Betrayal at Calth is grimdark through and through. It is about two Space Marine legions doing their best to wipe each other with entire star system ending up dead after that battle.
And yes, colors are bright (Especially Ultramarines) but is terminator jumping 5m in the air? Is there a shiny AoE attack half blinding you? Is there an energy shield? Are there rockets going up although launcher is forward facing? Or Lascannons working as Void rays? One big NOPE.
Warhammer is sometimes not following it's own lore, but this couple of things I named are just ridiculous, and if you need to choose which lore to go with don't look at C.S.Goto and whoever wrote the Furious Abyss. Go with Dan Abnett and Aaron Dembski Bowden's rendition of lore. I don't think you can find many people who would dislike that type of story and feel.
There are energy shields in the lore, both for Space Marines and Eldar. There are large scale energy weapons in the lore, not in the form of a continuous beam like we're seeing here but the DoW2 orbital bombardment was no more accurate than this. There are examples in the lore of terminators running and leaping. To follow the lore so strictly, then there shouldn't be basebuilding either but most people complaining about the lore conveniently overlook that aspect.
The fact that you list which authors are valid and which aren't perfectly exemplifies what I've said before on these forums, that most 40k fans cherry pick their lore as it is. Every fan has their own idea of what fits and what doesn't. Personally I think every word written about Kaldor Draigo is more damaging to the lore than anything I've seen in DoW3 so far.
I honestly don't understand why do people need such accuracy on an RTS game. This is no simulation, role play or adventure game. Those genres require hight amounts of immersion and laser cut accuracy in terms of lore if it has one. For Dawn of War, 40k lore isn't the most prioritized aspect of the game. Sure the game must have some sort of coherence between the game itself and the lore, but not as detailed as that, that would and will inflict with the gameplay and thats not good at all. I love 40k as much as you do, but dont let your pation blind you of what is really important in a game.
@Mr_Ruin said:
Betrayal at Calth is grimdark through and through. It is about two Space Marine legions doing their best to wipe each other with entire star system ending up dead after that battle.
And yes, colors are bright (Especially Ultramarines) but is terminator jumping 5m in the air? Is there a shiny AoE attack half blinding you? Is there an energy shield? Are there rockets going up although launcher is forward facing? Or Lascannons working as Void rays? One big NOPE.
Warhammer is sometimes not following it's own lore, but this couple of things I named are just ridiculous, and if you need to choose which lore to go with don't look at C.S.Goto and whoever wrote the Furious Abyss. Go with Dan Abnett and Aaron Dembski Bowden's rendition of lore. I don't think you can find many people who would dislike that type of story and feel.
Well sure I agree with parts. Jumping Terminators feels greatly at odds & I too would prefer something different. Lascannons going from high powered pulse lasers to energy laser beams seems odd especially with void rays So are void rays now the exact same as lascannons? They really shouldn't be. But energy shields are part of the 40k universe so no idea here about this point & horizontal launching vertical flying rockets are a practical method & exist even at our level of technology now. These don't limit the rockets to only the horizontal direction of launch.
And talking about lore, each lore or period of 40k development has their own fans. Also you'll have fans of different writers so ones no more right then the other.
How is a terminator not doing those high jumps a damage to the gameplay? They just need to change the animation. It's not a gameplay issue as some of you are trying to point, it is some dev decision who decided that angelos doing that is "cool" and that they should implement that thing.
A gameplay issue was the vehicles in dow1 not being "big enough" to hold all the squads they transported because of the pathing issues, that is a problem everyone can overlook because is better to have vehicles that can move instead of a big brick that doesn't work. Dow3 doesn't have this kind of issues, all the things we are complaining come from arbitrary decisions from the devs to make the game look more "newbie friendly".
@Sindri said:
How is a terminator not doing those high jumps a damage to the gameplay? They just need to change the animation. It's not a gameplay issue as some of you are trying to point, it is some dev decision who decided that angelos doing that is "cool" and that they should implement that thing.
A gameplay issue was the vehicles in dow1 not being "big enough" to hold all the squads they transported because of the pathing issues, that is a problem everyone can overlook because is better to have vehicles that can move instead of a big brick that doesn't work. Dow3 doesn't have this kind of issues, all the things we are complaining come from arbitrary decisions from the devs to make the game look more "newbie friendly".
I was actually refering to the art style in this case
Maybe it is cherry picking, but most of it is common sense. There is a book accompanying release of Grey Knight Codex and there is no mention of Kaldor Draigo and other Mary Sues just cause most of that Codex's lore is batshit crazy.
But even if you are not following lore from the books and Codexes at all, all those weapons and armors showed up in previous 2 DoWs. There are Lascannons in DoW2 which are just as lore says they should be, so just copy them. Rockets go in an arc, and not as a copy of Javelin system. Terminators don't do flips around. Ok there is a difference in SM speed, but that was done to balance SM in DoW2 cause if they were faster they would be a lot harder to defeat (not a particularly good idea from DoW2, there are other ways to balance).
I wanted to add part about explaining my stance on energy shields on last post. It looks good for Eldar, but I believe SM and Orks should have something similar in practice but which looks a bit differently cause this energy shield screams Eldar to me. Yes, SM use energy shields and even some more tech savvy Orks but on such a big scale those would be Void Shields and Kustom Force Fields respectively and those are found on Titans and Gargants, not lying around some random battlefields. But ok, if that is they want to go, ok. Just make it look more closer in look to it's current user.
tau are the complete opposite of grimdark, they're exactly the polished bright look that you're complaining about. that mech is a perfect example of that.
tau are the complete opposite of grimdark, they're exactly the polished bright look that you're complaining about. that mech is a perfect example of that.
Must say I see them as not polished, they might look bright at first look, but i would say that is mainly because 1: they still haven't faced anything serius, aka hive fleet, daemons etc and 2: their control is just more subtle, imperium uses brute force, they are more closer to mind control.
