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Eldar vs SM
Auni
Hello.
I won't blame now the balance situation, all decent player know it anyway.
So what to do against SM player with infantrie 3/3 laserdevs and espacialy Vehicle drops?
Complete tier2 tech seems to me pretty useless.
I really try alot, but espaicly deathstorm drops near your shieldgen , and dread drops are insane in this matchup.
I play all races, and as SM or Ork i start building laserdevs or tankbuster for my req , and power goes into vehicle drops (sm) .
As ork player you invest in killacans,
All this units got a really decent range!
Eldar has here a little problem.
Dark reaper deal Truedmg + splash, so they are decent against infantrie, but against single vehicle drops not really good!
Shadowspectres are in generall pretty nice against vehicles, the problem is, the range!
Cause this shadowspectres get countered by Devs and ofcourse laserdevs also!
Falcon is not really good anymore against sm player, cause a SM player need 200 power to counter your falcon, and you have to invest about 500 power for a falcon!
If only 2 laserdevs are on the field/fight, you cant go in with your falcon.
Laserdevs auto prio vehicles as i know. So as soon you enter the battlefield, laserdevs with a range (fullscreen) will kill you instantly.
The powercosts are not worth at all!
Wraithguard? they are so slow, also relativ expensiv!
Also they are extremly shitty against infantrie , cause attackspeed!
Ofcourse there is a doktrin, who give wraithguard the ability to deal decent dmg against infantrie.
The problem is, you get only 3 shots out, and then you got 90-120(?) cooldown.
Also SM player today build in generall infantrie + infantrie upgrades and only a few drops (dreads and deathstorm )
Also they are so slow.
IN a decent number they are fine, also with the upgrade against infantrie, but this is not POSSIBLE in a 1vs1 game.
atleast on a higher lvl,
Wraithblades are slow like turtles, they got a decent HP pool and also dmg.
The issue is the movementspeed, and even with Speedgate, they are way to slow!
Also Dev's slow down wraithblades, and also loota with scrap will slow down wraithblades!
"chargeability" is "okay" but still against a guy with laserdev spam you are not able to build wraithblades .
Also they are very vulnerable to CC , and this is also a issue against SM!
Scouts granate and Gabriel ;/ , and in the end Wraithblades are tier3, and come relativ late!
I try allready to play also only infantrie + upgrades.
I got with this "strategie" a good option for map control, and i go for shadowspectres relativ fast, like against Ork (nobz rush) .
Still i strugle even with full infantrie against SM Espacialy if terminators are on the field.
Or better to say, if terminators + devspam is on the field you have NOTHING as Eldar player to engage this.
But honestly, no race has something against this.
Orks has the best "cards" cause of truck/nobz combo + weirdboy.
I was trying also quickstrike on banshee's, but you basicly CAN'T engage if there is atleast 2 devs or more!
Before you are in range to use quickstrike to this dev, you will loose all shields even with upgrades! and mostly models too!
And if a Droppod comes in this time or even 2 , you are fucked!
The only tech unit for eldar is Fireprism.
And only cause of his Range.
basicly the same thing like Big truck, while Big truck is way better in my opinion with scrap skill and doktrin!
I wrote it allready, i play all races.
And if i play SM against Eldar, my opponents are also fucked against Deathstorm drops, or something like that!
Espacialy scoutspam into deathstormdrop with 2,3,4 elite build.
Its insane how strong this is against eldar!
I really miss a heavyweapon team for eldar, against heavy armor!
i guess the design idea was, to play first with infantrie , cause reaper is aviable on tier 1 and deal true dmg.
Also you are able to build shadowspectres.
THis 2 units are pretty nice against early vehicle rushes!
Later on, they are bad against vehicles , and maybe the plan was to give eldar a little bit later a weaponteam against heavy armor.
Wraithguard!
I mean okay, against SM no race build vehicles mostly.
Only ork with early truck/nobz, and later
Killa cans and Big trucks.
BUt here again same prinzip as Fireprism.
Killacans and Big trucks are only viable cause of there range!
If they would be forced to go into laser dev range like a Wraithblade/guard/falcon they would be not aviable!
So what to do as Eldar now ?
And i don't think the patch will help us alot.
Cause the idea from relic about the Deathstormdrop will kill eldar instantly against sm's!
they are basicly not able to defend this, its now allready relativ hard.
