my impressions about the patch a while back and talked about the increase in base infantry spam and the resulting boring/onesided gameplay, i got a lot of disagreement. But now pretty much everyone has encountered the all base infantry all the time meta and how repetitive it is, and even the top players that did not post before come out and speak out.
But that is about the only thing that is funny about the situation.
The resource changes were clearly well meant but the result was massively negative. It has not created the problem but made it more severe. The other two main factors are the higher benefits of doctrine stacking vs. distributing doctrines between different units, and the higher benefits of stacking early game elites vs. distributing them throughout early/mid/lategame. There are a lot of minor factors too.
Imho, the immediate reaction should be to revert the resource changes of the last patch. More measures are needed, but that one should at least restore the status quo before the patch in terms of economy and teching, which would allow to punish base infantry spam somewhat by rushing higher tier hard counters as you could before.
EDIT: Oh jea, and the refund HAS to be massively reduced, i absolutely agree. It is mindboglingly overdone. (But then i think the entire escalation phases system is bad and intransparent. As is the huge base income. You should have money from holding points, more money from generators, less from killing objectives, less from refunds, much less from base income. )
Martin
Making all doctrines into upgrades seem like a pretty extreme and fundamental change to the game that could have unforeseen consequences and would need lots of balancing. How about a compromise, let doctrines stay but when you pick one it add's an upgrade for that doctrine that you must research before you can benefit from the doctrine. This would make stacking doctrines especially early game unit's pretty punishing on your tech. Also this could be done differently for different doctrines, since some less useful doctrines like webway holofield would be better off with a lower cost or none, and some would be better with a higher one. All doctrines having to be free and instantly available seems to make them pretty hard to balance.
jambai
They'll highly unlikely remove the doctrine system. Maybe revamping it (more of them, lesser numbers, no additional effects, moving some to unit upgrades etc) perhaps is more realistic.
The infantry spam problems began when they touched the resource system. Some users here suggests further changes. The only sensbile change at this point IMO, is to revert all of them to release state and then re-balance everything from there.
HARRYY
I dont agree on this patch was a mistake or leads into the wrong direction. Balance decisiosn were good, bbbut the ECO changes were an "artificial" attempt to fix a probblem. I think the ECO changes broke some core elements of excitement
IMO
1.
revert power income for ESC-phases back to normal, but keep the "power generator scaling" costs of this patch (1st gen back to 80 req as well).
2 a.
to add diversity: "armories" should be cheaper in power because you anyway pay another 50 power for the upgrade(s). playing for "upgrade-strategies" (rather than spam) should be more viabble.
2b.
the second "attack" and "defense" upgrade in the armories should be also availabbble in Tier 1 already to make "certrain strategies" viabble (long Tier1 w upgrades against teching opponent)
2b
expand upgrades to attack 4 / defense 4 from 3 and 3 (scale accordingly).
balance:
-tweak some slows and stuns for Ork, they stun and slow too much or too long
-macha 75% defense and her phaseshift (the utility is way too much in its current state,but people abroad didnt have the time to notice yet.....)
-SM drop pods could use +1 sec delay
-SM should not be abble to drop in a certain circle around the power core.
-remove the turret ability
-power core +2000 hp
Guys, do you really think they remove doctrines? seriously, they offer so much diversity to this game and you want to ruin it? there are also prettty global doctrines, you dont need to go for units doctrines and spam unit X. its not always viable, its an option and I think relic hit the right spot, because no unit is crazy OP with that, evey unit or doctrine has "its golden age". so you wait for it, or try to take advantage of it, bbubt its never like something is OP throughout the game, from beginning to the end. please cry less. OFC its not perfect.
Wikkyd
Very good post, I think the doctrines should be removed as well and put in as upgrades, obviously this will be hard to balance, but we might as well start trying to balance it instead of not doing anything.
I never really liked the doctrine system but I understand why it was put in, to add diverse play styles and mix up the game. All it really did was make the game very tedious and some doctrines are almost widely used by all players. They're more limiting instead of creating diversity in gameplay.
