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My Full Review for DAWN OF WAR 3. (Due to requests)
FabricatorGeneral
I have been playing and modding Dawn of War, since the first Dawn of War came out. I love Dawn of War more than any other Video Game franchise, since it was introduced to me as a child, playing on my cousins expensive computer.
Despite having the greatest potential of any game in the franchise, it was abandoned by Relic for Age of Empires 4 due to poor sales and reception. This should already warn you that the game is dead. Dawn of War 3 is a mixed bag of good and bad things. Whether you should buy it is completely up to you. I believe that if you have never played Dawn of War before, or are new to the 40,000 universe, you won’t even notice the games flaws. This is an honest and in depth review, so I will start with the worst aspects of this game, so you know you aren't wasting your time.
THE BAD (there is a lot I warn you)
- Power Core mode essentially turns the game into a MOBA with the Elites to serve as Heroes. Power Core mode prevents players from rushing the enemy, or using any meaningful early game tactics, like builder hunting. Too bad the game shipped without Annihilation and only Power Core mode, which is arguably the worst game mode ever designed. The Power Cores broke the lore of 40k, and the gameplay of Dawn of War 3. This game mode allows HQ structures that have been destroyed to magically self regenerate. (Regenerating bases only found in Dawn of War 3 RTS) I believe. It is just terrible and whomever agreed to this is a fool.
Comments
FabricatorGeneral
Overpowered Elites, but not indepth Elites. The Elites of Dawn of War 3 are cool, it has to be said. However half of them are useless, and half of them are overpowered. This is due to many factors, such as base stats, abilities and doctrines. However the big problem here is Doctrines and especially Abilities. The overpowered and useful Elites have army slaying abilities with little to no counter play, especially in a fast game like Dawn of War 3. A Gorkanaut can 1 shot your entire army with its asteroid fist, for example. I admit it makes sense and can be seen as cool by the developers, but from a game design perspective, this is very toxic. Especially for slow units like tanks and heavy weapons teams who will have trouble getting out of the way, especially with all the crowd control in game. Kill Team Ironmaw is an Elite picked by every decent Space Marine player for early map pressure and map control. Solaria makes whirlwinds stupidly OP, and is a must in any team games. Venerable Dreadnought makes plasma guns never overheat. So why should anyone use... I don't know... Jonah Orion for example. Some Elites are simply better than others, and will affect your army in a bigger way. They also cannot gain no experience and have these easy 1 click abilities for shield, damage, or buff. This leaves them feeling stale, unfinished and lack luster.
Throwaway line units. This is an argument that many make, and can be justified to some extent. Note that I disagree with this absurd notion, but Elites with big damage abilities will make your armies feel like paper. Kiss your infantry good bye. With the press of a button. Want to invade their base? Impossible unless you deal with their Power Core defences. Prepare to lose more units to factors outside of your control and actual in game skill, with microing your army.
Resource rate is horrible. Requisition rate is high which allows players to "spam" a lot of "throw away" units, while low Power rate, prevents meaningful tech, or unit production. Basically the game is very very slow at the start of each match. As you try to best each other in map control with your petty tier 1 units, because the game will not allow you to tech, because the Power Core mode phase 1 really limits your Power income. Note to the developer on this. (TAKING POWER AWAY FROM THE PLAYER, FORCING THEM TO PLAY AS YOU WANT THEM TO, AND LIMITING THEIR CHOICES AND STRATEGIES TO ONLY A FEW VIABLE ONES, IS BY FAR THE BIGGEST SIN OF DAWN OF WAR 3, AND IS A RECURRING THEME IN THIS GAMES DESIGN.) Had to get that off my chest... this is like a forced meta or something.
FabricatorGeneral
Bad story. Now I actually enjoyed most of the story personally. I actually wanted this kind of story telling again, as it is much more emmersive than say, meaninglessly conquering a territory in Dawn of War Dark Crusade, then having some narrator tell you a boring back story, of the effects of your actions. One of my favorite campaigns is from the original Dawn of War, (SPOILER) where Gabriel Angelos has no choice but to kill his traitorous friend Isador. Where SINDRIIIIIII betrays Bale to become a Daemon Prince. This Campaign had meaning, character, depth, EMOTION, and story. It was not about a pointless battle, it was about the struggle between order and chaos. Dawn of War Winter Assault also has a good story. However Dawn of War 3s story does feel like a glorified multiplayer tutorial. There is again a lack of player control and choice, and a lack of direction really. Just do this, do that. Characterization in Dawn of War 3s campaign is fantastic though. I loved the tension between Angelos and Inquisitor Holt. I loved how Ranger Rohnahn was messing with the Orks. I loved the political and conscious talks between Jain Zar and Macha. What I did not like, were the final enemies. Including the Final Boss... WHO IS SOME NO FACE LOSER WITH NO REAL BACK STORY, AND DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A NAME! Even one of our "heroes" Macha, Angelos, or Gorgutz would have made a much better villian. Trying not to spoil anything here but the ending is very disappointing. How the final boss was introduced was cool, but with no speech from him, no decent non generic back story, fighting him felt like a waste of time. This unfortunately casts an even darker shadow on Dawn of War 3s campaign. All the good characters to compare to the poor antagonist. Opportunity ruined. Seriously though who is he, and why do I care? Basic story writing flaws.
