Yep. Space Marine was definitely a good one With a narrative primed for a 2nd installment. Since Relic's currently in development but not yet announced project was first mentioned, I've been hoping its Space Marine 2.
@Decepticats said:
IMO plenty of people enjoyed the game and plenty more would have kept playing or found it and enjoyed it if the detractors weren't so ++heresy redacted++ dedicated to scuttling the game.
You may argue that a good game would overcome a wave of negativity and people would like it and it would succeed anyway but that opinion is ignorant to how human psychology works. You may think you have good taste. You may think you think for yourself about what you like and what you don't (and that most people operate that way too). But you would be absolutely wrong.
This one specifically demonstrates how positive opinions in public spaces (comments sections of news etc.) snowball the opinions of others by a factor of 25%. So how does this apply to DoW3? Well, due to the perceived LACK of positivity about the game on reddit and steam reviews, the herding effect was inverted. Rather than people feeling positive about the game and purchasing it to give it a shot, they saw the game as terrible and avoided it. Even those who gave it a shot would also be less likely to be positive or forgiving of any issues with the game or more likely to blame the game if they were defeated in multiplayer.
I recall in the steam forums any time a newcomer posted a topic along the lines of "How is this game?" or "Should I get this?" 5-15 people immediately came out of the woodwork to trash it with vague answers like "the emperor has condemned this game". Most of the time none of them owned the game.
Mixed reviews? Thats strange because off the reviews I see when I scroll down are negative.
Wait, maybe its because the negative reviews are higher quality and more detailed. Lets take a look at the top review.
"I'm disappointed"
952 out of 1161 users found this review helpful
@Decepticats said:
IMO plenty of people enjoyed the game and plenty more would have kept playing or found it and enjoyed it if the detractors weren't so ++heresy redacted++ dedicated to scuttling the game.
You may argue that a good game would overcome a wave of negativity and people would like it and it would succeed anyway but that opinion is ignorant to how human psychology works. You may think you have good taste. You may think you think for yourself about what you like and what you don't (and that most people operate that way too). But you would be absolutely wrong.
This one specifically demonstrates how positive opinions in public spaces (comments sections of news etc.) snowball the opinions of others by a factor of 25%. So how does this apply to DoW3? Well, due to the perceived LACK of positivity about the game on reddit and steam reviews, the herding effect was inverted. Rather than people feeling positive about the game and purchasing it to give it a shot, they saw the game as terrible and avoided it. Even those who gave it a shot would also be less likely to be positive or forgiving of any issues with the game or more likely to blame the game if they were defeated in multiplayer.
I recall in the steam forums any time a newcomer posted a topic along the lines of "How is this game?" or "Should I get this?" 5-15 people immediately came out of the woodwork to trash it with vague answers like "the emperor has condemned this game". Most of the time none of them owned the game.
Mixed reviews? Thats strange because off the reviews I see when I scroll down are negative.
Wait, maybe its because the negative reviews are higher quality and more detailed. Lets take a look at the top review.
"I'm disappointed"
952 out of 1161 users found this review helpful
and the first five minutes, the majority of negative reviews were literally one liners with people just saying the same copy/paste ++heresy redacted++ about how it was literally just a moba, even into the campaign.
Hell some of the steam forums had a few alts who kept circle jerking themselves, we only caught them because they made responses for posts before they made the posts in a thread.
There were valid criticisms and huge threads hitting the game with a lot of good reasons why they didn't like the game, but those reviews were overshadowed by the 90% of negatives which were 0.1hrs playtime and did the same copy/paste ++heresy redacted++ while saying "I played the beta" not realizing we could see if they could or couldn't from their profile page.
Even the steam forums had a few alts who kept circle jerking themselves, we only caught them because they made responses for posts before they made the posts in a thread.
I have seen people who hate Dawn of War 3, but never played the game, or actually looked into it outside of their favorite youtubers. Some of my friends were ++heresy redacted++ shocked when they actually played it and found it wasn't as bad as those particular youtubers made it out to be. I know people who still believe the game is literally a piece for piece moba, but can't actually defend their claims when asked to actually describe what a moba is and how DoW3 is one.
Anyone who says there weren't groups who did their best to make things worse, is probably one of them.
Bringing up mixed reviews is funny argument, especially if you check playtime of most people who "liked" this game. And that's important since it has no SP content and supposed to be MP focused, which suggests high general playtime across multiple sessions. And another funny thing that some positive reviews, which aren't just 2 word memes, but rather comprehensive, tend to point out more negatives than positives.
