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Vindicare X ELdar replay - convertation
AlienHack
Hallo guys
2 days ago i made a thread saying that while i was an eldar player pre patch with good win percentage , after patch i had issues against SM. this +30% health they got made them too hard for early eldar infantry to manage to kill them in time. so SM players just get momentum and in 6-7 mins in game they have many many tacticals moving as a blob and killing everything.
today i saw this replay . as far as i know its post patch. and a top tier eldar player (vindicarex goes against a top SM player)
the match is over in just 8 mins as you can clearly see from the beginning that nomater what eldar player does dire avenger clearly can not cope with tacticals.
I DONT WANT A FLAMING WAR to start. i just state what my opinion is and want to see other players say if the see it too or i am mistaken.
i personally lost 8 games in a row post patch while pre patch i have 60-70% win ratio. i had to change to SM post patch and get a nice 70+%win ratio especially against eldar.
i dont care about leaderboards. or winning losing . i just say the numbers so you have some idea .
i just want to have fun in the game. losing or wining. but currently i see no fun in playin eldar as against SM it seems its always a =n early loss
Comments
Guziol
I have faced so a bunch of stacked-tac spam with KT and dio setups and i lost most of them. If not imbalanced then it's very frustrating to play against to say the least. Only thing i could ever do to come close seemed like DA spam of my own. Everytime i tried more combined arms it felt flat on it's ++heresy redacted++. I also really don't want to run 2-3-4 elites to stay competetive with the enemy but i just can't deal with this early agression otherwise.
oneproduct
Not sure if that video is the best demonstration of it or not. Vindicare made two LPs in the early game and the SM made none, so he was down in requisition and in most of the engagements the TACs outnumbered the dire avengers 3 to 2 or even 4 to 2.
Vindicare had the right idea with trying to do some hit and run along the right side of the map to hit unprotected nodes, but killteam call in stopped the harass. It's another topic, but I kind of don't like how elites/drop pods can just drop in to stop harassment like that. Might be nicer if elites had to spawn at your HQ.
Can't say you are or aren't right just from watching this though. I'd like to see more equivalent amounts of resources put into a fight against each other.
It's probably a bigger problem in DoW3 than DoW2 though, where at least if you blobbed infantry, there was a natural counter in suppression weapons and not having enough cover for everyone, so that a few defenders in cover could deal with large infantry pushes a bit better. Vindicare used his shield at one point, but having only one piece of cover so deep in your territory isn't enough.
AlienHack
pre patch it was ok. you could win a fight with 3 dire avengers against 2 tacts, using the grenades you could kill them
post patch even 3v3 units or even 4 DA vs 3 tacts and you lose... the extra 30% health buff to the tacts makes them very hard for eldar early units to kill.
even dark reapers have a hard time killing tacts (and assault marines ) . these units had great health already so the buff made them even tankier. in early game where you have to kill at least 1-2 of your oponents units to take the advantage now its impossible against tacts. they always survive the fight. DA and shootas just cant damage them enough
IntoTheRainbow
Interesting. Watching now and will give my thoughts.
EDIT:
First thing I noticed is that the SM player went all out for an early game win by his elite + doctrine loadout. He chose all 3 doctrines to buff his Tactical Marines and he's got KillTeam elite added to this selection versus Vindicare X Eldar's single Dire Avenger doctrine buff + Ronahn.
This puts him at a disadvantage off the bat but it's compounded by some mistakes. Why did he throw away resources by building elite point gens on his own and enemy elite nodes? Then he built Listening Posts on both nodes when he maybe should have built a couple more squads of DA because at this point he must have known the SM player was going for an early win.
It's small margins though - had he chose Macha instead of Ronahn he would have been able to deal with those blobs of TMs better.
VindicareX is probably a vastly superior player to me though but it's easy to analyse mistakes from the comfort of your sofa outside the tension and heat of a live battle!