Poor cover design. In Dawn of War 3 there are now magical lore breaking bubble cover pockets on the map, that prevent your units from taking ranged damage. Better yet these magical forcefields randomly found on arrangements of ork scrap, and other meaningless barricades, prevent enemy units from entering but only if they are ranged units! This breaks both the Lore, and gameplay. Again limiting player options, either FORCING the player to get melee units to breach the cover. Or flamers to burn the units inside, which are only accessible to Space Marines. Nice. In the original Dawn of War, cover could be positive or negative, granting a buff or a nerf to your units inside, and never granting invulnerabilty to ranged damage! In Dawn of War 2 you could hide behind cover and garrison buildings which could be cleared with grenades. In Dawn of War 3 you get magical immunity bubble! Do you see the problem here?
FabricatorGeneral
No maps. The game released like a demo. It had like 4 maps. No words needed.
Terrible user interface. There used to be no scroll menu to select your army paint schemes. So you could not even select your custom armies, in the multiplayer menu. So what was the point of the army painter again? Let that sink in. Not smart. Also... THINGS ARE STILL NOT ORGANIZED IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER! I DO NOT KNOW HOW THIS GETS PASSED YOU GUYS! Needless to say, Dawn of War 3 is not comparable to the order of the Imperium, but rather to the Chaos of the Warp. It REALLY makes you question, if the developers played their own game. Don’t get me started on the balance…
Incomplete army painter. Remember when you could make custom badges and banners for your armies? Like in the original Dawn of War. How many times would you see players flying their banners depicting penises, or angry marines, or tits, or MATT WARD, or anything else you could imagine with their level of maturity? Not here unfortunately. Not in Dawn of War 3. No Hello Kitty Marines for you. It is a great disservice to the Warhammer community. Seriously though WTF.
No Annhilation match making. Basically they finally brought out the classic Annihilation game mode, where you have to destroy your enemies base to win. Like in any RTS. However you cannot play it in ranked matchmaking! Again you must play power core if you want to play competitive!
NO 3D CAMERA! By the Emperor this game was designed to fail! Do you know HOW MANY COOL VIDEOS COULD BE MADE WITH A 3D CAMERA? THINK OF ALL THE PICTURES/VIDEOS/PUBLICITY YOU COULD HAVE FROM YOUR FANBASE! IT IS FREE ADVERTISING ++heresy redacted++! So you make the game pretty, but do not allow players to appreciate the true beauty up close? I have no words. However I do have insight to share. The Skyboxes and some areas of maps, are incomplete, and viewing them from any other angle, would reveal to you that the game was rushed. However we all know the game was rushed. We know. There is no need to hide it. If you’re curious of the power of a 3D camera, in Dawn of War 3, watch this video for my DEATHWATCH mod.
FabricatorGeneral
FabricatorGeneral
Okay this is a big topic, one that really affects not only the fans of the Dawn of War franchise, but also the Warhammer 40,000 universe. this has had a detrimental effect on customer morale. You know morale? It is the genius game mechanic from the previous games. Morale was not present in Dawn of War 3… how poetic. Dawn of War 3 breaks immersion in limited, yet fundamental ways. What do I mean by limited yet fundamental you ask? Well imagine you are playing a first person shooter, when suddenly Mario jumps across your screen. You watch in shock as SUPER MARIO FROM NINTENDO, is jumping all over the place, only in the case of Dawn of War 3 it isn't Mario. It's Gabriel Angelos. Let that sink in. Some of you may argue that it's not a big deal, lots of weirder things happen in 40k, than a Space Marine doing front flips in HEAVY TERMINATOR ARMOR. Well those weirder things tend to happen in the warp, so your argument is invalid. You see there are rules to every universe, even the one you currently live in! Big surprise I know! So it is pretty much the same idea as Mario interrupting your Battlefield match. This game does Tzeentch proud. Anyways that is just one example. Other examples of fundamental problems, would be the power core game mode, and magic bubbles. In the end, due to some over the top wacky animations and core gameplay, Dawn of War 3 can at times feel... wrong, for lack of a better word. Want more examples? WHAT HAPPENED TO LASCANNONS!? WHY DOES JAIN ZAR NEED TO JUMP 30 FEET IN THE AIR FOR EVERY AUTO ATTACK!? Why does this game sometimes feel like something from an arcade? It is very Looney Tunes. (SPOILER) Why must you allow factions to make alliances, with races they SHOULD NOT BE associating with? You are making the Blood Angels and Necrons Best Friends for Life, mistake again. Get a better writer.