This "salty neckbeards killed this games" argument is getting old. You can check pretty much any shovelware on Steam or any other platform which is obvious fail form any possible perspective with 90% of negative ratings. And on some official/community forums you will always find 5-10 cultists, who zealously defend their favorite game. Of course people have different tastes, and some of us may enjoy total ++heresy redacted++ of a game from objective point of view. Hell, I personally find Dragon Age 2 fantastic game, best in the series and enjoyed it immensely, but I don't go shoving it down others throats. I perfectly understand that majority doesn't like it, and why exactly.
And my favorite argument: please go check MOBA or even SC2 community boards, and please explain me how some mythical PR successfully battles negativity. Hint: nobody does. Now, please check playerbase and overall popularity. I think anyone can make make very decisive conclusions based on this.
I think it's pretty cute that you, as someone who clearly dislikes the game, come to a community forum about the game to engage with fans of the game to tell them that most of the people who share their opinion only "liked" the game, yet somehow we're the ones shoving our opinion down your throat.
But I'll bite and attempt to be constructive, because there is one point you made that stands out to me, and that's you understanding "why exactly" people don't like a game.
Because when I try to establish "why exactly" people don't like DoW3, the best I can hope for is 16 different contradictory opinions. It should have had a DoW2-style campaign. Or a DC-style one. It should have had retreat, no wait, DoW1's morale system. It should have shipped with Victory Point mode as the default gametype. No wait, Annihilate. And so on ad nauseam.
The worst, of course, are the outright lies about the game being a MOBA, or forced memes about backflipping terminators and something something C.S. Goto.
So by all means, say why you think the game was unpopular. But don't think for a minute that fixing it is as easy as implementing your own exact specifications.
We will be walking in circles here... There are certain negatives pretty much everyone agrees on (like campaign), and to make it short, considering you haven't been following any discussions so far and have no idea what opinions people express (constructively), an easy answer would be to go for either formula, DOW I or DOW II, and heavy improve on it. It was Relic's fault they split playerbase like that, and there was very little chance that by splitting playerbase 3-ways this time, they would get more people on board, especially with such shallow "Hybrid" design on all levels with the last game. I just genuinely find it amusing, not only in case of DOW III, but other communities as well, how certain individuals cannot accept the reality, even when developer itself pretty much admits and proves everything that was pointed out to be wrong with the product.
Rather presumptious of you to claim I haven't been following discussions. Please tell me that comment was something less feeble than a disguised post-count comparison exercise.
The campaign can use some improvement, sure, but as I already pointed out, there are contradictory views on what people would do to fix it. And actually, I don't find fault with the fundamental setup - just that the missions themselves weren't that fun and the story wasn't strong enough to compensate. It's very easy to say "just make it better, duh", but that's a low-effort criticism that holds zero constructive value.
Moving on, okay, so Relic picks either the DoW1 or DoW2 formula, and "heavily improves upon it". Whoops, no-one can agree what counts as "heavy improvement", and anything that returns in a modified form is called a "shallow hybrid". Whoops, the DoW1/2 fans are now unhappy that Relic picked DoW2/1 as the base. Gee, turns out this is actually more difficult than you make it sound.
Moving on, okay, so Relic picks either the DoW1 or DoW2 formula, and "heavily improves upon it". Whoops, no-one can agree what counts as "heavy improvement", and anything that returns in a modified form is called a "shallow hybrid". Whoops, the DoW1/2 fans are now unhappy that Relic picked DoW2/1 as the base. Gee, turns out this is actually more difficult than you make it sound.
So I guess that Dow3's fate was sealed with its announcement even before THQ's bankcruptcy. Going to Dow1 route, fans of Dow2 are pissed, going to Dow2 route, fans of Dow1 are pissed, trying to go merge Dow1 with Dow2 while adding something new, both groups of fanbase are pissed.
I guess making Dow2 with different formula was a mistake for Relic, but I can't blame them. They just wanted to be innovative. But I eventually liked all three of Dawn of Wars even if they were different from each other.
I eventually wouldn't mind which route they will go with Dow4, if it ever would announce, but would be nice if it was a Dow1 remake, meaning big battles and base building with some Dow2 traits like wargear and Hero units. And with the well-made factions as we had in Dow3. That would be a nice mix to me.
