@Lude said:
I agree with Auni that the OP's point is not the case, Eldar have plenty of way to counter snipers, not least having the best sniper unit in the game and the only sniper elite. On top of this there is webway for a speed bonus, shields to protect squad members, and lots of burst damage from grenades, Quick Strike, and almost every elite. If you need a recommendation, try Ranger Focus to make sure you can always see the snipers location, it's very important to have vision of snipers if you want to kill them.
Did you not read anything I wrote in the OP or subsequent posts?
Take Ranger focus? Really?
The entire point of this thread is that Eldar cannot counter rangers without building rangers, which is horrible RTS game design. You don't make the counter to a powerful unit the exact same unit. Elites also arent an answer, because what if the player didnt take that elite?
Tell me how to counter rangers without your own rangers or elites? I'll save your breathe, it isn't possible for eldar.
That is the same things as asking him to tell you how to counter vehicles as SM, without Lanscannons or Predator Annihilators.
You argument is invalid. Because Lasercans = Inf. unequal Vehicle. Pred Annhihaltor is Vehicle partially unequal to other vehicles.
The OP says: You can only counter Rangers with Rangers. Rangers are equal to Inf. and equal to Rangers.
To adopt your example the answer should have been
"Counter them with Banshees or Vypers/Falcons" ... which doesn't work because Rangers counter Banshees hard, and Vypers/Falcons aswell (as soon as they hit critical mass)
No, my example stays true. Rangers are natural counter to Rangers. We already have a counter, you just need to use it. Same as Predator Annihilator being the natural counter to tank units.
All I am saying is that from a game design perspective, having rangers counter rangers is fundamentally flawed.
When you have a unit that counters every other tier 1 unit, and the only counter is itself, it will be spammed almost every game.
@Darkstirling said:
All I am saying is that from a game design perspective, having rangers counter rangers is fundamentally flawed.
When you have a unit that counters every other tier 1 unit, and the only counter is itself, it will be spammed almost every game.
That is more of a problem with how they counter other units, rather then how they counter themselves.
CoH1 had a similar issue with Snipers, and vDoW1 Rangers were also brutally OP to the point that they broke matches.
@Darkstirling said:
All I am saying is that from a game design perspective, having rangers counter rangers is fundamentally flawed.
When you have a unit that counters every other tier 1 unit, and the only counter is itself, it will be spammed almost every game.
However as I have already said, that unit is not the problem.
The factions inability to respond to it with anything else is, just like the factions inability to actually use core infantry effectively.
30% health increase directly nerfed Eldar ability to hit and run MASSIVELY, because contrary to HP and model reinforcement, it does not matter if you'll lose 20 hp model or 2000 hp model, it'll reinforce always in the same time.
Eldar however?
Shield regen is a set function of X per second that scales only with upgrade.
That means the more shields squad have, the longer it will take to regen.
That's why wraiths are not very liked, that's why Eldar suddenly started to rely on rangers post 30% hp increase - without adjustment to shield regen other units simply take too long to get back to fighting condition, leaving rangers the only viable option for the long run as other options are unsustainable with low durability, high recovery time, lowest DPS and WWG mandatory side cost.
Yes, you can keep fighting until you lose models and then reinforce with instant portion of shield regen, but you'll then suffer simply unsustainable attrition as Eldar is the only faction that requires multiple additional non tech related structures to function in form of WWG.
TL;DR:
30% hp increase is to blame for that situation partly and partly factions own inability to respond to sniper unit without resorting to own sniper as no other unit is capable of closing in and dealing damage.
Shields regen plenty quick with upgrade. 20hp/s (with upgrade ) in a radius that can potentially cover the entire map. You heal while you're walking to the next thing to whack with your pointy stick.
Shields regen plenty quick with upgrade. 20hp/s (with upgrade ) in a radius that can potentially cover the entire map. You heal while you're walking to the next thing to whack with your pointy stick.
If you want to use it more often then once ever 3 minutes on a singular unit, you need expensive upgrade and multiple shrines.
Shields regen plenty quick with upgrade. 20hp/s (with upgrade ) in a radius that can potentially cover the entire map. You heal while you're walking to the next thing to whack with your pointy stick.
If you want to use it more often then once ever 3 minutes on a singular unit, you need expensive upgrade and multiple shrines.
The upgrades really aren't expensive in the latrer stages of the game.
Shields regen plenty quick with upgrade. 20hp/s (with upgrade ) in a radius that can potentially cover the entire map. You heal while you're walking to the next thing to whack with your pointy stick.
If you want to use it more often then once ever 3 minutes on a singular unit, you need expensive upgrade and multiple shrines.
The upgrades really aren't expensive in the latrer stages of the game.
The expensive part is having multiple structures to actually have charges for the ability to use.
Single upgraded building struggles to sustain 2 wraith squads in games where opponent isn't passive.
And no, shield doesn't regen that quickly.
Shield regen should be a % per second, not flat value as that is the primary reason why wraiths aren't popular despite their strength-if you don't have soul recall charges, downtime is MASSIVE once shields go out.
Shield regen should be a % per second, not flat value as that is the primary reason why wraiths aren't popular despite their strength-if you don't have soul recall charges, downtime is MASSIVE once shields go out.
