@CANNED_F3TUS said:
The problem is that its pretty hard to draw a consensus or follow instructions of what people want for the game when everyone is screaming something else and arent constructive. Partially the reason why nothing much changed with DoW 3 because devs are not gonna listen to rants and raving.
Most reasonable adults can filter the ranting out and start drawing clearer conclusions. DoW III was by now way unusual in the fanboi vs troll clashes. I've said it on this forum more times than I can count now, but no consensus is required for Relic to make decisions on what they want to do with the game. Clearly, they didn't have a fan consensus with DoW III and they still made it anyways (to unfortunate results). They developed DoW II without a care for consensus either (to much better results).
The key here is that a balance must be struck. Gamers are exceptionally narrow-minded and biased in their feedback, as many folk on this forum have pointed out here. If the fans designed a game you'd probably end up with a Homer Simpson car. That being said, you can't design a game without seriously considering and understanding your target audience. That's where DoW III went wrong.
@Amoc so your policy is "ignore all the fans completely and do what you think is best based on the feedback from the fans"...? I think that confused feedback sums up what Relic was getting back at them internally pre and post launch.
Never forget that people with something positive to say (such as "I like the game how it is") have less incentive to dive into a negativity storm than people with something negative to say have to drive their complaints all over other people's good time.
That's the nature of the beast! The game is good. Relic's best option was to stick with it and build on it and take control of the narrative. But that is easier said than done. Especially when they just put out this deeply personal effort and watched it get spat on even before anyone had it in their hands. It is a confusing and disorienting experience. I don't blame them for trying to get their bearings. And then they did try to put out what they thought "the fans" wanted (DoW3 with classic DoW1 gameplay) but it was too monumental an effort for the resources available.
All of that's in the past. Thinking about it is academic.
What matters now is what's next for DoW3 : Players who enjoy what it is now rallying together to drive that community forward. If you're not one of those players, there's not really anything left for you to gain out of arguing about the past because the game won't be changing substantially.
The market determines the value of something. Sadly this is the truth we live with. DOW3 simply did not perform. Personally I was rooting for it, but in the end it didn't.
Personally I bought the game at full price, along with a promise of support, added features and new expansion.
As someone who bought every single DOW and COH title and was involved in
testing for some of dow1 and dow2 I can understand the move they made.
However, the broken promise and the way this was handled has pushed me away from Relic as a customer and thus I will not be buying any more Relic games.
@AstartesUltra said:
For me, the worst thing about this story is for Relic to let a unfinished game, i mean without at minimum Chaos race which is primordial in w40k lore.
Every DOW respect this rule and i hope Relic/SEGA will change their mind because the game is really great and players enjoy it a lot.
For Relic games advertising, nothing is worst than to let this game incomplete.
DOW3 needs Chaos to take is place into DOW pantheon
I beg to differ, because it sound like chaos is a key element and a must have for every 40k Game. By this logic, the upcoming game "Warhammer 40,000: Gladius - Relics of War" would be incomplete too.
What I can agree with you on is the state, that one of the big strength of the DoW series and 40k in general are the different races and relic might have missed a chance here (at least in my opinion). The game has high production vaules and awesome faction mechanics. If the dust settles and relic might reconsinder the strategy for DoW3 I'm sure chaos will take place in those future plans. However, this fact doesn't make DoW3 an incopmplete game.
Let's just wait and see what the future holds.
@Decepticats said: @Amoc so your policy is "ignore all the fans completely and do what you think is best based on the feedback from the fans"...? I think that confused feedback sums up what Relic was getting back at them internally pre and post launch.
That's what you took away from my comments? When I said specifically where Relic went wrong was not understanding what the fans wanted? Bizarre.
No, what my "policy" would be is to strike a balance. A lot of feedback is useless, and generated by obnoxious goofs. A lot of it, however, is good. The developer has to spend the time to understand which is which and to engage or at least really do their best to understand the target audience. Relic, as I just said, did a terrible job of that with DoW III.