But if a SM player is able to reinforce!!! near your shieldbubble (LOOOL) what you should do then?
ah short thing about fireprism.
If your opponent goes for paladin and he is able to delay the game until he is alaive!
Fireprisma are also not aviable anymore!!
Cause the paladin will nuke with his Long rocket (i think he need 2 for fireprisma) .
So basicly , if a SM player has paladin on the field, a Eldarplayer get money and power.
But he will be NEVER able to build something to counter his army.-(lol?)
Also watchout to Jin's strategie with Terminator rush .
Terminator is also heavy armor, and deal dmg to Light armor(ranged)
SO what the hell you should build to counter this Unit?
espacialy with some devs near of it.
And remember , aslong you fight with terminator ,he get stacks and he is able to nuke your shieldgen or tower with 1 SKill (eskalation phase 2)
Basicly its again a "vehicle" and you got not a real counter to it.
Wraithguard again, get just countered by a single ASM.
You are nto able to get 2-3 wraithguards out in this time, the powerincome is just to low its not possible!
Also you need some infantrie upgrades, otherwise you die anyway.
Cuase your opponent (sm) will have atleast 1/1 at this time!
Comments
Bakapi
Use Macha + rohnan + Wraith lord elites , early game use ranger +rohnan to counter dev and laser dev team ,when SM reach tier 2 and use dreadstorm + dreadnought drop use wraith lord to protect your wraith guard and reaper, teleport your ranger and rohnan to deal with his dev team . Late game when sm use paladin ,you must use crown control and supprise strategy to deal with paladin , save your rohnan "long shot" for stun paladin and Macha static to take him out of combat , use ranger teleport to get behind your enemy and teleport your web gate way to that location , connect your portal to that gateway , move your wraith blades to get behind enemy and then charge to paladin . Always keep your wraithlord in your back to guard your tanks and wraithguads from drop pop !
Player_22
Lots of info here for you Relic, hope you take advantage of this from high level 1v1 player.
Time to even up the races Relic.
0riginal_z0M
I recently started playing Eldar more, usually its fine but every now and again I get caught by an early mass of tactical marines with flamers.. the whole.. In/out tactics are out the the window because youre instantly slowed and shields gone and all dead before a plasma grenade even lands.. I suppose you can turn your whole strategy to rangers but I mean.. you really dont have any push. and it costs way to much to get a strong enough force.
I feel like this is almost an instant win? almost like we need heavy armour Fire Dragons that dont lose all shields instantly.
Yes you can say things like spread your squads out, use this, use that. But its not like you're playing AI, what if the tactical marines have nades too?
What can you do? If anyone can suggest methods of countering SM in this and other examples... I have tried a Banshee build and on occasion it works but you know.. 18% success rate?
What if Flamers and Plasma guns were T2? I dont think that would shift balance too much just stop you being pinned to your turrets until T2, by which point your wayyyyy behind on all resource and fighting a losing battle!
Maybe I'm just not good enough yet haha
Lude
As much as I'd like to tell you all to L2P, the game is in a pretty terrible state of unbalance and Eldar is the weakest faction by a wide margin, and Space Marines are by far the strongest; a highly skilled SM player will beat a highly skilled Eldar player 80% or more of the time. SM faction mechanics are by far the strongest in the game, and have no attached resource cost; meanwhile they also have some of the strongest units and weapons in the game that have very little counterplay; namely Deathstorms, Flamers, and Las. Meanwhile, Eldar have few affordable/viable responses to even many of SM's line units; Reapers are far weaker than Bolters against infantry, their cloaked/scout unit costs a lot of power and requires an upgrade, and the same applies to Shadow Spectres, who are difficult to get out early enough in the game even to counter a single Dreadnought drop without hampering the rest of your army, which would force you to build Wraiths that get decimated by the aforementioned Las. I'm not going to go in to any further detail about Eldar's weaknesses, because you will know them just by playing. Every SM player I play with tells me that their faction is the easiest to play, and that after the Ork nerfs they will be the strongest by far. In the hands of good players, SM are almost unstoppable, which is why the most competitive players of this game play SM and will do so in greater numbers after the Ork nerf. Playing Eldar is essentially a losing game until you have a lot of practice with them.
