Your eldar ++heresy redacted++ are so stupid that can't even see the more evident totally broken thing in the game just cause it belongs to you. Well, keep playing alone again, I had a lot of fun coming back for some days, then got 2 rangers spam in 1vs1 and I am out again.
I'm feeling a certain bias here. Out of curosity @Bigamo , have you ever played Eldar? Experimented with asymetric build orders?? Tried being roflstomped by tacspam done right???
I can see some of your points, and I'll even concede that you're on point at times regarding balance. But everything in moderation and threatening to leave just to come back.. That gets stale after awhile.
Enjoy your games
I normally hate bigamos rants, but I agree with him in this instance. Rangers are overpowered, especially in Eldar mirrors, and they are completely game breaking in 3v3.
However, I think snipers are a little too powerful as well.
Rangers counter every unit in Eldar tier 1, and the only counter is to spam rangers yourself. You cannot have a powerful unit, and make the counter more of that unit. That is horrible game design that encourages spam!
What I would do to start
1. Rangers no longer start with stealth
2. Ranger unlock cost reduced
3. Add stealth as a ranger upgrade
4. Remove the infantry health buffs to snipers and rangers. Let them keep the increased damage.
If rangers are still too strong, I would also reduce their speed outside of FoF
^^The irony when you realize snipers weren't even buffed.
The rangers attack increase scaled with the units health increase, so they are the relative same. There's just more 'time before unit death' from more hp (meaning if your micro sucked you feel like it's better because you have time to respond now).
So what happened over the months of play to make people change opinion? lol
Still points at people being stupid and whining about a loss with no IQ to comprehend a simple game mechanic. There's many ways to defeat a gay sniper blob even if you have to pull out an early game elite to do it.
Losing vs 'ranger spam' just shows you thought you were good and lost to some random guy cuz you do not have good "skill retention" when not constantly spam playing RTS games.
@esleg said:
^^The irony when you realize snipers weren't even buffed.
The rangers attack increase scaled with the units health increase, so they are the relative same. There's just more 'time before unit death' from more hp (meaning if your micro sucked you feel like it's better because you have time to respond now).
So what happened over the months of play to make people change opinion? lol
Still points at people being stupid and whining about a loss with no IQ to comprehend a simple game mechanic. There's many ways to defeat a gay sniper blob even if you have to pull out an early game elite to do it.
Losing vs 'ranger spam' just shows you thought you were good and lost to some random guy cuz you do not have good "skill retention" when not constantly spam playing RTS games.
why are you so stupid?
Everything else in the game dies slower, everything but the target of rangers. That are faster, infiltrated, can reveal for thenselves and have anti bleed mechanic.
why isn't this topic in balance feedback if my got moved to "sugestions"? pff.
Thing is, snipers already killed slow and post patch they kill even slower.
However its a long range unit, so careful play allows for stacking attrition on opponent while avoiding it for yourself.
CoH series solves it with light vehicles excelling at finding and killing snipers, however we don't have any of that in DoW3.
Snipers were equally powerful in DoW2 as well, but it wasn't an issue because you couldn't make a critical mass of them.
Low damage, low durability, long range units will always feel powerful when massed and not rushed.
@Darkstirling said:
I normally hate bigamos rants, but I agree with him in this instance. Rangers are overpowered, especially in Eldar mirrors, and they are completely game breaking in 3v3.
However, I think snipers are a little too powerful as well.
Rangers counter every unit in Eldar tier 1, and the only counter is to spam rangers yourself. You cannot have a powerful unit, and make the counter more of that unit. That is horrible game design that encourages spam!
What I would do to start
1. Rangers no longer start with stealth
2. Ranger unlock cost reduced
3. Add stealth as a ranger upgrade
4. Remove the infantry health buffs to snipers and rangers. Let them keep the increased damage.
If rangers are still too strong, I would also reduce their speed outside of FoF
specially in eldar mirrors my ++heresy redacted++, Eldar can at least counter spam, sm and orks can just die. SM even worst as we don't have stormboys or trukks.
"Why am I so stupid" isn't really answering the question of "why do you have such low skill retention". You're always claiming every month that the underpowered thing is now overpowered or some bs. It's just stating your own frustrations. Humble yourself.