@Amoc do you really not see the logical conflict in "They thought DoW3 how it is was a good idea, but it's not, so they need to listen to the fans. But not all the fans, only the fans with things they think are good ideas."? If they thought DoW3 how it is was a good idea but you think it's not, then obviously the fans they'd think had good ideas to listen to wouldn't be the same ones as you. It's all subjective.
Look, again: That's all academic. I really don't get why you and so many others that dislike DoW3 are still here and on reddit posting and chasing away the people who enjoy the game or could enjoy the game. I would think you'd leave this community to the people who enjoy the game so we can try to build something out of it. You've said your piece (many many times over) and we get it, you didn't like DoW3. But there's no point in trying to convince anyone of that or in airing your grievances again and again. NOTHING about the game is going to change. Maybe balance a little, but that's it! So if you don't like it, I'm sorry and I'm not going to try to change your opinion. But a LOT of people do like it. And we want to bring in others who feel the same.
So let's live and let live, eh? Quit wasting your time and energy posting complaints about a game you don't like that won't change in that game's community forums.
@Decepticats said: @Amoc do you really not see the logical conflict in "They thought DoW3 how it is was a good idea, but it's not, so they need to listen to the fans. But not all the fans, only the fans with things they think are good ideas."? If they thought DoW3 how it is was a good idea but you think it's not, then obviously the fans they'd think had good ideas to listen to wouldn't be the same ones as you. It's all subjective.
There's no conflict in logic there. Of course the conversation is subjective. How could it not be?
For your argument to work, we'd have to accept that ALL fan feedback if good/intelligent/reasonable. Since that proposition is ridiculous from the start, we have to accept that the developers have to discard some (or a lot) of the feedback they receive. Their job is to filter it and pull the useful stuff from the noise.
Where DoW III went wrong is it seems to have completely ignored most (or all?) feedback from fans. Either that or Relic horribly misunderstood what they were looking at. THAT needs to change.
@Decepticats said:
So let's live and let live, eh? Quit wasting your time and energy posting complaints about a game you don't like that won't change in that game's community forums.
I'm enough of a fan of Relic and DoW to have some investment in the community. The hope for me, and others like me, is that some of our thoughts are heard and that it will lead to the next game being worth playing.
These forums aren't here to be a echo-chamber for fans. Understand that we're not trying to piss in your oatmeal and ruin your fun. If you don't like what we have to say, you don't have to respond.
@Amoc said:
There's no conflict in logic there. Of course the conversation is subjective. How could it not be?
For your argument to work, we'd have to accept that ALL fan feedback if good/intelligent/reasonable. Since that proposition is ridiculous from the start, we have to accept that the developers have to discard some (or a lot) of the feedback they receive. Their job is to filter it and pull the useful stuff from the noise.
No, that isn't my argument. I am not making an argument. I'm saying that you're asking people whose opinions you disagree with to listen to the fans whose opinions they think are good. Wouldn't by the nature of your disagreement with them about what makes a good game, that mean that they'd reject opinions like yours and listen to people like me and end up at the same place? If good is subjective (which of course it is), and their version of good is DoW3 (which of course it is), then wouldn't their version of good feedback differ from yours to the extent that you STILL WOULDN'T get the game you wanted? Of course!
@Amoc said:
Where DoW III went wrong is it seems to have completely ignored most (or all?) feedback from fans. Either that or Relic horribly misunderstood what they were looking at. THAT needs to change.
Clearly they are changing that. But it also may produce something you don't like. I dunno if you know this, but if you go to any one thread here or on reddit and look at the opinions of fans, they vary DRAMATICALLY. What I want from a Relic game is completely different from what you want. Neither opinion is necessarily wrong and it's up to the reader to determine which way is "Good" which puts Relic right back in the position they started of going with the ideas they feel are best.
@Amoc said:
I'm enough of a fan of Relic and DoW to have some investment in the community. The hope for me, and others like me, is that some of our thoughts are heard and that it will lead to the next game being worth playing.
