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Killteam Ironmaw vs vipers
snnnffrknlin
It feels wierd to me that they are a 2-point elite that you can call down everywhere(as long as you have the trait) and just select heavy weapons tactics. They need no setup time and only need an a-move order to fire. So you can catch an SM wandering the map with full anti-skimmer capability. No lascannons needs to be deployed or anything.
Now that would maybe not be so bad, but the thing is they two-shot vipers with no upgrades. One rocket and all of the shield is gone and half the HP. This seems way too strong for me since you cannot even fire on them with a hit and run tactic(which skimmers excell in). Even if you early tec and catch the SM off-guard they still have anti-tank.
Isn't killteam just a little too strong for a 2-point elite at least in terms of anti-tank? Stormboyz can stun, but they can't really deal with skimmers reliably. Scorpions cannot really do anything except stealthjump on them and hope they have low enough HP. But killteam can easily kill 3 vipers on their own if not 4(no upgrades).
Comments
孙子兵法
Killteam is good at killing light vehicles and Scorpions and Storm boys can solo LP and shield gen, so its even.
snnnffrknlin
Well drop-pod ASM can solo the LP and gen aswell. So can banshees with rage trait. Regular boyz can take out a gen with a worker. I don't see how much value it adds to these elite that they can solo positions that the opponent is likely to defend. You just need to scout the enemy elite and they can be dealt with. Killteam can shut down skimmer play, just flat shut it down entirely. It's almost impossible to sustain harassment with skimmers on an army if killteam is near since they fire so fast.
I also mentioned that they can take out several skimmers on their own and still be ok. You are lucky if stormboyz and scorpions can even take out one. This does not seem equal to me at all considering what the elites bring to the table.
tritol
now try comparing how rocket kill team fights against melee units or infantry in general and how bad are scorps and stormboyz at fighting infantry squads ... doesnt seem equal to me .. I say nerf eldar
Katitof
I suppose you are yet to discover scout stun nades, tactical frag nades and kill team vortex nades.
Its not dueling game or moba, that kill team won't bhe there alone.
Auni
Yeah killteam is a good allround unit!
But atleast in 1vs1, stormboy and scorpionknight counter killteam in a direkt fight!
Also in the first teamfight, its a little bit trcky as SM i would say .
But on the other hand, SM can defend very well, espacialy in midgame, its very frustrating to play against sm's!
If you want to engage a LP against sm you have to commit with your full army all the time.
This open up a counter attack option for your opponent , or just the option to defend the spot!
Why ? Simple, droppods, flag, barracks near every ressource location.
And ofcourse a Killteam elite from the sky, with the ability to call another elite near of him!
So if you herass with just a few units against a LP espacialy since last patch (lp buff) can cost you the game allready .
Cause shoot while moving, slow granate , and droppods!
So overall, killteam is fine .
If there is a problem , its the ability to call it down everywhere on the field + summon other elites near of him!
This is maybe to strong in combination with normal drop pods + flag! Espacialy if the sm is allready t2 or t3!
Knockback on flag is annoying in fights espacialy for units with a low attack speed, in generall all weaponteams .
Cause they need to build up the weapon to shoot!
r3 flag (heal) is just op
snnnffrknlin
But they 2-shot vipers. That is 375 armor-piercing damage per rocket don't you think that is over the top? They outpeform regular anti-tank infantry, since they need no setup time, except for tank bustaz, which they deal as much damage per salvo I think. Do you not have any issue with them hard countering a tier 2 vehicle with a 4-min elite? Skimmers hard counters the other two elites.
Katitof
Kill team missile launcher also snares for couple of seconds on top of raw damage.
Its most flexible and powerful 2EP elite and its power SCALES the stronger opposing unit is.
Their votex nades deal % based damage, which means that even with regular bolter, they are able to deal TREMENDOUS amounts of damage to 9-10 EP elites once vortex lands on them.
For how well KT scales, its one of the most OP elites in the game.
Auni
@katitof
against sm player you won't play with a paladin.
Sm's has to much option's to stunlock a paladin and nuke him down, espacialy with ultimate!
Its better to play without titan against a SM player, to hit a strong attack early on!
Killteam is pretty decent thats correct.
And also they are a super allround unit, sm is in generall designed to counter everythink relativ easy!
Still i do not think killteam is overall overpowered!
like i wrote before, if something is op on SM side, its about doktrin stacking tacs and droppods+flag in generall!