I have to point out again that this downtime also includes travel time since Eldar passively benefit from shield regen while walking around the map. Wraith units are slower and thus spend more time traveling. If you're just afking units in base until they heal, you're not taking true advantage of shield regen. It takes a little over a minute for a complete shield regen on Wraithguard out of the box with enhanced shield regen. It only takes forever if you're not using webways.
It's a faster heal than repair and they have a free full squad heal every couple of minutes.
It's very silly not to use them because they take a minute to heal their full shields. You spend most of that just walking place to place.
Shield regen out of WWG radius is just enough to make Vypers recover.
If you want to have anything else at full capacity, you need WWGs.
If you want to use natural regen as an argument then sure, please do, but I fail to see how ~50 shield in a minute is going to help you regen shield for units which got more then 2000.
@Katitof said:
Shield regen out of WWG radius is just enough to make Vypers recover.
If you want to have anything else at full capacity, you need WWGs.
If you want to use natural regen as an argument then sure, please do, but I fail to see how ~50 shield in a minute is going to help you regen shield for units which got more then 2000.
You mis underrstand, I am referring to webway gate regeneration.
@Katitof said:
Shield regen out of WWG radius is just enough to make Vypers recover.
If you want to have anything else at full capacity, you need WWGs.
If you want to use natural regen as an argument then sure, please do, but I fail to see how ~50 shield in a minute is going to help you regen shield for units which got more then 2000.
You mis underrstand, I am referring to webway gate regeneration.
Ah, alright then.
Its adds up, but its still inferior to getting the unit ready for the next fight in comparison to raw reinforcement.
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jonoliveira12
No, my example stays true. Rangers are natural counter to Rangers. We already have a counter, you just need to use it. Same as Predator Annihilator being the natural counter to tank units.
Darkstirling
All I am saying is that from a game design perspective, having rangers counter rangers is fundamentally flawed.
When you have a unit that counters every other tier 1 unit, and the only counter is itself, it will be spammed almost every game.
jonoliveira12
That is more of a problem with how they counter other units, rather then how they counter themselves.
CoH1 had a similar issue with Snipers, and vDoW1 Rangers were also brutally OP to the point that they broke matches.
Katitof
However as I have already said, that unit is not the problem.
The factions inability to respond to it with anything else is, just like the factions inability to actually use core infantry effectively.
30% health increase directly nerfed Eldar ability to hit and run MASSIVELY, because contrary to HP and model reinforcement, it does not matter if you'll lose 20 hp model or 2000 hp model, it'll reinforce always in the same time.
Eldar however?
Shield regen is a set function of X per second that scales only with upgrade.
That means the more shields squad have, the longer it will take to regen.
That's why wraiths are not very liked, that's why Eldar suddenly started to rely on rangers post 30% hp increase - without adjustment to shield regen other units simply take too long to get back to fighting condition, leaving rangers the only viable option for the long run as other options are unsustainable with low durability, high recovery time, lowest DPS and WWG mandatory side cost.
Yes, you can keep fighting until you lose models and then reinforce with instant portion of shield regen, but you'll then suffer simply unsustainable attrition as Eldar is the only faction that requires multiple additional non tech related structures to function in form of WWG.
TL;DR:
30% hp increase is to blame for that situation partly and partly factions own inability to respond to sniper unit without resorting to own sniper as no other unit is capable of closing in and dealing damage.
Dullahan
If you use Soul Recall you get a free heal.
Shields regen plenty quick with upgrade. 20hp/s (with upgrade ) in a radius that can potentially cover the entire map. You heal while you're walking to the next thing to whack with your pointy stick.
Katitof
If you want to use it more often then once ever 3 minutes on a singular unit, you need expensive upgrade and multiple shrines.
Dullahan
The upgrades really aren't expensive in the latrer stages of the game.
Katitof
The expensive part is having multiple structures to actually have charges for the ability to use.
Single upgraded building struggles to sustain 2 wraith squads in games where opponent isn't passive.
And no, shield doesn't regen that quickly.
Shield regen should be a % per second, not flat value as that is the primary reason why wraiths aren't popular despite their strength-if you don't have soul recall charges, downtime is MASSIVE once shields go out.
Dullahan
I have to point out again that this downtime also includes travel time since Eldar passively benefit from shield regen while walking around the map. Wraith units are slower and thus spend more time traveling. If you're just afking units in base until they heal, you're not taking true advantage of shield regen. It takes a little over a minute for a complete shield regen on Wraithguard out of the box with enhanced shield regen. It only takes forever if you're not using webways.
It's a faster heal than repair and they have a free full squad heal every couple of minutes.
It's very silly not to use them because they take a minute to heal their full shields. You spend most of that just walking place to place.
Katitof
Shield regen out of WWG radius is just enough to make Vypers recover.
If you want to have anything else at full capacity, you need WWGs.
If you want to use natural regen as an argument then sure, please do, but I fail to see how ~50 shield in a minute is going to help you regen shield for units which got more then 2000.
Dullahan
You mis underrstand, I am referring to webway gate regeneration.
Katitof
Ah, alright then.
Its adds up, but its still inferior to getting the unit ready for the next fight in comparison to raw reinforcement.