These forums aren't here to be a echo-chamber for fans. Understand that we're not trying to piss in your oatmeal and ruin your fun. If you don't like what we have to say, you don't have to respond.
You posting here your constant negativity and criticism on literally EVERY ACTIVE thread (seriously at this moment you have the majority of posts on the top like 5 or 6 threads. It's kinda ridiculous for someone who dislikes this game) is not going to impact Relic. They've already realized they need to do things differently next time, but what those things are is subjective. In my opinion, the main place they messed up is in PR and Community Relations. They let 40K lore fanbois take the narrative from the start and drive the game into the ground when we'd only seen one little bit of campaign gameplay. The game was basically already in trouble at that point and they didn't do enough to take control of that narrative and steer it. You might say the problem was the gameplay itself and they should make games more like stuff we already have. Either way, they've heard all of that feedback, constantly reposting it serves nothing and nobody.
No, the forums aren't meant to be an echo-chamber. But they are meant to be a place for fans to discuss a game they like and get hyped about it. If you don't like DoW3, please leave the DoW3 forums to those of us that do. Your posting made sense when Relic might have changed DoW3 to be what you wanted. I didn't complain about it then. But now that that is no longer a possibility, literally all you are doing is pissing in our oatmeal. Not ruining our fun, but making it harder for us to build the community around this game. I DO have to respond because as I said above, you are absolutely dominating the forums by constantly posting and responding to EVERY. SINGLE. THING. ANYONE. SAYS.
I get that you're a Relic fan, me too. But there's nothing left for you to accomplish here except be rude to people trying to make a community around a game they like.
@Amoc said:
Perhaps not. It's rare that a series on its 4th or 5th iteration somehow blows the socks off of everyone and ends up as the franchise's crowning achievement, but it's not unheard of.
Creative Assembly did it with Warhammer Total War. Final Fantasy did it with FF VII.
It is rare yes but imagine Relic listened us and made the game we wanted, my socks are fully charged and ready to kill someone. They have a pre made entire universe, over 9 races, multiple factions for unlimited skins, maps, MP and they have DOW1 to follow and DOW3 to not follow.. how hard can it be though, seriously.. chuck in a last stand, make power core a secondary mode and boom.. all the ingredients are there, just follow the ++heresy redacted++ instructions fgs.
The problem is that its pretty hard to draw a consensus or follow instructions of what people want for the game when everyone is screaming something else and arent constructive. Partially the reason why nothing much changed with DoW 3 because devs are not gonna listen to rants and raving.
What should be done now is polls or surveys, clear undeniable evidence from the community of where they went wrong.
For example...
We feel awful about what happened and we want to know clearly where we went wrong, Please take the time to rate each aspect of DOW3 help us to prepare and deliver in future.. try it now
**Very poor 1 - 10 Amazing
Power core mode 6/10
Playable races 3/10 (LOL irony?)
Support in Forums 6/10
In game Graphics 8/10
Maps 7/10
Doctrine aspect 6/10
Elites 6/10
Resources 4/10
Communication in game 1/10 (by this i mean gghf is as far as it gets)
Campaign 7/10
other game modes 2/10 (no last stand)?**
Actually..i t would be great if one of you guys @Amoc@Draconix maybe put together a new thread allowing people to reply... seeings the DOW community ripped DOW down.. how about we do more to help save it ? We need to have rules though @Amoc especially .. this is not a 0/10 - 2000word essay for each part. preferably just a score and max 10 words per score?
It needs to be clear and decisive... If the modders could regulate this it would be great.. it could be 20 different scores, or maybe even 5.. but it needs to be enough for Relic to scroll through and go DAAYUM we fucked up there huh.
Hey, @r_benb Do relic may at least unlock camera rotating? At least if you unlock camera maybe I re-playing single player in this game, just because environments in this game are beatiful, the best in the series and I'll be happy too look at really hevaily graphically detailed environments much closer. Even with fact that some textures are unfinished.