FabricatorGeneral
Now let's talk about voice acting. In my opinion the voice acting of Dawn of War 3 is surprisingly good! Not as bad as people make it out to be. However there are still small yet big problems again. First off, Macha is cool. However Gorgutz and Gabriel sound... different. Gorgutz no longer has a grumbing brooding bad ++heresy redacted++ voice. Now he sounds like an immature grunt having wayyy too much fun. He should be hell bent on vengeance. Gabriel Angelos sounds decent. But it is not the right voice actor. It is like when they swapped out characters from Game of Thrones. Very disappointing. However I understand that Relic may not have been able to get Paul for the role of Gabriel Angelos, so it is not their fault. The Eldar sound gloriously full of themselves, as they ride their own wraith bones, and blow their own soul stones. However they sound much less graceful. Although the Eldar voices are pretty good. The Space Marines on the other hand sound, like Imperial guard officers. There is not enough... SUPER HUMAN WARRIOR MONK, in their voices. Not enough vox distortion. They don't sound HOLY or RIGHTEOUS at all. I loved how they made the varied voices for the different Space Marine units. However they just sound like... a bunch of pissed off dudes. Looking at you Devastators. If you pushed their anger even more over the edge, than I'd expect them to be Chaos Marines. No joke. The Orks however... they are perfect! Spot on and goofy as hell. The Orks are the only race, who can be happy in the 40k universe! Let that sink in. Anyways most of the voice acting lines in Dawn of War 3 are lack luster and are basic yes/no commands. However some lines are genuinely really great and are over looked by the general public. For Example:
ORK: I DIDN'T THINK THEY MADE HUMIEZ THAT BIG!
ORK: SPACE MARINES ARE THE BEST! YOU GET TO EAT 2 HEARTS!
ORK: DEATH ALL OVER YOUR POINTY EADS! (ELDAR)
ORK: 1 SHOT MAYBE 12 I DON'T KNOW?! I’D LIKE TO SEE YOU DO BETTER!
Wait a minute... THE GOOD LINES ARE MAINLY FROM THE ORKS!
Big problem.
FabricatorGeneral
The balance of Dawn of War 3 was terrible on release which can be expected. However the problem here was the way the game was marketed. Yes many people assumed that Dawn of War 3 was more of a StarCraft MOBA than a Dawn of War RTS. People compared Eldar and shielding to Protoss, Space Marines to Terrans, and Orks WAAAGGHHHHHS to Zerg swarms. However Starcraft and MOBAs generally have decent to good balance. The balance of Dawn of War 3 was very bad, with the Eldar being obviously overpowered. The balance still suffers due to the doctrine and elite problem. So this game for most of its short life was not a competitive game, even if that was possibly the wish of the people who created it.
FabricatorGeneral
THE GOOD? WHERE?
First off you need to understand, that I am a prospecting personality. I see value in things where others do not, and thus can achieve what others cannot. So you may or may not agree with my opinion. To me Dawn of War 3 has the potential to be the best Dawn of War game in the franchise. Another man’s trash is another man’s treasure right? The good in Dawn of War 3 is in seeing the gold. So take off your rose tinted glasses, and set aside you nostalgia. Here is why, I think Dawn of War 3 is great.
Graphics
No matter how thick the frames of your rose tinted glasses are, I will not budge on my opinion that Dawn of War 3's art direction was perfect, for what Relic was trying to achieve. It displays large scale warfare gloriously, and retains a sense of urgency and action in the animations. So when you zoom out, you still feel like soldiers are still seriously trying to kill each other. You are also still able to tell what is what. Nothing is bland. Everything is rich, and meaningful information. The models despite what people say are very detailed, and well made. The detail does drop a little bit for the line units, so the game runs smoother. But even still the visuals are certainly an upgrade. Unless you’re a blind idiot... anyways I respect your opinion lol. I think it just works.
Theme
Dawn of War 3 is the most Grimdark of the 3 games imo. If you exclude the looney toons front flip nonsense. The music is dark, the voice acting is grudging, pessimistic and lacking in hope. Even the maps can be very dark. Dawn of War 3 is not built on the glory theme of the previous 2 games. No sunset and planting flags. No DAWN… only the darkness that comes after. Only death. "Death comes for all." It works wonders, and provides a powerful and mysterious atmosphere.