They have the bright out look that's anythings possible. They understand everything about their technology. Actively looking at ways to improve it. The rest of 40k is more dark in that of dying knowledge, lost knowledge, heretical knowledge. Only approved knowledge is allowed. It's one of the odd points of Tau. All other factions easily fall into into the aspect of a Dark Age were Tau feel like they don't belong. Almost like their idiology will being an end to the 40k Dark Age. Knowledge is something they seek.
40k colourwise is not a dull universe. Also many artwork pieces are only in greyscale/black & white.
Also talking about lore even going throught Games Workshop lore it's can contradict it's self. And just like artstyle there are different fans for different periods of lore. So which fans, which period? There is no one right selection as 40k is always in flux & not even Games Workshop lets past lore get in the way if they want to change it.
The problem with the colours is oversaturation, no one denies 40k uses a wide array of colours, but the game currently looks like it has 25 per cent too much colour saturation, it's akin to what happened with the later Command and Conquer games, where they turned saturation too high and everything started to glow and shine like it was made of glass, a simple solution for this is to default the game engine to a lower level of saturation.
Dow 3 semms impossible to be fixed, they should either dropped it completely and rather make more DOW 2 expansions, or start already working on a new grim dark dow4 and waste nomore time for dow3 content.
As the cartoony feel and animations are broken beyond repair, little can be done to make it look like a 40k game, let me try to make a list though:
-change the colour palette to darker tones.
-minimise the bouncing animations, of moving units, mostly seen in disney cartoons
-drop the cover bubble and give the the unit in cover a certain aura, shield icon, or ring icon.
-reduce the termie animation and speed at least 40%
-inflate the tactical sm leg armor at least 60%
-remove all flicking animations from the chapter master and give him a dread voice, or mute him even better!
Fix his size, or put him into centurion armor.
-any artwork changes that can make this game anyless cute are welcomed.
-make a dlc if you like and put all that cartoony lunes flower power artwork there, you may add bambi and snow white for all we care there.
-Try not to make it a Banshee game yet again...
please for the love of the emperor tone down the effects so they don't totally blind me whenever there is a firefight id like to actually be able to tell wtf is happening on the screen not a big ball of flashy unnecessary lights
@GABBO90 said:
At this point im sure relic wont change enough things to make dow 3 the proper dow we all know and love, but i think there are some small things that, if modified, would make the game good enough for us to give a try.
In my opinion the worst thing in the gameplay they showed is the cover system, if they change that abomination into something more subtle and well implemented i would not be so dissapointed.
I never thought i would say this, but i miss jonny ebert as the lead designer of relic, that bald pr*ck
It's all Pre-Alpha but god there is so much to change...
I Cover
I hope that Sega uses the cover system from DOW II (and COH II) As they were more realistic and complex, offering you different cover based on what you were hiding behind and then negating that by flanking the hunkered troops.
Their current system to "simplify" cover with circular shaped cover only seems to dumb down our experience and robs us of that tactical and realistic aspect of Relic games past. It might make the map more readable but it’s not worth sacrificing a well liked game mechanic.
II Graphics
At first thought, lowered graphics makes sense; especially if you're trying to preserve decent frame rates while throwing larger armies in the mix (Nobody wants to watch a slide-show of their wars after all!).
That being said, PC users will expect to tweak their graphics as they see fit and should be able to have high or extreme settings as an option as virtually every game on this platform does. This lowered graphics approach seems to be an excuse to cut costs out of designing more vibrant and textured graphics.
III Army Size
I did find the army sizes in DOW II to be more pleasing as they focused more on tactics and were less prone to click & drag + A or “ army-blobing”. Something you might find in games like Starcraft II or DOW I. That being said, DOW I was still amazing. I Just hope that tactical gameplay will be feasible at 3v3 or even 2v2 and won't make for absurd and unreadable battlefields.
IV Campaign Mechanics & Story
Hopefully the campaign will see a return of DOW II’s random loot system. As it does in the Diablo series, it makes the campaign so much more replayable and exciting. Making it Co-Op would be icing on the cake. If they could also somehow work item unlocks into multi player this would be a ground-breaking addition to an already amazing RTS series. That is, to allow you to carry over at least some earned war gear, skins, banners or bitz into multiplayer.
No Shoehorning! I hope they take great care into making each races campaigns feel like true stand alones. That they take the time to build up a compelling story for each race and makes you feel like you're moving towards something in the story. Something different than what happened in DOW II: Retribution, which was the weakest expansion. I think it failed in campaign because it tried to shoehorn every race into the same or very similar maps and experiences….it made for an uncompelling and forgettable storyline for all races.
V Focus Density & Playability
Good RTS players know that it takes a lot of focus and attention to perform well. What took up most of my attention in DOW II was consistently buying and using unique abilities and wargear at the right time during battles. Smaller armies help compensate this but what will happen if they grow larger? In DOW III, SEGA will likely have to drop a fair amount of these abilities or item procs in order to reduce what I call focus density and make the game playable.
I guess the real question is, if they make army sizes bigger how many kick-a$$ special abilities & wargear procs are we going to lose?
VI DLC’s & Additional Content
Currently SEGA has announced only 3 races. I hope they’ll be more than that out of the gate as after that, we should expect them to start what could be a long list of DLC’s given the 40K Universes near infinite variation of races and their chapters.
I think a good option would be to have micro transactions for special characters, skins, banners, wargear or even some races that we could pay for with money or with in game credits. I find the option works well in games like MTG Duels & LOL.
Gamers have come to expect this more and more from publishers but my point is, please don’t nickle and dime us to gain access to our favorite sci fi universe.
Also, if there is a 4th playable race out of the gate, let it be the best race in the 40K universe….Chaos Space Marines!
VI Regular/Combat Movement & Mechanics
So far, Movement of all units from Relic Games past (specifically in DOW II and Space Marine) has been spot on for how models should move, specifically how units move in power armor. It gives you the impression that despite having electrically motivated fibre bundles within the armour that replicates the wearer's movement you are still keenly aware of the armor’s incredible weight. You still see it in their gait, how each step lands and how the rest of the body responds. The physics of it almost makes it seem like it could be real and that’s how It would look should it ever be made. Please retain this movement mechanic in DOW III.
