Tbh, I think Relic should create its own IP. They did it in the past with Homeworld, and it was a great success.
As much as I love my 40k Orks, a WH40K RTS is a dead end. It's impossible to please everyone : too many units, too many races, too many sub factions, too many scales, crazy lore...
Right now, I'm following Iron Harvest for 2018, it looks like a COH/DOW2 hybrid, in a post WW1 alternate history.
Giant robots, units taking cover, heavy weapon teams, it looks great.
I would love Relic to try that instead of using WH40k or WW2 again and again.
Now, I have to fully disagree with statements that RTS is dying genre in our day and age. This genre was NEVER even close as popular as any 3D Action, Shooter, Fighting, Racing or even Sport Sims.
RTS is more popular than racing games btw, at least "Strategy" is, and the "not even close" claim in relation to racing is not accurate. Just saying.
Also, 10+ years ago before the rise of MOBA's and MMO's, RTS was by WAY more popular among gamers. They were so big that they dominated almost all the "pro" scenes back in the day. I really don't know who you can make the claim that RTS hasn't lost a huge amount of prestige and popularity over the past 10+ years. Just ask people you know, many will say that they played Wc3 or SC, or C&C back in the day, but now they do not even touch RTS games. I mean what happened to all of them if RTS is not on the decline? Where did the hundreds of thousands of DoW1 and SC players go? Are they just so spoiled that they can't play any less than perfect and fun RTS game anymore? And even if you are right, this just means that RTS will forever be a near irrelevant genre (in which case huge funding for RTS games and more than 1 company even bothering to make them (relic) will soon be a thing of the past).
RTS is still played and enjoyed by many. even C&C was popular as a series and enjoyed by their veterans and newcomers UNTIL C&C4, which tried to innovate and effectively killed the series. WC3 is far too gone beyond the time and i swear that it there was a blizzard-made warcraft 4 with much improved graphics, a compelling story line and the same gameplay as expected from WC, it is going to be a hit, both for newcomers and veterans.
thing is, dow3 does not need to be the next pubg or dota. it just has to carry on its legacy with the standards set by its predecessors. what it has done is repeated the mistake of command and conquer series by force feeding a whole bunch of unwanted features that does not make good sense in game (strange economy and phases, draggy victory conditions, strange cover mechanics).
my take is that RTS players are a unique breed, rather than spoiled that they dont want to play any other RTS less than perfect. what people want is just updated graphics, continue the storyline and the nostalgia of playing something that captured their heart back when they were young. also to have their favourite race/units well represented in the game. which is what the game lacks currently, polish and content.
then again, when our resident caster indrid rather do dow2 elite mod casts and age of wonders than dawn of war 3. i think that speaks alot about dow3 which have deviated too far off from dow1 or dow2. its a game of its own and flopped. sometimes, the whole might not be greater than the sum of its part.
You do realize, that most of the complaints were about the artstyle and the innitial design??
The game was under a black star from the moment they showed the first gameplay.
Doing 40k is not that difficult, but please stick to certain rules!
Doing 40k is not that difficult ?
lol
Doing 40k is insanely hard because everyone will be disappointed by something.
zomg where are my fire dragons
zomg jumping terminator
zomg 3 races only
zomg 1 TSM not killing a full slugga squad by himself
zomg this is not grimdark enough, I just saw a bright color
zomg zomg zomg I can go on and on for a day if you want.
Even DOW1 had plenty of complaints about it no respecting the lore.
A lot of people worshiping it now just look at it with nostalgia eyes, and forget it needed 3 expansions to reach 9 races and tons of units, or just forget that UA is a freaking mod.
You do realize, that most of the complaints were about the artstyle and the innitial design??
The game was under a black star from the moment they showed the first gameplay.
Doing 40k is not that difficult, but please stick to certain rules!
Doing 40k is not that difficult ?
lol
Doing 40k is insanely hard because everyone will be disappointed by something.
zomg where are my fire dragons
zomg jumping terminator
zomg 3 races only
zomg 1 TSM not killing a full slugga squad by himself
zomg this is not grimdark enough, I just saw a bright color
zomg zomg zomg I can go on and on for a day if you want.
Even DOW1 had plenty of complaints about it no respecting the lore.
A lot of people worshiping it now just look at it with nostalgia eyes, and forget it needed 3 expansions to reach 9 races and tons of units, or just forget that UA is a freaking mod.