The counter to 'sniper spam' is to attack them repeatedly before they do it, and otherwise, to kill their weak blob in numerous ways so they do not utilize it. It's pretty 'strong' but not unbeatable.. they have to wait before they even spawn their first unit. They have to amass more of them to be any threat, and they still get countered, that is the definition of underpowered.
Not to mention an early elite pretty much crushes them .. one mismove and they lose like 50% of their units from something like StormBoyz , Macha, (SM has to turtle and use cover more). You can avoid a massive defeat at least balance out the field until teammates get involved for 3v3, not lose your 1v1. Some things that come to mind: deathstorms, asms, scout marines; truk spam, nobz; cover usage; don't make weak cripple units, do rangers or banshees as eldar. 1 vehicle/heavy inf unit is practically going to be immune from snipers if you turtle and get it out, and they will be severely behind in energy consumption.
@Bigamo said:
You can't reach a faster moving unit with a slower unit. And you can just press untill the shield gen, there you can't pass and the rangers can destroy everything, it's not possible to even touch then if the abuser have any skill don't matter how much skill the abused have, since Imbarangers are faster.
Yeah too bad SM don't have jump troops, infiltrated infantry with stun 'nades or a HERETICAL Elite that can be called ANYWHERE on the field. Poor poor derp marines.
Ever tried to wait for the "imbarangers" to get out on the field and stun 'nade them then drop some ASM's on 'em? Last I checked Rangers weren't kung fu masters.
GREAT damage reduction.
instead of outright damage dealer rangers should become a SUPPORT unit, a infiltrated spotter that buffs the army, each unit hit by a ranger shoot takes 25% extra damage from every other eldar source. (or another number, need to try, for sure thats a guess).
But that would let loldar with a HUGE problem against Setup teams, as Rangers are they proper counter to Setup teams so they could receive a new PASSIVE skill called:
KINETIC SHOOT:
Gives knock down effect on SETUP team while setup, giving the oppening dor the eldar army to enter and ++heresy redacted++ the opponent.
So Rangers would be a support unit that scout and buff the army without being massable (the actuall ranger buff should NOT stack).
Hell no. DoW3 is the first game where rangers are actually useful.
Should they have clearer counters? Maybe, but their primary role should be killing infantry.
Hell no. DoW3 is the first game where rangers are actually useful.
Should they have clearer counters? Maybe, but their primary role should be killing infantry.
Yep, they sure are good at killing infantry - and buildings - and generators - and light vehicles, all in T1 at which stage they cannot be countered.
So you have already lost by attrition and economy before any semblance of a counter comes out.
Same story every game, they just stay out of range and bleed you to death by 1000 cuts.
I think they need to do less (read 0) damage against gens, buildings and vehicles, so at least trucks have some value against them and they can't r ape your economy as well as your army. Make them anti-infantry like they're supposed to be, not anti everything.
@JakeMuss said:
I think they need to do less (read 0) damage against gens, buildings and vehicles, so at least trucks have some value against them and they can't r ape your economy as well as your army. Make them anti-infantry like they're supposed to be, not anti everything.
@JakeMuss said:
I think they need to do less (read 0) damage against gens, buildings and vehicles, so at least trucks have some value against them and they can't r ape your economy as well as your army. Make them anti-infantry like they're supposed to be, not anti everything.
4 DPS per squad against heavy armor is too much to handle?
Come on.
They are "effective" against heavy armor only if you completely ignore them and let them do work.
10 rangers/snipers will have a bit over HALF of DPS against heavy armor as ONE las cannon dev squad will.
Don't exaggerate, we have numbers and they aren't hard to interpret.
One of the biggest issues with sniper/ranger spam is Power Core Mode IMO. Technically in Annihilation you can freely chase them to base with Melee and slaughter them. This could make going for mass long ranged troops very risky move, because they are completely defenseless against melee, and this might downscale an issue a bit, because they become real problem when massed, like many things in this game. With Power Core it is very easy to play it safe, and especially with Rangers, as they are fast + shadowstep, can hide behind turrets, and even if you go superagressive bashing their gen, while cracking force field, your army will be decimated with attrition. Chasing any ranged troops with melee, not only snipers, have very negative trade ratio, because near base you will always have to disengage, and even with ASM jump you risking loss of 2-3 models, while Shees and Boyz risking full squad wipe once they turn their backs.