Cause this allow sm player to defend way to easy, and i do not understand why a race with droppods get a elite with the ability to summon everywhere on the field+ other elites near of him!
its not very well designed, but hey, alot of things are weird in this game ! we should not think to much about it lol
snnnffrknlin
But they only use two shots to kill a viper. It doesn't matter if you kill models off them either since they only have one missile launcher so the damage is the same. This makes them capable of killing multiple vipers. They can proably smack down several land speeders too. You say that the drop pod potential they bring is too strong and I would agree, but do you really see no problem with them destroying light-vehicles at the same rate as anti-vehicle infantry? Maybe even better than regular anti-vehicle infantry since they have huge meele dps aswell and a slow grenade for some crowd controll.
That it is not very well designed as you say is sort of the point. In my opinion this elite is way too strong for the roles it can fulfill, even if you address the drop pod potential this elite is still way better than it's counterparts. I say again they shut down skimmer play entirely. What other 2-point elite does that? The other two gets hard-countered by them.
Katitof
That was simply an example of how effective KT is.
Martin
In the same time a killteam gets to fire 2 rockets a las cannon team could probably also kill a vyper, I dont see the fuss over killteam in particular. Them being able to droppod in is not that much of an issue since you can see/hear droppods coming and vyper is fast and can fly away. Las cannons can be put in droppods too btw. I dont see why the fuss over killteam in particular.
jonoliveira12
It is a super squad that comes into play for free, at the 4 minute mark. None of the other 2 pointers have nearly as much relevance or transition so well into late game.
If you pick Scorpions or Stormboyz, you are essentially forcing yourself to win early game, or go into midgame with an Elite choice that has outlived it's usefulness. With Kill Team, this does not happen. They are always good, at every stage, and synergize with other Elites, which is incredibly broken.
Not to mention that they can CC entire armies, readying then for either nukes from other Elites, or for a sure-kill with the Orbital Bombardment. SM just has way too much usefulness crammed into everything, and that makes them OP, since they have to invest relatively little, in order to just counter everything.
snnnffrknlin
One rocket deals 375 armour-piercing damage. That is all of the shield of the viper and half the HP. The viper doesn't just have to fly away it needs to go back to reshield and repair, so you put it out of use for the engagement. You are correct however that a las cannon can almost kill a viper in the same time if the viper stands still. They will kill it faster if they get to charge up.
However if they need to setup their weapon, say when they are on the move with the main blob, I can swoop in and fire and swoop out taking minimal damage maintaining my shield. Killteam takes one missile and blam, that viper has to go or otherwise heavy bolters or really almost any unit except meele focused ones can take them out. Also keep in mind that Killteam always has a missile launcher regardless of HP. Kill a model and another picks it up. A las cannon squad drops in dps if you kill one model and they only have three of them. I don't have to kill a full team of tank bustaz, shadow spectres or a las cannon really if its only one model left. Killteam will fire that 375-damage missile as long as they draw breath.
The reason I am making a fuss is that Killteam shuts them down on their own and they are a 4-min elite. Why is this not a fuss to you that a 4-min elite can counter skimmers? And if you factor the HP pool, they are more effecient at skimmers because of you have to kill every model in order to remove the threat. So one Killteam can kill several vipers, think of how much power that is. 4 vipers cannot kill them so that is a 2-point elite dealing with 500 power(On their own as in a stand and shoot at the other guy scenario, no upgrades for vipers). You will never get that sort of value from neither Scorpions or Stormboyz.
Remember that vipers are not burst damage they need to fire continuesly in order to be usefull. Yes, their true damage rocket is not enough when there is only 1-2 vipers they need to fire their machine guns too. Also bear in mind that haste(The defensive trait to vipers) triggers after getting shot, so it's possible that Killtem gets full value out of their missile before the damage reduction kicks in.
I say again, the other two elites are heavy countered by skimmers. If you micro vipers they CANNOT beat them, not even one. Please try vipers against Space Marines and see for yourself. The tac-spam meta should be heavily succectible to them and yet they are not because of that elite alone. You can handle one las cannon team maybe two, but the elite can be extremly hard to catch and put out of use for longer periods of time. They are no push over in meele either, anti-vehicle infantry is.
DerCremige
Killteam is way too strong, its known for quite some time now, at least to better players
Katitof
Meanwhile, it was buffed at least 2 times while stormboyz were nerfed and scorps were changed into regular banshees with stealth.
Ggjustice
I dont believe the problem is KT its just that vipers are very weak . Compared to lets say copters or land speeder.... which have kinda same roles and 2 times tankier? in duel viper will always lose.... KT is still strongest 2 elite ingame amd kinda op for its cost...