Pretty much this.
Every single 40k fan has very different perception on the IP, because its never visualized anywhere outside of minis and minis are just that, fancy chess pieces with weird proportions for infantry, its all about imagination and 40k itself is so tremendously inconsistent and random depending on source that its impossible to create anything true to 40k, because 40k isn't true to itself at all, its all about power fantasy of writer and reader.
People screaming about DoW1 superiority don't even remember how it played or looked. As you've said, they are zealous to the point, where they can't even tell the difference between UA and base game or don't even acknowledge that DoW1 did not released with 9 factions.
You can find deluded fools on steam who firmly believe DoW1 has better graphics and models, THAT is the level of nostalgic denial they have.
@GuruSkippy said:
Tbh, I think Relic should create its own IP. They did it in the past with Homeworld, and it was a great success.
As much as I love my 40k Orks, a WH40K RTS is a dead end. It's impossible to please everyone : too many units, too many races, too many sub factions, too many scales, crazy lore...
Right now, I'm following Iron Harvest for 2018, it looks like a COH/DOW2 hybrid, in a post WW1 alternate history.
Giant robots, units taking cover, heavy weapon teams, it looks great.
I would love Relic to try that instead of using WH40k or WW2 again and again.
What about us WH nerds lol. I get what you are saying and 40k fans are almost impossible to satisfy probably the most toxic fanbase out there but still. Haha.
@Nassir_Amit said:
They shouldn th ave name this game DoW, when it would be so different. That would have spared them alot of problems!
As long as it is a WH40k game, you can give it the name you want, you'll have a lot of problems.
For example, COH and COH2 released with 2 races only, SC1 and 2 with 3. Did someone blink an eye ? I don't think so.
DOW3 released with 3 races only, and the best 3 races Relic ever made in their history, design wise. Guess what, no one cares and just want more because Chaos/Necron/Tau/IG/SoB/DarkEldar/Tyranid/Mechanicum/Squats/Digganobz are not in and should have been in since day 1, for 20€£$ only
Now, I have to fully disagree with statements that RTS is dying genre in our day and age. This genre was NEVER even close as popular as any 3D Action, Shooter, Fighting, Racing or even Sport Sims.
RTS is more popular than racing games btw, at least "Strategy" is, and the "not even close" claim in relation to racing is not accurate. Just saying.
Also, 10+ years ago before the rise of MOBA's and MMO's, RTS was by WAY more popular among gamers. They were so big that they dominated almost all the "pro" scenes back in the day. I really don't know who you can make the claim that RTS hasn't lost a huge amount of prestige and popularity over the past 10+ years. Just ask people you know, many will say that they played Wc3 or SC, or C&C back in the day, but now they do not even touch RTS games. I mean what happened to all of them if RTS is not on the decline? Where did the hundreds of thousands of DoW1 and SC players go? Are they just so spoiled that they can't play any less than perfect and fun RTS game anymore? And even if you are right, this just means that RTS will forever be a near irrelevant genre (in which case huge funding for RTS games and more than 1 company even bothering to make them (relic) will soon be a thing of the past).
I highly doubt that even StarCraft or C&C was more popular than, f.e. any NFS like some ~15-20 years ago. I was kid back then, we were playing SC in local computer club after school sometimes, but CS or UT were like interschool official e-sport back then, literally everyone were playing it. I swear, even stuff like FIFA was more popular than strategies, and the only reason why RTS like SC, WC or C&C kept on the surface, because they were GOOD, simple as that. As I said, RTS is conservative genre, if it's done in quality and doesn't detract too much from formula created by first game in the title, it will find its own demand. DOW I was pretty different from all other mass-appeal RTS games of that time, and it kinda created its own cult, maybe smaller in number of fans, but it did. Doing something that appeals to other target groups will often piss off original playerbase, especially if this something new - objectively isn't good enough. And question about how can they design truly innovative RTS that will gain instant popularity out of the blue still remains open...
@GuruSkippy said:
Yeah let's make a game for a community who will bomb us on youtube and steam.
Haha
That's so fun
...
Wait, no, it isn't.
I'd be Relic boss, I'd say "Fvck all of them, we won't create a 40k game ever again".
