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Why does warham40k fan base complain so much
TooMuchHair
At first I was pissed off that everyone whines and cries so much, cause everytime relic makes a warhamm40k game I find it amazing. But then I decided, instead of being pissed off, to understans better 40k fans points o wiew.
What they ultimately want is as much content as possible with as many possibilities as possible, because w40k is a huge universe and thats a big part of what makes it great. They also want as much freedom in match as possible so they do all kinds of shiit and all kinds of strategy in the way they want. Thats why dow1 was best recieved. It had the most content and most freedom than all the other dow games. Dow3 doesnt offer that , PC doesnt offer thar. It has too many rules and limitations, which fanbase finds annoying when they play. Relic made all those rules and limitations to make it like an esport game. It also makes the game more toxic (what I personally like), cause then emotions are stronger and you want to win really bad. I like a chalenge like that, I like toxicity in multyplayer games cause then i find myself yelling BOOM at the screen when I destroy an important enemy unit. But thats not what w40k fanbase want from a dow game. They want freedom and endless options on how to aproach a match in their own way. Just like they can in dow1 and just like they can in collecting games workshop models and creatong their own battles.
This is my objective thought on the issue without listing what they want in details like other people do. And I think I got it right on
Comments
LordBingham
Its unfair to compare dow III with dow I plus 3 expansions though, although I do agree that having a wide range of content would be desirable and is one of the downfalls of dow III.
Having said that, there have to be limitations to this for the sake of balance, interesting gameplay and development time so transposing everything from the lore in an accurate fashion into a game is impossible. Sure, you can say Ultimate Apocalypse does that, but that does suffer from balance and roster bloat.
Although some of the criticisms levelled at dow III from the lore perspective, so I guess primarily from 40k fans are a bit ridiculous. Hate to bring up the jumping Gabe things but like plz. In Dow III we had 9 heretics beating up tactical marines, gaunts beating up space marines, the most nible faction (eldar) relying the most heavily on set up teams, etc.
Dow I wasn't much better in some ways with massive watermelon head space marines, Imperial Guardsmen who acted more like PDF, base building itself.
In games there's always gotta be a suspension of disbelief. Its the same with coh2, which is popular with people into WWII history, but in many ways, certainly in terms of core gameplay is ahistorical. I do believe some of the criticism aimed at the game by that fanbase, whilst legitimate, is overblown like all the criticism this game has received generally. Which is a pity because its actually a decent title, but it looks like the support is gone now an
S4ngetsu
True, DoW1 vanilla was probably worse than DoW3 vanilla. But because of such big companies like blizzard the ppl have gotten used to higher quality games and therefore complain when an actually good game like DoW3 but with lower content in comparison comes out.
Bersercker
Wasn't dow 1 vanilla much more e-sportsy? Like better balance and stuff. Afaik it was on WCG too.
Though not having a power core mode and escalation phases is enough for dow1 to be a much better RTS than dow3 can ever be imo.
tritol
you need to go deeper ... first start with the part where whole warhammer universe is just "my dad is better than yours" argument cranked up to 40000 aaaand then it all makes sense, all neckbeards are just bunch of bickering children and thats why there will never be good product ... no matter what product, game, book, codex there will always be bunch of haters, warhammer is like magnet on this sort of people
(I am proud member of this society)
CANNED_F3TUS
You bring up some good points. I sometimes view the 40k community as a bunch of whiny little shits with rediculous expectations for 40k games. Its not only DoW 3 that has gottin flak. Other games get bitched at too. People are declaring inquisitor martyr a flop refunding their money already and it hasnt even officially released yet. I get the concerns surrounding the game but the devs seem like they want to make a quality game. Eternal crusade was another game that primarily failed because the fan base set their expectations to high among other things.
DoW 3 is having a hard time because its in the shadow of DoW 1 and people make unfair comparisons, diss the game for whatever shallow reason with some people having a valid reason why they dont like the game. Granted Relic did screw up some things and they did commit PR suicide on a few instances.