FabricatorGeneral
Tile sets/Props
Map tile sets and props have so much potential. From fighting in cities, to the warp, to space, there is so much that can be done, THAT WAS NOT DONE! There is so much to build upon with this game it is not even funny. It is akin to a man taking REAL MONEY, and because he thinks it is MONOPOLY money and thus of little value, he throws it in the garbage. Thank god for workshop maps, and Dawn of War 1 classics. I really appreciate my fellow modders.
Multiplayer and why the FANS EXPECT TOO MUCH (Sometimes)
Multiplayer is very fun. Although it was frustrating at release due to balance. However the multiplayer is sadly dead, and I suggest you join game nights, just to find a match. However it is very fun IMO. Sigh this game is such a big subject. It is really not easy to review or cover. Your multiplayer experience can also be very bad you see, due to a high number of noobs. Since the Matchmaking is no longer really functioning, you get paired with noobs in custom games. I want you to understand something. The player base for Dawn of War can be extremely ++heresy redacted++ sometimes, which is evident in Dawn of War 3. Let that sink in for a second. I know you might think I am insulting you, but not necessarily you personally. Think about it this way. We are not united in what we want from Dawn of War, everyone wants something different. For example when fans scream for a remake of Dawn of War 2, I say HELL NO! We are not all skilled players, and thus cannot even begin to suggest changes to balance. We are not all game designers, and cannot assume that making the Dawn of War 3 WE ALL WANT is easy. You know when Relic released buildable turrets for Dawn of War 3, the bad players were very happy. I thought it was cool, however I was very upset afterwards. First off you needed a doctrine to build turrets. The second problem was that noobs would build nothing but turrets. I cannot begin to describe to you my frustration, as I watched my allies build 10 turrets around the Power Core, in a 3v3 match, WHICH LEAD TO US LOSING THE ENTIRE MAP, ONLY TO LOSE ALL THEIR TURRETS TO A SINGLE DREADNOUGHT. I thought to myself, WTF is wrong with these people. These are the kinds of people who call themselves fans of Dawn of War. The people who want to play QuickSTART to turtle in base, from Dawn of War 1. The people who want to play Last Stand. People who do not know how to play THE ACTUAL GAME. There are people who do not favor Dawn of War, but prefer alternate game modes. So in multiplayer just like in EVERY OTHER ASPECT OF THE GAME… don’t expect too much. I want to make something VERY CLEAR, that might make me seem like a ++heresy redacted++. Due to the big differences in the Dawn of War community, NOT EVERY OPINION IS VALID OR EQUAL. Not even mine. Take everything with a grain of salt will ya? Especially all you salty people out there.
FabricatorGeneral
Blood/Gore and animations
The exploding bodies are nice. Although not on the level of sync kill gore. There are no more sync kills, they were removed. As a result the combat is more fluid in Dawn of War 3, no more awkward pauses to play a long animation. Maybe they could have added more "fast kill" animations though. Just to compensate. As much as I and every other fan loved the sync kills of the previous games, I must admit as a personal extreme try hard, that removing sync kills was one of the best things to happen to Dawn of War. I hated sync kills happening at the wrong times. Yes, it is a bad idea to flashily butcher your enemy, when you are alone and surrounded by 100 hostiles, who knew! Now you’re surrounded and tied up! CONGRATULATIONS! Sync kill animations not only caused far too many odd variables regarding balance, but it also bogged down the game play, and made battles much slower and more awkward than they had to be. Last but not least, they were fairly unrealistic, and the faster deaths of Dawn of War 3, truly fits its Grimdark nature and design. Would you waste time flashily killing one Ork, when a thousand more are barreling down on you? No… I think not. The sync kills will be missed though. Good bye Force Commander VS Blood Thirster. Good bye crazy, stabbing, ninja kicking, teleporting, Eldar Warp Spider. Crazy Warp Spider…
Scale
The scale of Dawn of War 3 is epic. The way imperial knights, gargants, and wraithknights are represented, is very satisfying. Although I don't know if Wraithknights should be able to jump. The scale is simply glorious, and better represents the madness of battle, better than the previous games. Better than the apocalypse mod. Although the Apocalypse mod put in a commendable effort on this front. Again, the game does a fantastic job of not losing clarity, even in the chaos of battle. However I can understand how people are dumbstruck, and cannot understand what is happening on screen. Either they never played the ++heresy redacted++ game, and are foolishly reading an excessively long review on whether to buy it or not. Or they are simply not used to the VERY FAST speed that Dawn of War 3 plays at. Things can escalate VERY QUICKLY, and your army can be dead before you know it! It can be very intense and very stressful. It keeps you on your toes and I love it. A true representation of what war is like. Not MARCH IN A STRAIGHT LINE, AND FIRE YOUR MUSKETS SLOWLY AT THE ENEMY LINE, UNTIL THEY FINALLY DIE! No none of that nonsense. Especially since the Area of Effect abilities of the Elite will DESTROY the BLOBS of troops you make. So spread out, and keep a diverse army. It is very tactical.
