@Bigamo said:
I kind of understand the 2 sides of its debate. But i also think that the two sides are wrong...
Each side simply desires the game to appeal them.
@SKYL0K said:
It seems to me that Relic is just now realising what they have done with this game,seeing from their questions.This game still holds mixed reviews with only 50 votes required to go under mixed.They were told for months what to do by the community but nothing(except some balance changes in recent time).How many people bought this game?And only 500 play it.Mostly those are the same people who are playing it daily.If they can make expansion like the Dark Crusade which brought massive improvements, It could bring a lot of players.Even now we are suggesting same things for months to them so they can add them and still nothing.This way I think that things will only go from bad to worse in this game.
Yes anybody can see that DoW3 is bad and failed, but:
-1- The eternal E-Sport-Heresy lie will continue to exist and corrupt games
-2- E-Sports-Acolytes will continue to lurk on forums and misguide the developers.
-3- There will be always and everywhere voices to simplify games, to rob them of their identity, to appeal a non existing E-Sport Audience
-4- There will be always doubts if good old school concepts work and told to betray the fan bases, to appeal a new non existing E-Sport Audience.
It's hard for a developer to stand up, if every business man wants to cut costs
Blizzard for example did almost copy paste Company of Heroes.
They did make cover system in Starcraft 2, because business man told them so.
Blizzard
We did actually try a cover system. We tried it frequently, and what it did to our game was prevent a lot of movement from happening on the battlefield. It slowed the game down. Players would move to cover and stop. The other player is like, "Can I get around it? Screw it. I'll just fight." Or, "I'll just build up." The game stagnated.
Our game is about dancing: advance, retreat, advance, using the choke point -- until, "Oh no, the enemy went air, the choke is useless!" It's about give and take. For our game, it was a disaster. It wasn't a perfect cover system. We never got that far, but the early indications were very poor.
It makes somehow sense why Blizzard did copy paste it.
Starcraft concept was already 12 years and Company of Heroes the most favourite game on the market.
Blizzard did listen to its core fans , not to Business man, look where they are now and you Relic.
Blizzard
A lot of players view RTS as a continuum: RTS was this, and now changes have been made, and now RTS must start from there. We don't view it that way.
We think each game has its own style and flavor. Each game has its own strengths and weaknesses. What works for us would never work for a Dawn of War, and what works for Dawn of War would never work for us. They're different games, and that's the way it should be.
That's really wise words form the best games developer in the world.
Just imagine for a second Starcraft2 would have been a copy of Company of Heroes.
South Korea would have annexed California on next day.
Man, you're saying some ignorant ++heresy redacted++.
As Bigamo mentioned they don't have an observer mode, and they really didn't help foster a community to bring e-sports about. Their actions point that they may have been in parallel for some designs, but overall it wasn't their focus.
Here's food for thought: Dawn of War really doesn't have its own identity beyond 40k + squads with melee/ranged switch.
Man, you're saying some ignorant ++heresy redacted++.
As Bigamo mentioned they don't have an observer mode, and they really didn't help foster a community to bring e-sports about. Their actions point that they may have been in parallel for some designs, but overall it wasn't their focus.
Here's food for thought: Dawn of War really doesn't have its own identity beyond 40k + squads with melee/ranged switch.
Sync kills were something only the Dawn of War series had
Man, you're saying some ignorant ++heresy redacted++.
As Bigamo mentioned they don't have an observer mode, and they really didn't help foster a community to bring e-sports about. Their actions point that they may have been in parallel for some designs, but overall it wasn't their focus.
Here's food for thought: Dawn of War really doesn't have its own identity beyond 40k + squads with melee/ranged switch.
Sync kills were something only the Dawn of War series had
No, not really. Total War has had Synch Kills since Medieval 2, and there were other games with it.
OP makes some great points. The leadership at relic has some major issues to resolve. It's obvious that DoW3 was trying to get into a larger market than RTS (which I think we can all agree is pretty slim right now) but in the end they just alienated fans, and didn't bring anything to the table that wasn't done better somewhere else, i.e. didn't pull anyone new in. Sales figures alone show that DoW3 crashed and burned hard.