Whats crazy for me is that alot of the 40k community is celebrating BFGA 2 as the second coming of christ although the only thing that game has going for it is the 40k "feel" the rest is trash.
Draconix
Well @Nassir_Amit ,
Everyone can have a setback, even talented studio as Relic. I know they are talented but they are still humans, they have a right to make mistakes.
Even in Blizzard all workers are humans. It is natural to make mistakes.
Jazz_Sandwich
40K is a setting that's both long established and incredibly expansive. Everybody has their dream 40K game and everybody has their pet faction/s. In recent years we've seen an explosive increase in 40K (and warhammer fantasy) games due to more liberal licensing practices by GW and, expectedly, this has resulted in some absolute bog being published. I think the broader 40K community has become a whole lot more defensive as a result, and also as there are a lot more games coming out we can afford to be pickier.
@CANNED_F3TUS
I'd attribute the bile regarding Inquisitor as a symptom of the mess that is early access. I've been watching it with great interest but haven't invested yet myself. I see early access as an issue - it's a means for people to invest concrete cash into a mere promise of a finished game. This gives them a stake in a project about which they likely have their own hopes and expectation, which may be at odds to both what was promised by the developer or even what is reasonable. If people have reasonable and informed expectations it's still not a risk-free purchase because game development doesn't always go as planned, and if they base the purchase on pure hopes (as many dedicated 40K fans will and have) it's tantamount to gambling. When it doesn't work out, they're more than just disappointed, they're down cash.
Azzakye
It wasn't a simple mistake, a mistake is doing something that causes something that was unintended. Relic fully understood the direction they went with DoW 3 so saying they made mistakes is saying that DoW 3 was a mistake.
I hate the game for sure but I won't accept Relic or anyone implying for them and brushing this off as a mistake, it's clear that they didn't and couldn't understand what the or a community wanted.
@CANNED_F3TUS
I don't know about Inquisitor Martyr, but Eternal Crusade was basically a PR nightmare. A literal road map of all intended features to be implemented before release and what did the backers get not even half of that road map. I am sorry that you think that people are self entitled for expecting things but seriously if the developer themselves are making these promises you cant help but raise your expectations unless you are a hardcore skeptic.
CANNED_F3TUS
You are right eternal crusade did mess up with feeding into the whole problem. They did not deliver.
CANNED_F3TUS
>
Personally DoW 3 started ok with content if we compare all the other DoW releases.
There are things that they absolutly can add on to the existing factions rosters. But i wouldnt say they are limited. DoW 3 is a RTS game its not a roleplaying game with options out the ++heresy redacted++. Its one of the reasons why BFGA failed in multiplayer. Too many upgrades, too many abilities to choose from. No way of balancing all that.
Gabes jump is just one tiny part of the game. If people are going to ditch the game because of that they should stay away from anything 40k.
Katitof
40k fan base always complains so much, because what they have in their heads(their own imagination aka strong bias) is being contrasted with what actually is sensible or possible to be done.
Hell, you won't be even able to find 2 people fully agreeing on what 40k actually is.
That's the "problem" with IP that was never visualized in any way.
Star Wars for example never had that problem as despite there being plethora of literature, the movies set the benchmark on how stuff is supposed to look and behave, 40k? Stuff works completely different depending not only on autor, but on the perspective the story is being told from alone, there is no consistency in 40k and there is no consistency within its fanbase.
TokyoDream
@Katitof
Agreed. Up until the early 2000s, 40K was mostly in players imaginations. GW kept a lot of it mysterious. Even official art was more of an interpretation of the fluff and was wildly inconsistent. That was part of the fun. You had to find your own interpretation from scraps of lore in the codexes that were sometimes contradictory. It's a lot like Dark Souls now that I think about it.