Innovation carries a risk, but I don't think anyone would ever accept an HD remake of an earlier title as a true sequel. Things have to be allowed to evolve.
And when they do, odds are people aren't going to be completely happy. DoW1 got away with a lot, being the first. With DoW2, those who didn't like the shift towards CoHesque gameplay had to learn to take the good with the bad. By the time DoW3 rolled around, the idea of compromising on one's ideal in the name of allowing necessary innovation seemed like a total anathema to this community, and that's why some of us take the view that the community helped strangle the title before it could hit its stride.
Nothing, I'm afraid, quite so easily refutable as the straw man "It's the community's fault they didn't like it".
@Draconix said:
So I guess that Dow3's fate was sealed with its announcement even before THQ's bankcruptcy. Going to Dow1 route, fans of Dow2 are pissed, going to Dow2 route, fans of Dow1 are pissed, trying to go merge Dow1 with Dow2 while adding something new, both groups of fanbase are pissed.
Well, let's get it clear - it wasn't hybrid clearly from DoW and DoW II elements. There were elements from other games, those elements, which were taken from previous DoW games were reworked (and as it became known - not such good rework as, maybe, Relic thought).
@Draconix said:
They just wanted to be innovative.
Well, I can't say I don't like DoW II. Fans tolerated such turn, but it doesn't seem someone ASKED. Every innovation must be justified, it mustn't be innovation for the sake of innovation. And if you wanna make something globally innovative, then you should change name; I don't think someone accepted Terminator 2 if it suddenly turned out to be comedy with elements of action.
But you know, thry turned it once and people ate this. But it was a bit stupid to think people will buy into it again. There should be measure, you can't fool your fanbase over and over. Wanna make something new - do not fool everybody and name it other way/claim soft reboot or do something like this. This is how it usually works.
Actually took the time to register here because I noticed Ben posting. Figured I would add my 2 cents on the game as well.
I am a casual player. In fact I didn't even know what Warhammer was until DOW 2 came out. I enjoyed the game so much I picked up DOW 1 as well. Years later and I still find myself playing through the DOW 2/Chaos Rising campaign or hopping into The Last Stand from time to time. So when I heard DOW 3 was coming I had high hopes.
Let me start by saying overall DOW 3 is a decent game. Though I do think it has a bit of an identity crisis. It's like this weird sort of RTS/MOBA mix that can be fun but leaves you with the feeling that your not really getting what you wanted from either of the genre's. That being said as a casual player this isn't what really bothered me about the game. If I had to pick one thing that really got under my skin with this title it would be the campaign.
What made the DOW series great to me was the story, especially in DOW 2. You had this great dialog along with reasons to go out of your way to do additional side quests for gear along with more story information. You felt tied to your characters. There was a feeling of investment that you put into each one of them that simply does not exist in DOW 3. In fact, not only is there no feeling of investment within your heroes themselves there is zero attachment to the story. Every single time you find yourself in a position of wanting to know more you are forced to play another faction. This leads to a loss of attachment to the faction your currently playing along with this random point of view outlook that breaks up any sense of cohesion within the story itself. To me it was border line infuriating. So much so that I didn't even bother finishing the campaign until a couple of months after my initial purchase. I just couldn't believe how bad it was especially compared to prior installments in the franchise.
Considering the legions of Warhammer fans I see here on these boards I do not think enough effort was given in this department. I am sure 90% of what you see on these boards is about multiplayer and balance. However I am willing to bet most of the players here are Warhammer lore nuts too. If I could give one piece of advice for the future it would be to not simply make the single player experience take a back seat to multiplayer. For the casual masses like myself who don't even know what Warhammer is the single player experience sets the introduction. It is what hooks us and makes us want to know more. To try playing online and get more involved within the game itself. As I stated before I didn't even know what Warhammer/DOW was until I randomly picked up DOW 2 all those years ago. The single player experience of DOW 2 is what led me to purchase DOW 1 along with all the expansions offered for both titles. I would have never even known about or purchased DOW 3 if I had a negative experience playing through the campaigns of its successor titles. So please in the future do not make the mistake of thinking the campaign doesn't matter. It has more impact than you think.