Art-wise DoW3 is a beautiful game, and the sound design is beyond amazing, but the actual gameplay is a novelty. Nothing about it fits into the established 40k universe from the paper Marines to the endless Eldar. Actually I take that back, some things like boyz squads or deathstorm drop pods and walkers feel right but that's not enough right to make up for all the wrong.
@Arc said:
OP makes some great points. The leadership at relic has some major issues to resolve. It's obvious that DoW3 was trying to get into a larger market than RTS (which I think we can all agree is pretty slim right now) but in the end they just alienated fans, and didn't bring anything to the table that wasn't done better somewhere else, i.e. didn't pull anyone new in. Sales figures alone show that DoW3 crashed and burned hard.
Art-wise DoW3 is a beautiful game, and the sound design is beyond amazing, but the actual gameplay is a novelty. Nothing about it fits into the established 40k universe from the paper Marines to the endless Eldar. Actually I take that back, some things like boyz squads or deathstorm drop pods and walkers feel right but that's not enough right to make up for all the wrong.
Even the artstyle is quiet questionable, if it looks like this
This would be much much better
Oh...
You're one of 'these' people.
People who can't tell art or cgi cinematic from actual gameplay. ++heresy redacted++, World of Warcraft or Starcraft must've literally taken you to the verge of mental breakdown with art/cinematics vs gameplay footage.
@Nassir_Amit said:
It turned me quiet off, yes and I´m not alone on this
Well, then I'm must be a odd or even lucky one, because I'm too a old gamer from 90's, yet still I don't actually bother with Dow3's flaws, even if it had both a bad start and a mediocre status just like in other modern RTS games's cases. I must be blessed with liking some mediocre games, when it comes to RTS games and maybe even racing games.
@Nassir_Amit said:
It turned me quiet off, yes and I´m not alone on this
Well, then I'm must be a odd or even lucky one, because I'm too a old gamer from 90's, yet still I don't actually bother with Dow3's flaws, even if it had both a bad start and a mediocre status just like in other modern RTS games's cases. I must be blessed with liking some mediocre games, when it comes to RTS games and maybe even racing games.
Congrats, now buy a 100 000 copies to save the game
Sorry, I'm not rich enough for that. Besides........
I know that this game flopped, yet I like that game. It doesn't have to be played by everyone to me liking it. It is enough, if I will personally like it. I can understand and I'm ready to accept that there won't be probably a expansion, yet stilll.......... I think that it sold enough for at least a single expansion. And as Psycholord said and I know, it doesn't need large playerbase to have a expansion, it depends on just a sales. So who knows if Relic won't give up on this title and release a expansion with new race, even a single new race would be sufficient for me.
As for you, haters including OP, I understand that this game didn't succeded, yet doesn't mean that you can trash it over and over again, you have to accept the fact that there are still people who like this game like me, even if it is a handfull one. Also, if you think you are smarter, then you should know that ranting on the forum of a game that you don't like is actually waste of time. Don't waste the time of those who are enjoying this game.
@Arc said:
OP makes some great points. The leadership at relic has some major issues to resolve. It's obvious that DoW3 was trying to get into a larger market than RTS (which I think we can all agree is pretty slim right now) but in the end they just alienated fans, and didn't bring anything to the table that wasn't done better somewhere else, i.e. didn't pull anyone new in. Sales figures alone show that DoW3 crashed and burned hard.
RTS market is fine, it's simply we don't get proper RTS games anymore.
@DaDokisinX said:
Didn't you already make a thread like this before @StarSauron ? Didn't we already have these conversations.
And it seems Relic did learn nothing from it and requires hard evidences.
@Draconix said:
As for you, haters including OP, I understand that this game didn't succeded, yet doesn't mean that you can trash it over and over again, you have to accept the fact that there are still people who like this game like me, even if it is a handfull one. Also, if you think you are smarter, then you should know that ranting on the forum of a game that you don't like is actually waste of time. Don't waste the time of those who are enjoying this game.