Okay, no problem:
1. 0/10 first shot in the leg for an RTS-branded game
2. 3/10 lol
3. 1/10 including communication of dev > playerbase, +1 for some officials posting sometimes, useless, but something
4. 5/10 -5 for design, technically it isn't so bad, most assets look nice
5. 4/10 Vindi covered map aspect several times quite well, go read
6. 1/10 at least idea was funny
7. 6/10 idea is alright, execution is terrible
8. 5/10 you mean economy? idea of Esc Phases is fantastic, again, execution is total disaster
9. ???
10. 0/10 shot in the leg number two, let's alienate as many people as we can with 17 mission long tutorial
11. 6/10 +5 points for Anni, -4 for never tweaking game to work in this mode
Do you seriously think Relic doesn't know where they fked up? I'll tell you a secret: all over.
Were 8 player games considered for DOW3? I'm sure performance would be a concern but I think it's worth it. Modded 4v4 games in DOW3 ran fine for me and a little slow-down isn't a big deal in an RTS. Playing 4v4 and 8 player FFA in DOW1 was some of the most fun I've ever had in a video game. Seriously, winning 8 way FFAs had me jumping around and hollering like a mad man.
@0riginal_z0M said:
Actually..i t would be great if one of you guys @Amoc@Draconix maybe put together a new thread allowing people to reply... seeings the DOW community ripped DOW down.. how about we do more to help save it ?
Good idea? no ?
Not really a good idea, no. Relic ran their own survey months ago asking a lot of the same questions. Obviously we're not privy to the results (unfortunate) but they certainly know where they went wrong. I'm sure they used that information to make the decision to abandon the game.
The problem with running a survey on this forum is that 99.99% of the intended player base doesn't visit it. They walked away from the game almost a year ago. The feedback you'd be getting from this forum would therefore be from a very small and exceptional part of the fan base, largely consisting of either DoW III's most committed critics or its most enthusiastic fans.
@Decepticats said:
No, that isn't my argument. I am not making an argument. I'm saying that you're asking people whose opinions you disagree with to listen to the fans whose opinions they think are good. Wouldn't by the nature of your disagreement with them about what makes a good game, that mean that they'd reject opinions like yours and listen to people like me and end up at the same place? If good is subjective (which of course it is), and their version of good is DoW3 (which of course it is), then wouldn't their version of good feedback differ from yours to the extent that you STILL WOULDN'T get the game you wanted? Of course!
Oh boy. Maybe try again because you're not making much sense there.
Do you agree that not all fan feedback is reasonable? I'll assume you do.
If that's the case, would you also agree that a developer can't design a game in a vacuum without soliciting fan feedback or at least having a good understanding of their target audience?
If we can agree on these two points, then we don't have anything to argue about.
@Decepticats said:
1. You posting here your constant negativity and criticism on literally EVERY ACTIVE thread (seriously at this moment you have the majority of posts on the top like 5 or 6 threads. It's kinda ridiculous for someone who dislikes this game) is not going to impact Relic.
Your suggestions aren't going to impact Relic either, so you don't really have an argument here. The suggestion that these forums is a place for fans only to talk in isolation about this wonderful game is childish. I'm not here to spoil your fun or ruin your community. You don't have to get defensive and respond to any of my posts. It's a simple solution to a simple problem that obviously upsets you.
@r_benb said:
In the spirit of moving forward, can we all agree -- at least in this one thread of reasonably productive conversation -- that all kinds of players can have all kinds of different, valid opinions? Own your take but let's not spend more energy trying to disprove those of others whether they're positive or negative. Yes, the sweeping statements on both sides can be frustrating, but this is the internet, after all -- that's kind of its whole deal.
Join me in the calm place; it's nice in here.