One can only play Eldar knowing these facts, and knowing that in order to win with them, you need several factors on your side:
You must be a better player than your opponent, with better knowledge of the game, and knowledge of his own units. You will know that a Tac squad can pop up with a flamer in the first 3 minutes of the game, etc. etc. In order to avoid getting wiped by an early flamer, you need to know that your opponent will do it, and because the flamer ability initiates immediately you have to know that your opponent will do it before he does, if you want to micro out / CC it, otherwise you will just have to keep away from him. This applies to all AoE nukes as well as other abilities
Your micro HAS to be perfect. This takes hundreds of hours of practice, because mis-micro as Eldar is punished extremely hard. This is because Eldar are reliant entirely on their Elites to perform small miracles for them, punishing the inferior micro of your opponent who underestimates them.
Against Flamers in particular, the strongest strat for an Eldar is sniping with Rangers and Ronahn; your aim is to bleed the flamer squad as much as possible, remembering that a Flamer squad at full health can simply charge towards you and flame while a squad with only 3 members will probably retreat for fear of losing the rest of the squad. It also costs 2 power every time you bleed a Flamer squad member, 3 if you bleed a Plasma squad, and 2 for Assault squads as well, allowing you to punish the decision to invest power in to a flamer as hard as possible, while using Ronahn's command doctrine to teleport to a safe distance if he attempts to approach. Attacking a Flamer squad with Dire Avengers is an act of desperation, so I don't recommend it.
Sniping requires giving up some territory, and is pretty bad at defending against a shield gen push, but it is the only option that isn't reliant on superior micro i.e. being more skilled than your opponent, which you can't guarantee. I don't play 1v1 for balance reasons, as I would simply not enjoy playing Eldar; if you really like playing Eldar I suggest getting some team mates and running 3v3s and 2v2s to gain experience with the race until the meta becomes more fun!
0riginal_z0M
Entirely the problems I'm having and yeah, few good examples of counters but they're all IF's, Say you do go with rangers, get the good counter in on the first battle, think It's going well then bam.. theres an an ASM squads flying around and you're screwed
Maybe Dire avengers need a damage buff while shields are 80%+? Make them more dangerous compensating for how easily they can be picked of if the shield breaks... almost so SM & Ork players will know that yes if you do rush them you can take them out but you WILL take losses as opposed to practically not even being phased by 3 full squads.
Good to know this is a known thing and things are being done to help us out! Right?
Lude
In 3v3 games I open with Rangers + Banshees if I'm against SM players with flamers, this way I can use the teleport for my rangers to keep them away from flamers while screening off their approach with the blinding/silencing scream while bleeding models. With 3 ranger squads or 2 + Ronahn you can alpha squad member from a flamer squad, and SM players are pretty sensitive about preserving their flamers so losing a single squad member usually causes a retreat.
The other obvious counter to Rangers that your opponent WILL try to use is to bait you to fire at them before getting a surprise scout stun before flaming, so keep workers around.
If I force the SM player to bring out assault marines (which he will probably do anyway to harass resources) then I can teleport away and bleed the squad, or mob them with some Banshee squads. This is my opener in most 3v3 games against SMs but afaik is not the meta in 1v1 at all. The main reason I don't play 1v1 is because 2 point elites are ubiquitous and I don't enjoy using Scorpions very much, and am kind of attached to the elite setup I use for 3v3! (Macha/Ronahn/Warp Spiders)
esleg
Not necessarily true. You just can't play defensively against a sauce marine player. ALWAYS offensive, ALWAYS try to make casualties. Play to the advantage of having shields and rush early like Eldar are supposed to do, and then continually harass. If not, take the whole map and get some extra resources coming in. Space marine squads don't have shields or if they do, it's temporary. They get weaker and also have to spend quite a lot on reinforcing if their units die. Orks/SM are simply considered easier because most players aren't very aggressive and aren't that skilled by nature so thus their tanky ++heresy redacted++ usually wins out in the long run. They're competitive but I haven't had too much trouble breaking the willpower of an overly tryhard space marine player.
0riginal_z0M
You're always going to have problems though I guess.. depends how good your opponent is. There is no distinct easy win with Eldar, with SM and Ork there isnt either but, you have an easier time vs an eldar I feel.