What else are they going to do? Another homeworld? Relic made the critical error of trying to make a MOBA. They admitted it during interviews. Could you imagine how pathetic it would have been with generic IG and tyranid models slowly crawling up another generic 3 lane map shooting towers etc. Just tragic. The game we got called DOW3 is the skeleton of several other concepts stitched together than then puppeted for us to look at. I don't even dislike DOW3, sure the balance issues pissed me off and the community has its fair share of knuckle draggers but that's not enough for me to tell anyone I meet on the street that "it's a ++heresy redacted++ game don't buy it".
DOW3 will be serve as a lesson for this industry that playing on what's in vogue right now won't work if you can't create a GREAT game to compete with the ones already established. It's the same logic train people use to complain about WOW, how WOW has so much to do that any new game gets compared to the game WOW is today, not the vanilla WOW that launched in 2004. In effect, the investment for any new competitor outstrips the investment for the existing guys because the new kids have 100% costs and the old boys have earned their money back already and funded their growth from the profits. Is it fair? Yes. Does it mean you can't make a great game with less to do? No. Where companies go wrong is they just take the formula and slap some new paint on, tweak a thing or two and then pretend it's something original. Look at lawbreakers, formulaic garbage peddled by a bigot, there's not a single thing in Lawbreakers that is even remotely original and that's why it died on launch.
Every RTS that wasn't Warcraft or Starcraft pretty much had cult followings and nothing more. Also, user map settings.
And were they really all that good? Or is it nostalgia speaking? I would think, by today's standards, as a stand alone they wouldn't hold up very well at all.
There is nothing inherently conservative about the RTS genre, but the fans themselves tend to be entrenched out of ignorance or whatever else. As a result, the developers have to often gamble or make schizophrenic choices. Frankly, publishers and developers ought to adopt the Silicon Valley way of doing things and treat each game as a start up - ++heresy redacted++ the old base because eventually when they succeed they'll have recouped all their losses and have gained.
There's no question that there's still a market for RTS games. CoH 2 and Starcraft2 prove it.
The market isn't as big as others perhaps, but blaming DoW III's failure on the available market is ridiculous simply by virtue of their being better and more successful alternatives. It's not a matter of these games being out longer either. These games were more successful at virtually every stage than DoW III.
@Amoc said:
There's no question that there's still a market for RTS games. CoH 2 and Starcraft2 prove it.
The market isn't as big as others perhaps, but blaming DoW III's failure on the available market is ridiculous simply by virtue of their being better and more successful alternatives. It's not a matter of these games being out longer either. These games were more successful at virtually every stage than DoW III.
Actually, if SC2 was that much of a success, Blizzard would focus its efforts on developing another entry, not digging out dead body and giving it make-up to pretend its modern and not last century(LITERALLY, KEK) product.
Blizzard noticed with SC2 example that RTS genre is on decline and the only customers they can hook up are the nostalgia filled drones who will pay for memories from 20 years ago.
@Amoc said:
There's no question that there's still a market for RTS games. CoH 2 and Starcraft2 prove it.
The market isn't as big as others perhaps, but blaming DoW III's failure on the available market is ridiculous simply by virtue of their being better and more successful alternatives. It's not a matter of these games being out longer either. These games were more successful at virtually every stage than DoW III.
Actually, if SC2 was that much of a success, Blizzard would focus its efforts on developing another entry, not digging out dead body and giving it make-up to pretend its modern and not last century(LITERALLY, KEK) product.
Blizzard noticed with SC2 example that RTS genre is on decline and the only customers they can hook up are the nostalgia filled drones who will pay for memories from 20 years ago.
As to address Amoc, the RTS market is fairly static; so instead of capturing say 5,000 gamers out of a pool of 10k you're only capturing 10k out of 10 mil. Targeting and sustaining the 'traditional' audience has been pointless since the dawn of MOBAs. RTS game play really isn't fun for most people and you have to be a special kind of ++heresy redacted++ to enjoy those games (hint: that's pretty much all of us in one form or another).
RTS games are overwhelming and stressful for prolonged periods of time and you have to do it alone more often than not due to social expectation and the games then enforcing it.
@Amoc said:
There's no question that there's still a market for RTS games. CoH 2 and Starcraft2 prove it.
The market isn't as big as others perhaps, but blaming DoW III's failure on the available market is ridiculous simply by virtue of their being better and more successful alternatives. It's not a matter of these games being out longer either. These games were more successful at virtually every stage than DoW III.