Lastly, while I can understand this title losing support due to financial obligations there is one area I think you are making a mistake. I was very shocked that this game didn't launch with a Last Stand mode. Considering the potential for additional revenue from character purchases or gear unlocks I hope this area is something you may consider revisiting with DOW 3 in the future. As a casual player I love The Last Stand because it fits my schedule. It is something I can just hop into randomly for a short period of time and have fun with it. Again it gives you a feeling of attachment to your characters because your leveling/gearing up your characters along with a sense of community due to playing with friends (or strangers). For The Last Stand I also purchased all of the gear/char unlocks and if you were to log on even today the que is still pretty much insta-pop for finding a match. I believe this is a testament to how popular this simple two map mode really is. And as stated above, it has the bonus of more incoming revenue for you.
Anyway I will wrap it up here. Hopefully you didn't find anything to harsh as that is not what this post is meant to be. Just my own personal feedback/observations on DOW 3. It is my hope that someday in the future we will see another DOW title. And who knows, maybe the feedback given within these boards can help it be the game we all hope for it to be.
I hope in your next games (in case they let you do more games at all) you'll get rid of game mechanics, that can't be affected by players. I'm talking about armor penetration in COH2 and economic phases in DOW3. Those are the most senseless mechanics, when an ISU-152 can't penetrate a Brumbar, but a single T-34-76 can penetrate a Jagdtiger, and when orcs get enormous income bonus of resourses and game mechanics. Usually it's very hard to show your personal skill.
well.... we don't need your f... new skins but better gameplay and new elites,unites or better ! MOD ! i hope you will never touch a warhammer game in the futur cause you kill it and age of empire will do the same because you su... for leaving dow3 , i really hate you.... not uporting dow3 was your biggest error
Your right man this game is great an Relic / SEGA do an incredible mistake to not support it less than 1 year after it start.
Dow 1 and dow 2 don't have been built as they are in 8 months. At this time, steamcharts did not exist and those games should have probably be abandonned too with the same logic.
Relic / SEGA don't want to give dow 3 to take is place in dow serie, while the game is amazing an just need a 4th race (=Chaos) to make more an more players coming.
By annoucing they stop support, they have created so much deception and frustration in dow community. I hope they will reamise their mistake and change their mind
Your right man this game is great an Relic / SEGA do an incredible mistake to not support it less than 1 year after it start.
Dow 1 and dow 2 don't have been built as they are in 8 months. At this time, steamcharts did not exist and those games should have probably be abandonned too with the same logic.
Relic / SEGA don't want to give dow 3 to take is place in dow serie, while the game is amazing an just need a 4th race (=Chaos) to make more an more players coming.
By annoucing they stop support, they have created so much deception and frustration in dow community. I hope they will reamise their mistake and change their mind
Me to I hope so.
Still I'll will endure the pain. There are other games to play or wait for them, but DoW franchise, with Dow3 included always be one of my favorite RTS games. Meanwhile I will look how AoE4 will shape up, though I'm more curious about Relic's unnaunced project (maybe Coh3 ) but right now I'm looking forward to play Spellforce 3 and wait for Iron Harvest, unless it won't have base building or to recruit units, then I will pass on it. Thought RTS aren't the only my favorite genre, I like racing games too, especially with cars, so I might try Gravel from Milestone as well.
As for Dow4, not sure if it ever will be after Dow3's fiasco, but who knows. But even if so, I hardly doubt that might succed Dow1 or even Dow2. But as a enthusiast of RTS, I might add it to my collection, regardless how it will shape it up, but I would personally like it to be more like Dow1, but with some traits from Dow2, like Hero units and Wargear and even with at least a same or improved faction mechanics as we had in Dow3. That would be a very nice mix to me.
Were there any plans for skulls other than unlocking the armies? Did Relic intend to have other things that could be purchased with skulls?
That was pretty much it although it was a more important system when cosmetics were going to be real-money purchases. You'd have the option to buy X skin for $Y or you could unlock the same skin for Z skulls -- no content would have been locked behind a pay gate.
So, ah, basically your assumption in the other thread was right on the money.
@charlando said:
Well I guess maybe DOW3 hadto sacrafice so that AO4 has a better dev process. Not really an AOE fan so, im just gonna watch it play out.
I'm not that into AOE either but if the combat is similar to DOW3, I'll try to get into it. If the combat is fun and it attracts a lot of casual players, I can see myself slaughtering fools in PvP.
@charlando said:
Well I guess maybe DOW3 hadto sacrafice so that AO4 has a better dev process. Not really an AOE fan so, im just gonna watch it play out.