[Edit: grammar]
Calm response, word of warning. I know you don't have any real sway on relic as a company as a whole but pass this on up the ladder if you find the opportunity. The internet never forgets. The handling of the development of DoW3, design decisions, and then how it was subsequently dropped before a year was up is not something that's just going to go away. It's stained relic's reputation, and is still lauded and laughed over on popular social media sights (reddit,etc). Echoes of this game are more than likely going to hurt both of your upcoming games, and not because of how poorly it was received, but more due to relics response after that poor reception of shrugging and shelving the product. If the board room doesn't understand that, how about, "Consumer confidence in the brand or relic game studios is not robust, tenuous at best."
I understand r_benb that you've been given the unenviable task of breaking the news of that shelving to the one social space that still had very vocal fans, sorry that task was laid on your shoulders. Godspeed.
@Valeran said:
Hey, @r_benb Do relic may at least unlock camera rotating? At least if you unlock camera maybe I re-playing single player in this game, just because environments in this game are beatiful, the best in the series and I'll be happy too look at really hevaily graphically detailed environments much closer. Even with fact that some textures are unfinished.
That's not something we're considering. The fixed camera is to deliver the best graphics quality (art and environments were designed to fit) and performance (avoid the impact of constant rendering).
Were 8 player games considered for DOW3? I'm sure performance would be a concern but I think it's worth it. Modded 4v4 games in DOW3 ran fine for me and a little slow-down isn't a big deal in an RTS. Playing 4v4 and 8 player FFA in DOW1 was some of the most fun I've ever had in a video game. Seriously, winning 8 way FFAs had me jumping around and hollering like a mad man.
Hey! It was considered pre- and post-launch but the performance risks kept it from being an easy win. The slowdown may not worry you, but it would be an issue for many other players.
@Strangequark said:
I know you don't have any real sway on relic as a company as a whole but pass this on up the ladder if you find the opportunity.
Um ouch? JK...sort of.
But for an actual answer, none of those points are being overlooked or ignored internally either. Work continues, conversations continue. We know we have something to prove and the teams are determined to prove it.
If you mean the DOW team, I've covered some of the things they've been up to in previous posts in this thread. If you mean me personally, the most relevant thing is likely the time @Kat_RE@Jamie_RE@Andy_RE and I have spent bringing your voices and opinions into all conversations pre- and post-launch. We've also been working really hard with the game teams to determine how we can create more space for player feedback, early testing, and open dialogue in our process moving forward. Like I've said in some other comments, we're seeing promising results but we can't share much more than that until the projects are further along.
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Comments
Amoc
Most reasonable adults can filter the ranting out and start drawing clearer conclusions. DoW III was by now way unusual in the fanboi vs troll clashes. I've said it on this forum more times than I can count now, but no consensus is required for Relic to make decisions on what they want to do with the game. Clearly, they didn't have a fan consensus with DoW III and they still made it anyways (to unfortunate results). They developed DoW II without a care for consensus either (to much better results).
The key here is that a balance must be struck. Gamers are exceptionally narrow-minded and biased in their feedback, as many folk on this forum have pointed out here. If the fans designed a game you'd probably end up with a Homer Simpson car. That being said, you can't design a game without seriously considering and understanding your target audience. That's where DoW III went wrong.
Decepticats
@Amoc so your policy is "ignore all the fans completely and do what you think is best based on the feedback from the fans"...? I think that confused feedback sums up what Relic was getting back at them internally pre and post launch.
Never forget that people with something positive to say (such as "I like the game how it is") have less incentive to dive into a negativity storm than people with something negative to say have to drive their complaints all over other people's good time.
That's the nature of the beast! The game is good. Relic's best option was to stick with it and build on it and take control of the narrative. But that is easier said than done. Especially when they just put out this deeply personal effort and watched it get spat on even before anyone had it in their hands. It is a confusing and disorienting experience. I don't blame them for trying to get their bearings. And then they did try to put out what they thought "the fans" wanted (DoW3 with classic DoW1 gameplay) but it was too monumental an effort for the resources available.
All of that's in the past. Thinking about it is academic.
What matters now is what's next for DoW3 : Players who enjoy what it is now rallying together to drive that community forward. If you're not one of those players, there's not really anything left for you to gain out of arguing about the past because the game won't be changing substantially.
