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So occasionally we get new elites and maps. Anyway we could some new line units as well?
3 years ago
Wikkyd
I understand the issue of balance, but it'd be nice to see some new units for the races. Space marines have no heavy armour infantry late game, and that would really help with the lascannon and destructor spam. Eldar have no main battle tank. Orks have no ranged infantry that do normal damage late game.
Opinions on this would be great!
1
Comments
Katitof
The magical word:
Asymmetrical balance.
Not every faction got every tool, but every faction got the means to achieve the same goal, again, just not in the same way as others and that's fine.
SM might not have heavy infantry, but they have best vehicles in game.
Eldar might not have main battle tank, but they have best heavy infantry.
No one has late game infantry with normal damage, so I don't see how that is a point at all, but orks have 50% cheaper vehicles on top of already cheapest vehicles in game, allowing you to spam everything you want.
Katitof
Since DoW1 was clusterf*ck anyway, simply look at DoW2 and their expansion units.
Its only a matter of picking correct units to keep asymmetry and intended advantages/disadvantages and to play to army in game strengths and theme.
For that reason, orks are unlikely to get a very durable vehicle, Eldar are very unlikely to get anything that will be able to stand up to its counterpart in 1v1 and SM are unlikely to get any transport or mobile reinforcement, maaaaybe except potential land raider elite for very late game.
Psycholord
i don't think they will release new units like these new elites, m8. Sorry for that. If they do add this way, it signals they are not working on a expansion, i believe.
vindicarex
If previous Dawn of War expansions are anything to go by - we will get new units with expansion.
salvasc
I think they will add line units in the expansions ... maybe 1 per race, plus some new elites.
IntoTheRainbow
They will surely add at least 1 new standard unit per race with the first expansion. Should be glorious; full Necron roster with 3 new units for rest of races plus more doctrines. If they add Necrons with Chaos at the same time, I'll be in total heaven
tritol
Just a random thought that crossed my mind long time ago before even beta was out .. I was thinking about combination of CaC4, DoW2 and elites+doctrines ...
How about you could choose regular line units in similar way you can pick elites and doctrines? Before getting into game you could pick which unit you want for certain roles, you could choose T0 units, anti vehicles units, skimmers, late game units etc.
Want anti infantry units? You could either pick nades, flamers or heavy bolters. Need to take down vehicles? You can either take las canons or rocket launcher, you will lose bonus damage to skimmer but you will deal more damage per hit without need to charge up. You could pick ASM with chainswords or maybe slower power fists with aoe dmg, but you cant upgrade them with power swords.
You get what I meant .. back then I was thinking about squad loadouts like in previous DoW and stuff so heres where it got me ... just random stuff ..
and before you say it people are just picking only the most op doctrines anyway so they would choose only the most op units too so who cares ... meta ...
CANNED_F3TUS
Yeah. SMs heavy armor options are dread naught and Termies. Have to agree with kat. No race should have the exact same tools or else people would get bored.
Imo the faction rosters are pretty fleshed out and solid. They have almost everything covered.
Relic wont just add a unit to the roster if the race doesnt need it. Only when it clearly shows that a faction has less options. Or weaknesses against certain line ups.
Eldar have battle tank its fire prism,
Orks have a unit that deals normal damage. Shoota boy. No need for a late game unit thats just gonna do exactly the same.
Psycholord
Yeah, we don't want DoW3 to be DoW units clusterfuck.
S4ngetsu
DoW1 was a clusterfuck @Katitof are you kidding me ?
DoW1 is way better than DoW3. Playerbase proves it.
DoW3 has potential to BECOME better than DoW1, but thats still a long journey.
Katitof
// removed reply to delete post - Gorb //
Tau and Necrons were unique due to how they work overall.
All other factions were pretty much copies of each other with some gimmicks behind them.
For example, adding "flayer" fighter unit to every faction blurred asymmetry of factions, all factions that were not Tau and Necrons had pretty much the same units and weapon options with different flavor.
Also stop yapping about DoW1 playerbase compared to DoW3.
DoW1 was released at peak popularity of RTS genre and was unique entry to it.
DoW3 was released at decline of the genre thanks to emergence of MOBA genre, which sucked away ALL casual players, who previously played RTS games.
The ONLY RTS games that are doing OK now are:
SC2, because of sheer amount of marketing(for example: ALL koreans who had 12month WoW sub got it for free around release).
AoE2 "HD" remake, because its leeching on nostalgia.
CoH2, because its the best WW2 RTS which also happens to be the best looking one.
Get some insight on how game trends work before you start screaming about popularity and playerbase.
You're also comparing a game with 14 years of establishment, expansions and mods vs one that was barely released.
S4ngetsu
I scream ? Who started this stupid conversation about clusterfuck ? huh ?!
Don't call DoW1 a clusterfuck when it's CLEARLY the better game.
You started to compare those games in the first place. Please read your own comments before you shittalk me.
Also the fact that DoW1 is 14 years old ( probably older than you ) and still has a higher average playerbase than DoW3 that was just released and considering that computergames are way more popular today than they were in the past it's pure logic that DoW3 has failed hard and is not as good as DoW1.
Draconix
Maybe its because, that he still believes in Dow3's true potential, while on other hand you don't?