I'm not that into AOE either but if the combat is similar to DOW3, I'll try to get into it. If the combat is fun and it attracts a lot of casual players, I can see myself slaughtering fools in PvP.
AoE series was always about SC2 like spamming on everything with 4 resources instead of 2, so.... don't get your hopes up.
I do not think they're going to do a dow 4 after what happened, remember after what happened on command and conquer 4 later never heard of kane again, although to tell the truth that if it was a really fat ++heresy redacted++. What has happened to relic is that he has played with our hype with the news in February
I do not think they're going to do a dow 4 after what happened, remember after what happened on command and conquer 4 later never heard of kane again, although to tell the truth that if it was a really fat ++heresy redacted++. What has happened to relic is that he has played with our hype with the news in February
The thing is what I know, is that CnC4 was intended to be last of Tiberian series, or at least the last with Kane storyline. Even if it wasn't a huge success, it fullfiled its role as a ending to GDI vs NOD long standing conflict storyline.
Interestingly there was also a Generals 2, before it was turned into F2P title before ultimately cancelled. But I still remember a news later that CnC might come back, but if they would continue a Tiberian series, then probably without Kane, shifting focus to GDI vs Scrin. Unless they will do a reboot to Tiberian series.
As for DoW, not sure if Dow4 will be ever possible after Dow3 fiasco, but who knows. Yet, if it appears, it will another game that I will gladly add it to my collection, since I'm not just DoW franchise fan, but also enthusiast of RTS with my open minded taste.
@Draconix said:
As for DoW, not sure if Dow4 will be ever possible after Dow3 fiasco, but who knows. Yet, if it appears, it will another game that I will gladly add it to my collection, since I'm not just DoW franchise fan, but also enthusiast of RTS with my open minded taste.
If anything, the initial sales for DoW III support the case for another DoW game. The fan base is here.
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Comments
r_benb
I don't know if anything is coming for sure so I definitely can't speak to specifics. I can promise to pop back and let you know if anything firms up.
Martin
ok, I be patiently waiting for announcement of necron gabriel skin.
Draconix
Pity, I would prefer new maps than skins, but okay. I understand.
LeemanRuss
offtopic RELICians are u still hunger for a spacemarine 2 sequel that game was a amazing .its almost 7 years
Chronoslayer
Yep. Space Marine was definitely a good one With a narrative primed for a 2nd installment. Since Relic's currently in development but not yet announced project was first mentioned, I've been hoping its Space Marine 2.
charlando
I recall in the steam forums any time a newcomer posted a topic along the lines of "How is this game?" or "Should I get this?" 5-15 people immediately came out of the woodwork to trash it with vague answers like "the emperor has condemned this game". Most of the time none of them owned the game.
Mixed reviews? Thats strange because off the reviews I see when I scroll down are negative.
Wait, maybe its because the negative reviews are higher quality and more detailed. Lets take a look at the top review.
"I'm disappointed"
952 out of 1161 users found this review helpful
Lockerd
and the first five minutes, the majority of negative reviews were literally one liners with people just saying the same copy/paste ++heresy redacted++ about how it was literally just a moba, even into the campaign.
Hell some of the steam forums had a few alts who kept circle jerking themselves, we only caught them because they made responses for posts before they made the posts in a thread.
There were valid criticisms and huge threads hitting the game with a lot of good reasons why they didn't like the game, but those reviews were overshadowed by the 90% of negatives which were 0.1hrs playtime and did the same copy/paste ++heresy redacted++ while saying "I played the beta" not realizing we could see if they could or couldn't from their profile page.
Even the steam forums had a few alts who kept circle jerking themselves, we only caught them because they made responses for posts before they made the posts in a thread.
I have seen people who hate Dawn of War 3, but never played the game, or actually looked into it outside of their favorite youtubers. Some of my friends were ++heresy redacted++ shocked when they actually played it and found it wasn't as bad as those particular youtubers made it out to be. I know people who still believe the game is literally a piece for piece moba, but can't actually defend their claims when asked to actually describe what a moba is and how DoW3 is one.
Anyone who says there weren't groups who did their best to make things worse, is probably one of them.
Stoner
Bringing up mixed reviews is funny argument, especially if you check playtime of most people who "liked" this game. And that's important since it has no SP content and supposed to be MP focused, which suggests high general playtime across multiple sessions. And another funny thing that some positive reviews, which aren't just 2 word memes, but rather comprehensive, tend to point out more negatives than positives.