Orks
Mad max Orks works so ++heresy redacted++ well. The scrap mechanic, the animation, and everything else about them is perfect imo. They are truly the highlight race of Dawn of war 3. They are very fun and ludicrous to play. Looking at you KAMIKAZE Storm Boyz.
FabricatorGeneral
The Easy Button (RETREAT!)
PRAISE THE EMPEROR this feature was not re-implemented into Dawn of War 3. I never want to see battle brothers tip toe slowly into battle, only to get caught in a mess, and run for their lives screaming through all vox channels like little girls, EVER AGAIN. The retreat button to put it simply was heresy IMO. To those who argue that it added another layer of depth, because you had to use stuns and grenades to block off the path of retreating units, and flank them and so on. Well… can anyone really argue that such basic planning is viable and apparent, in EVERY OTHER RTS as well? There really does not need to be a speed buff for cowards. Retreats should be tactical and slow, with certain units in reserve to assist a retreat. Not a get out of jail free card, because the enemy has no crowd control or failed to use it effectively. If you are out maneuvered in the field of battle, then naturally you should receive punishment. No excuses… or the Commissar would like to have a word with you.
Doctrines
Doctrines can be very fun! It is true that they should have been better designed, however the variety in strategy is much appreciated. The potential...
TAKE THE MAP!
Dawn of war 3 REALLY forces you to be aggressive and capture points, which are not located conveniently around you base, like they were in Dawn of War 1. No, now they are near the center of the map, and YOU HAVE TO FIGHT FOR THEM! That is what Dawn of War is about, glorious combat. Now you cannot use a grid of nearby listening posts as a defensive line. Now you must really put your forces out there, and thus make yourself vulnerable. It is a good thing I think.
People ask me. Why do you mod a dead game. They say things such as, you can polish ++heresy redacted++ but in the end the game is still ++heresy redacted++. The real question is why are they looking up Dawn of War 3? The real question is why do any of you, need someone to tell you to buy a video game? Are you children? Well it is time to grow up, for most of the Dawn of War community. We all know why we do this. We are all disappointed in, or skeptical of Dawn of War 3. Get over it. It is an acquired taste, you either hate it or love it. At least you can try it, and get a refund if you don’t like it. In the end it is just a video game. You only live once, so who the hell cares what you choose. You’re not special so don’t expect this to be the perfect game for you. In my opinion, it is a great experience. Dawn of War 3 may not be as valuable anymore, but it does hold value. I hope you can see that, and I am very sad to see the game like this. I would watch every ++heresy redacted++ video and trailer for this game at work, in anticipation for its release. I couldn’t believe it was finally coming. I couldn’t believe that this is what I ended up with. Dawn of War 3 is like the corpse of the God Emperor, writhing with unheard of potential. However Chaos came by and fucked everything over, as Relic gave in to their shame, and as customers gave in to their rage and disappointment. In the end the question of should I buy, is a first world problem at best, and insecure jest at worst.
So please, stop wondering, and just start living.
S4ngetsu
I felt like responding because of your big effort.
So here are my thoughts as a big DoW1 fan and DoW3 (900 hours)
I agree with your first post - the power core mode should have been as a seperate game mode and the DoW1 core gameplay should have been the standard mode (annihilation etc)
When the game was released Elite where truely overpowered, but they did fix it with increased base health for each unit and as it is right now they are not overpowered anymore and can be outplayed completely - all of them (except Wazzmakka). One of the enjoyable things in DoW3 that i really like and love are the Elite with all their abilities, their impact on the game and abilities for units (could be even more abilities for units).
For me it seems like you didn't try to play the game at a competitive level like me. So i disagree here too because it's not true that units feel like paper. It's important to position your units well and anticipate your opponents tactics. Without the knowledge of all the Elite abilities, what they can do and how mutch impact they have you can easily lose your army. If you KNOW what each Elite can do your army isn't paper at all and have a lot of impact on the game. 1 single squad can decide between win or lose in the early game in a 1v1.
Again it's not true that the early game is slow paced - it's the opposite because as you said -> the base requisition rate is very high which literally means fast paced early game and that's actually a lot of fun. I mean who likes boring camp and tech games ?
It has always been like this - even in DoW1 are certain strategies that are stronger and therefore force you to react with the stronger counterplay strategy.