Chokolata
The market determines the value of something. Sadly this is the truth we live with. DOW3 simply did not perform. Personally I was rooting for it, but in the end it didn't.
Personally I bought the game at full price, along with a promise of support, added features and new expansion.
As someone who bought every single DOW and COH title and was involved in
testing for some of dow1 and dow2 I can understand the move they made.
However, the broken promise and the way this was handled has pushed me away from Relic as a customer and thus I will not be buying any more Relic games.
Good luck!
AstartesUltra
For me, the worst thing about this story is for Relic to let a unfinished game, i mean without at minimum Chaos race which is primordial in w40k lore.
Every DOW respect this rule and i hope Relic/SEGA will change their mind because the game is really great and players enjoy it a lot.
For Relic games advertising, nothing is worst than to let this game incomplete.
DOW3 needs Chaos to take is place into DOW pantheon
LuckyShitBird
I beg to differ, because it sound like chaos is a key element and a must have for every 40k Game. By this logic, the upcoming game "Warhammer 40,000: Gladius - Relics of War" would be incomplete too.
What I can agree with you on is the state, that one of the big strength of the DoW series and 40k in general are the different races and relic might have missed a chance here (at least in my opinion). The game has high production vaules and awesome faction mechanics. If the dust settles and relic might reconsinder the strategy for DoW3 I'm sure chaos will take place in those future plans. However, this fact doesn't make DoW3 an incopmplete game.
Let's just wait and see what the future holds.
Amoc
That's what you took away from my comments? When I said specifically where Relic went wrong was not understanding what the fans wanted? Bizarre.
No, what my "policy" would be is to strike a balance. A lot of feedback is useless, and generated by obnoxious goofs. A lot of it, however, is good. The developer has to spend the time to understand which is which and to engage or at least really do their best to understand the target audience. Relic, as I just said, did a terrible job of that with DoW III.
Decepticats
@Amoc do you really not see the logical conflict in "They thought DoW3 how it is was a good idea, but it's not, so they need to listen to the fans. But not all the fans, only the fans with things they think are good ideas."? If they thought DoW3 how it is was a good idea but you think it's not, then obviously the fans they'd think had good ideas to listen to wouldn't be the same ones as you. It's all subjective.
Look, again: That's all academic. I really don't get why you and so many others that dislike DoW3 are still here and on reddit posting and chasing away the people who enjoy the game or could enjoy the game. I would think you'd leave this community to the people who enjoy the game so we can try to build something out of it. You've said your piece (many many times over) and we get it, you didn't like DoW3. But there's no point in trying to convince anyone of that or in airing your grievances again and again. NOTHING about the game is going to change. Maybe balance a little, but that's it! So if you don't like it, I'm sorry and I'm not going to try to change your opinion. But a LOT of people do like it. And we want to bring in others who feel the same.
So let's live and let live, eh? Quit wasting your time and energy posting complaints about a game you don't like that won't change in that game's community forums.
Amoc
There's no conflict in logic there. Of course the conversation is subjective. How could it not be?
For your argument to work, we'd have to accept that ALL fan feedback if good/intelligent/reasonable. Since that proposition is ridiculous from the start, we have to accept that the developers have to discard some (or a lot) of the feedback they receive. Their job is to filter it and pull the useful stuff from the noise.
Where DoW III went wrong is it seems to have completely ignored most (or all?) feedback from fans. Either that or Relic horribly misunderstood what they were looking at. THAT needs to change.
I'm enough of a fan of Relic and DoW to have some investment in the community. The hope for me, and others like me, is that some of our thoughts are heard and that it will lead to the next game being worth playing.
These forums aren't here to be a echo-chamber for fans. Understand that we're not trying to piss in your oatmeal and ruin your fun. If you don't like what we have to say, you don't have to respond.
