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choosing between big new content or a rework
3 years ago
aghabozorg
hi everyone.i really want to know what will you choose so please answer.consider these 2 options for dow3:
1)the core of the game remains the same and relic add more content(new races+game mod+units+elites...) and also balancing it
2)they start to rework the gameplay (for example making lots of doctorins as upgrades or try to add squad leaders and other things)
ok now what will you choose?
i pick (1) and i think lots of people who still didnt buy the game are waiting for more content (specially their favorite race) and they dont care much about other details
2
Comments
satan6666666
jonoliveira12
More content.
A rework will never get more attention, and what this game really lacks, is more factions, units, Elites, campaigns (and campaign types), and MP modes.
Spirit
More content yeah. Also i like the game how it is so for me a rework would not make sense. More content is needed, we still need more maps and more unit variety. The balance is on a good way but still needs tweaks. 3 races for a dow game is just not enough, this game surely and definitely needs more races and units as i said before.
I think dow3 is not dead yet, it sold pretty well and alot of people are just waiting for more races. Also alot of people want more content like tls or a better campaign. If relic would really decide to let dow3 go down with 3 races only then this would be the last product that i ever bought from them thats pretty sure.
Thunderhost
S4ngetsu
Why not a mix between 1 and 2 ? It's not hard to make doctrines as upgrades ingame, i would like that...
Ololo111
1), of course.
Relic've got CoH2 physical engine and super flexible conventionts at the base of the game. They can introduce most of the things people are missing by adding them (yes, including buildable covers and unit upgrades faction-wise), without changing existing content drastically (guys, face it: it should have been a hell of balancing work to put EP2-4 Elites into the game, spare their effort - it doesn't have to be Elites for other factions in the future).
Draconix
I think some of dissatisfied fans like Stoner or StarSauron might choose 2, but I personally choose 1, because I don't care so much about mechanics, I'm simply try to adapt to them. And I like new content, especially new races.
CANNED_F3TUS
Lude
I think people's notion of what a 'big' rework would entail will be very different. I would like to see some changes to the resource system, and the way doctrines and elites function, but this doesn't even require adding new things to the game, so definitely should not be 'instead' of content!
Even though I'd like to see this I would never choose it over Necrons and new maps and a VP mode.
Stoner
Good thread, I'd like to have such poll from devs themselves (if they are really interested in community opinion), but to answer OP question, I choose 2. I'll explain why:
From what r_benb said, we can speculate that Relic haven't started working on any content yet. By definition of content I suspect people mean new race (with new campaign maybe?), not more skins or couple of new Elites. To be very optimistic, making such content as new race should take around ~6 months. To be realistic: ~1 year from now on. I'm afraid that even if Relic will start working on new content ASAP, it will be dead on arrival. To top it off, people don't leave few months post release because of lack of content, 3 races with so many Elites, Doctrine and new maps with custom ones should be more than enough to hold many players for 6+ months easily, but dropoff started literally since first month. So my point is:
Biggest dissatisfaction with this game is its current mechanics, even if some people don't wanna admit it, or just don't realize it. If you slap new content on top of it, mechanics won't change. So it would be much more productive to tweak mechanics so game becomes fun to play as it is and only then concentrate on new big content which will have at least some playerbase to be interested in. Tweaking game mechanics shouldn't be very time consuming in comparison to developing brand new race with tons of new features, Elites and stuff. And if it won't be possible to set mechanics straight so game becomes enjoyable by majority, there could be no expansion in the world that will save it.
Draconix
Maybe expansion won't save Dow3 without some mechanics tweaks, Stoner, but at least it will satisfy me and even more, if it will come with new race because I really wanted Dow3 to have at least a single expansion with new race. Don't get me wrong, I simply like when RTS game I like, gets a new content, especially new races.