Squads move in a odd, mechanical manner that would at first look like how highly trained soldiers would move but it’s not at all organic or even realistic. Units should move as they did in COH II & DOW II, each model moving in a bit of a different way than the others, taking some cover while moving past a wall and so on. For an expansion on this issue, Arch Warhammer on youtube highlights it quite well in his DOW 3, E3 Gameplay, Information and impressions video.
Certain models move far too fast, specifically terminators. Tactical dreadnought armor is the most potent form of protection in the imperium and for those who are not familiar with their lore, imagine taping a tank to your chest and then trying to go for a run! I don’t think so!
The same issue comes with the ridiculous, Anime-like acrobatics of Gabriel Angelos (who is wearing terminator armor). The special attack’s he makes in the E3 gameplay video are completely out of reality (or fantasy in this matter!) and should be removed. Terminator armor barely allows the user to run (and at a slower pace than space marines) for very short lengths. With these limitations it is impossible to fathom a user in this armor being able to leap into the air or even jump at all for that matter.
No sync kills! (As of yet) sync kills are a hallmark of the DOW series and must be included in DOW III. They add a flavor to war that truly helps you take in and enjoy the whole experience. It makes fights seem more personal and really makes me go after certain units just to slay them in spectacular fashion. In DOW II I think of the dreadnaught-wraithlord sync kill when the wraithlord swings his sword for a telling blow and the dreadnought grabs it with his left hand, stopping the sword dead in place. He then reaches in with his right hand and crushes the wraithlords chest...Incredible!
VII Odd’s & Ends
Las Cannon’s have also been turned into some kind of focused beam that is channeled instead of harvested and released in every other 40k game known to mankind. This is an abomination. All weapons and armor should function as per their description in their respective codeces, wargear books and data slates...anything less pisses on the 40K universe and it’s fans and I am currently without an umbrella. Please fix these issues and I believe you can make the greatest DOW game ever known. Oh! And please use Gabriel’s voice actor from DOW II. He had a much more convincing voice that felt real. This one sounds like random drunk trying to talk like a pirate.
At 5:25 of the E3 Demo Video, you can over the vox casters the space marines saying “Plasma Team Ready”. If i’m not mistaken, you cannot outfit an entire squad of space marines with plasma weapons and doing so in the game seems like it could be a bit OP. It also seems like this could omitting a more exciting ranged specialist: The Sternguard.
40k colourwise is not a dull universe. Also many artwork pieces are only in greyscale/black & white.
Also talking about lore even going throught Games Workshop lore it's can contradict it's self. And just like artstyle there are different fans for different periods of lore. So which fans, which period? There is no one right selection as 40k is always in flux & not even Games Workshop lets past lore get in the way if they want to change it.
The problem with the colours is oversaturation, no one denies 40k uses a wide array of colours, but the game currently looks like it has 25 per cent too much colour saturation, it's akin to what happened with the later Command and Conquer games, where they turned saturation too high and everything started to glow and shine like it was made of glass, a simple solution for this is to default the game engine to a lower level of saturation.
I do agree saturation leans towards the lighter end of the spectrum but I also think some of this can be attributed to the ice environment which typically have an effect like this. We need to see how this artstyle looks & feels in a less saturated environment. Something other the ice & snow.
This weight people talk about in regards to animation has much to do with interaction with the environment & intermodel interaction. I would think these are more finishes & polish effects something to do after locking down gameplay.
Like without footprints models look like the float across terrain. Swinging sword in the air provides no weight of combat if all that happens is the foe is also just swinging theirs & not reacting to your model's swinging sword.
Add a heavy footprint that produces a small cloud can go a long way of providing more weight to the SM running animation. What I'm hoping is for unique melee combat animation for units when their fighting different unit types. I also hope in actually looking like there really fighting & reacting & not just swinging swords at each other.
Another aspect is the death ragdolling. At the moment it looks more like a block of ice that leaves a blood trail then a body. The bodies look like they're sliding across the ground not impacting into it. I like what I see but hope for more polish to come.
dow1 + dow2 sync kills (even fast ones would be enough)
Lore friendly for environnements, units and animations. (more w40k and less starcfrat2, slower terminators, no jumping Gabriel Angelos, no "beam" laser canons or swinging thunder hammers ...)
Sorry couldn't resist but if we can't swing Thunder Hammers what do we do with them? Cuddle them.
He meant the rediculous terminator olympic hammer swing that he swings in a circle 3 times before he hits a person with it...It looks silly. Warhammer is not meant to be goofy leave that to war craft and starcraft.
@GABBO90 said:
At this point im sure relic wont change enough things to make dow 3 the proper dow we all know and love, but i think there are some small things that, if modified, would make the game good enough for us to give a try.
In my opinion the worst thing in the gameplay they showed is the cover system, if they change that abomination into something more subtle and well implemented i would not be so dissapointed.
I never thought i would say this, but i miss jonny ebert as the lead designer of relic, that bald pr*ck
It's all Pre-Alpha but god there is so much to change...
I Cover
I hope that Sega uses the cover system from DOW II (and COH II) As they were more realistic and complex, offering you different cover based on what you were hiding behind and then negating that by flanking the hunkered troops.
Their current system to "simplify" cover with circular shaped cover only seems to dumb down our experience and robs us of that tactical and realistic aspect of Relic games past. It might make the map more readable but it’s not worth sacrificing a well liked game mechanic.
II Graphics
At first thought, lowered graphics makes sense; especially if you're trying to preserve decent frame rates while throwing larger armies in the mix (Nobody wants to watch a slide-show of their wars after all!).
That being said, PC users will expect to tweak their graphics as they see fit and should be able to have high or extreme settings as an option as virtually every game on this platform does. This lowered graphics approach seems to be an excuse to cut costs out of designing more vibrant and textured graphics.
III Army Size
I did find the army sizes in DOW II to be more pleasing as they focused more on tactics and were less prone to click & drag + A or “ army-blobing”. Something you might find in games like Starcraft II or DOW I. That being said, DOW I was still amazing. I Just hope that tactical gameplay will be feasible at 3v3 or even 2v2 and won't make for absurd and unreadable battlefields.