AlienHack
lol i agree! ronin is the weakest elite. i never use him . nevertheless the issue is elsewhere. even scorpions cant change anything. by the time you have scorpions he has ironclad so again it comes down to simple infantry .
today i won 2-3 matches against orc. even orcs have issues with tacticals now. its easier for orcs to kill them though (than eldar) because they have chopas that can tie tacts . but nevertheless i managed to kill 2-3 choppas and 1 shootas with 2 tacts and i assault. anyways... a good orc player can survive against SM
eldar have the problem. i dont know maybe lowering their weapons cool off time could help... just an idea
Stoner
No need to take this particular replay seriously. Obviously Vindi have been playing far off meta, as he tends to, and Firestone is pretty good player too. Vindi was outnumbered heavily from the beginning, and Ronni is situational Elite best for harassment, you can't push with him. If he had Ronni+Macha he could pull it off. Plus he was investing too heavily into Elite points/LPs, so after loosing such investments, there's no point to continue.
From my personal experience with Eldar lately, I met some interesting, and kinda newish Meta: DA+Rangers. It isn't exactly OP but is VERY annoying and literally hard counters SM Tac spam meta. If you invest heavily in Rangers and keep around 2-3 DA's for nades and as bait, 3-4 Rangers can brutally bleed SM, and it is very hard to catch and kill them as you usually can't have vision far enough to drop pod them. It sure requires certain amount of micro and very particular hit & run playstyle, but is worth it and not so hard to pull off.
AlienHack
stoner i agree. the only eldar player that managed to beat me post patch used a crazy ranger spam . they would slaughter my tacts.
but for me thats not healthy gameplay. to push eldar player to only use rangers in numbers against SM. thats really not healthy. dire avengers should be able to at least keep up with tacts if they are more. right now you need double the number of the tacts to be efficient. the weapon cooldown doesnt help either.
also have in mind that the game is not only the first 5 mins. i mean in the beginning some players (including me and also vindi in this replay) we like to prepare for midgame. by building some control points and pushing our resources. now we cant spend any money building generators or req because we have to keep making infantry units just to slow down the tacts. it actually destroys the whole flow of the game for an eldar player. he has to stay tier 1 more where he is more weak (eldar have the weakest early infantry) .
i still want to see more eldar replays to check how other players are doing. but for me making eldar players start spamming rangers is not a good and healthy thing.
Stoner
I agree with you too, and I gotta point out that Tac spam is VERY unhealthy as well. Other units don't cut it, same as previous DA spam is unhealthy too, and sadly that's how game is played for the long time already: single unit spam with rare mixup plus 2-3-3/5 Elites and there's no way around it...
AlienHack
i just played a game vs an orc. it was magnificent. botn of us used ALL kind of units from early on to late game. there were 3-4 big battles for the map where it was just plasure to see all these different units (on both sides) working together for the win
i managed to prevail but it waqs close twice/ it could go both ways. these games make me love dow 3 . seeing the game played as it was meant to .
but then you play against players that single spam and it destroys the jay. maybe you manage to kill their spam and win but the joy of the game is lost.
thats why i think the game shouldnt give solutions that lead you to spamming
AlienHack
just saw this one going up
the eldar player is one of the best there is. and bewbew as SM also
ok so just look at the first 10 mins. eldar loses ALL the fights. he loses all map control and if you are not the best eldar player or at least top 10 you will lose. thats exactly what hapens to me. exactly that . i cant win a fight vs early tacts . so slowly i lose map control so i cant survive economicaly and go tier 2
even the voiceover mentions that this 30% boost makes tacts too tanky early on.
also dont forget that SM have also the standard to gain extra shield AND drop pods to harass your units... eldar have...fleet of foot to run fast to retreat lol
at this replay the eldar almost lost a shield gen at 4:30...
regardless that he was so good as to survive to late game. he was chocked early game. i would surely have lost from minute 7
he managed to survive 40 mins but never managed to get map control or enough resources to stand a fight.
vindicarex
If there was no forward-base for those Tacticals to reinforce at - they would be functioning perfectly.
For the record - yes, 2x EP gen + 2 LP is probably a bad idea vs an "all-in" meta tact spammer (I wanted to try and utilize a late-game elite advantage - something very hard as illustrated in this game). I play this way to try and see if I can make infefficient or off-meta builds work. I know perfectly well that making a ton of squads is the normal way to fight off this rush (and, thus, bot players end up spamming/rushing each other).
Imo, this replay shows the strength of the "meta" game (forward base - mindless spam - attack target) vs any other style of play (in this case, hit-and-run and staying spread-out over the map). But it's hard to maintain map control when your opponents can quickly heal all that damage and harassments my DA try to do.