This "salty neckbeards killed this games" argument is getting old. You can check pretty much any shovelware on Steam or any other platform which is obvious fail form any possible perspective with 90% of negative ratings. And on some official/community forums you will always find 5-10 cultists, who zealously defend their favorite game. Of course people have different tastes, and some of us may enjoy total ++heresy redacted++ of a game from objective point of view. Hell, I personally find Dragon Age 2 fantastic game, best in the series and enjoyed it immensely, but I don't go shoving it down others throats. I perfectly understand that majority doesn't like it, and why exactly.
And my favorite argument: please go check MOBA or even SC2 community boards, and please explain me how some mythical PR successfully battles negativity. Hint: nobody does. Now, please check playerbase and overall popularity. I think anyone can make make very decisive conclusions based on this.
Ifitmovesnukeit
I think it's pretty cute that you, as someone who clearly dislikes the game, come to a community forum about the game to engage with fans of the game to tell them that most of the people who share their opinion only "liked" the game, yet somehow we're the ones shoving our opinion down your throat.
But I'll bite and attempt to be constructive, because there is one point you made that stands out to me, and that's you understanding "why exactly" people don't like a game.
Because when I try to establish "why exactly" people don't like DoW3, the best I can hope for is 16 different contradictory opinions. It should have had a DoW2-style campaign. Or a DC-style one. It should have had retreat, no wait, DoW1's morale system. It should have shipped with Victory Point mode as the default gametype. No wait, Annihilate. And so on ad nauseam.
The worst, of course, are the outright lies about the game being a MOBA, or forced memes about backflipping terminators and something something C.S. Goto.
So by all means, say why you think the game was unpopular. But don't think for a minute that fixing it is as easy as implementing your own exact specifications.
Stoner
We will be walking in circles here... There are certain negatives pretty much everyone agrees on (like campaign), and to make it short, considering you haven't been following any discussions so far and have no idea what opinions people express (constructively), an easy answer would be to go for either formula, DOW I or DOW II, and heavy improve on it. It was Relic's fault they split playerbase like that, and there was very little chance that by splitting playerbase 3-ways this time, they would get more people on board, especially with such shallow "Hybrid" design on all levels with the last game. I just genuinely find it amusing, not only in case of DOW III, but other communities as well, how certain individuals cannot accept the reality, even when developer itself pretty much admits and proves everything that was pointed out to be wrong with the product.
Ifitmovesnukeit
Rather presumptious of you to claim I haven't been following discussions. Please tell me that comment was something less feeble than a disguised post-count comparison exercise.
The campaign can use some improvement, sure, but as I already pointed out, there are contradictory views on what people would do to fix it. And actually, I don't find fault with the fundamental setup - just that the missions themselves weren't that fun and the story wasn't strong enough to compensate. It's very easy to say "just make it better, duh", but that's a low-effort criticism that holds zero constructive value.
Moving on, okay, so Relic picks either the DoW1 or DoW2 formula, and "heavily improves upon it". Whoops, no-one can agree what counts as "heavy improvement", and anything that returns in a modified form is called a "shallow hybrid". Whoops, the DoW1/2 fans are now unhappy that Relic picked DoW2/1 as the base. Gee, turns out this is actually more difficult than you make it sound.
Draconix
So I guess that Dow3's fate was sealed with its announcement even before THQ's bankcruptcy. Going to Dow1 route, fans of Dow2 are pissed, going to Dow2 route, fans of Dow1 are pissed, trying to go merge Dow1 with Dow2 while adding something new, both groups of fanbase are pissed.
I guess making Dow2 with different formula was a mistake for Relic, but I can't blame them. They just wanted to be innovative. But I eventually liked all three of Dawn of Wars even if they were different from each other.
I eventually wouldn't mind which route they will go with Dow4, if it ever would announce, but would be nice if it was a Dow1 remake, meaning big battles and base building with some Dow2 traits like wargear and Hero units. And with the well-made factions as we had in Dow3. That would be a nice mix to me.
Ifitmovesnukeit
Innovation carries a risk, but I don't think anyone would ever accept an HD remake of an earlier title as a true sequel. Things have to be allowed to evolve.