Actually, if SC2 was that much of a success, Blizzard would focus its efforts on developing another entry, not digging out dead body and giving it make-up to pretend its modern and not last century(LITERALLY, KEK) product.
Blizzard noticed with SC2 example that RTS genre is on decline and the only customers they can hook up are the nostalgia filled drones who will pay for memories from 20 years ago.
If you want it to look better then it did in 1997, you need to pay and everyone who wants to feel relevant will.
Blizzards strategy is most clearly appealing to already existing fans and squeeze nostalgia money out of them.
SC:BW remaster is a proof of this.
ANOTHER WoW Classic server launch is another proof of this.
@Katitof said:
If you want it to look better then it did in 1997, you need to pay and everyone who wants to feel relevant will.
Blizzards strategy is most clearly appealing to already existing fans and squeeze nostalgia money out of them.
SC:BW remaster is a proof of this.
ANOTHER WoW Classic server launch is another proof of this.
Well, let's be honest here, as a stereotype Blizzard has been known not to be innovative. They just polish everything. Your nostalgia included.
I seriously don't get what some posters trying to say here... During classic RTS era, I was the kid, most of my mates were kids, we were interested and enjoyed those great RTS games a lot. Are you trying to say today's kids are all despise or can't enjoy RTS games? Why? Some braindead games were around even then, say, hack'n'slash RPGs (Diablo and its clones f.e.) where you control single hero with several skills. It was more popular than RTS games back than, exactly as MOBAs or MMOs are more popular than RTS in our day. SC2 has big playerbase, CoH has sufficient playerbase, old AoE and C&C has steady (even big) pop as well. Are you trying to say all these people are neckbeards in their mid 50s? Do you imply that currently youngsters aren't biggest pop in SC2 f.e.? The only reason why not too many people play RTS games because:
THERE ARE NO RTS GAMES! There are only few decent ones, rest are utter ++heresy redacted++ or outright non-existent. If there would be more and high quality ones, people will be playing them in heaps, same as in old days. When people will realize this?...
Market is there, demand is there, but marketologists with their useless research keep money hungry publishers and investors away from this genre for no good reason. Kickstarter revived cRPGs, some other less popular genres. I'm sure one day it will revive RTS as well. Key is not to be chasing MOBA or MMO crowd for quick $$$, but to concentrate on target audience and product quality.
@Amoc said:
There's no question that there's still a market for RTS games. CoH 2 and Starcraft2 prove it.
The market isn't as big as others perhaps, but blaming DoW III's failure on the available market is ridiculous simply by virtue of their being better and more successful alternatives. It's not a matter of these games being out longer either. These games were more successful at virtually every stage than DoW III.
Actually, if SC2 was that much of a success, Blizzard would focus its efforts on developing another entry, not digging out dead body and giving it make-up to pretend its modern and not last century(LITERALLY, KEK) product.
Blizzard noticed with SC2 example that RTS genre is on decline and the only customers they can hook up are the nostalgia filled drones who will pay for memories from 20 years ago.
If you want it to look better then it did in 1997, you need to pay and everyone who wants to feel relevant will.
Blizzards strategy is most clearly appealing to already existing fans and squeeze nostalgia money out of them.
SC:BW remaster is a proof of this.
ANOTHER WoW Classic server launch is another proof of this.
And what about the expansions? That's just them milking the audience? Sure maybe, but they're good expansions. DoW1 and 2 had expansions, I don't feel milked because they were also really good.
@Amoc said:
There's no question that there's still a market for RTS games. CoH 2 and Starcraft2 prove it.
The market isn't as big as others perhaps, but blaming DoW III's failure on the available market is ridiculous simply by virtue of their being better and more successful alternatives. It's not a matter of these games being out longer either. These games were more successful at virtually every stage than DoW III.
Actually, if SC2 was that much of a success, Blizzard would focus its efforts on developing another entry, not digging out dead body and giving it make-up to pretend its modern and not last century(LITERALLY, KEK) product.
Blizzard noticed with SC2 example that RTS genre is on decline and the only customers they can hook up are the nostalgia filled drones who will pay for memories from 20 years ago.
If you want it to look better then it did in 1997, you need to pay and everyone who wants to feel relevant will.
Blizzards strategy is most clearly appealing to already existing fans and squeeze nostalgia money out of them.
SC:BW remaster is a proof of this.