I'm pretty sure Annihilation may encourage more varied builds, because you won't have safe spot where you can always hide and you will need more mixed army types to be mobile, have defenders (like setup teams) and there would be far less risk engaging with melee. Also there would be less incentive of taking down Gen, which gives insane reward and only contributing to snowballing. This could make fighting more around the map and engagements more tactical in general. Some folks say that Power Core encourages more aggressive play styles, but that's complete BS, because general design of this game already dictates very aggressive playstyle. If you don't have biggest piece of the map - you lose. There's no way you can pull off victory while sitting on your naturals. Why would player need even more incentive to get out and fight?...
Power of Core is bad. The main reason is you get so much free res that generally wins you and your team the game (since everyone gets that resource boost). If there's any imbalance it becomes 2x as much.. then 3x as they take all the other power cores. If you can't do the same it's over.
Bigtoe needs to stop whining and making a thread when he loses. Next thread from him will likely be: BONESINGERS, HOW TO BEAT? 3 paragraphs explaining how a high skill rts player with better "skill retention" just hopped into the game and beat him.
Ranger's biggest flaw is the time to produce and amass them together, which of course means if you can get ANY utility against them, they've lost. You can also rush them, probably 2 units attacking before they even finish producing 1 ranger. I listed many things you can do. They're putting all their energy req into rangers and upgrades to try to win, so you have to think and respond to it. Even if they push you off eventually you should be able to defend well enough to come back with thingies snipers can't even put dents in. It's only annoying if you are in a team game and your teammate doesn't know how to cope with it.
@esleg said:
They're putting all their energy req into rangers and upgrades to try to win, so you have to think and respond to it. Even if they push you off eventually you should be able to defend well enough to come back with thingies snipers can't even put dents in. It's only annoying if you are in a team game and your teammate doesn't know how to cope with it.
Really??
By the time your 'thingy' comes out, it is too late. Your T1 army is wiped, your gens are wiped, your economy is wrecked. They have tech advantage now too and have already transitioned to counter units for your 'thingy' - GG.
I don't understand why snipers aren't just a much harder unit to get but super powerful, why don't they just make snipers like 30 power but do lots of damage to infantry and even less to vehicles, less spam overall, more time to reach critcal mass, and easier to counter.
I'd like to have a limit of 3 ranger with decreased damage but also with removed research. More of a support unit rather than kill everything unit with vigor.
@S4ngetsu said:
I gotta say tho playing against ranger and sniper spam is anti fun and should be still fixed even if it's balanced and can be countered.
It's not anti fun at all, i burst into laughs when i face such worthless players and it's a 80% win for me not spamming anything.
Find that ranger that I may water the ground with his blood!
@esleg said:
^^The irony when you realize snipers weren't even buffed.
The rangers attack increase scaled with the units health increase, so they are the relative same. There's just more 'time before unit death' from more hp (meaning if your micro sucked you feel like it's better because you have time to respond now).
So what happened over the months of play to make people change opinion? lol
Still points at people being stupid and whining about a loss with no IQ to comprehend a simple game mechanic. There's many ways to defeat a gay sniper blob even if you have to pull out an early game elite to do it.
Losing vs 'ranger spam' just shows you thought you were good and lost to some random guy cuz you do not have good "skill retention" when not constantly spam playing RTS games.
why are you so stupid?
Everything else in the game dies slower, everything but the target of rangers. That are faster, infiltrated, can reveal for thenselves and have anti bleed mechanic.
why isn't this topic in balance feedback if my got moved to "sugestions"? pff.
Thing is, snipers already killed slow and post patch they kill even slower.
However its a long range unit, so careful play allows for stacking attrition on opponent while avoiding it for yourself.
CoH series solves it with light vehicles excelling at finding and killing snipers, however we don't have any of that in DoW3.
Snipers were equally powerful in DoW2 as well, but it wasn't an issue because you couldn't make a critical mass of them.
Low damage, low durability, long range units will always feel powerful when massed and not rushed.