In both DoW's unit conservation mattered and you could be spammed but there we're many strategies in dealing with spams and rushes. There were many different build orders people could do, in DoW3 it just feels like the only way to win is to spam 1 or 2 units and hold points, the person with the larger army will typically win because there's extremely little one can do to be effective on the defense.
Also unit intimacy is so low compared to the other DoW's, the majority of units could be given upgrades purchasable on the squad, and throwing them at the enemy in an A+move matter was most of the time a bad idea. Here only tacticals have upgrades on their squad as far as I know.
Gorb
I think people need to start considering Doctrines a part of your strategy. Of your build order.
Saying that they're "limiting" and that people only pick a few of them is the same argument that can be applied to researches, addons, whatever you want. That's a balance argument; not a design argument. They don't limit you just because they happen to be Doctrines. They limit you because a) that's the point (just like researches limit you) and b) because of their balance (which can be improved).
Opinion post.
LeemanRuss
modders already done that go see elite mod while Relic sit in their arse doin their job
Wikkyd
I understand your point, but I stand by what I said.
I don't agree that they're as limiting as researches and addons, doctrines force you to play a certain strategy, researches do not. Whats the point of a strategy game if every match I can only dedicate to 1 or 2 different builds, when in the other games I could do a bunch of different builds.
Martin
@LeemanRuss
next time you quote just do this
S4ngetsu
But DoW1 didn't need doctrines and has also diversity
There are several builds viable and in DoW3 1v1 there is only mass T1 viable, that's pretty mutch fact.
And if you know T1 is the most important then you go ofcourse for 100% T1 doctrines.
If relic is not going to remove doctrines ( i believe they won't) they should at least give doctrines a restriction that you can't stack them for 1 single unit.
Wikkyd
I disagree if you see my last post (#20) and my other ones (#17). They "offer" lots of diversity but in practice and actually using choosing doctrines, it limits you to very specific play styles.
Edit1: Changed certain to specific
Edit2: I am an idiot and responded to what I thought was S4ngetsu but was really just Harry. Thought it was part of S4ngetsu's orginal comment
Spooky
I hate to single anyone out here, but it seems like this is a recurring theme. Korean players tend to be very meta heavy thinkers when it comes to RTS. What I mean is that once they have decided, made a choice, that there is a certain build that is the best, is meta, they will do that strategy and that strategy alone. Then they rely on the developer to fix it rather than taking steps against the meta themselves. That seems to be the general consensus among top foreign players in the Starcraft scene at least. With constant balance patches the game has yet to even get settled into a meta I think. Is the game really what's causing this perception or is it in the eye of the beholder? This game is not trying to be an e-sport like in other games. It's trying to be different from those games and if the community can get a firm grasp of that fact then maybe we can go further. This post is not directed only at Korean players btw. My initial observation should be taken on its own and in the context of the title of this thread.
This is a really complicated issue overall so please take my opinions with that in mind. I'm not claiming to have the answers only that I want to work towards understanding the mentality surrounding the issue as it's being portrayed. Again, in my opinion the game needs to settle. I find it really hard to believe that the game is still too unbalanced for players to develop reasonably effective build counters and progress into power tech on a fairly regular basis. It might not even be build counters that we should be focusing on. Large infantry lines is a staple of this game. In that respect, it is always going to have a degree of spam. Opening with 3+ squads of Tacs isn't necessarily a problem. I can't help, but think people still don't know how to play the game as it was intended to be played. If yall like DoW 1 and don't care to learn this new game with the rest of the community then so be it, but if you do then maybe we should stop constantly turning to Relic to solve our problems. With the current economy it should be fine to give up some some points on the map and retreat to a better defensive position in the early game. The economy in DoW 3 is purposefully different from any other RTS. I would go so far as to say that NO ONE really understands the implications of it at this point. Again I think we need to settle into it. Have some patience.
Also, you must realize that just saying spamming is the best doesn't explain much. We need context. Relic needs context. What match-ups? What maps? If both players are spamming in a mirror match-up how is one getting ahead? What is the initial economic investment currently in these spam builds? Bring the conversation here instead of just complaining. We might not all be top players but we do play the game, and some of us do so a lot even if it's not in Korea at the top level. Context is king. I watch streams from all regions, for the gameplay. I really enjoy watching top level play even if I can't understand the language. I see the SM vs SM ridiculous forward base shootout that's going down on at least a few of the maps, but I don't understand entirely why this is happening. Please explain further the nuance of this situation.