TL;DR - he won because of forward base meta - not because Eldar/SM is OP/UP (idk if they are).
vindicarex
In that game, they are also fighting at a forward base from almost the moment the game starts...
So - you CAN win these fights - the problem is any damage and harassment meant to keep the enemy at less-then-full strength don't matter - Eldar almost always have to fight at this big push - where you are forced to fight to defend/attack shield gen. These are exactly the kind of fights where Eldar do poorly in (in every DoW game) - Eldar do best when they have room to maneuver. However, the forward base meta is so powerful that there is no other choice but to go "all-in" and fight it - something the flimsy Eldar are not good at (fighting prolonged battles they can't escape from).
Iatros
1 on 1s are decided on tier 1, the Eldar have the advantage over SMs on tier and they ought to use that advantage to harrash power and gain tech advantage, this one here has failed and lost the game because of it.
Vindicare is a dedicated Eldar player and he has been manipulating the Relic's balance team since Dow 2 to overpower the Eldar and ensures their supremacy, I wouldn't be surprised to see him on purpose just to make a point and force yet another Eldar buff...
Auni
Eldar has a HUGE problem atm with infantrie blobs.
Dark reaper was never a good anti blob unit like devs/loota.
Cause for some reasons eldar has only 1 weaponteam, and this deal truedmg. Its normal that this unit has to scale down , cause of this nonsense truedmg.
Dire avangers with reload mechanic just cannot deal enough dps in a fight.
A fight goes now longer, and you have to reload after killing 1 - 2 models.
Banshee's.
They got a decent dmg but has a BIG problem.
they cannot come close enough or escape.
The problem is frag granate, droppods, and any cc. For some reasons they nerfed the dmg form quickstrike ( it was a good change, before it was broken like aussault leap)
But didn't remove the casting time.
The only ability to come close to the enemy, or retreat to save your squad, can be cancled easy by simple frag granates!
and ofcourse the AoE knockback of sm flag!
Also relic think , the invis ability is enough to come to a close fight? and also only with scoprion or jain zar together?
or a doktrin ofcourse.
But simple worker in your army can counter this ;/
Good player's play alltime with alot of workers for map control anyway.
What you are supposed to build the first 8-10 mins to counter a dio + killteam + 5-6 squads of tacs ? and maybe only 1 - 2 devs?
I mean you could try to port workers into the devs to interrupt to deal some dmg.
But honestly, it was before not really possible in a bigger fight, cause worker die to fast.
Honestly it doesn't matter if your opponent play tac spam or not.
If you got the same army value as your opponent on min 8-10 , sm player will trade ALLWAYS better.
Even the LP buff hurts eldar alot, cause you are not able to kill this stupid lps fast.
I mean you could, if you build 3-4 banshee squads. But what the hell you want to do with banshees against diomodes??
a Eldar army on min 6-10 cannot deal 2,9k dmg into diomodes while the same army value stay behind diomedes and fight.
Thats not possible.
its a problem atm, cause eldar is in a pretty decent spot against orks atm.
But they suck extremly against SM in generall.
https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/15114/eldar-simple-fix#latest
here another topic about eldar from me.
its about the dark reaper problem, cause i think if eldar would get 2 weaponteams instead of 1, like sm and ork.
They would be fine against sm. And not so strong anymore against orks!
Just a simple weaponteam like a loota or dev.
Cause what do you do if you play mirror sm?
And your opponent is spamming tacs?
Correct, you will add some devs to make the difference.
As ork player the same, if they meet a forward barracks , they got 2 choices.
1.) build up also a barracks and play with shoota
2.) turtle near your wagh and go for a fast loota build!
If you are a eldar player, and add dark reaper, and your opponent is splitting his tacs only a little bit, he can ignore your reaper dmg at all.
espacialy if you got only 1 or 2.
i do not talk espacialy about vindicarex game, cause like he wrote allready , he was playing a little bit of a weird build.
But over all, the problem exist, and if someone here say No .
Please post replay's against good sm's with early agression strategie, while you was beating them .
Cause i try it since patch release, and even sm i beated before easy, just roll now over me with the same strategie over and over again!
and i feel like my units deal no dmg at all, i got the same army value, but i feel like he has double of army amount.
And if i play SM, its relativ simple to execute this strategie.