ANOTHER WoW Classic server launch is another proof of this.
This is getting ridicolous. Did a blizzard dev eat your tart or something?
SC2 has dates graphics yes, but not that dated. And SC2 going f2p simply means they want to get more new ppl into the MP, probably a reaction to the playerbase and viewership numbers tanking a bit ocercthe last 2 years. Ties in nicely with the big overhaul patch coming after blizzcon that will finally adress stuff weve beem bitching about for 2 years.
And BW remastered has little to do with nostalgia, but everything with Koreans being simply batshkt insane. BW is still their national sport and very much alive. A facelift after 20 years is a smart idea.
@Stoner said:
I seriously don't get what some posters trying to say here... During classic RTS era, I was the kid, most of my mates were kids, we were interested and enjoyed those great RTS games a lot. Are you trying to say today's kids are all despise or can't enjoy RTS games? Why?
Yes.
Why?
Because technology, that's why.
Go thank mobile games(which is very often first contact with "gaming" for vast majority of kids) with their instant gratification.
We played and enjoyed RTS as kids, because it was something new to us, we didn't had smart phones, cell phones themselves were rare and as fun as snake was, it didn't stood up to RTS games.
Nowadays kids have smartphones and easy, quick games.
We had limited access to games and games themselves were much, much more challenging.
We, the 30+ gamers are completely different demographic then current teens and below.
Kids nowadays despise or can't enjoy RTS games, because they are simply too hard for them to understand.
For similar reasons, MMORPG genre is decaying - it does not offer instant gratification and requires time and dedication, something millenials do not have as again, they seek for short sessions with quick enjoyment, flat learning curve and instant reward.
We enjoyed impossible to beat games, they enjoy completing a stage in Candy Crash.
@Stoner said:
I seriously don't get what some posters trying to say here... During classic RTS era, I was the kid, most of my mates were kids, we were interested and enjoyed those great RTS games a lot. Are you trying to say today's kids are all despise or can't enjoy RTS games? Why? Some braindead games were around even then, say, hack'n'slash RPGs (Diablo and its clones f.e.) where you control single hero with several skills. It was more popular than RTS games back than, exactly as MOBAs or MMOs are more popular than RTS in our day. SC2 has big playerbase, CoH has sufficient playerbase, old AoE and C&C has steady (even big) pop as well. Are you trying to say all these people are neckbeards in their mid 50s? Do you imply that currently youngsters aren't biggest pop in SC2 f.e.? The only reason why not too many people play RTS games because:
THERE ARE NO RTS GAMES! There are only few decent ones, rest are utter ++heresy redacted++ or outright non-existent. If there would be more and high quality ones, people will be playing them in heaps, same as in old days. When people will realize this?...
Market is there, demand is there, but marketologists with their useless research keep money hungry publishers and investors away from this genre for no good reason. Kickstarter revived cRPGs, some other less popular genres. I'm sure one day it will revive RTS as well. Key is not to be chasing MOBA or MMO crowd for quick $$$, but to concentrate on target audience and product quality.
Bruh, the return on investment for RTS games suck in terms of effort - they really aren't fun unless you have nothing better to do, or if you're autistic aka the rest of us who still play RTS games or you're doing it for the campaign because you happen to like the story. There are simply better options out there.
I'm personally trying to say that you're a special kind of person if you like RTS games, not that you're more or less intelligent, but the demographic is pretty unique because the games are almost inherently anti fun. So, the amount of people you capture is going to be relatively the same if you stick with the 'traditional' formula aka not enough to warrant sustaining unless you have a blockbuster franchise (and even Blizzard is starting to cave in).
The entire concept of a RTS is, in its 'purest' form, is pretty stupid too and demands too much for too little. It's one of those things that people would rather watch than play and, arguably, it's not that watchable in some cases.
Also, if you want to look at the grand scheme of things, the percentage count of RTS players in relation to the overall population is almost logarithmic, it might as well be a constant. When you had a low number of gamers, it certainly was a titan in the sea of genres, but as you expand the population the growth is barely there.
View a RTS from an outsider perspective and you'll know why it's a ++heresy redacted++ genre and why those who are thoroughly in love with it will try to seek out other mechanics even if it means turning to MOBAs or whatever else to attract more people. The amount of people left in the RTS crowd who actually play is depressing.