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Comments
Katitof
If your ability to play the game is equal to your ability to get the point, I'm not surprised you're struggling so much....
S4ngetsu
Oh I get the point now. You seem like a typical ranger spammer ++heresy redacted++ to me who is scared to lose ranks if it gets nerfed.
Thunderhost
I'm feeling a certain bias here. Out of curosity @Bigamo , have you ever played Eldar? Experimented with asymetric build orders?? Tried being roflstomped by tacspam done right???
I can see some of your points, and I'll even concede that you're on point at times regarding balance. But everything in moderation and threatening to leave just to come back.. That gets stale after awhile.
Enjoy your games
Darkstirling
I normally hate bigamos rants, but I agree with him in this instance. Rangers are overpowered, especially in Eldar mirrors, and they are completely game breaking in 3v3.
However, I think snipers are a little too powerful as well.
Rangers counter every unit in Eldar tier 1, and the only counter is to spam rangers yourself. You cannot have a powerful unit, and make the counter more of that unit. That is horrible game design that encourages spam!
What I would do to start
1. Rangers no longer start with stealth
2. Ranger unlock cost reduced
3. Add stealth as a ranger upgrade
4. Remove the infantry health buffs to snipers and rangers. Let them keep the increased damage.
If rangers are still too strong, I would also reduce their speed outside of FoF
esleg
^^The irony when you realize snipers weren't even buffed.
The rangers attack increase scaled with the units health increase, so they are the relative same. There's just more 'time before unit death' from more hp (meaning if your micro sucked you feel like it's better because you have time to respond now).
So what happened over the months of play to make people change opinion? lol
Still points at people being stupid and whining about a loss with no IQ to comprehend a simple game mechanic. There's many ways to defeat a gay sniper blob even if you have to pull out an early game elite to do it.
Losing vs 'ranger spam' just shows you thought you were good and lost to some random guy cuz you do not have good "skill retention" when not constantly spam playing RTS games.
Katitof
Thing is, snipers already killed slow and post patch they kill even slower.
However its a long range unit, so careful play allows for stacking attrition on opponent while avoiding it for yourself.
CoH series solves it with light vehicles excelling at finding and killing snipers, however we don't have any of that in DoW3.
Snipers were equally powerful in DoW2 as well, but it wasn't an issue because you couldn't make a critical mass of them.
Low damage, low durability, long range units will always feel powerful when massed and not rushed.
esleg
"Why am I so stupid" isn't really answering the question of "why do you have such low skill retention". You're always claiming every month that the underpowered thing is now overpowered or some bs. It's just stating your own frustrations. Humble yourself.
The counter to 'sniper spam' is to attack them repeatedly before they do it, and otherwise, to kill their weak blob in numerous ways so they do not utilize it. It's pretty 'strong' but not unbeatable.. they have to wait before they even spawn their first unit. They have to amass more of them to be any threat, and they still get countered, that is the definition of underpowered.
Not to mention an early elite pretty much crushes them .. one mismove and they lose like 50% of their units from something like StormBoyz , Macha, (SM has to turtle and use cover more). You can avoid a massive defeat at least balance out the field until teammates get involved for 3v3, not lose your 1v1. Some things that come to mind: deathstorms, asms, scout marines; truk spam, nobz; cover usage; don't make weak cripple units, do rangers or banshees as eldar. 1 vehicle/heavy inf unit is practically going to be immune from snipers if you turtle and get it out, and they will be severely behind in energy consumption.
-from a natural master to ascrub
SykA
Yeah too bad SM don't have jump troops, infiltrated infantry with stun 'nades or a HERETICAL Elite that can be called ANYWHERE on the field. Poor poor derp marines.
Ever tried to wait for the "imbarangers" to get out on the field and stun 'nade them then drop some ASM's on 'em? Last I checked Rangers weren't kung fu masters.
Achernar
Hell no. DoW3 is the first game where rangers are actually useful.
Should they have clearer counters? Maybe, but their primary role should be killing infantry.
JakeMuss
Yep, they sure are good at killing infantry - and buildings - and generators - and light vehicles, all in T1 at which stage they cannot be countered.
So you have already lost by attrition and economy before any semblance of a counter comes out.
Same story every game, they just stay out of range and bleed you to death by 1000 cuts.