IV Campaign Mechanics & Story
Hopefully the campaign will see a return of DOW II’s random loot system. As it does in the Diablo series, it makes the campaign so much more replayable and exciting. Making it Co-Op would be icing on the cake. If they could also somehow work item unlocks into multi player this would be a ground-breaking addition to an already amazing RTS series. That is, to allow you to carry over at least some earned war gear, skins, banners or bitz into multiplayer.
No Shoehorning! I hope they take great care into making each races campaigns feel like true stand alones. That they take the time to build up a compelling story for each race and makes you feel like you're moving towards something in the story. Something different than what happened in DOW II: Retribution, which was the weakest expansion. I think it failed in campaign because it tried to shoehorn every race into the same or very similar maps and experiences….it made for an uncompelling and forgettable storyline for all races.
V Focus Density & Playability
Good RTS players know that it takes a lot of focus and attention to perform well. What took up most of my attention in DOW II was consistently buying and using unique abilities and wargear at the right time during battles. Smaller armies help compensate this but what will happen if they grow larger? In DOW III, SEGA will likely have to drop a fair amount of these abilities or item procs in order to reduce what I call focus density and make the game playable.
I guess the real question is, if they make army sizes bigger how many kick-a$$ special abilities & wargear procs are we going to lose?
VI DLC’s & Additional Content
Currently SEGA has announced only 3 races. I hope they’ll be more than that out of the gate as after that, we should expect them to start what could be a long list of DLC’s given the 40K Universes near infinite variation of races and their chapters.
I think a good option would be to have micro transactions for special characters, skins, banners, wargear or even some races that we could pay for with money or with in game credits. I find the option works well in games like MTG Duels & LOL.
Gamers have come to expect this more and more from publishers but my point is, please don’t nickle and dime us to gain access to our favorite sci fi universe.
Also, if there is a 4th playable race out of the gate, let it be the best race in the 40K universe….Chaos Space Marines!
VI Regular/Combat Movement & Mechanics
So far, Movement of all units from Relic Games past (specifically in DOW II and Space Marine) has been spot on for how models should move, specifically how units move in power armor. It gives you the impression that despite having electrically motivated fibre bundles within the armour that replicates the wearer's movement you are still keenly aware of the armor’s incredible weight. You still see it in their gait, how each step lands and how the rest of the body responds. The physics of it almost makes it seem like it could be real and that’s how It would look should it ever be made. Please retain this movement mechanic in DOW III.
Squads move in a odd, mechanical manner that would at first look like how highly trained soldiers would move but it’s not at all organic or even realistic. Units should move as they did in COH II & DOW II, each model moving in a bit of a different way than the others, taking some cover while moving past a wall and so on. For an expansion on this issue, Arch Warhammer on youtube highlights it quite well in his DOW 3, E3 Gameplay, Information and impressions video.
Certain models move far too fast, specifically terminators. Tactical dreadnought armor is the most potent form of protection in the imperium and for those who are not familiar with their lore, imagine taping a tank to your chest and then trying to go for a run! I don’t think so!
The same issue comes with the ridiculous, Anime-like acrobatics of Gabriel Angelos (who is wearing terminator armor). The special attack’s he makes in the E3 gameplay video are completely out of reality (or fantasy in this matter!) and should be removed. Terminator armor barely allows the user to run (and at a slower pace than space marines) for very short lengths. With these limitations it is impossible to fathom a user in this armor being able to leap into the air or even jump at all for that matter.
No sync kills! (As of yet) sync kills are a hallmark of the DOW series and must be included in DOW III. They add a flavor to war that truly helps you take in and enjoy the whole experience. It makes fights seem more personal and really makes me go after certain units just to slay them in spectacular fashion. In DOW II I think of the dreadnaught-wraithlord sync kill when the wraithlord swings his sword for a telling blow and the dreadnought grabs it with his left hand, stopping the sword dead in place. He then reaches in with his right hand and crushes the wraithlords chest...Incredible!
VII Odd’s & Ends
Las Cannon’s have also been turned into some kind of focused beam that is channeled instead of harvested and released in every other 40k game known to mankind. This is an abomination. All weapons and armor should function as per their description in their respective codeces, wargear books and data slates...anything less pisses on the 40K universe and it’s fans and I am currently without an umbrella. Please fix these issues and I believe you can make the greatest DOW game ever known. Oh! And please use Gabriel’s voice actor from DOW II. He had a much more convincing voice that felt real. This one sounds like random drunk trying to talk like a pirate.
At 5:25 of the E3 Demo Video, you can over the vox casters the space marines saying “Plasma Team Ready”. If i’m not mistaken, you cannot outfit an entire squad of space marines with plasma weapons and doing so in the game seems like it could be a bit OP. It also seems like this could omitting a more exciting ranged specialist: The Sternguard.
@GABBO90 said:
At this point im sure relic wont change enough things to make dow 3 the proper dow we all know and love, but i think there are some small things that, if modified, would make the game good enough for us to give a try.
In my opinion the worst thing in the gameplay they showed is the cover system, if they change that abomination into something more subtle and well implemented i would not be so dissapointed.
I never thought i would say this, but i miss jonny ebert as the lead designer of relic, that bald pr*ck
It's all Pre-Alpha but god there is so much to change...
I Cover
I hope that Sega uses the cover system from DOW II (and COH II) As they were more realistic and complex, offering you different cover based on what you were hiding behind and then negating that by flanking the hunkered troops.
Their current system to "simplify" cover with circular shaped cover only seems to dumb down our experience and robs us of that tactical and realistic aspect of Relic games past. It might make the map more readable but it’s not worth sacrificing a well liked game mechanic.
II Graphics
At first thought, lowered graphics makes sense; especially if you're trying to preserve decent frame rates while throwing larger armies in the mix (Nobody wants to watch a slide-show of their wars after all!).
That being said, PC users will expect to tweak their graphics as they see fit and should be able to have high or extreme settings as an option as virtually every game on this platform does. This lowered graphics approach seems to be an excuse to cut costs out of designing more vibrant and textured graphics.