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GuruSkippy
Tbh, I think Relic should create its own IP. They did it in the past with Homeworld, and it was a great success.
As much as I love my 40k Orks, a WH40K RTS is a dead end. It's impossible to please everyone : too many units, too many races, too many sub factions, too many scales, crazy lore...
Right now, I'm following Iron Harvest for 2018, it looks like a COH/DOW2 hybrid, in a post WW1 alternate history.
Giant robots, units taking cover, heavy weapon teams, it looks great.
I would love Relic to try that instead of using WH40k or WW2 again and again.
wongtp
RTS is still played and enjoyed by many. even C&C was popular as a series and enjoyed by their veterans and newcomers UNTIL C&C4, which tried to innovate and effectively killed the series. WC3 is far too gone beyond the time and i swear that it there was a blizzard-made warcraft 4 with much improved graphics, a compelling story line and the same gameplay as expected from WC, it is going to be a hit, both for newcomers and veterans.
thing is, dow3 does not need to be the next pubg or dota. it just has to carry on its legacy with the standards set by its predecessors. what it has done is repeated the mistake of command and conquer series by force feeding a whole bunch of unwanted features that does not make good sense in game (strange economy and phases, draggy victory conditions, strange cover mechanics).
my take is that RTS players are a unique breed, rather than spoiled that they dont want to play any other RTS less than perfect. what people want is just updated graphics, continue the storyline and the nostalgia of playing something that captured their heart back when they were young. also to have their favourite race/units well represented in the game. which is what the game lacks currently, polish and content.
then again, when our resident caster indrid rather do dow2 elite mod casts and age of wonders than dawn of war 3. i think that speaks alot about dow3 which have deviated too far off from dow1 or dow2. its a game of its own and flopped. sometimes, the whole might not be greater than the sum of its part.
GuruSkippy
Doing 40k is not that difficult ?
lol
Doing 40k is insanely hard because everyone will be disappointed by something.
zomg where are my fire dragons
zomg jumping terminator
zomg 3 races only
zomg 1 TSM not killing a full slugga squad by himself
zomg this is not grimdark enough, I just saw a bright color
zomg zomg zomg I can go on and on for a day if you want.
Even DOW1 had plenty of complaints about it no respecting the lore.
A lot of people worshiping it now just look at it with nostalgia eyes, and forget it needed 3 expansions to reach 9 races and tons of units, or just forget that UA is a freaking mod.
Katitof
Pretty much this.
Every single 40k fan has very different perception on the IP, because its never visualized anywhere outside of minis and minis are just that, fancy chess pieces with weird proportions for infantry, its all about imagination and 40k itself is so tremendously inconsistent and random depending on source that its impossible to create anything true to 40k, because 40k isn't true to itself at all, its all about power fantasy of writer and reader.
People screaming about DoW1 superiority don't even remember how it played or looked. As you've said, they are zealous to the point, where they can't even tell the difference between UA and base game or don't even acknowledge that DoW1 did not released with 9 factions.
You can find deluded fools on steam who firmly believe DoW1 has better graphics and models, THAT is the level of nostalgic denial they have.
CANNED_F3TUS
What about us WH nerds lol. I get what you are saying and 40k fans are almost impossible to satisfy probably the most toxic fanbase out there but still. Haha.
GuruSkippy
Yeah let's make a game for a community who will bomb us on youtube and steam.
Haha
That's so fun
...
Wait, no, it isn't.
I'd be Relic boss, I'd say "Fvck all of them, we won't create a 40k game ever again".
GuruSkippy
As long as it is a WH40k game, you can give it the name you want, you'll have a lot of problems.
For example, COH and COH2 released with 2 races only, SC1 and 2 with 3. Did someone blink an eye ? I don't think so.
DOW3 released with 3 races only, and the best 3 races Relic ever made in their history, design wise. Guess what, no one cares and just want more because Chaos/Necron/Tau/IG/SoB/DarkEldar/Tyranid/Mechanicum/Squats/Digganobz are not in and should have been in since day 1, for 20€£$ only
Stoner
I highly doubt that even StarCraft or C&C was more popular than, f.e. any NFS like some ~15-20 years ago. I was kid back then, we were playing SC in local computer club after school sometimes, but CS or UT were like interschool official e-sport back then, literally everyone were playing it. I swear, even stuff like FIFA was more popular than strategies, and the only reason why RTS like SC, WC or C&C kept on the surface, because they were GOOD, simple as that. As I said, RTS is conservative genre, if it's done in quality and doesn't detract too much from formula created by first game in the title, it will find its own demand. DOW I was pretty different from all other mass-appeal RTS games of that time, and it kinda created its own cult, maybe smaller in number of fans, but it did. Doing something that appeals to other target groups will often piss off original playerbase, especially if this something new - objectively isn't good enough. And question about how can they design truly innovative RTS that will gain instant popularity out of the blue still remains open...