Gorb
Can everybody tone down the language, please. You can make points without attacking each other, calling each other delusional, or otherwise suggest that the poster is not from this reality.
Also, and this really shouldn't have to be said, but please don't state that the developers deserve to die a fiery death. Posts deleted.
Moderator Post
IntoTheRainbow
DoW1 did end up a clusterfuck of units after the expansions, he's right. It is almost impossible to balance the amount of races and units DoW1 ended up having. There will be several combinations of races who will be too strong/weak against the other.
By comparison this game feels infinitely more balanced, but then again we have only 3 races of course
Don't forget that when people think of DoW1 they are actually talking about DoW1 plus several expansions + updates over several years. Hardly fair comparing all that large amount of content, iterated upon over several years, to the vanilla DoW3 experience that has been around for 7 months.
S4ngetsu
If you say it like this then it's kind of true but we allready have this problem even with 3 races so it doesn't really matter if DoW1 had less races.
Sm counters Eldar, Eldar counters Ork, Ork counters SM. DoW3 confirmed a clusterfuck as well ?
Thats right. Still calling DoW1 a clusterfuck even so it's defenitely the better game (with all the expansions) is wrong.
CANNED_F3TUS
Think he is talking about how the game plays UA is a clusterfuck of a mod cause half the time its just A move watch 2 giant armies become a big mess and thats it. Its designed to be that way and people like it. Just huge battles where you cant tell whats going on. Not a big deal. Also than there is the huge amount of units races and other stuff to consider.
Also you cant really compare a heavily modified game over a game that just released nowadays. DoW 1 clearly has more content and a established fanbase. Ofcourse DoW is going to better. People used the same ++heresy redacted++ argument to DoW 2. But it was a ++heresy redacted++ argument.
For a fair comparison you would have to compare DoW 1 (the very first DoW with only 4 races no mods bog standard to DoW 3. But nobody is going to make that argument because DoW 3 is clearly ahead if you do ot that way.
Stoner
^ I don't think anyone mentioned UA here. If we go into comparisons, DOW I had most basic features, better graphic options (not like some cheap console port) and really now, comparing game coming with 4 races vs. game that came with 3 and both had broken balance on launch in pretty much the same way... Most mindbogging thing here is that after years of experience in development, we get inferior product in all aspects. Nobody asked for 10 races on release, but at least 4 to keep up the standard? Some stuff like observer which is pretty much everywhere in these kinds of games, is that really so much to ask? It's no brainer that with each new DOW, it was just bigger and bigger decline in quality, when by logic it should've been absolute reverse.
CANNED_F3TUS
No. Nobody mentioned UA. But it happens alot. Alot of people do infact compare The entirety of DoW plus expansions with DoW 3 happens all the time.
You are right alot of basic features are missing. Especially those that can br crucial to maintain a decent following like observer, bindable keys yadda yadda yadda. But i wouldnt say that DoW 3 is completely inferior.
Ofcourse DoW 3 had broken balance on launch thats every RTS game starting out..
Gorb
vDoW has very basic graphical options. It has zero AA support. DoW III options are definitely superior.
I understand this desire to romanticise the past, but it doesn't make for an accurate portrayal of the past. If you want a technical discussion on why new games don't automatically launch with all the features of previous games, on previous engines, using older technologies, I'd be happy to discuss it.
Opinion post.
jonoliveira12
DoW1 does have too much redundancy in unit choices, and it gets worse with mods. SM, CSM, and SoB play exactly the same until lategame, and even then, the differences are minimal.
Dark Eldar feels like a vehicle specialized subfaction of Eldar. Necrons only realistically need Necron Warrior spam, and Tomb Spiders, along with early Necron Lord to win. Tau can get away with just massing Stealth Suits, which get an anti-everything weapon upgrade, are permanently stealth, and get so much stacked upgrades with the Mon'Ka doctrine building; that the only other units you should build, are builder drones, and the OP Daemon Armour Krootox.
S4ngetsu
SM, CSM, and SoB are not played the same way at all man. The feel all unique and all of them make DoW1 great. Those races all have different builds and strategies. Did you play the game at all ??? I was among the best DoW1 players before I left the game and the only race that felt really bad and unnecessary to me was Dark Eldar. All other races were super unique.
jonoliveira12
I did, they all have a tactical all-rounder unit that can recieve the same basic wargear upgrades, they all have an assault unit that jumps into melee, they all have a weaponless transport unit, and they all have a strong melee walker at the same tier (t2).
They are just reskins of the same base faction, with some lategame differences.
Katitof
They have different "faction mechanics".
The one actual difference they share is SoB got "ranged" jump troops instead of melee, everything else DOES feel like a reskin with 1-2 different upgrades, like meltas instead of rocket launchers or plasmas.
Psycholord
I'm actually starting to believe that people like 2-3 units who does exactly the same thing, with the same functions, but want variety so they can choose to use what they think is the coolest one.
The doctrine system, contrary to popular belief, encourajes you to use especific units on your playstyle which, by nature, grants many possible army compositions for each race. And might i add, much more effective than what DoW1 did by just adding missing units randomly with each expansion.
Don't get me wrong, i love DoW1. I'm just stating a fact.
CANNED_F3TUS
And drops the mic xD