III Army Size
I did find the army sizes in DOW II to be more pleasing as they focused more on tactics and were less prone to click & drag + A or “ army-blobing”. Something you might find in games like Starcraft II or DOW I. That being said, DOW I was still amazing. I Just hope that tactical gameplay will be feasible at 3v3 or even 2v2 and won't make for absurd and unreadable battlefields.
IV Campaign Mechanics & Story
Hopefully the campaign will see a return of DOW II’s random loot system. As it does in the Diablo series, it makes the campaign so much more replayable and exciting. Making it Co-Op would be icing on the cake. If they could also somehow work item unlocks into multi player this would be a ground-breaking addition to an already amazing RTS series. That is, to allow you to carry over at least some earned war gear, skins, banners or bitz into multiplayer.
No Shoehorning! I hope they take great care into making each races campaigns feel like true stand alones. That they take the time to build up a compelling story for each race and makes you feel like you're moving towards something in the story. Something different than what happened in DOW II: Retribution, which was the weakest expansion. I think it failed in campaign because it tried to shoehorn every race into the same or very similar maps and experiences….it made for an uncompelling and forgettable storyline for all races.
V Focus Density & Playability
Good RTS players know that it takes a lot of focus and attention to perform well. What took up most of my attention in DOW II was consistently buying and using unique abilities and wargear at the right time during battles. Smaller armies help compensate this but what will happen if they grow larger? In DOW III, SEGA will likely have to drop a fair amount of these abilities or item procs in order to reduce what I call focus density and make the game playable.
I guess the real question is, if they make army sizes bigger how many kick-a$$ special abilities & wargear procs are we going to lose?
VI DLC’s & Additional Content
Currently SEGA has announced only 3 races. I hope they’ll be more than that out of the gate as after that, we should expect them to start what could be a long list of DLC’s given the 40K Universes near infinite variation of races and their chapters.
I think a good option would be to have micro transactions for special characters, skins, banners, wargear or even some races that we could pay for with money or with in game credits. I find the option works well in games like MTG Duels & LOL.
Gamers have come to expect this more and more from publishers but my point is, please don’t nickle and dime us to gain access to our favorite sci fi universe.
Also, if there is a 4th playable race out of the gate, let it be the best race in the 40K universe….Chaos Space Marines!
VI Regular/Combat Movement & Mechanics
So far, Movement of all units from Relic Games past (specifically in DOW II and Space Marine) has been spot on for how models should move, specifically how units move in power armor. It gives you the impression that despite having electrically motivated fibre bundles within the armour that replicates the wearer's movement you are still keenly aware of the armor’s incredible weight. You still see it in their gait, how each step lands and how the rest of the body responds. The physics of it almost makes it seem like it could be real and that’s how It would look should it ever be made. Please retain this movement mechanic in DOW III.
Squads move in a odd, mechanical manner that would at first look like how highly trained soldiers would move but it’s not at all organic or even realistic. Units should move as they did in COH II & DOW II, each model moving in a bit of a different way than the others, taking some cover while moving past a wall and so on. For an expansion on this issue, Arch Warhammer on youtube highlights it quite well in his DOW 3, E3 Gameplay, Information and impressions video.
Certain models move far too fast, specifically terminators. Tactical dreadnought armor is the most potent form of protection in the imperium and for those who are not familiar with their lore, imagine taping a tank to your chest and then trying to go for a run! I don’t think so!
The same issue comes with the ridiculous, Anime-like acrobatics of Gabriel Angelos (who is wearing terminator armor). The special attack’s he makes in the E3 gameplay video are completely out of reality (or fantasy in this matter!) and should be removed. Terminator armor barely allows the user to run (and at a slower pace than space marines) for very short lengths. With these limitations it is impossible to fathom a user in this armor being able to leap into the air or even jump at all for that matter.
No sync kills! (As of yet) sync kills are a hallmark of the DOW series and must be included in DOW III. They add a flavor to war that truly helps you take in and enjoy the whole experience. It makes fights seem more personal and really makes me go after certain units just to slay them in spectacular fashion. In DOW II I think of the dreadnaught-wraithlord sync kill when the wraithlord swings his sword for a telling blow and the dreadnought grabs it with his left hand, stopping the sword dead in place. He then reaches in with his right hand and crushes the wraithlords chest...Incredible!
VII Odd’s & Ends
Las Cannon’s have also been turned into some kind of focused beam that is channeled instead of harvested and released in every other 40k game known to mankind. This is an abomination. All weapons and armor should function as per their description in their respective codeces, wargear books and data slates...anything less pisses on the 40K universe and it’s fans and I am currently without an umbrella. Please fix these issues and I believe you can make the greatest DOW game ever known. Oh! And please use Gabriel’s voice actor from DOW II. He had a much more convincing voice that felt real. This one sounds like random drunk trying to talk like a pirate.
At 5:25 of the E3 Demo Video, you can over the vox casters the space marines saying “Plasma Team Ready”. If i’m not mistaken, you cannot outfit an entire squad of space marines with plasma weapons and doing so in the game seems like it could be a bit OP. It also seems like this could omitting a more exciting ranged specialist: The Sternguard.
So true. I'm not seeing much DoW3 fanboying here... Welp good knowing this thread and post, its gonna be locked by a moderator cause of it.
For me are the biggest issues, as mentioned in previous posts, the flashy and anime like game engine. For example, in the demo, where Gabriel uses his first skills, it does not feel like DoW, more like League of Legends, too much unnecessary moves with a lot of flashy colours. The previous DoW games had the grim and dark atmosphere, which are the characteristics for a war of survival. To be honest, DoW 2 graphics wise surpasses the current DoW 3 with ease.
The sync killing seems to have dissappeared altogether.
The size difference between units is too much off, Gabriel for example is a space marine in a terminator armor but considering his size, he might as well be a dreadnaught.These 3 issues are the main ones for me. The hype for DoW 3 has for me made a serious downfall with the demo walkthrough release.
Of course i agree with WARP_ENTITY's post 100%, he wrote a detailed cover, why and what is wrong with DoW 3 so far, the biggest issues. I sincerely hope, that the posts in this forum are going to be taken into consideration.