Wikkyd
Spamming is the best, actually does explain much. A bunch of people have already stated spamming your basline units are the best way to win. There isn't much context you need there. This is overall, sure there will be some games where the diverse army wins, but most of the games I've played have just had 1 or 2 units in their armies and have had easy times succeeding.
Martin
^^ in addition to explaining things replays are always good.
Spooky
I was speaking under the assumption that spamming is best initially. Why is producing many base infantry a bad thing? As the game progresses players will inevitably need to build more diverse units. When does this divergence happen and why? These are the type of questions we need answered I think.
Wikkyd
It's a bad thing because every race has multiple squads available to them in the beginning of the game, but it's almost always better to just spam your HQ unit or in orks case go for shootas. That's boring and if it's able to beat a diverse army (most of the time) then something is wrong.
Players will not need to build more diverse units, they will need to build better units, right now the second sm can get lascannons in tier 2 those are thrown into the tactical mix, just like wraithguard for eldar, and nobz for orks. With the occasional vehicle thrown in because vehicles are hard to come by in tier 2.
esleg
I beat Korea players all the time.. they are pretty bad or average. They don't respond to criticism well even if you are trying to help them or make them stop losing so much, either because they don't speak your language or they just sit there and lose a lot without any change to their strategy. However, I appreciate their effort sometimes.
I don't think the latest patch actually changed much in the game.
It's just another rant essay of what person X thinks about the game.
I think if player count went down after the patch it's really just placebo effect and players getting bored, not the patch itself.
There's quite a few doctrines and diversity things, but it's obviously not at the level of say AoE2 or older RTS game where you mention you can compensate military for economic bonuses and gain an advantage. This game is a bit simpler than that because the economy part is pretty much pressing 2 buttons.
Overall it's simpler in all aspects but the real analysis we've established (that a lot of people miss and ignore) is that simplicity makes bad players more likely to play; it targets the broader market of nearly 90% who are below average in gaming skill and IQs compared to the above-average and top 1%. You're not really suggesting a 'fix'.. just whining.
I think it's just a unique game that needs to be learned. It doesn't take 1-2 hour games sometimes like AoE2 which is a plus, but overall just lacked content and new civilizations.
Wikkyd
This part was completely unnecessary...
Sure it's another rant, but a lot of us agree with what he says.
esleg
It is necessary in a way where some people delude themselves to say they are great and their opinion is best. Many streamers are terrible at games; so why refer to them about the actual game's balance? However I did take him seriously and consider all his credentials when he talks about the patch/balance, which is higher than a lot of people.
The player counts fluctuate a lot yet at certain times you can find multiple 3v3 games. You can find whole posts where people say their opinion is that the game has been dead, yet the facts say otherwise. A lot of people go on and play a game and then drop off afterwards.
I don't think the last patch effected much but custom maps/mods do seem to work a lot better, and space marines seem a bit worse.
If player X loses as faction Y they claim Y is underpowered about 33% of the time and you have to realize it's a bunch of factors, mainly pointing at the players being pretty bad and hypocritical when talking about 'why X occured when they wanted Y' and so forth. Players think they're good coming from easier games or older DoW games and then find they lose by a small amount and get all pissy about it, blaming the balance/patches. They don't blame "player X is better than them", which is the truth many times in 1v1s, they say the game is bad, patch broke things, etc..
In terms of optimization and actual numbers it seems balanced, give or take a few units, doctrines, and things. Eldar's late game isn't as good as it could be, etc..
Just because you failed at it and don't adapt doesn't mean you just get to 'disagree'.
A lot of the actual things he said were just ranting about nothing. Yes, you do choose to go to Tier 2 earlier or spend a lot of electrical units.. that's kind of the point. As for doctrines, not sure if they are a mistake or not, but you can definitely experiment different things.
If you're a good / true player as you claim then why not just adapt to the patch and play the game you've been playing?