Decepticats
No, that isn't my argument. I am not making an argument. I'm saying that you're asking people whose opinions you disagree with to listen to the fans whose opinions they think are good. Wouldn't by the nature of your disagreement with them about what makes a good game, that mean that they'd reject opinions like yours and listen to people like me and end up at the same place? If good is subjective (which of course it is), and their version of good is DoW3 (which of course it is), then wouldn't their version of good feedback differ from yours to the extent that you STILL WOULDN'T get the game you wanted? Of course!
Clearly they are changing that. But it also may produce something you don't like. I dunno if you know this, but if you go to any one thread here or on reddit and look at the opinions of fans, they vary DRAMATICALLY. What I want from a Relic game is completely different from what you want. Neither opinion is necessarily wrong and it's up to the reader to determine which way is "Good" which puts Relic right back in the position they started of going with the ideas they feel are best.
You posting here your constant negativity and criticism on literally EVERY ACTIVE thread (seriously at this moment you have the majority of posts on the top like 5 or 6 threads. It's kinda ridiculous for someone who dislikes this game) is not going to impact Relic. They've already realized they need to do things differently next time, but what those things are is subjective. In my opinion, the main place they messed up is in PR and Community Relations. They let 40K lore fanbois take the narrative from the start and drive the game into the ground when we'd only seen one little bit of campaign gameplay. The game was basically already in trouble at that point and they didn't do enough to take control of that narrative and steer it. You might say the problem was the gameplay itself and they should make games more like stuff we already have. Either way, they've heard all of that feedback, constantly reposting it serves nothing and nobody.
No, the forums aren't meant to be an echo-chamber. But they are meant to be a place for fans to discuss a game they like and get hyped about it. If you don't like DoW3, please leave the DoW3 forums to those of us that do. Your posting made sense when Relic might have changed DoW3 to be what you wanted. I didn't complain about it then. But now that that is no longer a possibility, literally all you are doing is pissing in our oatmeal. Not ruining our fun, but making it harder for us to build the community around this game. I DO have to respond because as I said above, you are absolutely dominating the forums by constantly posting and responding to EVERY. SINGLE. THING. ANYONE. SAYS.
I get that you're a Relic fan, me too. But there's nothing left for you to accomplish here except be rude to people trying to make a community around a game they like.
0riginal_z0M
What should be done now is polls or surveys, clear undeniable evidence from the community of where they went wrong.
For example...
We feel awful about what happened and we want to know clearly where we went wrong, Please take the time to rate each aspect of DOW3 help us to prepare and deliver in future.. try it now
**Very poor 1 - 10 Amazing
Actually..i t would be great if one of you guys @Amoc @Draconix maybe put together a new thread allowing people to reply... seeings the DOW community ripped DOW down.. how about we do more to help save it ? We need to have rules though @Amoc especially .. this is not a 0/10 - 2000word essay for each part. preferably just a score and max 10 words per score?
It needs to be clear and decisive... If the modders could regulate this it would be great.. it could be 20 different scores, or maybe even 5.. but it needs to be enough for Relic to scroll through and go DAAYUM we fucked up there huh.
Good idea? no ?
Valeran
Hey, @r_benb Do relic may at least unlock camera rotating? At least if you unlock camera maybe I re-playing single player in this game, just because environments in this game are beatiful, the best in the series and I'll be happy too look at really hevaily graphically detailed environments much closer.
Even with fact that some textures are unfinished.
Stoner
Okay, no problem:
1. 0/10 first shot in the leg for an RTS-branded game
2. 3/10 lol
3. 1/10 including communication of dev > playerbase, +1 for some officials posting sometimes, useless, but something
4. 5/10 -5 for design, technically it isn't so bad, most assets look nice
5. 4/10 Vindi covered map aspect several times quite well, go read
6. 1/10 at least idea was funny
7. 6/10 idea is alright, execution is terrible
8. 5/10 you mean economy? idea of Esc Phases is fantastic, again, execution is total disaster
9. ???
10. 0/10 shot in the leg number two, let's alienate as many people as we can with 17 mission long tutorial
11. 6/10 +5 points for Anni, -4 for never tweaking game to work in this mode
Do you seriously think Relic doesn't know where they fked up? I'll tell you a secret: all over.