1 You are right, most RTS players are smart and know it's pointless to try to talk sense into developers,
that's why the lobby for RTS games is so small online.
2 Admit that DoW3 didn't succeed is just the first step, the second should be why it didn't, especially for Relic.
Man, you're saying some ignorant ++heresy redacted++.
As Bigamo mentioned they don't have an observer mode, and they really didn't help foster a community to bring e-sports about. Their actions point that they may have been in parallel for some designs, but overall it wasn't their focus.
Here's food for thought: Dawn of War really doesn't have its own identity beyond 40k + squads with melee/ranged switch.
Sync kills were something only the Dawn of War series had
No, not really. Total War has had Synch Kills since Medieval 2, and there were other games with it.
Yeah and TW is no RTS
I never said it was. In my opinion, synch kills are a mistake for any game that aims to have fluid playability.
Man, you're saying some ignorant ++heresy redacted++.
As Bigamo mentioned they don't have an observer mode, and they really didn't help foster a community to bring e-sports about. Their actions point that they may have been in parallel for some designs, but overall it wasn't their focus.
Here's food for thought: Dawn of War really doesn't have its own identity beyond 40k + squads with melee/ranged switch.
Sync kills were something only the Dawn of War series had
No, not really. Total War has had Synch Kills since Medieval 2, and there were other games with it.
Yeah and TW is no RTS
I never said it was. In my opinion, synch kills are a mistake for any game that aims to have fluid playability.
The thing is. The same effect of sync kills can be achieved by adding a few more death animations to units. Sync kills is just eye candy and very poorly implemented eye candy at that.
@jonoliveira12 said:
I never said it was. In my opinion, synch kills are a mistake for any game that aims to have fluid playability.
Actually there are 2 sides of the coin
---1--- synch kills did slow down the speed of the game, this way it did become tactical, which appeals RTS players
synch kills did give unit a behaviour that needed to be known, actually did allow some new strategies
synch kills did give units a really interesting feedback to the player for the game, that he does actually achieve something
So you did have experienced by DOW1/2 a game where thinking and planning is important to win,
and the casual had neat feedback from his units and battlefield,
if he did capture the map new points by point and did see his units slather the enemy,
he did have the feeling maybe not to win the war, but at least some battles.
Was it intentional ? Who knows, fact is that's what this RTS Series did stand for.
---2---
Sacrifice your identity to appeal somebody else, who doesn't even care for you ?
Can this be a good idea ?
Again, this was from several Interviews from Relic their statement what they wanted to do by DoW3.
First of DoW3 failed because it tried to appeal the E-Sports/Warcraft 3/MOBA Audience.
Any person who know RTS games, would have seen that the creation would result in Inferior copy of Starcraft2
---Relic has Zero experience with E-Sports/Warcraft 3/MOBA and not the resources to sustain such game
---Starcraft2/E-Sports games do require a patch quality/frequency Relic can't deliver.
---So if you abandon your fan base, why should other people even trust you ?
---And again how they did they try to achieve this ?
By removing all the stuff "E-Sports" doesn't like and adding nothing new to appeal him.
Because they have simply no idea and zero experience about E-Sports/Warcraft 3/MOBAs.
@StarSauron said:
And it seems Relic did learn nothing from it and requires hard evidences.
Let's have no delusions about what we're actually doing here on the forums. The forums serve as a place for us to share discussions about the game with each other, and provide qualitative feedback that Relic might find useful.
There is no way that we as the general public are providing quantitative data ('hard evidence' as you put it) that is not already known to a professional developer who goes in day after day to work in the industry. A company that has been at this for decades, working under a publisher in the game since 1960, is going to already have market data at their disposal. Especially data for their own titles or the competitors for them. A rando on the forums with access to Google isn't providing groundbreaking new hard evidence. These numbers can be useful to back up arguments against fellow forum members, but if you actually think you are educating any developers with these posts I don't know what to tell you.