Also deathstorm drops now comes little bit earlier, cause ya who need HP upgrades for infantrie now?
they are anyway tanky as ++heresy redacted++, and no real anti blob early elite can deal critical dmg like before.
and what do you build against deathstorms ? right, dark reaper, even if you are on t2 allready, but you wont get out a wraithguard soon enough.
ah and ofcourse, against a heavy elite if the game goes longer, you need also 2 wraithguards.
esleg
@auni see my detailed response to some things you say, I think you are focusing too much on Wraithguards.
https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/15114/eldar-simple-fix#latest
SM is well rounded, so it's no wonder everyone picks it, and 1v1 balance changes a lot as you go into 2v2, 3v3, etc.. but Eldar is still a powerhouse when you play specific roles.
Auni
ehm no i do not fokus to hard on wraithguard.
I WONT build them cause they suck!
But the problem is, what you should build against Heavy armor as Eldar?
You got no weaponteam like laserdev or tankbusta!
Shadowspectres are also not viable, just cuase of there range!
It is a problem atm with sm against eldar, cause you CANNOT kill diomodes + same army value behind as you.
Its just not possible to trade against this.
Look relic was nerfing the powerincome, and now buffing the infantrie hp!
So the game espacialy in 1vs1, is in first 10 mins the same. YOU HAVE TO BUILD LINE UNITS!
there is no other way, you need to trade with your tier1 and atleast 1 elite in first 10 mins .
And the first 10 mins Eldar has just a big -- against SM.
Why i wrote about wraithguard?
Cause you NEED something to counter a deathstorm drop on min 10-11 it will come 90% of the games against sm!
Also you need units to kill termis or another heavy Elite.
All your Req. units CANNOT DO THIS!!!!!
while you are able to kill termis as a SM player with only 2 laserdevs, or 3 and some micro of your other units.
YOu will need as eldar 10+ dark reaper.
All other units (DA , Shadowspectres , Banshee's Snipers) are worthless against this units.
The only Unit is your dark reaper with shitty dps but truedmg.
And if you invest to a wraithguard , he is REALLY shitty against infantrie, even with doktrin!
Before this patch comes out with hp upgrade, it was okay for eldar .
1.) You was able to remove faster models from sm player, so tac marines was not dealing so much dmg
2.) Reload mechanic of your core unit doesn't hurt soo much, and your plasma granate could delete alot of models!
3.) Eldar needet his elite's macha, and also another anti blob elite.
But now, Elites got in generall nerf + squads got more hp, doesn't loose so much models for a spell with 45 sec cooldown!
Eldar has just not the DPS to kill blobs from sm with early elites together.
Its not possible .
And you forgett 1 thing.
Cause you wrote in my other topic, that we should stay defensiv until tech units.
The problem is for tech you need power reactors, for power reactors you need units to protect this location form herass.
in 1vs1, you cannot sit on 1 ressource point and build all there with a LP + units to defend a push.
NO you have to take more ressource points.
I mean please stop with teamgames combinated with balance things.
for me the HP increase was to much.
it just completly reroll the balance in my opinion.
While they was only adjusting sniper dmg.
i think this is a huge problem, espacialy cause some elites are now worthless.
And mistakes doesn't hurt you so much anymore.
Still i think a simple weaponteam for eldar would solve alot of troubles.
Or just add skill like i wrote in my theard.
If you nerf eldar anti blob elites, you have to give eldar a ability to deal with early blobs.
cause this is a problem against sm atm.
AlienHack
exactly what i say! exactly!!! there is no way for eldar to keep SM tacts at bay inm the first 10 mins. you lose map control you lose units you cant get enough resources... simple as that. there is nothing that can be done against tacts.
maybe dire avengers cooldown should be removed or at least lowered so dire avengers can kill some tacts? now at their current state they need double the unit count to kill tacts. 4 avengers vs 2 tacts . and even then the tacts have enough HP to retreat back to bae and survive....
Thunderhost
@Iatros "Vindicare is a dedicated Eldar player" I beg your pardon, but where does this come from? From the many, many matches I've seen Vindicare plays all races and does NOT seem to favor any in particular. So kindly refrain from pointing fingers, if you have no substantiating evidence thank you.
I disagree with some of his dispositions as well, but at the very least, his ideas are thought through, even if I don't agree with them.
@Gorb Insofar as this would be called a "jab", do feel free to remove this post.