MrBenis
What else are they going to do? Another homeworld? Relic made the critical error of trying to make a MOBA. They admitted it during interviews. Could you imagine how pathetic it would have been with generic IG and tyranid models slowly crawling up another generic 3 lane map shooting towers etc. Just tragic. The game we got called DOW3 is the skeleton of several other concepts stitched together than then puppeted for us to look at. I don't even dislike DOW3, sure the balance issues pissed me off and the community has its fair share of knuckle draggers but that's not enough for me to tell anyone I meet on the street that "it's a ++heresy redacted++ game don't buy it".
DOW3 will be serve as a lesson for this industry that playing on what's in vogue right now won't work if you can't create a GREAT game to compete with the ones already established. It's the same logic train people use to complain about WOW, how WOW has so much to do that any new game gets compared to the game WOW is today, not the vanilla WOW that launched in 2004. In effect, the investment for any new competitor outstrips the investment for the existing guys because the new kids have 100% costs and the old boys have earned their money back already and funded their growth from the profits. Is it fair? Yes. Does it mean you can't make a great game with less to do? No. Where companies go wrong is they just take the formula and slap some new paint on, tweak a thing or two and then pretend it's something original. Look at lawbreakers, formulaic garbage peddled by a bigot, there's not a single thing in Lawbreakers that is even remotely original and that's why it died on launch.
steinernein
@Stoner
Every RTS that wasn't Warcraft or Starcraft pretty much had cult followings and nothing more. Also, user map settings.
And were they really all that good? Or is it nostalgia speaking? I would think, by today's standards, as a stand alone they wouldn't hold up very well at all.
There is nothing inherently conservative about the RTS genre, but the fans themselves tend to be entrenched out of ignorance or whatever else. As a result, the developers have to often gamble or make schizophrenic choices. Frankly, publishers and developers ought to adopt the Silicon Valley way of doing things and treat each game as a start up - ++heresy redacted++ the old base because eventually when they succeed they'll have recouped all their losses and have gained.
Wikkyd
Anything on the survey for us today?
Amoc
There's no question that there's still a market for RTS games. CoH 2 and Starcraft2 prove it.
The market isn't as big as others perhaps, but blaming DoW III's failure on the available market is ridiculous simply by virtue of their being better and more successful alternatives. It's not a matter of these games being out longer either. These games were more successful at virtually every stage than DoW III.
Katitof
Actually, if SC2 was that much of a success, Blizzard would focus its efforts on developing another entry, not digging out dead body and giving it make-up to pretend its modern and not last century(LITERALLY, KEK) product.
Blizzard noticed with SC2 example that RTS genre is on decline and the only customers they can hook up are the nostalgia filled drones who will pay for memories from 20 years ago.
Gorb
Okay, in this thread, if we could get back to the survey, instead of creating arguments about another game, that would be good. Thanks.
Moderator Post
steinernein
It just went free to play. https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/3/16603910/starcraft-2-f2p-announced-release-date-blizzcon-2017
As to address Amoc, the RTS market is fairly static; so instead of capturing say 5,000 gamers out of a pool of 10k you're only capturing 10k out of 10 mil. Targeting and sustaining the 'traditional' audience has been pointless since the dawn of MOBAs. RTS game play really isn't fun for most people and you have to be a special kind of ++heresy redacted++ to enjoy those games (hint: that's pretty much all of us in one form or another).
RTS games are overwhelming and stressful for prolonged periods of time and you have to do it alone more often than not due to social expectation and the games then enforcing it.
Katitof
If you want it to look better then it did in 1997, you need to pay and everyone who wants to feel relevant will.
Blizzards strategy is most clearly appealing to already existing fans and squeeze nostalgia money out of them.
SC:BW remaster is a proof of this.