I think they need to do less (read 0) damage against gens, buildings and vehicles, so at least trucks have some value against them and they can't r ape your economy as well as your army. Make them anti-infantry like they're supposed to be, not anti everything.
Achernar
Now that's a reasonable suggestion.
Katitof
4 DPS per squad against heavy armor is too much to handle?
Come on.
They are "effective" against heavy armor only if you completely ignore them and let them do work.
10 rangers/snipers will have a bit over HALF of DPS against heavy armor as ONE las cannon dev squad will.
Don't exaggerate, we have numbers and they aren't hard to interpret.
Stoner
One of the biggest issues with sniper/ranger spam is Power Core Mode IMO. Technically in Annihilation you can freely chase them to base with Melee and slaughter them. This could make going for mass long ranged troops very risky move, because they are completely defenseless against melee, and this might downscale an issue a bit, because they become real problem when massed, like many things in this game. With Power Core it is very easy to play it safe, and especially with Rangers, as they are fast + shadowstep, can hide behind turrets, and even if you go superagressive bashing their gen, while cracking force field, your army will be decimated with attrition. Chasing any ranged troops with melee, not only snipers, have very negative trade ratio, because near base you will always have to disengage, and even with ASM jump you risking loss of 2-3 models, while Shees and Boyz risking full squad wipe once they turn their backs.
I'm pretty sure Annihilation may encourage more varied builds, because you won't have safe spot where you can always hide and you will need more mixed army types to be mobile, have defenders (like setup teams) and there would be far less risk engaging with melee. Also there would be less incentive of taking down Gen, which gives insane reward and only contributing to snowballing. This could make fighting more around the map and engagements more tactical in general. Some folks say that Power Core encourages more aggressive play styles, but that's complete BS, because general design of this game already dictates very aggressive playstyle. If you don't have biggest piece of the map - you lose. There's no way you can pull off victory while sitting on your naturals. Why would player need even more incentive to get out and fight?...
esleg
Power of Core is bad. The main reason is you get so much free res that generally wins you and your team the game (since everyone gets that resource boost). If there's any imbalance it becomes 2x as much.. then 3x as they take all the other power cores. If you can't do the same it's over.
Bigtoe needs to stop whining and making a thread when he loses. Next thread from him will likely be: BONESINGERS, HOW TO BEAT? 3 paragraphs explaining how a high skill rts player with better "skill retention" just hopped into the game and beat him.
Ranger's biggest flaw is the time to produce and amass them together, which of course means if you can get ANY utility against them, they've lost. You can also rush them, probably 2 units attacking before they even finish producing 1 ranger. I listed many things you can do. They're putting all their energy req into rangers and upgrades to try to win, so you have to think and respond to it. Even if they push you off eventually you should be able to defend well enough to come back with thingies snipers can't even put dents in. It's only annoying if you are in a team game and your teammate doesn't know how to cope with it.
JakeMuss
Really??
By the time your 'thingy' comes out, it is too late. Your T1 army is wiped, your gens are wiped, your economy is wrecked. They have tech advantage now too and have already transitioned to counter units for your 'thingy' - GG.
Spirit
And how did it work to get "thingys" out fast in this game then? https://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar3/replays.php?game=95&show=details&id=326061
That was some really crazy ranger spam so not just a simple spam. Also the enemys were no noobs or such they knew what they were doing.
SykA
@Spirit How DARE you tell and show people that Ranger/Sniper spam can be countered and defeated?
Obvious sarcastic post is obvious
esleg
Because it's possible the pool of players you are looking at are not as good as they claim as usual in many rts games.
Wikkyd
I don't understand why snipers aren't just a much harder unit to get but super powerful, why don't they just make snipers like 30 power but do lots of damage to infantry and even less to vehicles, less spam overall, more time to reach critcal mass, and easier to counter.
S4ngetsu
I'd like to have a limit of 3 ranger with decreased damage but also with removed research. More of a support unit rather than kill everything unit with vigor.
Dandalus
It's not anti fun at all, i burst into laughs when i face such worthless players and it's a 80% win for me not spamming anything.
Find that ranger that I may water the ground with his blood!
Dandalus
Try land speeder, trukk, viper bike.