And when they do, odds are people aren't going to be completely happy. DoW1 got away with a lot, being the first. With DoW2, those who didn't like the shift towards CoHesque gameplay had to learn to take the good with the bad. By the time DoW3 rolled around, the idea of compromising on one's ideal in the name of allowing necessary innovation seemed like a total anathema to this community, and that's why some of us take the view that the community helped strangle the title before it could hit its stride.
Nothing, I'm afraid, quite so easily refutable as the straw man "It's the community's fault they didn't like it".
The_Great_ASD
Well, let's get it clear - it wasn't hybrid clearly from DoW and DoW II elements. There were elements from other games, those elements, which were taken from previous DoW games were reworked (and as it became known - not such good rework as, maybe, Relic thought).
Well, I can't say I don't like DoW II. Fans tolerated such turn, but it doesn't seem someone ASKED. Every innovation must be justified, it mustn't be innovation for the sake of innovation. And if you wanna make something globally innovative, then you should change name; I don't think someone accepted Terminator 2 if it suddenly turned out to be comedy with elements of action.
But you know, thry turned it once and people ate this. But it was a bit stupid to think people will buy into it again. There should be measure, you can't fool your fanbase over and over. Wanna make something new - do not fool everybody and name it other way/claim soft reboot or do something like this. This is how it usually works.
Halftrack
Actually took the time to register here because I noticed Ben posting. Figured I would add my 2 cents on the game as well.
I am a casual player. In fact I didn't even know what Warhammer was until DOW 2 came out. I enjoyed the game so much I picked up DOW 1 as well. Years later and I still find myself playing through the DOW 2/Chaos Rising campaign or hopping into The Last Stand from time to time. So when I heard DOW 3 was coming I had high hopes.
Let me start by saying overall DOW 3 is a decent game. Though I do think it has a bit of an identity crisis. It's like this weird sort of RTS/MOBA mix that can be fun but leaves you with the feeling that your not really getting what you wanted from either of the genre's. That being said as a casual player this isn't what really bothered me about the game. If I had to pick one thing that really got under my skin with this title it would be the campaign.
What made the DOW series great to me was the story, especially in DOW 2. You had this great dialog along with reasons to go out of your way to do additional side quests for gear along with more story information. You felt tied to your characters. There was a feeling of investment that you put into each one of them that simply does not exist in DOW 3. In fact, not only is there no feeling of investment within your heroes themselves there is zero attachment to the story. Every single time you find yourself in a position of wanting to know more you are forced to play another faction. This leads to a loss of attachment to the faction your currently playing along with this random point of view outlook that breaks up any sense of cohesion within the story itself. To me it was border line infuriating. So much so that I didn't even bother finishing the campaign until a couple of months after my initial purchase. I just couldn't believe how bad it was especially compared to prior installments in the franchise.
Considering the legions of Warhammer fans I see here on these boards I do not think enough effort was given in this department. I am sure 90% of what you see on these boards is about multiplayer and balance. However I am willing to bet most of the players here are Warhammer lore nuts too. If I could give one piece of advice for the future it would be to not simply make the single player experience take a back seat to multiplayer. For the casual masses like myself who don't even know what Warhammer is the single player experience sets the introduction. It is what hooks us and makes us want to know more. To try playing online and get more involved within the game itself. As I stated before I didn't even know what Warhammer/DOW was until I randomly picked up DOW 2 all those years ago. The single player experience of DOW 2 is what led me to purchase DOW 1 along with all the expansions offered for both titles. I would have never even known about or purchased DOW 3 if I had a negative experience playing through the campaigns of its successor titles. So please in the future do not make the mistake of thinking the campaign doesn't matter. It has more impact than you think.
Lastly, while I can understand this title losing support due to financial obligations there is one area I think you are making a mistake. I was very shocked that this game didn't launch with a Last Stand mode. Considering the potential for additional revenue from character purchases or gear unlocks I hope this area is something you may consider revisiting with DOW 3 in the future. As a casual player I love The Last Stand because it fits my schedule. It is something I can just hop into randomly for a short period of time and have fun with it. Again it gives you a feeling of attachment to your characters because your leveling/gearing up your characters along with a sense of community due to playing with friends (or strangers). For The Last Stand I also purchased all of the gear/char unlocks and if you were to log on even today the que is still pretty much insta-pop for finding a match. I believe this is a testament to how popular this simple two map mode really is. And as stated above, it has the bonus of more incoming revenue for you.