I dont think relic will pay too much attention unless there is a petition regarding these issues. Looks like the game is heavily invested into the current design/aesthetic. Sadly i dont think much will change as I dont think they can justify so much backpedaling from a financial standpoint. I think we already saw the best part of DOW3, which is the cinematic trailer. Maybe the final game will have more of those.
I would love to research again, example: Unit champion upgrades power weapon -> Power fist, optionally having it set up like in dow2 for gear is alright i guess.
I have not see any info on research, if anyone has feel free to share.
my concern is always forcus on muti-player aspect of the game, but with the content they show so far, i fear that developer havnt even work on muti-player or not pay enough attension on that part. they might have their Business model up, but defintly not muti-player. to bring a CoH2 commander system into a Dow1 like game is not a practical way of building a competitive multi-player game, there is no balance there, this is not about number changes, this is simply "bad", not if developer want us to use more than half of the unit in the faction rooster.
for example: 2 varent of preaditor tank, if las-cannon pread is half decent at killing infantry as the auto-cannon pread there will be no one to take auto-cannon pread, it is simply because in the frist half of the game your will be building up your anti-infantry firepower, there is no need to take a dedicate infantry killer in t3. ofc someone will say you can move auto-cannon pread to t2, but think about this the total number of the unit and elite unit, in ideal case you only need unit to fit specific role, and when they are more unit than roles, the lessing effiecient unit which fitting that role will become obsolet
i believe many will change when they start working on muti-player, my only hope is when that happens it will looks more like CoH2
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Comments
Mr_Ruin
Betrayal at Calth is grimdark through and through. It is about two Space Marine legions doing their best to wipe each other with entire star system ending up dead after that battle.
And yes, colors are bright (Especially Ultramarines) but is terminator jumping 5m in the air? Is there a shiny AoE attack half blinding you? Is there an energy shield? Are there rockets going up although launcher is forward facing? Or Lascannons working as Void rays? One big NOPE.
Warhammer is sometimes not following it's own lore, but this couple of things I named are just ridiculous, and if you need to choose which lore to go with don't look at C.S.Goto and whoever wrote the Furious Abyss. Go with Dan Abnett and Aaron Dembski Bowden's rendition of lore. I don't think you can find many people who would dislike that type of story and feel.
Orblivion
There are energy shields in the lore, both for Space Marines and Eldar. There are large scale energy weapons in the lore, not in the form of a continuous beam like we're seeing here but the DoW2 orbital bombardment was no more accurate than this. There are examples in the lore of terminators running and leaping. To follow the lore so strictly, then there shouldn't be basebuilding either but most people complaining about the lore conveniently overlook that aspect.
The fact that you list which authors are valid and which aren't perfectly exemplifies what I've said before on these forums, that most 40k fans cherry pick their lore as it is. Every fan has their own idea of what fits and what doesn't. Personally I think every word written about Kaldor Draigo is more damaging to the lore than anything I've seen in DoW3 so far.
XZaguer
I honestly don't understand why do people need such accuracy on an RTS game. This is no simulation, role play or adventure game. Those genres require hight amounts of immersion and laser cut accuracy in terms of lore if it has one. For Dawn of War, 40k lore isn't the most prioritized aspect of the game. Sure the game must have some sort of coherence between the game itself and the lore, but not as detailed as that, that would and will inflict with the gameplay and thats not good at all. I love 40k as much as you do, but dont let your pation blind you of what is really important in a game.
Bezagron
Well sure I agree with parts. Jumping Terminators feels greatly at odds & I too would prefer something different. Lascannons going from high powered pulse lasers to energy laser beams seems odd especially with void rays So are void rays now the exact same as lascannons? They really shouldn't be. But energy shields are part of the 40k universe so no idea here about this point & horizontal launching vertical flying rockets are a practical method & exist even at our level of technology now. These don't limit the rockets to only the horizontal direction of launch.
And talking about lore, each lore or period of 40k development has their own fans. Also you'll have fans of different writers so ones no more right then the other.
Sindri
How is a terminator not doing those high jumps a damage to the gameplay? They just need to change the animation. It's not a gameplay issue as some of you are trying to point, it is some dev decision who decided that angelos doing that is "cool" and that they should implement that thing.
A gameplay issue was the vehicles in dow1 not being "big enough" to hold all the squads they transported because of the pathing issues, that is a problem everyone can overlook because is better to have vehicles that can move instead of a big brick that doesn't work. Dow3 doesn't have this kind of issues, all the things we are complaining come from arbitrary decisions from the devs to make the game look more "newbie friendly".
XZaguer
I was actually refering to the art style in this case
Mr_Ruin
Maybe it is cherry picking, but most of it is common sense. There is a book accompanying release of Grey Knight Codex and there is no mention of Kaldor Draigo and other Mary Sues just cause most of that Codex's lore is batshit crazy.
But even if you are not following lore from the books and Codexes at all, all those weapons and armors showed up in previous 2 DoWs. There are Lascannons in DoW2 which are just as lore says they should be, so just copy them. Rockets go in an arc, and not as a copy of Javelin system. Terminators don't do flips around. Ok there is a difference in SM speed, but that was done to balance SM in DoW2 cause if they were faster they would be a lot harder to defeat (not a particularly good idea from DoW2, there are other ways to balance).
I wanted to add part about explaining my stance on energy shields on last post. It looks good for Eldar, but I believe SM and Orks should have something similar in practice but which looks a bit differently cause this energy shield screams Eldar to me. Yes, SM use energy shields and even some more tech savvy Orks but on such a big scale those would be Void Shields and Kustom Force Fields respectively and those are found on Titans and Gargants, not lying around some random battlefields. But ok, if that is they want to go, ok. Just make it look more closer in look to it's current user.
Ellie
what?
tau are the complete opposite of grimdark, they're exactly the polished bright look that you're complaining about. that mech is a perfect example of that.
Xerith
Must say I see them as not polished, they might look bright at first look, but i would say that is mainly because 1: they still haven't faced anything serius, aka hive fleet, daemons etc and 2: their control is just more subtle, imperium uses brute force, they are more closer to mind control.