It has ALWAYS been in EVERY game that the developer forces you to play the game as you are supposed to if you want to succeed. You make no sense.
If you want to ++heresy redacted++ around and do stupid strategies - sure you can do that - but you will lose against any good opponent that's playing seroiusly.
FabricatorGeneral
Elites are certainly not as OP as they used to be. But they are still flawed, in the sense that there are Elites that are better than others. Especially for a 3v3 or power core situation. So I think you misread regarding the first point you made. I am not talking about Elites vs line units. I am talking about Elite viability. Hence some are OP and some are bad, for various reasons.
Maybe I should have worded the second part you bring up better. First of all I could care less if you play competivively. And you state the obvious in terms of strategy. Most of my success in DOW 3 was in 1v1 as well. So here is the rewording I guess. Elites CAN (not will) make your armies feel like paper. I will tell you why this is relevant. Not everyone plays competitively, and the average or new player of DOW 3 feels this way about Elites for a reason. Note I never march in a blob, but a lot of players do. It is not enough to simply tell people to "git gud", what you have here is the potential for very high devastation, in a short period of time. It IS A PROBLEM. Whenever I scout stun then flamer a group of infantry, do you know how that ++heresy redacted++ feels on the receiving end? The enemy almost always rage quits. It is a big deal when things can die so quickly. I mention later that people are not used to it. All these abilities do a lot of damage. It is easy to abuse the bs in game, but not easy to counter it. Especially for inexperienced players. This again is a big problem.
The power resource rate is slow. This makes the game slow. No I do not encourage tech rushing, but it should be an option. There should be a wealth of options, not a limit. The games are slow because power core defences draw games out. Because when you lose the center, you are usually fucked, because you dont have points near your base like dow 1. You lose out in resources big time. Losing mid has a larger impact than say DOW 1. Usually it is more noticeable in team games. It is a very annoying and uninspiring skirmish, with shitty units for most of the early game. You cant end the game early because of the power core bs. It IS DRAWN OUT AND SLOW. There are times when the GAME STOPS, because players need to run back to base and lick their wounds. Or players simply do not have the forces, or tech to invade the enemy base. It is not what DOW 1 player will be used to. You say it isnt a problem? Look at RTS cult spamming scouts. EVERY SINGLE GAME. Where is the fun in such bs limits on resources, where it causes people to spam throwaway units (in RTS Cult's case) to be effective? This is why the units are viewed as spam units. The combat and micro itself is not slow, but the game is slow because of how it was designed. To limit you. The progression is grindy as hell. So what do you take away from this? People abusing broken ++heresy redacted++, so that it limits options for counterplay even more. Because again no power. Your making basically what your enemy is making. Melee, range, sniper, set up team. No vehicles. Little upgrades. Little choice. So again, it is not fast gameplay at all. It is slow gameplay with fast battles, and my friend there is a big difference.
There is almost no such thing as a stupid strategy in DOW1. There is no such thing as a better strategy. There is indeed only "safe openers" and counterplay. This is obvious. However in DOW 1, there weren't so many limits. There were many great openers. You ALWAYS HAD OPTIONS. There was no such thing as a useless strategy. There is useless strategy in DOW3 however due to balance.
DOW1
You can kill sm vs sm 1v1 in under 5 minutes just by spam rushing scouts.
Vespid+Kroot could counter Vespid+Commander (safe opener).
Eldar bonesinger could stop necron production
Chaos vs chaos 1v1 cultists could work with grenade launchers.
Snipers and Hellfires could beat (tacticals and greyknights meta)
I could write a book on the wealth of choice regarding counterplay in DOW1.
These "weird non meta builds" can kick lots of ++heresy redacted++. Did you play DOW1 competitively? Because that is a much bigger game, with many more options. In DOW3 the starting units are very similar. Not as much choice as, grenade launchers, flamers, plasma guns, snipers, mini heroes, heroes, mines, turrets, necron wraith spam, rushing, tech rushing, garrisonable buildings, I have no words. There is a lot more. When the majority of the fanbase say DOW3 was dumbed down, it is because it is kind of true.
In DOW 3 the only option for SM for a long time, was either assault marines or scout spam. It is not enuff to say better strategy, as that is a sentiment that relates to balance. For a long time DOW 3s balance was ++heresy redacted++. So when I refer things don't take them at face value but look at the overall picture. Of how things add up and affect eachother.
This is not about the top tier players.
This is about everyone and everything.
FabricatorGeneral
On a side note, I would like to attribute DOW3s many high aoe damage abilities, to my favorite DOW1 unit. The Tau skyray missile gunship. You know why? Army slaying damage, and guess what, unlike the ig basilisk earth shaker rounds, it is completely free. Costs nothing and fires Instantly to! Fair? Balanced? No not really. Tau are full of cheese. DoW 3 is actually built on cheese.