ANOTHER WoW Classic server launch is another proof of this.
steinernein
Well, let's be honest here, as a stereotype Blizzard has been known not to be innovative. They just polish everything. Your nostalgia included.
Stoner
I seriously don't get what some posters trying to say here... During classic RTS era, I was the kid, most of my mates were kids, we were interested and enjoyed those great RTS games a lot. Are you trying to say today's kids are all despise or can't enjoy RTS games? Why? Some braindead games were around even then, say, hack'n'slash RPGs (Diablo and its clones f.e.) where you control single hero with several skills. It was more popular than RTS games back than, exactly as MOBAs or MMOs are more popular than RTS in our day. SC2 has big playerbase, CoH has sufficient playerbase, old AoE and C&C has steady (even big) pop as well. Are you trying to say all these people are neckbeards in their mid 50s? Do you imply that currently youngsters aren't biggest pop in SC2 f.e.? The only reason why not too many people play RTS games because:
THERE ARE NO RTS GAMES! There are only few decent ones, rest are utter ++heresy redacted++ or outright non-existent. If there would be more and high quality ones, people will be playing them in heaps, same as in old days. When people will realize this?...
Market is there, demand is there, but marketologists with their useless research keep money hungry publishers and investors away from this genre for no good reason. Kickstarter revived cRPGs, some other less popular genres. I'm sure one day it will revive RTS as well. Key is not to be chasing MOBA or MMO crowd for quick $$$, but to concentrate on target audience and product quality.
Wikkyd
And what about the expansions? That's just them milking the audience? Sure maybe, but they're good expansions. DoW1 and 2 had expansions, I don't feel milked because they were also really good.
TuskaDemonKilla
This is getting ridicolous. Did a blizzard dev eat your tart or something?
SC2 has dates graphics yes, but not that dated. And SC2 going f2p simply means they want to get more new ppl into the MP, probably a reaction to the playerbase and viewership numbers tanking a bit ocercthe last 2 years. Ties in nicely with the big overhaul patch coming after blizzcon that will finally adress stuff weve beem bitching about for 2 years.
And BW remastered has little to do with nostalgia, but everything with Koreans being simply batshkt insane. BW is still their national sport and very much alive. A facelift after 20 years is a smart idea.
Katitof
Yes.
Why?
Because technology, that's why.
Go thank mobile games(which is very often first contact with "gaming" for vast majority of kids) with their instant gratification.
We played and enjoyed RTS as kids, because it was something new to us, we didn't had smart phones, cell phones themselves were rare and as fun as snake was, it didn't stood up to RTS games.
Nowadays kids have smartphones and easy, quick games.
We had limited access to games and games themselves were much, much more challenging.
We, the 30+ gamers are completely different demographic then current teens and below.
Kids nowadays despise or can't enjoy RTS games, because they are simply too hard for them to understand.
For similar reasons, MMORPG genre is decaying - it does not offer instant gratification and requires time and dedication, something millenials do not have as again, they seek for short sessions with quick enjoyment, flat learning curve and instant reward.
We enjoyed impossible to beat games, they enjoy completing a stage in Candy Crash.
steinernein
Bruh, the return on investment for RTS games suck in terms of effort - they really aren't fun unless you have nothing better to do, or if you're autistic aka the rest of us who still play RTS games or you're doing it for the campaign because you happen to like the story. There are simply better options out there.
I'm personally trying to say that you're a special kind of person if you like RTS games, not that you're more or less intelligent, but the demographic is pretty unique because the games are almost inherently anti fun. So, the amount of people you capture is going to be relatively the same if you stick with the 'traditional' formula aka not enough to warrant sustaining unless you have a blockbuster franchise (and even Blizzard is starting to cave in).
The entire concept of a RTS is, in its 'purest' form, is pretty stupid too and demands too much for too little. It's one of those things that people would rather watch than play and, arguably, it's not that watchable in some cases.
Also, if you want to look at the grand scheme of things, the percentage count of RTS players in relation to the overall population is almost logarithmic, it might as well be a constant. When you had a low number of gamers, it certainly was a titan in the sea of genres, but as you expand the population the growth is barely there.
View a RTS from an outsider perspective and you'll know why it's a ++heresy redacted++ genre and why those who are thoroughly in love with it will try to seek out other mechanics even if it means turning to MOBAs or whatever else to attract more people. The amount of people left in the RTS crowd who actually play is depressing.