Orblivion
They have faced Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and some Chaos mutants/marines already.
Bezagron
They have the bright out look that's anythings possible. They understand everything about their technology. Actively looking at ways to improve it. The rest of 40k is more dark in that of dying knowledge, lost knowledge, heretical knowledge. Only approved knowledge is allowed. It's one of the odd points of Tau. All other factions easily fall into into the aspect of a Dark Age were Tau feel like they don't belong. Almost like their idiology will being an end to the 40k Dark Age. Knowledge is something they seek.
Nanrsil
Writing better lines for the characters, I know it's all pre-alpha footage, but Gabriel Angelos lines at the E3 demo were killing me man.
HORDESLICER
A lot of weapons, perks and units customisations would be cool.
McNash
The problem with the colours is oversaturation, no one denies 40k uses a wide array of colours, but the game currently looks like it has 25 per cent too much colour saturation, it's akin to what happened with the later Command and Conquer games, where they turned saturation too high and everything started to glow and shine like it was made of glass, a simple solution for this is to default the game engine to a lower level of saturation.
Iatros
Dow 3 semms impossible to be fixed, they should either dropped it completely and rather make more DOW 2 expansions, or start already working on a new grim dark dow4 and waste nomore time for dow3 content.
As the cartoony feel and animations are broken beyond repair, little can be done to make it look like a 40k game, let me try to make a list though:
-change the colour palette to darker tones.
-minimise the bouncing animations, of moving units, mostly seen in disney cartoons
-drop the cover bubble and give the the unit in cover a certain aura, shield icon, or ring icon.
-reduce the termie animation and speed at least 40%
-inflate the tactical sm leg armor at least 60%
-remove all flicking animations from the chapter master and give him a dread voice, or mute him even better!
Fix his size, or put him into centurion armor.
-any artwork changes that can make this game anyless cute are welcomed.
-make a dlc if you like and put all that cartoony lunes flower power artwork there, you may add bambi and snow white for all we care there.
-Try not to make it a Banshee game yet again...
Tiggy
please for the love of the emperor tone down the effects so they don't totally blind me whenever there is a firefight id like to actually be able to tell wtf is happening on the screen not a big ball of flashy unnecessary lights
Warp_Entity
It's all Pre-Alpha but god there is so much to change...
I Cover
I hope that Sega uses the cover system from DOW II (and COH II) As they were more realistic and complex, offering you different cover based on what you were hiding behind and then negating that by flanking the hunkered troops.
Their current system to "simplify" cover with circular shaped cover only seems to dumb down our experience and robs us of that tactical and realistic aspect of Relic games past. It might make the map more readable but it’s not worth sacrificing a well liked game mechanic.
II Graphics
At first thought, lowered graphics makes sense; especially if you're trying to preserve decent frame rates while throwing larger armies in the mix (Nobody wants to watch a slide-show of their wars after all!).
That being said, PC users will expect to tweak their graphics as they see fit and should be able to have high or extreme settings as an option as virtually every game on this platform does. This lowered graphics approach seems to be an excuse to cut costs out of designing more vibrant and textured graphics.
III Army Size
I did find the army sizes in DOW II to be more pleasing as they focused more on tactics and were less prone to click & drag + A or “ army-blobing”. Something you might find in games like Starcraft II or DOW I. That being said, DOW I was still amazing. I Just hope that tactical gameplay will be feasible at 3v3 or even 2v2 and won't make for absurd and unreadable battlefields.
IV Campaign Mechanics & Story
Hopefully the campaign will see a return of DOW II’s random loot system. As it does in the Diablo series, it makes the campaign so much more replayable and exciting. Making it Co-Op would be icing on the cake. If they could also somehow work item unlocks into multi player this would be a ground-breaking addition to an already amazing RTS series. That is, to allow you to carry over at least some earned war gear, skins, banners or bitz into multiplayer.
No Shoehorning! I hope they take great care into making each races campaigns feel like true stand alones. That they take the time to build up a compelling story for each race and makes you feel like you're moving towards something in the story. Something different than what happened in DOW II: Retribution, which was the weakest expansion. I think it failed in campaign because it tried to shoehorn every race into the same or very similar maps and experiences….it made for an uncompelling and forgettable storyline for all races.
V Focus Density & Playability
Good RTS players know that it takes a lot of focus and attention to perform well. What took up most of my attention in DOW II was consistently buying and using unique abilities and wargear at the right time during battles. Smaller armies help compensate this but what will happen if they grow larger? In DOW III, SEGA will likely have to drop a fair amount of these abilities or item procs in order to reduce what I call focus density and make the game playable.
I guess the real question is, if they make army sizes bigger how many kick-a$$ special abilities & wargear procs are we going to lose?
VI DLC’s & Additional Content
Currently SEGA has announced only 3 races. I hope they’ll be more than that out of the gate as after that, we should expect them to start what could be a long list of DLC’s given the 40K Universes near infinite variation of races and their chapters.
I think a good option would be to have micro transactions for special characters, skins, banners, wargear or even some races that we could pay for with money or with in game credits. I find the option works well in games like MTG Duels & LOL.
Gamers have come to expect this more and more from publishers but my point is, please don’t nickle and dime us to gain access to our favorite sci fi universe.
Also, if there is a 4th playable race out of the gate, let it be the best race in the 40K universe….Chaos Space Marines!
VI Regular/Combat Movement & Mechanics
So far, Movement of all units from Relic Games past (specifically in DOW II and Space Marine) has been spot on for how models should move, specifically how units move in power armor. It gives you the impression that despite having electrically motivated fibre bundles within the armour that replicates the wearer's movement you are still keenly aware of the armor’s incredible weight. You still see it in their gait, how each step lands and how the rest of the body responds. The physics of it almost makes it seem like it could be real and that’s how It would look should it ever be made. Please retain this movement mechanic in DOW III.