Stoner
I'm very happy you can wait a year or more for expansion to come, I really am. I see that you don't care much about gameplay mechanics, because those who do are mostly interested in online anyway. Vs. AI it is irrelevant here. But you see, if Relic will be opting for players who looking for game that they can casually play once a month or so vs. AI, they won't make any profit, because one big part of players looking for competition and alive, thriving online community, while other big part of players are looking for high quality single player content with replayability value. Not half-arsed AI who can't even be customized and can't play for ++heresy redacted++, and not campaign which literally everyone bash, and rightfully so. With this approach game considered DEAD, and DEAD game means no more content, no expansion, no DOW IV, NO NOTHING! To make it perfectly clear: game is multiplayer focused. You are alone, you can't buy ~100k copies of this game a year to sustain it's development costs, that's why it need loads of players, more the merrier. See?
CANNED_F3TUS
I whole heartedly disagree on almost everything you just said.
CANNED_F3TUS
This topic has been beatin dead. Nassir.
Armor and damage types suck for gameplay they dont create builds they create cheeze. Garrisonable buildings dont add builds or variety. This is just another mechanic that didnt work in the DoW games. Look at DoW 2 for reference.
Draconix
With all respect, competiveness is important for a healthy community, but not everyone is suitable for multi. Besides I understand that low playercount lowers chance for more content, but hey, game is truly dead when devs cease to support it. I saw Ashes of Singularity having fewer players, yet it is still supported with updates. And it has to get more of it.
To be honest it is important to have healthy community, but you can't please everyone and Relic already knows that. Besides trying to cater new fans sometimes could to offend older fans, just like what happened with Warhammer Fantasy when it becamed Age of Sigmar. So sometimes it might be a better for Dow3 to try continue with updates with its small, but estabilished fanbase, since Dow1 fans have already Dow1 while Dow2 fans has already Dow2. Trying to cater one of them might piss off some of those who stayed with Dow3.
I know that there might be not a expansion, but still I can play Dow3. Thanks to the fact that I prefer vs AI I could play many RTS including those unapprecciated by most, like Act of Aggression or Grey Goo. In the end, everyone has a own tastes, doesn't it?
Draconix
By the way the thread has slighty derailed so let's back to tracks.
Katitof
There is only so many times we can have this exact same discussion with the exact same arguments.
Just print it yourself and re-read it every time it comes up as these arguments did not changed.
Your suggestions are nothing more then over complicating things and making them impossible to balance in the process(which BOTH previous DoWs as well as CoH1 are hard, undisputed proofs of) or just utterly pointless(why would squad leaders exist when they wouldn't be allowed their own weapon, because that messes up balance and why would you take 5 squad leaders instead of 6th squad? Why would abilities be tied to them, when that's exactly what doctrines do) and lastly, adding stuff for the sake of adding stuff results in utter mess, for reference, check out oh so praised UA mod for DoW1, which has everything but 90% of all of that is utterly redundant.
CANNED_F3TUS
DoW 2 is also a totally different game than DoW 3. DoW 2 is more like a RPG RTT game than a traditional RTS game.
In DoW 2 the units you build will be with you till the end of the game they have to have a ++heresy redacted++ ton of options.
DoW 3 is more of a game of army compositions. You need a mix of units to have all your weaknesses covered. Just because infantry are not multi purpose doesnt mean they are weak or 1 dimensional. There are quite a few multi purpose units in DoW 3. But they are usually not as spammable or easy to use. You gotta use brains using these units as well as making sure you got your roles covered. You see a guy adding vehicles to his army you are gonna have to build AV squads. Somebody using arty to shoot at your troops from afar get some skimmers to pick em off. Etc etc.
Maybe it wont hurt. Maybe it will we dont know. All i know is adding even 1 more armor or damage type will require reworking a crap ton of units cause now you have to put percentages on everything. How much damage is this gonna do to that bla bla bla. Now you gotta do this to every single unit. Thats alot of work.... Thats why DoW 2 was a mess.
I said that Armor and damage types open up ways to exploit and cheeze the game. Buildings are not cheeze.
Building were simply useless in DoW 2. Because there were to many brutal counters to garrisons and easy to counter at that.
Except against nids or lonely heros in the first few minutes thats the only time garrisons were powerful and useful. I get it you want more things you can interact with on the battlefields but something like buildings are pretty tough to implement in DoW.
Thunderhost
The more complex you make a game (e.g many armortypes), the more inaccessible it will be for casual players. Most of us who involve us in these discussions are NOT casual players.