@StarSauron said:
1 You are right, most RTS players are smart and know it's pointless to try to talk sense into developers,
that's why the lobby for RTS games is so small online.
This feeds into my point. Relic have developed a game you dislike and you are ascribing it to unwillingness to listen to sense, or even a lack of intelligence. The design of Dawn of War 3 was a creative gamble, not an intellectual thesis you are disproving with sales figures you found on the internet.
I don't know if RTS players as a demographic have any noticeably higher average intelligence, but I do know for a fact that many strongly believe they do, and are more than happy to bring it up if they dislike a video game. Rick and Morty fans have been the subject of a lot of ridicule lately because of inflated perceptions about their intelligence, especially as they believe it relates to (or in some baffling cases believe it is because of) their love of a piece of pop culture. But this is nothing, absolutely nothing when compared to the vocal PC gamer.
@Draconix said:
As for you, haters including OP, I understand that this game didn't succeded, yet doesn't mean that you can trash it over and over again, you have to accept the fact that there are still people who like this game like me, even if it is a handfull one. Also, if you think you are smarter, then you should know that ranting on the forum of a game that you don't like is actually waste of time. Don't waste the time of those who are enjoying this game.
1 You are right, most RTS players are smart and know it's pointless to try to talk sense into developers,
that's why the lobby for RTS games is so small online.
2 Admit that DoW3 didn't succeed is just the first step, the second should be why it didn't, especially for Relic.
And I'll show you something, a quote from player from Starcraft2's forum:
"Representing a MOBA as a easy nub game and a RTS as a hardcore true skill game is doing a disservice to both genres"
And its something that I agree with that. I like RTS games but I don't bother playing a MOBA if I would like to do (except League of Legends, because of very toxic community, besides I already have a MOBA of my choice, Heroes of the Storm).
Second, there is still those who like this game, even if it is a handfull, besides this game sold enough for at least single expansion, and as I know, expansion depends on how much this game had sold. Who knows, if there will be ever a expansion for Dow3, I doubt of course, but I can at least dream of it.
@Jazz_Sandwich said:
A company that has been at this for decades, working under a publisher in the game since 1960, is going to already have market data at their disposal.
Yes, but if a company is this old, are the founders still around who have the know how what to do?
Ignite the torch is one thing, carry it is another.
Delivering something like DoW3, does question if they are up to date and in touch with the market.
@Jazz_Sandwich said:
Especially data for their own titles or the competitors for them.
Yes they have the Data, but seem not to understand it.
@Jazz_Sandwich said:
but if you actually think you are educating any developers with these posts I don't know what to tell you.
I actually would like to encourage them to make a RTS the way it should be.
@Draconix said:
Second, there is still those who like this game, even if it is a handfull, besides this game sold enough for at least single expansion, and as I know, expansion depends on how much this game had sold. Who knows, if there will be ever a expansion for Dow3, I doubt of course, but I can at least dream of it.
Menu
Comments
StarSauron
Each side simply desires the game to appeal them.
Yes anybody can see that DoW3 is bad and failed, but:
-1- The eternal E-Sport-Heresy lie will continue to exist and corrupt games
-2- E-Sports-Acolytes will continue to lurk on forums and misguide the developers.
-3- There will be always and everywhere voices to simplify games, to rob them of their identity, to appeal a non existing E-Sport Audience
-4- There will be always doubts if good old school concepts work and told to betray the fan bases, to appeal a new non existing E-Sport Audience.
It's hard for a developer to stand up, if every business man wants to cut costs
Blizzard for example did almost copy paste Company of Heroes.
They did make cover system in Starcraft 2, because business man told them so.
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/5827/starcraft_ii_building_on_the_beta.php?page=2
https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/974356-warhammer-40000-dawn-of-war-ii-chaos-rising/55285758
It makes somehow sense why Blizzard did copy paste it.
Starcraft concept was already 12 years and Company of Heroes the most favourite game on the market.
Blizzard did listen to its core fans , not to Business man, look where they are now and you Relic.
That's really wise words form the best games developer in the world.
Just imagine for a second Starcraft2 would have been a copy of Company of Heroes.