S4ngetsu
No it's not a problem at all because every game has a learning curve. There are replays and tutorials that give new players the opportunity to learn from their mistakes and not feel bad about it. It WOULD be a problem if some skills were straight OP and not counterable, but all abilities that deal tons of AOE damage to units are skillshots and can all be dodged - reactionally.
Also it feels great to land a difficult combo / skillshot and therefore it's natural to be rewarded for it. Players who rage quit because they missplayed and refuse to learn - well, im glad they do rage quit and never come back. If they refuse to "git gud" then it's their own fault. I don't want noobfriendly games. Too noobfriendly games die very quickly and are no fun.
The game isn't slow and im sure i've played more DoW1 and DoW3 than you did
One of the reasons i really enjoy both of those games is that they BOTH are very fast paced games !
I'd say DoW3 doesn't have as many strategies than DoW1 but there are still a lot. Come 1v1 me and i will beat you with 10 different strategies including different elites, different doctrines, different ingame build orders. Some of them are more viable than others but nevertheless they are viable in the right circumstances.
I think i know what you are trying to say and i get the point - DoW1 has more freedom in strategy because of annihilation and ressource nodes / map design / victory points...
I've already agreed that this was a mistake by relic. Power core mode slows down the game at first and doesn't give a player the freedom like in DoW1, nevertheless by killing a shieldgen or a core turret the game speeds up again and in 1v1s it's possible to win a game in under 10 minutes. In 1v1 and 2v2 are also viable rush strategies and even in 3v3s with a premade team are strategies that can kill enemy shield gens before the 5 min mark.
Reinforcing is actually a bad thing in DoW1 because every unit can do that where- and whenever they want to. This is so noobfriendly and way to easy to do.
In DoW3 on the other hand you need to position and place your buildings carefully for reinforcements and you even can reinforce in the open fields due to certain units like falcon, truck, beatuy, banner T3 heal and so on.. So this has way more depth and strategy involved than just pressing a rightlick and keep reinforcing like in DoW1.
Reasonable but it's not like that in DoW3 exists only 1 viable strategy for each race. If i had to guess and don't go too mutch into detail then i'd say that each race in DoW3 has 5 viable strategies while DoW1 has 10 viable strategies. Still those games are designed different and making strategies work different. I.e. DoW1 doesn't have doctrines and Hero selection which could also be count as a strategy even before the game started and therefore could beat DoW1 in terms of number of strategies.
No but after a while of playing i was able to beat some of the best players (snippy, womble, dr.ork, oxo, leman, mixalich, 1kn0wfear, servant and more...)
You probably still find some replays on sanctuary or gamereplays.org, i had a lot of smurfs back then tho...
I think DoW3 is harder than DoW1 and you don't even see all the strategies that exists, there are plenty. But because it is harder, because of the power core moba effect, the bad campaign and finally the stop of support by relic killed the game. That's all - it COULD have been the best game in the series if Relic wanted ! But they got AoE4 and CoH3 tho....
True but the balance in DoW1 vanilla wasn't better lol and it's normal that the balance isn't perfect at release state.
Dark Crusade release Necrons were so broken that you literally could play 1v2 with them and do fine.
You compare DoW3 to DoW1:SS but DoW3 had mutch less support, not even an expansion, if you wan't to compare then compare it to DoW1 vanilla and compared to THAT DoW3 is a great game!
FabricatorGeneral
Haha now were talking. I agree with you on many points, including the bs of the very first dow game, regarding balance. Where you can spam whatever op unit you wanted. My favorite was always Dark Crusade naturally. So yes it is unfair to compare DOW3 to the likes of dark crusade, which is 2 expansions in. However players will still have an unrealistic standard, and it has really affected this game. They assume Relic will only IMPROVE on previous titles, and that no mistakes will be made. However looking back at the differences between DOW1 and 2 they should kind of know better. Or even DOW DC and SS. It wont neccessarily be better, or even be the same formula. The only comment on bad balance I have from DOW1 was the race matchup, and how some races had big advantages over other specific races. Necron wraiths were the bane to tau existance, unless kroot with leap were recruited. For example.