When you try to bring something like that to life in a video game or any type of media, there's bound to be a lot of resistance. This is just the kind of thing you have to get over and grow up. Basically it all comes down to a lot of 40K fans being entitled infants that need to get a life.
Edit for wink
Stoner
The one thing I don't get - what 40k setting has anything to do with it? I mean, yeah, having some stuff that makes TTers happy is great, but we're talking about RTS VIDEO GAME here. If gameplay is fun enough, you can mutilate lore as much as you want, 2.5 "neckbears" as you folks like to put it, will complain, but 5-10k ppl would STFU and enjoy hell out of well designed and fun RTS game with mighty Spehs Mareens, Spehs Elves, Orks and etc, no? Well, vDOW was nowhere near TT accuracy either, so what?
Wikkyd
Uh Eternal Crusade had a lot of things promised that they didn't deliver on, including Terminators and Wraith Guard. People threw down hundreds of dollars at the game, in hopes the devs would be able to give them a Planetside esque game.
The devs then stated they wouldn't be doing that. So people have every right to complain about that.
CANNED_F3TUS
Sadly games that are not lore accurate get flamed hard. I would even go as far as saying that most 40k fans dont even care if the game is well designed. Some youtubers even said they wouldnt care if tindalos abandoned the game the next day as long as they see 12 factions as promised.
Gorb
The entire point about "Gabriel jumping" was a lore-based argument. There was literally no other counterargument. It was completely, 100%, people saying it didn't respect the lore of 40k.
And I think we can all agree that was certainly a vocal complaint. It might be symptomatic of other issues with the lore in the game, but it's still people making their issues known with perceived inaccuracies of the lore.
Opinion post.
S4ngetsu
@Gorb Who cares about the lore ? People want good games.
Achernar
Why play anything other than SC2, BW or WC3 then?
Lore is important, no one is going to play a Star Wars game in which gungan sith lords fight gungan jedi, no matter how good gameplay is.
S4ngetsu
True, but if the lore sets too many rules so that a developer can't create a good game without breaking the lore, I wouldn't care about the lore.
Gorb
Just to clarify, I'm firmly of the belief that gameplay comes first too
I just felt it was necessary to point out a lot of the complaints around the appearance of the game stem purely from lore-adherence arguments. Therefore, they are important (at least in terms of whether or not Relic should consider them). We even had people criticising Boulle (or was it another key developer) for saying what some people are saying in this very thread!
Achernar
Yeah, jumping Gabe surely opened new gameplay horizons. /s
Achernar
Serious answer, aside from select few units, not much, and that's a problem cause DoW3 is a good game othewise. Relic put an ammo into haters' hands when there were absolutely no gameplay reasons to have those units being animated in a silly manner.
It would be better for both, those who care about lore and those who don't if neither of the group were pissed off by the devs.
Gorb
The gameplay reason was clarity. Each unit needs to be unique, and Terminators already had the monopoly on the teleport animation (and visual recognition). You not accepting that reason is fine, but let's not pretend there were no reasons given.
Achernar
This is ridiculous. How much clarity do you need?
You have:
Most games work just fine with 2 or 3 things from the list.
If you don't care about the lore why do you insert yourself into jumping Gabe debate? You'd lose nothing if his animation were changed. You can possibly gain something by having less people hating the game and more people playing it.
Gorb
You're supposing things I never said. Me prefering gameplay doesn't mean I don't care about lore. You rejecting counterarguments out of hand doesn't mean they're not relevant.
The animation is only different because Gabriel performs a jump. But I've done this topic way too many times, to say exactly the same things. You don't rate the jump, and that's fine. Doesn't mean that Relic didn't consider that, or don't know what they're doing, or that the things they chose to do were unnecessary. It just means you disagree with what was done. No more, no less.
BODHblii
keep eat ++heresy redacted++ boyz!!!!
zeds dead baby
ok u got me now we have not 300 but 600 shitlovers belivers - its time for grate new contetn (maps skins etc)
keep support shitmakers!!! for emperor nurgle