South Korea would have annexed California on next day.
steinernein
Man, you're saying some ignorant ++heresy redacted++.
As Bigamo mentioned they don't have an observer mode, and they really didn't help foster a community to bring e-sports about. Their actions point that they may have been in parallel for some designs, but overall it wasn't their focus.
Here's food for thought: Dawn of War really doesn't have its own identity beyond 40k + squads with melee/ranged switch.
Wikkyd
Sync kills were something only the Dawn of War series had
jonoliveira12
No, not really. Total War has had Synch Kills since Medieval 2, and there were other games with it.
Arc
OP makes some great points. The leadership at relic has some major issues to resolve. It's obvious that DoW3 was trying to get into a larger market than RTS (which I think we can all agree is pretty slim right now) but in the end they just alienated fans, and didn't bring anything to the table that wasn't done better somewhere else, i.e. didn't pull anyone new in. Sales figures alone show that DoW3 crashed and burned hard.
Art-wise DoW3 is a beautiful game, and the sound design is beyond amazing, but the actual gameplay is a novelty. Nothing about it fits into the established 40k universe from the paper Marines to the endless Eldar. Actually I take that back, some things like boyz squads or deathstorm drop pods and walkers feel right but that's not enough right to make up for all the wrong.
Katitof
Oh...
You're one of 'these' people.
People who can't tell art or cgi cinematic from actual gameplay.
++heresy redacted++, World of Warcraft or Starcraft must've literally taken you to the verge of mental breakdown with art/cinematics vs gameplay footage.
Draconix
Well, then I'm must be a odd or even lucky one, because I'm too a old gamer from 90's, yet still I don't actually bother with Dow3's flaws, even if it had both a bad start and a mediocre status just like in other modern RTS games's cases. I must be blessed with liking some mediocre games, when it comes to RTS games and maybe even racing games.
steinernein
@DaDokisinX Fite me.
DaDokisinX
lol, IRL or in game. You can find me on steam at DaDokisinX. Come at me br0.
Draconix
Sorry, I'm not rich enough for that. Besides........
I know that this game flopped, yet I like that game. It doesn't have to be played by everyone to me liking it. It is enough, if I will personally like it. I can understand and I'm ready to accept that there won't be probably a expansion, yet stilll.......... I think that it sold enough for at least a single expansion. And as Psycholord said and I know, it doesn't need large playerbase to have a expansion, it depends on just a sales. So who knows if Relic won't give up on this title and release a expansion with new race, even a single new race would be sufficient for me.
As for you, haters including OP, I understand that this game didn't succeded, yet doesn't mean that you can trash it over and over again, you have to accept the fact that there are still people who like this game like me, even if it is a handfull one. Also, if you think you are smarter, then you should know that ranting on the forum of a game that you don't like is actually waste of time. Don't waste the time of those who are enjoying this game.
Draconix
Indeed.
@Gorb, lock that thread, pretty please.
StarSauron
2013 Company of Heroes 2 sells 380,000 in five days, That's more sales, than people who did try DoW3, even with free weekend.
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/company-of-heroes-2-sells-380000-in-five-days/1100-6412270/
2015 StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void has sold more than 1 million copies within its first 24 hours of being on sale.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/11/13/starcraft-2-legacy-of-the-void-sells-1-million-copies-in-24-hours
RTS market is fine, it's simply we don't get proper RTS games anymore.
And it seems Relic did learn nothing from it and requires hard evidences.
1 You are right, most RTS players are smart and know it's pointless to try to talk sense into developers,
that's why the lobby for RTS games is so small online.
2 Admit that DoW3 didn't succeed is just the first step, the second should be why it didn't, especially for Relic.
jonoliveira12
I never said it was. In my opinion, synch kills are a mistake for any game that aims to have fluid playability.
CANNED_F3TUS
The thing is. The same effect of sync kills can be achieved by adding a few more death animations to units. Sync kills is just eye candy and very poorly implemented eye candy at that.