For a game to thrive, I'd argue you need a casual playerbase. So maybe that's what we should try and mitigate?
Personally I like many of the aspects of the game as it is now, but a huge turn-off is the fact that there are certain builds which are just better or very hard to counter (from a 2v2/3v3 perspective). This is one of the reasons that it's hard getting new players; they don't know the meta and they never will, as they get steamrolled and drop quickly, at least from my experience..
And I have no idea how you fix this..
GuruSkippy
New content won't work without rework.
Rework won't work without new content.
If I really must chose one, I'd go for a rework. Dow3 just doesn't make it in its current form. New content won't change anything about that.
Ololo111
A simple solution with a long premise - allow to reduce gamespeed in custom and make people aware of it.
The most casual thing in DoW2\CoH2 of the past is excessive RNG. And the most frustating\fascinating, depending on outcome, as well, so it brings you nothing if the game is decided on anything but "skill". Apparently, people who don't want to develop it want more of estatic, than of a challenge. The more you're devoted to the last one, the more frustating is to lose.
Personally, when I was playing vDoW, I was overwhelmed by it's scenary. The music, voice-over (even though it wasn't half as good as original English was), animations and especially Chaos. I could totally forgot of the game when looking at Defiler grabbing it's victim, tearing their head off and tossing the body away like a finished sigarette. I was underaged by that time and it left some strong effect on me (pretty much like the Nazi propaganda of the eastern front - it was displayed to us at school durring history lessons - being way more empressive than the Soviet one, while I clearly understood it meant nothing good for the people it was producted for).
It didn't really mattered for me whether I would win or lose. Basically, I was logging in into vDoW for the feel (and to escape the pressure of my "competitve" buds from Generals), so it was evenly ok to play vs AI (which I've happened to do around 60-70% times total, I repent). DoW wasn't the first title I "got carried away with". AoM got nice dynamic music played when assalutting Town Centers
I guess, it's very personal, but with the time idea to beat the ++heresy redacted++ out of opponent won in my mind, I got frustated and bored over vDoW in my own terms. Those very dynamic bg's by 2009 had became the very reason I'd been turning the whole music off - there was a winning song triggered score-based in Ra3
. No matter how many people in lobbies found themselves delighted with it, that song was a nightmare to me - it contained words and was super loud = was too much of distraction at that very moment when you were supposed to "finish off" your opponent (it started when you have way more units than your opponent, but the thing is that some T3 units like Commando, Kirov and Shogun are too much of a threat by themselves).
It was fun to place your camera behind Cultists backs charging into the last attack when you was winning by CL's in DoW1, but not anymore. A lot of streamers are rotating camera all over the Stukas in the very same manner in CoH2 to make an emphasys on that sound and the look of the rockets being sent away. But what actual players do by that time? Likely, issuing Stukas barrages throught Shift and looking at killcount some time later, because they had their hands full with the things. The more developed mechanical part of the game is, the less time you get to appreciate it looks.
DoW1 bg music by itself is still on a level better than DoW3 ambient one for me. But, god, there is simply no place for it in an actual gameplay right now. You're performing a ton of decissions in DoW3 comparring with vDoW (won't say for the modded ones) - it would be too much of distraction for me, even more then chatty allies in team-games.
But, for a second, decrease gamespeed in a half and, sudddenly, you may actually receive some time to appreciate moments like that one
It literally lasted for 4 seconds: droppod animation, knockback animation, units comming on their feets - for 4 seconds of display only. You may not belive me, but ASM got pretty good animation of jump, too (how they are gaining attitude, slowing down and then landing with acceleration). There is simply no time to pay attention to the things like that (I can continue the list with Big Trukk siege-mode attack, Jain Zar's leap and many others). Mechanic-wise, it would be way easier to play like that as well.
Ololo111
And the parser broke timestamp on DoW3 video. It's 23:43.
HeyGringo
Draconix if you like RTS games buy coh 1 rhe best game relic made.
Its costs very little and each race is unique.
Sorwind
Reworking the gameplay is more preferably for me. Because RTS is not a game about spam the same unit type. I see that strategic part of DoW3 has sunk into oblivion.