TokyoDream
@r_benb
Were 8 player games considered for DOW3? I'm sure performance would be a concern but I think it's worth it. Modded 4v4 games in DOW3 ran fine for me and a little slow-down isn't a big deal in an RTS. Playing 4v4 and 8 player FFA in DOW1 was some of the most fun I've ever had in a video game. Seriously, winning 8 way FFAs had me jumping around and hollering like a mad man.
Amoc
Not really a good idea, no. Relic ran their own survey months ago asking a lot of the same questions. Obviously we're not privy to the results (unfortunate) but they certainly know where they went wrong. I'm sure they used that information to make the decision to abandon the game.
The problem with running a survey on this forum is that 99.99% of the intended player base doesn't visit it. They walked away from the game almost a year ago. The feedback you'd be getting from this forum would therefore be from a very small and exceptional part of the fan base, largely consisting of either DoW III's most committed critics or its most enthusiastic fans.
Amoc
Oh boy. Maybe try again because you're not making much sense there.
Do you agree that not all fan feedback is reasonable? I'll assume you do.
If that's the case, would you also agree that a developer can't design a game in a vacuum without soliciting fan feedback or at least having a good understanding of their target audience?
If we can agree on these two points, then we don't have anything to argue about.
Your suggestions aren't going to impact Relic either, so you don't really have an argument here. The suggestion that these forums is a place for fans only to talk in isolation about this wonderful game is childish. I'm not here to spoil your fun or ruin your community. You don't have to get defensive and respond to any of my posts. It's a simple solution to a simple problem that obviously upsets you.
Strangequark
Calm response, word of warning. I know you don't have any real sway on relic as a company as a whole but pass this on up the ladder if you find the opportunity. The internet never forgets. The handling of the development of DoW3, design decisions, and then how it was subsequently dropped before a year was up is not something that's just going to go away. It's stained relic's reputation, and is still lauded and laughed over on popular social media sights (reddit,etc). Echoes of this game are more than likely going to hurt both of your upcoming games, and not because of how poorly it was received, but more due to relics response after that poor reception of shrugging and shelving the product. If the board room doesn't understand that, how about, "Consumer confidence in the brand or relic game studios is not robust, tenuous at best."
I understand r_benb that you've been given the unenviable task of breaking the news of that shelving to the one social space that still had very vocal fans, sorry that task was laid on your shoulders. Godspeed.
r_benb
That's not something we're considering. The fixed camera is to deliver the best graphics quality (art and environments were designed to fit) and performance (avoid the impact of constant rendering).
r_benb
Hey! It was considered pre- and post-launch but the performance risks kept it from being an easy win. The slowdown may not worry you, but it would be an issue for many other players.
r_benb
Um ouch? JK...sort of.
But for an actual answer, none of those points are being overlooked or ignored internally either. Work continues, conversations continue. We know we have something to prove and the teams are determined to prove it.
Hibou
what did you do for 4 months ? @r_benb
r_benb
Morning @Hibou! How's your week going?
If you mean the DOW team, I've covered some of the things they've been up to in previous posts in this thread. If you mean me personally, the most relevant thing is likely the time @Kat_RE @Jamie_RE @Andy_RE and I have spent bringing your voices and opinions into all conversations pre- and post-launch. We've also been working really hard with the game teams to determine how we can create more space for player feedback, early testing, and open dialogue in our process moving forward. Like I've said in some other comments, we're seeing promising results but we can't share much more than that until the projects are further along.
Hibou
Evening @r_benb ! All good, hope your good aswell. Is it possible to bring back old eco system ?
r_benb
Nope! Reworks of the major mechanics aren't in the cards.
Martin
@r_benb
In the recent update you mention smaller content additions still being possible; Is observer mode a possibility?
r_benb
No, that wouldn't fall into the minor content category (think: cosmetics) for us.
Martin
@r_benb
are cosmetics for line units possible or only elites?