StarSauron
Actually there are 2 sides of the coin
---1--- synch kills did slow down the speed of the game, this way it did become tactical, which appeals RTS players
synch kills did give unit a behaviour that needed to be known, actually did allow some new strategies
synch kills did give units a really interesting feedback to the player for the game, that he does actually achieve something
So you did have experienced by DOW1/2 a game where thinking and planning is important to win,
and the casual had neat feedback from his units and battlefield,
if he did capture the map new points by point and did see his units slather the enemy,
he did have the feeling maybe not to win the war, but at least some battles.
Was it intentional ? Who knows, fact is that's what this RTS Series did stand for.
---2---
Sacrifice your identity to appeal somebody else, who doesn't even care for you ?
Can this be a good idea ?
Again, this was from several Interviews from Relic their statement what they wanted to do by DoW3.
First of DoW3 failed because it tried to appeal the E-Sports/Warcraft 3/MOBA Audience.
Any person who know RTS games, would have seen that the creation would result in Inferior copy of Starcraft2
---Relic has Zero experience with E-Sports/Warcraft 3/MOBA and not the resources to sustain such game
---Starcraft2/E-Sports games do require a patch quality/frequency Relic can't deliver.
---So if you abandon your fan base, why should other people even trust you ?
---And again how they did they try to achieve this ?
By removing all the stuff "E-Sports" doesn't like and adding nothing new to appeal him.
Because they have simply no idea and zero experience about E-Sports/Warcraft 3/MOBAs.
Jazz_Sandwich
Let's have no delusions about what we're actually doing here on the forums. The forums serve as a place for us to share discussions about the game with each other, and provide qualitative feedback that Relic might find useful.
There is no way that we as the general public are providing quantitative data ('hard evidence' as you put it) that is not already known to a professional developer who goes in day after day to work in the industry. A company that has been at this for decades, working under a publisher in the game since 1960, is going to already have market data at their disposal. Especially data for their own titles or the competitors for them. A rando on the forums with access to Google isn't providing groundbreaking new hard evidence. These numbers can be useful to back up arguments against fellow forum members, but if you actually think you are educating any developers with these posts I don't know what to tell you.
This feeds into my point. Relic have developed a game you dislike and you are ascribing it to unwillingness to listen to sense, or even a lack of intelligence. The design of Dawn of War 3 was a creative gamble, not an intellectual thesis you are disproving with sales figures you found on the internet.
I don't know if RTS players as a demographic have any noticeably higher average intelligence, but I do know for a fact that many strongly believe they do, and are more than happy to bring it up if they dislike a video game. Rick and Morty fans have been the subject of a lot of ridicule lately because of inflated perceptions about their intelligence, especially as they believe it relates to (or in some baffling cases believe it is because of) their love of a piece of pop culture. But this is nothing, absolutely nothing when compared to the vocal PC gamer.
Draconix
And I'll show you something, a quote from player from Starcraft2's forum:
"Representing a MOBA as a easy nub game and a RTS as a hardcore true skill game is doing a disservice to both genres"
And its something that I agree with that. I like RTS games but I don't bother playing a MOBA if I would like to do (except League of Legends, because of very toxic community, besides I already have a MOBA of my choice, Heroes of the Storm).
Second, there is still those who like this game, even if it is a handfull, besides this game sold enough for at least single expansion, and as I know, expansion depends on how much this game had sold. Who knows, if there will be ever a expansion for Dow3, I doubt of course, but I can at least dream of it.
StarSauron
Yes, but if a company is this old, are the founders still around who have the know how what to do?
Ignite the torch is one thing, carry it is another.
Delivering something like DoW3, does question if they are up to date and in touch with the market.
Yes they have the Data, but seem not to understand it.
I actually would like to encourage them to make a RTS the way it should be.
It depends on interest to the product and its simply not there.
http://steamspy.com/app/285190
Considering it was sold for 20 Euro +Free Weekend
Like 51,100 ± 6,815 (14.74%) did play it at all
So lets give it another 2 weeks and look how many will be left on 24.11.2017
would that numbers justify farther investments ?