Ololo111
I'm not trying to be the wisest owl in this thread, but here is my thoughs:
Modern RTS provide too much of possibilities for one person to handle. As such, you need to pick a role.
Strange enough, I do know about "mischiefs" (mix-up players), "fencers" (capitilizing on reversals\anticipating moves players) from fighting games, but I don't know the names for it in RTS.
No matter how it's being called in official vocabulary, what I see here is two high-APM players spamming with one unit type (Vindicarex would built a single Banshee at the end, ok), not even trying to use the diversity the rooster provides, but instead inflicting as much immediate responses as they can.
Sorry, Vindi, but you have brought it yourself. You might have tried to play more "defensively", aiming to the first Falcon, Wraith-units preserve or Fireprisms, especially when you should have known that Firestone would spam TM's. He does it each and every time, and there are basically 4 units in his roster: TM, LCD, LS and Dreads. I haven't spot him in building something else, still. But you went for the map control, instead, and was just a step behind him in micro. That is it - no other reasons to add, because I can very well see someone like Babibyu win with the same pattern you've tried.
If some of them would have pull a sort of Tower Offence on another player, then, well, I might have come to the conclussion that new Turrets are leaning this game to the "turret bog" and should be nerfed, indeed.
Because, otherwise, I can't understand what is this thread about - that you can win DA+BS spam with tacs+servitors one? You, indeed, can, and Vindicarex himself might have a positive record vs Firestone total after the patch, so this very match is not relative to the case as whole.
It's not an issue as to be comparred with new LP's capacity - it's an issue with new Tireless doctrine, providing +2 to TM's, so they can harass and be quickly deployed from HQ - what was previously prerogative of DA's only (Firestone got Tireless equipped surely).
Personally, I don't really think they should have this +2, but something like old +1 and some.. mm damage reduction on the move would do
(or, in essense, would favour me more).
Ololo111
Controlling 3-4 parties in the primitive pattern at once is sure less mindless than to blob all things together. You want less buildings and more sizeable map to better capitalize on it, right?
Sorry, but the thing is that noone of you have tried some advanced-build orders\combinations in the game. And it was always aimed concentrated blobbing as reliable counter vs extensive harassment all-around the map in SC or CoH, if those could be brought as examples.
frumpylumps
You know the competitive community is dead when people who play as poorly as vindicareX are considered to be "top players".
IntoTheRainbow
The problem is after barely surviving for the first 9-10 mins against SM, they drop Terminators (Assault Termies have had HP buffed btw!) which are ridiculously hard to deal with as Eldar, as there is no equivalent elite that is as powerful at this stage of the game. You also can't get Wraithguards out as you don't have enough resources so it's critical you can bring out an elite with the same potential. Warp Spiders won't help as they only deal normal damage and Kyre again is too weak to make a difference. Granted these are 5 point elites and Termies are 6. The best hope you got is holding on til you have 7 EP but at that point you've already lost the game.
AlienHack
yes indeed. even if angelos comes down as an elite at that point eldar have nothing serious to take him down . because angelos always travels with 3-4 tacts and 1 assault or a devastator. and also has 1-2 droppods and the banner. its a cool and powerfull compination of all these. eldar have.... fleet of foot... :-)
Thunderhost
@IntoTheRainbow Try WS mines, they deal percentage damage, around 20%
Fww
You should be able to build few squads of reapers to counter this but lol "lets give them true damage so we have a reason to make this ++heresy redacted++ and pointless"
IntoTheRainbow
Angelos is not so bad as he has only normal armour (although 4000 health). Terminators (non-assault) have 3900 health but heavy armour, which is the problem. Angelos can be focused down with DA + DR + Ronahn high single shot damage taking off chunks of health each attack.
BTW I am getting the stats from here, they might need updating with more recent changes.>
@Thunderhost said:
I'm still learning how to use Spiders most effectively, so will try that.
AlienHack
dont get me wrong reapers are great. its just that they have the setup time and they dont slow down (except if you take the slow doctrine) . so a drop pod or an assault jump makes them dead. even 2 chopas charging will reach them with little health damage
vindicarex
Not to mention frag-grenades on Tacticals is a quite decent counter to them as well.
AlienHack
yeah... i forgot this one... almost everyone plays with frag grenades lately