Squads move in a odd, mechanical manner that would at first look like how highly trained soldiers would move but it’s not at all organic or even realistic. Units should move as they did in COH II & DOW II, each model moving in a bit of a different way than the others, taking some cover while moving past a wall and so on. For an expansion on this issue, Arch Warhammer on youtube highlights it quite well in his DOW 3, E3 Gameplay, Information and impressions video.
Certain models move far too fast, specifically terminators. Tactical dreadnought armor is the most potent form of protection in the imperium and for those who are not familiar with their lore, imagine taping a tank to your chest and then trying to go for a run! I don’t think so!
The same issue comes with the ridiculous, Anime-like acrobatics of Gabriel Angelos (who is wearing terminator armor). The special attack’s he makes in the E3 gameplay video are completely out of reality (or fantasy in this matter!) and should be removed. Terminator armor barely allows the user to run (and at a slower pace than space marines) for very short lengths. With these limitations it is impossible to fathom a user in this armor being able to leap into the air or even jump at all for that matter.
No sync kills! (As of yet) sync kills are a hallmark of the DOW series and must be included in DOW III. They add a flavor to war that truly helps you take in and enjoy the whole experience. It makes fights seem more personal and really makes me go after certain units just to slay them in spectacular fashion. In DOW II I think of the dreadnaught-wraithlord sync kill when the wraithlord swings his sword for a telling blow and the dreadnought grabs it with his left hand, stopping the sword dead in place. He then reaches in with his right hand and crushes the wraithlords chest...Incredible!
VII Odd’s & Ends
Las Cannon’s have also been turned into some kind of focused beam that is channeled instead of harvested and released in every other 40k game known to mankind. This is an abomination. All weapons and armor should function as per their description in their respective codeces, wargear books and data slates...anything less pisses on the 40K universe and it’s fans and I am currently without an umbrella. Please fix these issues and I believe you can make the greatest DOW game ever known. Oh! And please use Gabriel’s voice actor from DOW II. He had a much more convincing voice that felt real. This one sounds like random drunk trying to talk like a pirate.
At 5:25 of the E3 Demo Video, you can over the vox casters the space marines saying “Plasma Team Ready”. If i’m not mistaken, you cannot outfit an entire squad of space marines with plasma weapons and doing so in the game seems like it could be a bit OP. It also seems like this could omitting a more exciting ranged specialist: The Sternguard.
Bezagron
I do agree saturation leans towards the lighter end of the spectrum but I also think some of this can be attributed to the ice environment which typically have an effect like this. We need to see how this artstyle looks & feels in a less saturated environment. Something other the ice & snow.
This weight people talk about in regards to animation has much to do with interaction with the environment & intermodel interaction. I would think these are more finishes & polish effects something to do after locking down gameplay.
Like without footprints models look like the float across terrain. Swinging sword in the air provides no weight of combat if all that happens is the foe is also just swinging theirs & not reacting to your model's swinging sword.
Add a heavy footprint that produces a small cloud can go a long way of providing more weight to the SM running animation. What I'm hoping is for unique melee combat animation for units when their fighting different unit types. I also hope in actually looking like there really fighting & reacting & not just swinging swords at each other.
Another aspect is the death ragdolling. At the moment it looks more like a block of ice that leaves a blood trail then a body. The bodies look like they're sliding across the ground not impacting into it. I like what I see but hope for more polish to come.
Bezagron
Spoil a good joke
Warnoise
No, we make shields with them.
Bezagron
Would umbrellas work better as it stormy.
Warnoise
You can't somersault with an open umbrella
Rismal
totally agree!
KharnTheBetrayer
So true. I'm not seeing much DoW3 fanboying here... Welp good knowing this thread and post, its gonna be locked by a moderator cause of it.
arno57
For me are the biggest issues, as mentioned in previous posts, the flashy and anime like game engine. For example, in the demo, where Gabriel uses his first skills, it does not feel like DoW, more like League of Legends, too much unnecessary moves with a lot of flashy colours. The previous DoW games had the grim and dark atmosphere, which are the characteristics for a war of survival. To be honest, DoW 2 graphics wise surpasses the current DoW 3 with ease.
The sync killing seems to have dissappeared altogether.
The size difference between units is too much off, Gabriel for example is a space marine in a terminator armor but considering his size, he might as well be a dreadnaught.These 3 issues are the main ones for me. The hype for DoW 3 has for me made a serious downfall with the demo walkthrough release.
Of course i agree with WARP_ENTITY's post 100%, he wrote a detailed cover, why and what is wrong with DoW 3 so far, the biggest issues. I sincerely hope, that the posts in this forum are going to be taken into consideration.
SeismicSquall
I dont think relic will pay too much attention unless there is a petition regarding these issues. Looks like the game is heavily invested into the current design/aesthetic. Sadly i dont think much will change as I dont think they can justify so much backpedaling from a financial standpoint. I think we already saw the best part of DOW3, which is the cinematic trailer. Maybe the final game will have more of those.
Dranu
Sync kills and a non-dancing non-ballerina Gabriel
Uberlettuce
I would love to research again, example: Unit champion upgrades power weapon -> Power fist, optionally having it set up like in dow2 for gear is alright i guess.
I have not see any info on research, if anyone has feel free to share.
greedogre
my concern is always forcus on muti-player aspect of the game, but with the content they show so far, i fear that developer havnt even work on muti-player or not pay enough attension on that part. they might have their Business model up, but defintly not muti-player. to bring a CoH2 commander system into a Dow1 like game is not a practical way of building a competitive multi-player game, there is no balance there, this is not about number changes, this is simply "bad", not if developer want us to use more than half of the unit in the faction rooster.
for example: 2 varent of preaditor tank, if las-cannon pread is half decent at killing infantry as the auto-cannon pread there will be no one to take auto-cannon pread, it is simply because in the frist half of the game your will be building up your anti-infantry firepower, there is no need to take a dedicate infantry killer in t3. ofc someone will say you can move auto-cannon pread to t2, but think about this the total number of the unit and elite unit, in ideal case you only need unit to fit specific role, and when they are more unit than roles, the lessing effiecient unit which fitting that role will become obsolet
i believe many will change when they start working on muti-player, my only hope is when that happens it will looks more like CoH2