DivineEvil
Eldar are in general very weak compared to SM. Its a constant struggle to keep pressure from the distance without engaging directly. As soon as you're directly attacked or seriously intercepted, your units are brittle toys, that shatter from the sheer amount of shields, crowd control and AoE of SM. You're handicapped by the necessity to build webway gates to gain your primary global, while SM get both drop-pods and a standard for free. Whenever those are used in conjuction, there's no point to try and defend a position - you have to run away, move your buildings and find another place to sabotage or backstab from, otherwise you're out-tanked, out-controlled and overpowered. None of the Eldar units excel at anything and many of them are composition of silly features and pathetic abilities, which make them inherently unreliable. Their strong sides have very narrow window of use, and their weak sides make them very easy to being countered.
Both SM and Orks easily counter range and speed with crowd-control and AoE burst. Overall, Eldar do not feel as a faction, that can stand a fight on their own, but rahter one, that is a support in map control, harassment and sabotage, which other factions do not bother with.
Spirit
Maybe soon orks will become a support race too. At the moment they are the strongest race due to their waaghh buff, they can engage almost any fight they want while their units are buffed. I agree eldar are a hit and run race, they cannot really take longer fights as their units are just not made for longer engagements, especially if you got no webgate you dont even need to bother to take larger engagements. Quick and hard strikes you can try to do and then bail out. Sm on the other hand is the total opposite, they have enough health, shields and the ability to drop in forces and elites directly into the battlefield or right ontop of the objectives.
As sm you want to take bigger fights, you can have deathstorms on the bank, artillery in t2 in the back or other vehicles, infantry, the standard or elites ready to drop in to back up your forces.
Bakapi
No matter how good early game i control the map , when the match go to late , i can't stand again sm , especially predator detructor and anhilator , that 2 unit is so strong , they had over 3000 , 4000 health units whit super damg when eldar just have very fragile units , predator has nearly 4000 health when fire prism and falcon just have 1000 shield and 800 health , compare predator with range doctrine , they beat fire prism and falcon like nothing , they move faster than wraith guards , hit harder with their attack speed , and has more range with doctrine , and eldar super elites......wraith knights or i can call them paper knights ,has total hitpoints 6500 and 7500( and complete no range weapon) compare to sm super saiyan god 10000 11000 hitpoints with super range and damage . Eldar keep running and running and running from fight again sm until there is no place for eldar to run
Spirit
Falcons are anti infantry vehicles, you cannot expect that they can compete vs a t3 tank. Fire prisms are more an artillery unit than a tank, so you need to keep them constantly in the back, maybe try to use its teleport doctrin if you really like them.
esleg
I take that back, after the balance patches applied a few days ago, Eldar are even worse than before. They buffed useless ++heresy redacted++ no one uses like fragile Vypers, Wraithlord, and decreased energy income earlier which means the typical opener of being able to get out a grav tank/wraith unit earlier is completely diminished. My ability to be dominant as Eldar is completely worse now than it was before.. not even worth trying because it's just a guaranteed loss unless your opponent is really terrible. The supposed counter units are terrible and the idea you have to run away doesn't work at all especially when Orks/Marines are still getting some general buffs and have way better assault units. I even lost my first 1v1 in months vs a ++heresy redacted++ who only spammed tactical marines pretty much after the update and many 3v3s; don't think it has to do with my skill or awareness at this point. Space Marines is my new home unfortunately..
They really need to at least try something like:
Bakapi
Yes all eldar doctrine are speed up and teleport , for running . They keep push forward your base and we keep running , that the eldar faction designs , run and run and run over and over again from any fight just because u can't stand again anything except scout ( oh with stun greade you will.....)
Thunderhost
@Bakapi Well, you can win in other ways than head-on fights..
0riginal_z0M
We need the Harlequins back to balance out Eldars inability to go toe to toe with opponents, as an elite crowd control/assassin unit for 5 or 6 elite points able to get into enemy lines and disrupt them enough for Eldar to use Guerrilla warfare effectively
Bakapi
Yeah hit and run design is good and that is the role of eldar race , ofc i can win with hit and run but for now , with unbalanced weak eldar and strong sm , i need 6 hand to micro macro my army while sm player play by one hand and A move his army to my base
Shabrak
I'm afraid the problem is relic do not know how to play their own game. And they don't want to know. Don't you see? All "balance" patch only unbalance the game. They won't fix flamers or lasdevs cause their balance designers thinks that all ok with the flamers and lasdevs. Sad but true.