Anyway I will wrap it up here. Hopefully you didn't find anything to harsh as that is not what this post is meant to be. Just my own personal feedback/observations on DOW 3. It is my hope that someday in the future we will see another DOW title. And who knows, maybe the feedback given within these boards can help it be the game we all hope for it to be.
12ozMouse
I hope in your next games (in case they let you do more games at all) you'll get rid of game mechanics, that can't be affected by players. I'm talking about armor penetration in COH2 and economic phases in DOW3. Those are the most senseless mechanics, when an ISU-152 can't penetrate a Brumbar, but a single T-34-76 can penetrate a Jagdtiger, and when orcs get enormous income bonus of resourses and game mechanics. Usually it's very hard to show your personal skill.
Psykapott
well.... we don't need your f... new skins but better gameplay and new elites,unites or better ! MOD ! i hope you will never touch a warhammer game in the futur cause you kill it and age of empire will do the same because you su... for leaving dow3 , i really hate you.... not uporting dow3 was your biggest error
AstartesUltra
not uporting dow3 was your biggest error
Your right man this game is great an Relic / SEGA do an incredible mistake to not support it less than 1 year after it start.
Dow 1 and dow 2 don't have been built as they are in 8 months. At this time, steamcharts did not exist and those games should have probably be abandonned too with the same logic.
Relic / SEGA don't want to give dow 3 to take is place in dow serie, while the game is amazing an just need a 4th race (=Chaos) to make more an more players coming.
By annoucing they stop support, they have created so much deception and frustration in dow community. I hope they will reamise their mistake and change their mind
Draconix
Me to I hope so.
Still I'll will endure the pain. There are other games to play or wait for them, but DoW franchise, with Dow3 included always be one of my favorite RTS games.
Meanwhile I will look how AoE4 will shape up, though I'm more curious about Relic's unnaunced project (maybe Coh3 
) but right now I'm looking forward to play Spellforce 3 and wait for Iron Harvest, unless it won't have base building or to recruit units, then I will pass on it. Thought RTS aren't the only my favorite genre, I like racing games too, especially with cars, so I might try Gravel from Milestone as well. 
As for Dow4, not sure if it ever will be after Dow3's fiasco, but who knows. But even if so, I hardly doubt that might succed Dow1 or even Dow2. But as a enthusiast of RTS, I might add it to my collection, regardless how it will shape it up, but I would personally like it to be more like Dow1, but with some traits from Dow2, like Hero units and Wargear and even with at least a same or improved faction mechanics as we had in Dow3. That would be a very nice mix to me.
TokyoDream
@r_benb
Were there any plans for skulls other than unlocking the armies? Did Relic intend to have other things that could be purchased with skulls?
r_benb
That was pretty much it although it was a more important system when cosmetics were going to be real-money purchases. You'd have the option to buy X skin for $Y or you could unlock the same skin for Z skulls -- no content would have been locked behind a pay gate.
So, ah, basically your assumption in the other thread was right on the money.
charlando
Well I guess maybe DOW3 hadto sacrafice so that AO4 has a better dev process. Not really an AOE fan so, im just gonna watch it play out.
TokyoDream
I'm not that into AOE either but if the combat is similar to DOW3, I'll try to get into it. If the combat is fun and it attracts a lot of casual players, I can see myself slaughtering fools in PvP.
Katitof
AoE series was always about SC2 like spamming on everything with 4 resources instead of 2, so.... don't get your hopes up.
Heraldir
I do not think they're going to do a dow 4 after what happened, remember after what happened on command and conquer 4 later never heard of kane again, although to tell the truth that if it was a really fat ++heresy redacted++. What has happened to relic is that he has played with our hype with the news in February
Draconix
The thing is what I know, is that CnC4 was intended to be last of Tiberian series, or at least the last with Kane storyline. Even if it wasn't a huge success, it fullfiled its role as a ending to GDI vs NOD long standing conflict storyline.
Interestingly there was also a Generals 2, before it was turned into F2P title before ultimately cancelled. But I still remember a news later that CnC might come back, but if they would continue a Tiberian series, then probably without Kane, shifting focus to GDI vs Scrin. Unless they will do a reboot to Tiberian series.
As for DoW, not sure if Dow4 will be ever possible after Dow3 fiasco, but who knows. Yet, if it appears, it will another game that I will gladly add it to my collection, since I'm not just DoW franchise fan, but also enthusiast of RTS with my open minded taste.
Amoc
If anything, the initial sales for DoW III support the case for another DoW game. The fan base is here.