It is fair to say that players need to git gud and learn from their mistakes, however it is still bad for Relic. I mean look what happened to DOW3. Look at it objectively. Everyone walking out is not a good thing. The codex and replays in DOW3 is very useful. However I think that DOW3s learning curve may have been too high, for new players, and that it has negatively affected the game. The game should have fallen along the lines of, easy to play but impossible to master. However now that so many units have abilities, and querks to them including doctrines, the noobs have a very hard time. And funny enough yes you want noobs to stick around, or else you have a dead game. Ranger spam and flamers and scout spam to new players is like cancer. Also many doctrines had to be unlocked, so new players didn't even have access to them, and could not appreciate the strength of a doctrine until they were defeated by it. So no the choices that you bring up in regards to strategy were behind a wall, that many people did not enjoy climbing enough to stick around. That is why there was whining and relic removed skulls income and made the doctrines available. I felt slighted at this, because it meant me unlocking things meant nothing. With this thought in mind I felt annoyed when the game went on sale due to failure so quickly, when I preordered it, thinking it would succeed. The skins that were released were free, and free skins hold no value. If its not purchased or earned and everyone has it, it is in no way special. Wait I got off track.
Also building power generators gave freedom of power production. Now they are only found on some nodes, and the rate is so horrible you might as well not get them until after the requisiion.
I agree that auto reinforce is a bad thing, and is relatively unrealistic. However the balance that is DOW1 and DOW3 is that the risk/reward spectrum may be too high in DOW3. Again my opinion on fast combat but slow gameplay remains. I would compare the garrisonable shields around the map to imperial guard buildings, but better, regarding the ranged dps output from units inside. Everyone gets the shields, unless playing annihilation. Which should be in matchmaking.
When you have your doctrine you may as well use it, so although it gives you options, it is also expected that you dont waste your doctrine slot. So although you had access to many strategies you really only had access to 3 extra per match, and there was a problem for many people. You had to unlock them, they had a major impact on your army composition, because the doctrines made your units better. So you might as well use it.
Also regarding game difficulty, the game is certainly more difficult. But it is not neccessarily a good thing. There are only 3 damage types, and 2 armor types in DOW3. Hence hardcountering in this game is very real. Soft counters are almost removed. So if you make a mistake in army composition the results were more punishing. Even looking at the stats, one can see that ranged units, now REALLY SUCK at melee. And Melee units now REALLY SUCK at range. So there is also less flexibility in this way. Nobs in DOW1 had pistols that did high damage for example, so your squads did not neccessarily have to do the one thing they are supposed to. The depth was there, and at the same time, the gameplay was a little more forgiving.
It is a big topic and I did not expect to be discussing it. None less I thank you for your discussion, and only hope that Relic were to read something like this, instead of hate mail.
FabricatorGeneral
I also dunno how u do the grey box quote thing.
FabricatorGeneral
On a side note I did not like Vanilla DOW3 enough to stick around. It is a complcated hate love relationship. Hence most of the hours played for me, are in my mod and playtesting my mod. Not everyone gets to make the DOW they want, but I kind of retreated, and did so. So people have no choice but to love DOW3 or to hate it and walk away. Most walked away, and there has to be a reason for it. Or in this case many. Although my mod balance is not the greatest, it incorporates more ideas and options, which is what I wanted. Plasma scouts in DOW1 are now in DOW3 for example. It is a thing of nostalgia really.
It is a sad, sad ordeal we find ourselves in.
FabricatorGeneral
Also I already commented that I personally dont view units as spam throw away units. But the way the game was designed will make other people think differently.
Ah ++heresy redacted++ I need to stop! Bye.
FabricatorGeneral
Last but not least there is almost no way, that you played more dawn of war 1 than me. I have watched the replays of those "top" players you mentioned and was not at all impressed. The players I remember defeating in Dawn of War 1 which posed the greatest challenge, were ILetUWin, Squinteh, and a few others. I lead a few clans, and first got into the clan [YFC] I believe it is called... with [YFC] CHAPTER the leader abandoning us all lol. The guy who makes land raiders and terminators in well under 8 minutes. Everyone has smurfs in DOW1. Because the community was small, and 1v1ing under a smurf was much like challenging a champion as an unknown quantity. Or surprising friends when you crush them, not knowing its you. Good times. However DOW3 is a mess, and I do not view the game as proper competitive game. Hence why I play mods. I probably could be defeated in DOW3 due to my hours put in the game. Not in DOW1 however.
satan6666666
No 3D camera. yes. i agree to this.
What the hell? No 3d camera in dow game?
DawnOfWarRealm
SIGHS This post should be deleted, its not even objective or constructive, its like reading a child mumbeling in his writing.
FabricatorGeneral
How so? It is completely objective, massively constructive, and contains a lot of things Dawn of War 3 does right and wrong. The only comment here that is not constructive and childish is your own. Please provide actual content to your criticism. No discussion should be removed on the basis of you disagreeing.
FabricatorGeneral
Actually I take that back, this review isn't super constructive, as it does not offer much in the way of solutions, to these problems. However it is important information, to be taken into consideration.