Martin
Shabrak you should not make jokes with so few posts, people will think you completely missed the fact that both flamers and lasdevs received a nerf this patch.
esleg
SM is vastly better when used optimally.. on top of everything, with best elites and strats, they have PODS and BANNER.
Dire Avengers are only the weakest because of that stupid cooldown.. if they completely remove the shoot cooldown or change it to half the time then it would make them a worthwhile shooter spam unit like the other factions. They are weak and never valuable, unlike TACS or SHOOTER BOY spams. It would make Dire Avengers fearsome like they are supposed to be.
Banshees are the only 'generic melee' that cost power, which is terribad since Eldar need to transition faster to win (underpowered in almost everything etc.)
They also are almost never worth it. ASM are worth creating from time to time at any time (take cover bubbles, chase units, jump straight to bolters, etc), but Banshees only in Tier1 for a melee counter or something. Orks can use Truk. Banshees don't even counter the Bolters they are supposed to. Quick Strike needs power/req and time to get, but it should probably be free considering they don't get anything else.
Shadow Spectres can be hard to stop but only if you spam like 10 of them. Their usage seems a bit stupid if you waste power on them and not on walkers/vehicles.
Reapers are their best generic unit that can generally deal damage to structures, vehicles, and units, but they have seemingly the widest hitbox range and lose vs any other unit. They are literally the biggest and shiniest melee target in the game and yet the only formidable defensive thing an Eldar army can really use. Even bad players immediately stun/ them even if they don't usually do ++heresy redacted++ against bolters/looter type units.
Generically all their line infantry is horrible, except Rangers. Plus you will lose every time vs an Ork or SM player that just turtles a few minutes and knows how to respond by stunning up your rangers. They can literally tank and push anything even if you run away sniping them. (At least, that is what I do, and it works every time.)
Structures themselves like Wraith/Vehicle ones cost so much energy it just delays getting your first powerful unit out. Pretty sure those power costs should be half (AT LEAST).
It's almost like devs think eldar 'get more energy' but rather they 'need more energy' to transition to those other unit trees since they are always behind.
WraithGuard are meant to be a pretty insane unit but their melee is laughable and they die in one hit to most things. Even Nobz are miles better than WraithGuards.. the tanks/units they are meant to counter all defeat them easily most times.
Tier2 seems useless as ++heresy redacted++ especially in 3v3s.. Want to risk that 50/50 of waiting for a Falcon and losing it in 1 second, or being largely successful with it? Nah.. Already explained Wraithguards, who can lose vs a servitor. Tier3, wait even longer being defenseless, and get the wraithblades or the sniper tank thing.
Summary:
Eldar are that faction you play against in the campaign because they're weak and defeatable.
The only way you can win is skill differences pretty much, but an SM player who is average might even beat an Eldar player who is pretty amazing if he plays RTS games.
They actually have a window of rush strength but only lasts like 3 minutes, only works in 1v1 etc.
They have some strong points but largely can't contend with the fact 3v3s need some kind of 'area holding' unit (other than just warp spiders if you choose to use them) and you can't concede the area so easily.
Their line infantry aren't even worth spamming. For SM/ORKS, it's always useful to keep spamming something like Shooters, Rockets, Bolters, Lascannons, or any generic counter. For Eldar, you just spam cannon fodder that dies constantly.
Decreasing price or tweaking mechanics of their units would make them a much more formidable choice. (Up to you, but there's many changes to be made).
All that said, they have some great abilities that can snipe off and render other factions useless too, but they need 'a bit of tweaking'.
esleg
Titguards at work:
AlienHack
guys, i just tried the last patch .and lost 4 games in a row. the extra health in SM infantry has made them almost invincible to early eldar infantry, i just cant manage to kill eny units early game so the SM just turtles until mid game and just unleashes a blob of infantry and just kills everyhing, dark reapers now cant manage to deal enough damage to kill tacts...
any solutions?:
Auni
Yeah @AlienHack
I have the same problem, espacialy against the current meta since (ever?) with just tac spam and early elites.
Reloadmechanic and the lack of a real weaponteam is a real problem for eldar against heavy spam t1 from spacemarine!
Basicly cause the space marine secure with this strategie atleast 2 more req generators.
i posted here a solution in my opinion https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/15114/eldar-simple-fix#latest